Posted on 10/23/2008 4:20:20 AM PDT by peruban
A Case For Mary (A Catholic Apologist's Response)
Please forgive my boldness as I am a so-called “newb” here. I have lurked on these pages for many years and never posted but have been moved to do so after a recent thread. The thread concerned the commonly held notion that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is worshiped by some Christians.
Let’s now have an understanding. No one worships Mary. Let me repeat: no one worships Mary. This is a misunderstanding. It may appear as worship - especially in cultures where Christianity has replaced, or “conquered”, native pagan beliefs.
Doctrines or other Christian teachings have never supported this, or if they have they have done so fallaciously. Let’s be clear, there is but one God, only one. He revealed himself to Abraham, created spiritual nations of his children Isaac and Ishmael, and gave to us Gentiles the salvation of baptism which washes away the curse of original sin. The children of Abraham do not require baptism as they are Chosen.
So, back to Mary, the basic idea is that when we die – if we are “good” (let’s not pick apart the already digested Christianese) – we go to heaven, right? There are schools of thought that say we’re sent to heaven, purgatory, hell, or nowhere. If we get sent to nowhere we’re generally GOING to be judged for our actions somehow whether right away or on some distant judgment day, right?
Ok, so stay with me, if you believe that souls go to heaven and are with God then there is no reason why they can not be with us in our hearts just as we hold God in our hearts, they’re together after all, right? Do they not watch over us like the Angels themselves? How many times have you heard said that the dead watch over us like guardians or some other loving gesture?
So, just as we speak to those around us we can communicate with those in heaven. This is a sticking point with many anti-Mary or Protestant believers. We can communicate with those with God just as we do with God Himself. When we speak to those in heaven, we ask them to pray for us, just as we ask those around us to pray for us. You have obviously heard the expression “I’ll pray for you” or “Will you pray for me?”.
So, those of us who speak to Mary do not worship her. We ask her to pray for us. Can not those in heaven pray for us? Is not Mary surely in heaven?
Then let’s not be naïve or condescending, there is no intentional worship of Mary. That is not what is meant by veneration or “intercession”. We ask that someone who is most definitely in Heaven to have compassion on us and please pray on our behalf, assuming we pray to ourselves to begin with. That is all.
There may be many differing opinions now and throughout history concerning this matter but I can assure you that the prevailing spiritual understanding of this issue is basic and essential to just about all Christian faiths. I welcome dissentions on this.
The Catholic faith practices a gesture of ecumenicity, or unity of all Christians in brotherhood. We are all brothers in Christ, he did not mean for us to fight bitterly amongst ourselves for supremacy in faith.
So please, I ask humbly of all of you who call yourselves Christians, stop this infighting which poses to tear our faith apart into so many sects, and which has done so violently for so many hundreds and hundreds of years.
No one worships Mary. I pray that those who think we do see the light of their errors and join us in asking all those in heaven to pray for us as we are definitely in need of prayer.
Thank you all.
Sure, I hear it all the time. And I do it. But if someone asks me 50 times in one hour, I'll gently remind them to maybe adjust their ratio of prayers to the Father and prayers to others. Just saying.
Thanks for that, it was very well-done. As a Protestant considering Catholicism, it’s nice to have this clarity. Many Protestants need to hear this, and perhaps it will eliminate some of the Protestant/Catholic hostility and misunderstanding.
But some Catholics need to hear it as well, because some of them can get a bit carried away, and they speak and behave as if they are in fact worshiping Mary. They exacerbate the misunderstanding between the two faiths by doing so.
I thus understand the criticisms, and I used to hate them when I was Catholic.
I think the shift for me came when I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior when I was in 8 th grade, and realized that instead of the monotonous daily indulgences and pietas (it had gotten so robotic by this stage that I would often repeat them, having forgotten I had said a section) I realized I could go straight to Christ instead. And that I did not need to be complicated before him, or use obtuse words, or be anything else but myself. And that when he died for me on that cross it was, as He said, finished.
That was a far better deal than an hour of pieta mantras.
Apologist? For what? Being Catholic? Ridiculous.
...How many times have you heard said that the dead watch over us like guardians or some other loving gesture?
If indeed they “were watching over us”, there must be a lot of wailing given the world we live in today. So it seems to me the above statement contradicts Rev 21:4... “There will be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain in heaven.”
Apologetics is the art of explaining Catholic dogma and theology in such a way so as to not offend the listener, and teach factual information at the same time. An apologist is one who practices that art. Those of us who grew up in the post-VatII years had to learn how to be apologists on our own. And it's like anything else, some people are better at it than others.
A little presumptuous to speak for EVERYONE, isn't it?
Well, as a practicing, fairly devout Catholic, all Catholics I know accept Christ as our savior. His mother has a very special place in our hearts and in her ultimate example of humility demonstrated for us what it means to submit to God's will. And for that reason, we respect and venerate her as a mother figure with all the trappings and characteristics of a mother including loving her children and adding weight to our requests when they are taken to the Father. Simply asking her to pray for us when a problem presents itself is not denying Christ as savior, king, prince of peace or any other of the myriad of titles given Him in the litany. Putting trust is Mary to pray for us to the Father is no different than asking our own mothers to pray.
I will say that at some point or another, we all find ourselves simply "going through the motions". I was not assisting at Mass very well, or at all. No concentration, just doing the job I had in the parish (cantor and choir member). So, I took steps and started going to Mass a second time in a weekend only to find much more orthodox and meaningful sermons at other parishes. It started a journey back to doing all the little things that make cultural Catholicism such a target when people don't understand or know the underlying theology. I didn't even know it and had to learn. It has brought me great peace and in more than one case, really putting my trust in God that things would work out when I took a leap of faith.
It's all very personal and so long as the core, underlying beliefs are there, practically designing your own devotional program is absolutely possible. I'm working on the Sacred Heart myself. This has been a tough one to get to know.
Please, just remember that the acceptance of Christ as savior is central to Catholicism. Without Christ there would be no Church, but His mother is just that - our spiritual mom.
I know the word. I believe that it is unnecessary. Practice your faith and as for those who attack it (there are many here) let them think what they will.
I grew up Catholic and am now Lutheran. A lot of Catholics I knew back in Texas did (and do) worship Mary in every sense of the word. Once I started taking “Lutheran lessons” and reading the Bible for myself, I saw her role in context with that of Paul, Peter and the others - and it was a surprise compared to what I had been taught and had seen in practice.
Well, since we are all called to evangelize, we can't or shouldn't. And misinformation needs to be corrected. As a student of public relations and having left that field due to the way it is practiced, I will stand by correcting misinformation any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I’m curious - what is her role in that context you speak of?
“No one worships Mary. Let me repeat: no one worships Mary.”
A little presumptuous to speak for EVERYONE, isn’t it?”
Not according to some anti-Catholics on FR who insist that Catholics worship Mary. They’ve tarred Catholics as idolators.
Period.
We don’t worship a fellow creature. She’s the Mother of God. I also like to talk over my kids’ problems with her. She’s had a lot of experience. ~Much more painful than mine.
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I missed the zot! First and last post w/in an hour.
Is there a reason the poster was banned? I can’t see what the problem is with anything on this thread, it’s fairly mild by Religion Forum standards.
RC dogma speaks of Mary as the “Co-redemptrix” (co-redeemer). That sounds worshipful to me.
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