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Is evolution fact?
http://www.rbc.org/devotionals/our-daily-bread/2005/08/04/devotion.aspx ^

Posted on 12/14/2008 8:37:32 AM PST by tpanther

Strength For The Journey New Creation People Part 1 August 4, 2005 Is Evolution A Fact?

READ: Genesis 2:1-7, Hebrews 11:1-3

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. —Hebrews 11:3The theory of evolution is not without its problems. One scientist says this about life starting on its own: "Amino acids would have to be arranged in an exact sequence to form a protein . . . just like the letters in a sentence. Mere laws of chemistry and physics cannot do that. The probability of a protein forming by chance would be 1064 [10 with 64 zeros after it] to 1!"

Many people assume the theory of evolution to be true. But can it be scientifically proven? Something is considered scientifically true only if it can be repeatedly verified under laboratory conditions. The claim that life sprang up on its own out of a long impersonal process cannot pass this test of truth. That is why evolution remains only a theory.

So if you're ever tempted to doubt the Genesis account of the creation story, consider the alternative. The odds against even a simple protein creating itself are astronomical. How much more reasonable to believe God and His Word: "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible" (Hebrews 11:3).

Isn't it more reasonable to believe that God designed and created the universe? (Genesis 1:1). — Dennis Fisher

All things bright and beautiful, All creatures great and small, All things wise and wonderful— The Lord God made them all. —Alexander

All creation points to the almighty Creator.


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: evolution
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To: Vaquero

If he decides he wants to use evolution as his method, who are we to argue with his intentions.


"Christian evolutionists" still argue (or, at least, allow) that evolution could be God's method of creation.
Let's see if there are verses that might shed light on how fast GOD works.....

Isa 48:3 ... I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of My mouth, and I shewed them; I did [them] SUDDENLY, and they came to pass.

Indeed!!

Genesis 1
1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3. And God
said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

 

This is a GOD who creates by speaking; but; how LONG did it take?

 

Now Jesus was a man who had God-like powers. Was HE God? The Book says so.......

NIV Colossians 1:13-17
13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

NIV Revelation 4:11
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

NIV Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

 

Notice that when this man speaks, things happen RIGHT NOW! Not after some times passes and Nature takes it's course.

NIV Matthew 8:2-3
2. A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean."
3. Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy.

NIV Matthew 21:19
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.

NIV Mark 1:41-42
41. Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!"
42. Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

NIV Mark 5:41-42
41. He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!").
42. Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished.

NIV Mark 10:51-52
51. "What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."
52. "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

NIV Luke 5:13
Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" And Immediately the leprosy left him.

NIV Luke 5:24-25
24. But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."
25. Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.

NIV Luke 8:44
She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and Immediately her bleeding stopped.

NIV Luke 13:12-13
12. When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity."
13. Then he put his hands on her, and Immediately she straightened up and praised God.

NIV Luke 18:42-43
42. Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."
43. Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus, praising God. When all the people saw it, they also praised God.

NIV Acts 9:33-35
33. There he found a man named Aeneas, a paralytic who had been bedridden for eight years.
34. "Aeneas," Peter said to him, "Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and take care of your mat." Immediately Aeneas got up.
35. All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord.

NIV Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

NIV Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

 

Now if this same personage, who does things in an instant; how LONG would it take Him to CREATE all that we find around us???


101 posted on 12/15/2008 4:29:10 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Coyoteman
(Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)

(Scientific belief does not constitute religious evidence, nor does it convey religious knowledge.)

102 posted on 12/15/2008 4:30:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: raybbr

You remove all the fun out of the give and take! ;^)


103 posted on 12/15/2008 4:31:24 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
You remove all the fun out of the give and take! ;^)

Yeah, I know. I have debated on these threads and it boils down to what I posted. ;^)

God Bless

104 posted on 12/15/2008 4:32:48 AM PST by raybbr (It's going to get a lot worse now that the anchor babies are voting!)
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To: Buck W.
Evolution is completely and fully compatible with Christianity.

We might listen, if you can point to some data that would support what you so boldly state.

105 posted on 12/15/2008 4:33:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jwalsh07
God creates, His creations evolve.

An elegant solution.

Except for the fact that GOD would have not needed to 'create' anything then.


Elephant in the room:

We CANNOT believe what mere men have WRITTEN about THEIR 'ideas' about GOD; we can ONLY trust the RECORD.

106 posted on 12/15/2008 4:35:40 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: fproy2222
Isn't that the story where the spirits of the dead Martians sent the spirit of the dead Earthlings back to earth so they could be reincarnated?

Dead Kolobians...


Here is a fellow with a PHD - MUST be a 'scientist'!

http://hickmanmuseum.homestead.com/THE_KOLOB_THEOREM.pdf

107 posted on 12/15/2008 4:38:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RightWhale; tpanther
Ad hominem fallacy

Translation: no

108 posted on 12/15/2008 4:38:45 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: mjp
Theistic evolutionism severely undermines the Christian understanding of God and man's place in his universe.
 
Ya THINK!?
 

 

Most Christians 'believe' Evolution because they do NOT know what their Bible says.

If, as they say, they 'believe' the words of Jesus and the New Testament writers,

they have to decide what the following verses mean:

Acts 17:26-27
26. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
27. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Romans 5:12-21
12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If there were no one man, that means SIN did NOT enter the World thru him.

If Adam was NOT the one man, that means SPIRITUAL DEATH did not come thru him.

If SIN did NOT enter the World thru the one man, that means Jesus does not save from SIN.

Are we to believe that the one man is symbolic? Does that mean Jesus is symbolic as well?

The Theory of Evolution states that there WAS no one man, but a wide population that managed to inherit that last mutated gene that makes MEN different from APES.

Acts 17:24-26

24. "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
25. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.
26.
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

Was LUKE wrong about this?

 

1 Corinthians 11:8-9
8. For
man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9. neither was man
created for woman, but woman for man.

1 Timothy 2:13
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.


Was Paul
WRONG about these???

 

If so, is GOD so puny that He allows this 'inaccuracy' in His Word??



And THIS verse is completely against E!!!

NIV Genesis 2:18
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

109 posted on 12/15/2008 4:41:58 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Fichori
 
Besides, Rev. Darwin would have a cow if he ever heard that people had turned his purely undirected naturalistic process into a God directed process.
 
 
(Maybe he'll RETURN as a cow!)

 
His own words...
 
 

 

Charles Darwin (1809-1882)

"By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported,—and that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become,—that the men at that time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible by us,—that the Gospels cannot be proven to have been written simultaneously with the events,—that they differ in many important details, far too important, as it seemed to me to be admitted as the usual inaccuracies of eye witnesses;—by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least novelty or value, but as they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation. The fact that many fake religions have spread over large portions of the earth like wildfire had some weight with me. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."

( Charles Darwin in his Autobiography of Charles Darwin, Dover Publications, 1992, p. 62. )


Charles Darwin (1809-1882)

"I think that generally (& more & more as I grow older), but not always, that an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind."

( Quoted from Adrian Desmond and James Moore, Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1991, p. 636. )

 
 
 
 

NIV 1 Timothy 1:20-21
 20.  Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
 21.  which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.   Grace be with you.

 
NIV Proverbs 4:13
   Hold on to instruction, do not let it go; guard it well, for it is your life.
 

NIV Hebrews 3:6
   But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
 

NIV Hebrews 3:14
   We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
 

NIV Hebrews 6:11
   We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
 
 
NIV Hebrews 12:3
   Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
 
 
NIV 2 Timothy 2:11-13
 11.  Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
 12.  if we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us;
 13.  if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
 

NIV 2 Peter 2:20-21
 20.  If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
 21.  It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
 
 
 
NIV 2 John 1:8
  Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
 

NIV Jude 1:21
   Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
 

NIV Revelation 2:25
   Only hold on to what you have until I come.
 

NIV Revelation 3:11
   I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


110 posted on 12/15/2008 4:43:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Comment #111 Removed by Moderator

Comment #112 Removed by Moderator

Comment #113 Removed by Moderator

Comment #114 Removed by Moderator

To: fproy2222
I do not believe in evolution from one species to another.

Now HERE is a belief I can agree with!

115 posted on 12/15/2008 4:51:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: The_Reader_David
I remind all of the Christians on this thread that God, through His prophet, has said "My ways are not thy ways."

I remind all the lurkers that 'His prophet' means MANY different things to folks on FR!

116 posted on 12/15/2008 4:52:19 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
What did the first cell evolve from then?

No KNOW we avoid that question (and others like it) like the third rail in the train track!

--EvoDude(My uncle want no MONKEY!)

117 posted on 12/15/2008 4:54:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
What did the first cell evolve from then?

YOU KNOW we avoid that question (and others like it) like the third rail in the train track!

--EvoDude(My uncle want no MONKEY!)

118 posted on 12/15/2008 4:54:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: fproy2222
I know a lot of folks who do not want to live God's laws, so they push evolution. It gives them “proof” that God is false and that they do not need to follow His laws.
 

The Law justifies no one.
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law," (Rom. 3:20).
The Law makes no concessions; it makes demands.
"Cursed is every man who does not abide by everything written in the book of the law to perform them," (Gal. 3:10).

119 posted on 12/15/2008 4:58:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alex Murphy
Corn dogs evolved from pigs!

But then why are they still HERE!?

As fast as they are found in Nature, humans eat them, leaving NO time for them to reproduce!

120 posted on 12/15/2008 5:00:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Gumlegs

LOL!


121 posted on 12/15/2008 5:09:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I dont take all of the bible as cannon. You do.


122 posted on 12/15/2008 5:10:39 AM PST by Vaquero ( "an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: tpanther
Except of course what several SCIENTISTS say is scientific evidence that contradicts evolution.

What's fun is when 'scientific' evidence CONTRADICTS other 'scientific' evidence!!

THEN the fur flys!

123 posted on 12/15/2008 5:11:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Coyoteman
These mathematical projections are useless if the factors are not correctly modeled.

All righty then!

124 posted on 12/15/2008 5:12:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Coyoteman
Please stop stalking me. That is against the forum rules.

What we need are FR Restraining Orders!


I am NOW in THIS thread; THEREFORE you have no RIGHT to be here, too!

125 posted on 12/15/2008 5:13:32 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Physicist; Fichori
"Faith" to me means "acceptance in the abscence of any evidence, and even in spite of evidence to the contrary". In that sense, my considerations are not at all rooted in faith.

Except that that is not the only definition of faith.

faith 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Even faith in the Bible isn't required to be blind belief in something for which there is no evidence. Jesus demonstrated over and over who He was by His actions and words. God doesn't expect us to believe something for no reason.

Acts 1:1-3 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

126 posted on 12/15/2008 5:14:11 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Religion Moderator
The post at 17 was not stalking, it was however taking a dispute from thread-to-thread and therefore was removed.

But, if the threads are identical similar in content, cannot similar arguments be made in them?

127 posted on 12/15/2008 5:15:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Bellflower

More correctly, there is no scientific evidence that is allowed to contradict the ToE.

It’s either dismissed as *not scientific*, doesn’t pass the peer review system, or, likely as not, buried.


128 posted on 12/15/2008 5:16:55 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Vaquero
I dont take all of the bible as cannon. You do.

I do not have the expertise to be able to decide which parts to throw out.

129 posted on 12/15/2008 5:19:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
I am NOW in THIS thread; THEREFORE you have no RIGHT to be here, too!

That's correct. It's another display of the arrogance of evolutionists. They are, in their own minds, towering science-talking deities. How dare someone contradict a science-talking deity? But if you do, and if you prod them a little, and offer them some resistance, they quickly descend into whining about injustices, personal offences, and so on. It's really quite pathetic.

130 posted on 12/15/2008 5:26:18 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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To: metmom
Except that that is not the only definition of faith.

The science-talking deity will insist that you adopt his definition of faith, of course.

131 posted on 12/15/2008 5:27:43 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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To: Elsie
Great post.

Here is a commentary by a believer, C Clough, with a doctorate in the sciences from MIT.

The religious neutrality theory says that whether or not the God of the Bible exists and has created the universe is not important to whatever the subject at hand. This statement, it turns out, makes the not-so-hidden, not-so-neutral claim that God could not be the Creator.

First, it denies that He could have any fundamental role in structuring the universe (if He did, then He would obviously be important to the subject at hand). Second, it insists that each object in the universe does not bear testimony to Him (otherwise, He would be present in every subject). Third, it elevates above God an ethical standard that justifies ignoring His Presence (we "ought" to think this way andnot another way)...

...

In the Genesis text, however, God is wholly separate from the universe. He is prior to all things. All else originates from Him. They come into existence, not by transformation from His Being, but by His spoken Word they come into existence from nothing (creatio ex-nihilo). There is thus an absolute, transcendental distinction between the Creator and all else. Over against the Bible's Creator-creature distinction, paganism insists upon the unity of creator(s) and creations.

Gods, men, animals, and rocks are all part of the same existence or being. This is the doctrine of the Chain of Being or Continuity of Being, a doctrine you will find lurking in all forms of paganism from ancient times through New Testament times (where it was related to the Gnostic heresy) to modern cosmic evolution. It is spiritual poison.

In the above descriptions, C Clough reminds us of a distinction inherent in the acceptance of God and the acceptance of evolution. The evolutionist appeal to science begs the question of our origins by first presuming our identity. It only perceives man as being of body and soul in his anthropology.

God created all things and human life with body, soul, and spirit. Sceince ignores the spiritual domain. At best it attempts to assume the human spirit is merely a complex functional of the psyche or mind as part of the soul, but this isn't what is revealed to us in Scripture.

Since the regenerated human spirit is only given to believers, and many still function with scarred souls, easily lapsing back into worldly persectives, only thinking in terms of body and soul, the 'scientific' argument is a fabulous ploy to deceive man from advancing in the spiritual life.

Instead, God has provided body, soul, and spirit for man to function by His Plan. This doesn't remove reason or logic, instead it allows reason and logic to be buttressed by the reality of spiritual perception, provided in faith through Him.

132 posted on 12/15/2008 5:30:40 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: tpanther

I’m hoping this question belongs in this forum....if not, I’m sure someone will let me know

I’ve always had a curious fascination with the fall of Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels who rebelled against the authority of God. Obviously this happened before Eve was tempted by Satan, but when did it happen? Are there any clues in the Bible explaining it?

Of course, I know about the ‘gap theory’ but I dont’ know if that is a widely accepted view, or if there is really any validity to it anyway?

Comments?


133 posted on 12/15/2008 5:34:19 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: Elsie
I do not have the expertise to be able to decide which parts to throw out.

neither do I. I do know that there were a whole slew of Gospels back in the day. The church (I am assuming the early Roman Church) edited down the Gospels to only those by the 4. I read there was a Gospel of Judas, if you can believe that.

I don't know what is the true bible. I believe Jesus is the messiah...I follow his moral teachings...after that I just don't know.

134 posted on 12/15/2008 5:44:50 AM PST by Vaquero ( "an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: metmom
It’s either dismissed as *not scientific*, doesn’t pass the peer review system, or, likely as not, buried.

Nah: it get's morphed into the Continuum - ala the Borg - to be used for the Greater Good.

How can you resist assimilation?

135 posted on 12/15/2008 5:46:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vaquero
I believe Jesus is the messiah...I follow his moral teachings...after that I just don't know.

There are a lot of things I don't 'know' either.

Since what I 'know' about Jesus COMES from the book these early church folks assembled from various writings, and what I 'believe' about Him also comes from the same book, I must, to be consistant, also 'believe' whatever else I find there.

True, there are many things that seem to require 'interpretation', but study of the subject can move many from the Belief column to the Knowledge column.

136 posted on 12/15/2008 5:50:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cvengr

Good post. Are you Orthodox?


137 posted on 12/15/2008 5:58:49 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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To: SoftballMominVA
Are there any clues in the Bible explaining it?

Not in much detail.

I'd say in falls into the "GOD spoke and things happened" category: take it on faith.

Here are scripture that scholars think are describing Satan, while speaking of the king of Tyre...

 

Ezekiel 28
 
 1.  The word of the LORD came to me:
 2.  "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.
 3.  Are you wiser than Daniel ? Is no secret hidden from you?
 4.  By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself and amassed gold and silver in your treasuries.
 5.  By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth, and because of your wealth your heart has grown proud.
 6.  "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`Because you think you are wise, as wise as a god,
 7.  I am going to bring foreigners against you, the most ruthless of nations; they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom and pierce your shining splendor.
 8.  They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die a violent death in the heart of the seas.
 9.  Will you then say, "I am a god," in the presence of those who kill you? You will be but a man, not a god, in the hands of those who slay you.
 10.  You will die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners. I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
 11.  The word of the LORD came to me:
 12.  "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
 13.  You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire,  turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings  were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.
 14.  You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
 15.  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
 16.  Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
 17.  Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
 18.  By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.
 19.  All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.'"
 20.  The word of the LORD came to me:
 21.  "Son of man, set your face against Sidon; prophesy against her
 22.  and say: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`I am against you, O Sidon, and I will gain glory within you. They will know that I am the LORD, when I inflict punishment on her and show myself holy within her.
 23.  I will send a plague upon her and make blood flow in her streets. The slain will fall within her, with the sword against her on every side. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
 24.  "`No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
 25.  "`This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob.
 26.  They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.'"
 
And here you have a description of war in heaven, but the timeline seems to be parenthetical:
 
Revelation 12
 
 1.  A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
 2.  She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
 3.  Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
 4.  His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
 5.  She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
 6.  The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
 7.  And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
 8.  But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
 9.  The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 
 10.  Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
 11.  They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
 12.  Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
 13.  When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
 14.  The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
 15.  Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
 16.  But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
 17.  Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

138 posted on 12/15/2008 6:09:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Fichori

Thank you.


139 posted on 12/15/2008 6:34:22 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode

Through faith in Christ and fellowship with Him I have assurance of being rightly faithed.


140 posted on 12/15/2008 6:39:32 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Elsie

You’re confusing Christianity with a fundamentalist, literal reading of the Bible. It is entirely consistent with Christianity that God chose evolution, or something similar, as his creation method. Did God create man? Sure. How did he do it? We don’t know, but He gave us the brains to figure it out. He’d be disappointed if we didn’t try.

Oh, and there is absolutely no physical evidence of young-earth creation, but the evidence for the alternative abounds.


141 posted on 12/15/2008 6:48:39 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: SoftballMominVA

IMHO, there are many aspects of Gap Theory, which are consistent with ancient history, Euhemerism, and Scriptural timelines, however, the same might be said for many heresies.

Insofar as one interprets the Gap theory based upon Scripture, there may be some sound conclusions, but one has to be careful not to begin interpreting Scripture based upon Gap Theory. Many aspects of it are extrabiblical and some devious systems might be involved either in its formation, or how it begins to lead us to think.

Here is another interesting position. Since the fallen angels are associated with the 1/3 who followed the Adversary, and the remainder are associated as ‘elect angels’, perhaps all angels sinned and 2/3s were also saved, hence elect. Nothing is written in Scripture, that I am aware of, to suggest the elect angels had sinned, but then again, there is a class of angels who are not fallen, but described as “elect”. What are they ‘elect’ from?


142 posted on 12/15/2008 6:50:24 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: fabian

There is absolutely no physical evidence of young-earth creation, but evidence for the alternative abounds.


143 posted on 12/15/2008 6:50:58 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: tpanther
I would tend to think if nature and time are the basis of evolution, then would it not make since that all things would be self replicating?

By this I mean would it not make sense for the survival of all species that they be dependent upon themselves for reproduction.

How and why did nature decide that it would or could take the chance for two to reproduce? This seems to be quite risk for a organism to survive.

144 posted on 12/15/2008 6:54:22 AM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: Cvengr; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

Ping to post 132


145 posted on 12/15/2008 7:57:20 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Fichori
On "open" threads in the Religion Forum, posters may attribute motives and/or read the minds of an entire group of believers. For instance, he might say that [pick a confession] only say [blah] because [whatever.]

But when the poster turns to an individual Freeper and makes that kind of remark about him - e.g. you only say [blah] because [whatever.] - it is personal and therefore, not allowed even on "open" threads.

146 posted on 12/15/2008 7:58:41 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: SoftballMominVA; Elsie

You can always count on Elsie to Scripture references to anything.

As far as the Gap theory, what I’ve been told by someone who knows Hebrew is that there is a change in tense between the first two verses in Genesis. The first verse is that the universe was created, as in the creation of something new.

The second verse indicates a remaking of the earth, making it habitable for humans and life. Apparently the verb means that the earth became formless and void. The thinking is that there is no knowing what the time frame is between the first and second verses.

Not knowing Hebrew myself, I honestly have never investigated that.

Other people disagree with that interpretation.

The thing that makes it all so difficult is that there are Bible scholars who take both positions and present good cases for their side.


147 posted on 12/15/2008 8:02:29 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Elsie
How can you resist assimilation?

Because I'm stubborn and independent minded.

Heck, I was able to resist the public school system and homeschool the kids when homeschooling wasn't very popular.

I've had practice.

148 posted on 12/15/2008 8:04:12 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Elsie; SoftballMominVA
Ezekial 28:17. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

This is the verse my friend says some speculate is what happened between verses 1 & 2 of Genesis 1.

149 posted on 12/15/2008 8:07:35 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: valkyry1; Fichori; Robwin
For some, science is their most cherished belief, their religion.

Atheism, scientism and agnostism is somewhat tolerated on the Religion Forum. After all, they are the primary audience for many preachers, priests and missionaries who post here.

However, this is a Religion Forum and if the moderators conclude the sum of a poster's posting history is to defeat religion per se he may be declared a troll and banished from the RF altogether. It has happened before and can happen again.

150 posted on 12/15/2008 8:07:44 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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