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Is evolution fact?
http://www.rbc.org/devotionals/our-daily-bread/2005/08/04/devotion.aspx ^

Posted on 12/14/2008 8:37:32 AM PST by tpanther

Strength For The Journey New Creation People Part 1 August 4, 2005 Is Evolution A Fact?

READ: Genesis 2:1-7, Hebrews 11:1-3

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. —Hebrews 11:3The theory of evolution is not without its problems. One scientist says this about life starting on its own: "Amino acids would have to be arranged in an exact sequence to form a protein . . . just like the letters in a sentence. Mere laws of chemistry and physics cannot do that. The probability of a protein forming by chance would be 1064 [10 with 64 zeros after it] to 1!"

Many people assume the theory of evolution to be true. But can it be scientifically proven? Something is considered scientifically true only if it can be repeatedly verified under laboratory conditions. The claim that life sprang up on its own out of a long impersonal process cannot pass this test of truth. That is why evolution remains only a theory.

So if you're ever tempted to doubt the Genesis account of the creation story, consider the alternative. The odds against even a simple protein creating itself are astronomical. How much more reasonable to believe God and His Word: "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible" (Hebrews 11:3).

Isn't it more reasonable to believe that God designed and created the universe? (Genesis 1:1). — Dennis Fisher

All things bright and beautiful, All creatures great and small, All things wise and wonderful— The Lord God made them all. —Alexander

All creation points to the almighty Creator.


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: evolution
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To: Buck W.
It is entirely consistent with Christianity that God chose evolution, or something similar, as his creation method.

Variation within species is entirely consistent with God's creation and method of propagation of the species.

The problem is when the natural variation we see is extrapolated into species to species evolution, whether you call it speciation, or macro-evolution.

God goes to the trouble of explaining to us that the different groups of animals were created in different creation events, that man was created from the dust of the earth and that woman was created from man's rib. He makes the effort to tell us as much as possible, (and reasonable) so that we can be sure that not only did He do the creating, but that he did NOT evolve us from another creature.

151 posted on 12/15/2008 8:13:28 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Elsie
Similar arguments can be made on similar threads. Rebuttal arguments can be cut and pasted from thread to thread.

But taking the same challenge to the same poster from thread to thread without provocation is clearly making it personal and a flame war. That is not tolerable even on "open" threads in the Religion Forum.

152 posted on 12/15/2008 8:14:04 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: tpanther

Sometimes....


153 posted on 12/15/2008 8:15:02 AM PST by onedoug
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To: fproy2222

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


154 posted on 12/15/2008 8:19:41 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom

“God goes to the trouble of explaining to us that the different groups of animals were created in different creation events, that man was created from the dust of the earth and that woman was created from man’s rib. He makes the effort to tell us as much as possible, (and reasonable) so that we can be sure that not only did He do the creating, but that he did NOT evolve us from another creature.”

I said that evolution is entirely consistent with Christianity, not with a literal reading of the Bible. If you believe that the Bible is factual, word-for-word, then you cannot accept anything else. It’s also not science. In my opinion, God would be sorely disappointed if we didn’t use the minds that he gave us to understand his process.


155 posted on 12/15/2008 8:29:10 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: metmom

Thanks for the ping!


156 posted on 12/15/2008 8:32:58 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cvengr

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, dear Cvengr!


157 posted on 12/15/2008 8:34:15 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Buck W.

I don’t know about the young earth thing...but I do know about the massive holes in evolution theory.


158 posted on 12/15/2008 8:34:41 AM PST by fabian
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To: fabian

Sure there are holes. Are you suggesting that there are no holes in the biblical account of creation?


159 posted on 12/15/2008 9:29:52 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: Buck W.
It is entirely consistent with Christianity that God chose evolution, or something similar, as his creation method.

Show your NON-verses to prove it.

160 posted on 12/15/2008 10:17:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: guitarplayer1953
This seems to be quite risk for a organism to survive.

Indeed!

Who cares what the chances are for LIFE to arrive by chance, random selection or Space Aliens - it's what are the odds that cell critters decided to quit DYING and start SPLITTING!

161 posted on 12/15/2008 10:20:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
You can always count on Elsie to Scripture references to anything.

I blame it on that Timothy fellow!

2 Tim 4:2

162 posted on 12/15/2008 10:21:40 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
I've had practice.

We have time...


163 posted on 12/15/2008 10:24:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Religion Moderator
But taking the same challenge to the same poster from thread to thread without provocation is clearly making it personal and a flame war. That is not tolerable even on "open" threads in the Religion Forum.

Thanks!

I'll keep a sharp eye out for THIS!

164 posted on 12/15/2008 10:25:48 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Buck W.
If you believe that the Bible is factual, word-for-word, then you cannot accept anything else.

If someone fails to recognize allegory, metaphor, simile and poetry in Scripture, they miss out on a lot of TRUTH.

165 posted on 12/15/2008 10:27:54 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SoftballMominVA

Great point. The truth is we just don’t know that timeline. I often wonder if a thing such as time even existed then.


166 posted on 12/15/2008 10:33:36 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Elsie

“If someone fails to recognize allegory, metaphor, simile and poetry in Scripture, they miss out on a lot of TRUTH.”

Precisely! Therefore, it is not a literally inerrant document. Divinely inspired, yes, but not, in general, literally true. Creation may in fact have been brought to its current state through a mechanism such as evolution. That assertion is not contradictory to your own representation of the Bible as largely symbolic.


167 posted on 12/15/2008 10:45:07 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: Religion Moderator
“On "open" threads in the Religion Forum, posters may attribute motives and/or read the minds of an entire group of believers.” [excerpt]
Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying!
(I learned something new today!)
168 posted on 12/15/2008 11:02:14 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: Elsie; metmom
What did the first cell evolve from then?

We dont know, and we may never know. It's irrelevant to the TOE, since the TOE does not deal with the origins of the first lifeforms.

169 posted on 12/15/2008 11:13:25 AM PST by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: Dutchboy88

Welcome ;-)


170 posted on 12/15/2008 11:50:12 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: Buck W.
I didn't say anything about a LITERAL reading of the whole Bible. Please show me ONE group that demands that every word in the Bible be taken literally, word for word. Everyone recognizes poetry, analogy, parable, song, etc.

When somewhere in the Bible the statement is made that *God did such and such*, it doesn't take much of a stretch to think that it means what it says. That is not taking the whole Bible literally, but it is the common sense reading of that particular passage.

It does take a stretch to try to force it to mean things that it did not say or imply.

Why is it either/or with you guys? Someone comments on a common sense reading and they're labeled a *Bible literalist*. Sheesh.

Evolution is NOT consistent with the Bible and a common sense reading of the passage- Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

As far as evolution being consistent with Christianity, then perhaps you could explain why it is that Christ Himself repeatedly refers to the creation of man, male and female He [God] created them?

If it comes down to believing men or Christ, guess who gets my vote?

171 posted on 12/15/2008 12:28:44 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Buck W.; Elsie

And what does *literally inerrant* mean?

Why do evos keep making up terms and then forcing their definitions on everyone?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literal%5B1%5D
Main Entry: lit·er·al

1 a: according with the letter of the scriptures b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual *liberty in the literal sense is impossible — B. N. Cardozo* c: free from exaggeration or embellishment *the literal truth* d: characterized by a concern mainly with facts *a very literal man*

2: of, relating to, or expressed in letters

3: reproduced word for word : exact , verbatim *a literal translation*

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inerrant
Main Entry: in·er·rant
: free from error

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth
Main Entry: truth

1 a archaic : fidelity , constancy b: sincerity in action, character, and utterance

2 a (1): the state of being the case : fact (2): the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3)often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b: a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true *truths of thermodynamics* c: the body of true statements and propositions

3 a: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality bchiefly British : true 2 c: fidelity to an original or to a standard

To say that something is the *literal truth* is to say that it’s “free from exaggeration or embellishment”. It does NOT mean that it must be taken as word for word. The Bible is true and inerrant, but to claim that people take every word as literal in the sense evos mean, doesn’t work.

Trying force someone into a non-existent framework of interpretation and then saying, *See, it doesn’t work* is disingenuous.


172 posted on 12/15/2008 12:44:31 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Just out of curiosity, how old do you think the Earth is?


173 posted on 12/15/2008 12:49:59 PM PST by Bosh Flimshaw
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To: Citizen Blade; Elsie

If it deals with the evolution of a species, then it is completely relevant.

The first cell evolved from what?

Darwin published *The Origin of the Species.* That bacterium was a species, was it not?


174 posted on 12/15/2008 12:50:30 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Bosh Flimshaw

I don’t know. I think it’s older than 6,000 years, but am not sure that it’s the billions that scientists say.

They have rightly pointed out that if a change in conditions occurred like is mentioned in Genesis, then it would mess up their calculations and make them meaningless.

There is also this:
The Age of the Universe
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1576941/posts

and the indication from Scripture that God created the universe pretty much as is so that it would be inhabitable.


175 posted on 12/15/2008 12:54:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
If it deals with the evolution of a species, then it is completely relevant.

There are several hypotheses out there on the origins of life. Some seem more plausible than others. But any of them could be true, or none, and that would make no difference to the TOE.

The first cell evolved from what?

We don't know.

Darwin published *The Origin of the Species.* That bacterium was a species, was it not?

The Origiin of Species never attempted to cover abiogenesis. Rather, it only dealt with changes in already-existing life.

176 posted on 12/15/2008 12:58:53 PM PST by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: metmom

So do you think the modern cosmology is as erroneous as modern biology?


177 posted on 12/15/2008 12:59:54 PM PST by Bosh Flimshaw
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To: metmom

It’s not “either/or”; it’s “what/how”. The bible says God created man—that’s the “what”. It doesn’t say “how” (and, no, I don’t accept the breathing of life into man’s nostrils as a literal “how”. That is a figurative statement.). “How” is the question that God has given us the smarts to figure out for ourselves. Although flawed, the Darwinism or one of its many derivatives comes awfully close to explaining the evidence that God has left behind.


178 posted on 12/15/2008 1:10:32 PM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: Buck W.

Let’s not be tempted by evidence now. It’s a Trap!


179 posted on 12/15/2008 1:12:15 PM PST by js1138
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To: metmom

“Literal Inerrancy” is exactly the foundation upon which Creationinsts base their steadfast refusal to consider anything other than the literal Genesis account of creation. It can also be found to manifest itself in the creationists’s insistence on posting scripture and dictionary definitions of obvious terms(including all subordinate usages of the term).


180 posted on 12/15/2008 1:16:08 PM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: Buck W.

(If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)


181 posted on 12/15/2008 2:12:28 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Yes! Now, can you name the source of the quote?


182 posted on 12/15/2008 2:20:57 PM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: Elsie

thanks, looks good, will read


183 posted on 12/15/2008 2:28:24 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: Elsie
The Law justifies no one.
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law,” (Rom. 3:20).

The Law makes no concessions; it makes demands.

“Cursed is every man who does not abide by everything written in the book of the law to perform them,” (Gal. 3:10).

++

For one thing, the works, involved with God's laws to man, make it easer for folks to get along and work together in positive, benefictual manner.

184 posted on 12/15/2008 2:34:36 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: metmom

I don’t know. I think it’s older than 6,000 years, but am not sure that it’s the billions that scientists say.

++

I thought the 6000 years was just the part of the earth’s age since Adam and Eve left the garden.


185 posted on 12/15/2008 2:42:25 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: Religion Moderator

Thanks for reminding me.

You must have one of the hardest Moderator jobs.


186 posted on 12/15/2008 2:44:16 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: Elsie
Except for the fact that GOD would have not needed to 'create' anything then.

God didn't need to create anything. Why and how God does the things He does is outside my scope of knowledge. But my view of God is that He gave us a great gift when he gave us free will and a fine set of laws to live our lives by.

My view is that He gave the Universe a set of laws to live by as well and while He was at it He programmed in an ability to adapt and change.

Have no idea how God does that but have a deep and abiding faith that He did.

I believe the first line of Genesis is the absolute truth and I'm content with that.

I also believe that materialists will climb the mountain of knowledge and find guys like St Thomas and Maimonides sitting there waiting for them, which I paraphrase from something some guy much smarter than me once said.

187 posted on 12/15/2008 4:14:42 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: metmom
Metmom, to me, the age of the universe is not particularly relevant b/c God has existed *forever* in the past. Darwinists enjoy tripping up creationists with endless questions about age. It's as though they think that if “young earth” creationism can be discredited, people will then give credibility to their nonsense about how single-celled organisms awakened to consciousness through billions of “dumb luck” mutations.
188 posted on 12/15/2008 4:27:33 PM PST by alstewartfan
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To: Buck W.

Google is my friend: Fudd


189 posted on 12/15/2008 5:36:27 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jwalsh07
I believe the first line of Genesis is the absolute truth and I'm content with that.

Me, too; but I'm not quite content with only that.

I will, however, agree with Sgt. Schultz - "I know NOTHING!"

190 posted on 12/15/2008 5:38:45 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Fudd’s First Law of Opposition. I’m a fan of Firesign.


191 posted on 12/15/2008 5:40:15 PM PST by Buck W. (BHO: Selling hope, keeping the change.)
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To: Elsie

:-}


192 posted on 12/15/2008 5:44:06 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: alstewartfan
Darwinists enjoy tripping up creationists with endless questions about age. It's as though they think that if “young earth” creationism can be discredited, people will then give credibility to their nonsense about how single-celled organisms awakened to consciousness through billions of “dumb luck” mutations.

You are wrong in several aspects of what you have written.

First, there is no such thing as a Darwinist. That's a derogatory, and false, term used by some folks in an attempt to demonize those who disagree with them. You might as well complain about Newtonists, Galileoists, or Einsteinists.

Second, when some folks make claims that contradict what science has found, it is only natural for science to examine the evidence in terms of those claims--and to examine those claims in terms of scientific evidence. The claim of a young earth has not withstood that examination. Now, you can believe what you want but when you make a claim that can be examined by science, don't complain when science examines that claim. And if the claim is found wanting, don't complain about being "tripped up." Rather, examine the evidence supporting your claim.

But you are right in your final comment; if you make claims that can easily be disproved, other claims you make are certainly less credible. St. Augustine noted this centuries ago:

Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

193 posted on 12/15/2008 5:56:58 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman; alstewartfan

No that would be you that are wrong Coyoteman.

“Darwinists”/”Darwinian” is a valid and apt description of people that accept the theory of evolution as a cult and not a theory. And it is they who demand others to conform to their way of thinking, lest they be sued into silence, among other things.

It is also the cult of evolution darwinist types that make comments like “injecting religion into science” or “that’s not science”.

Indeed, this very example illustrates this very truth:

From www.dissentfromdarwin.org

As a chemist, the most fascinating issue for me revolves around the origin of life. Before life began, there was no biology, only chemistry – and chemistry is the same for all time. What works (or not) today, worked (or not) back in the beginning. So, our ideas about what happened on Earth prior to the emergence of life are eminently testable in the lab. And what we have seen thus far when the reactions are left unguided as they would be in the natural world is not much. Indeed, the decomposition reactions and competing reactions out distance the synthetic reactions by far. It is only when an intelligent agent (such as a scientist or graduate student) intervenes and “tweaks” the reactions conditions “just right” do we see any progress at all, and even then it is still quite limited and very far from where we need to get. Thus, it is the very chemistry that speaks of a need for something more than just time and chance. And whether that be simply a highly specified set of initial conditions (fine-tuning) or some form of continual guidance until life ultimately emerges is still unknown. But what we do know is the random chemical reactions are both woefully insufficient and are often working against the pathways needed to succeed. For these reasons I have serious doubts about whether the current Darwinian paradigm will ever make additional progress in this area.

Edward Peltzer
Ph.D. Oceanography, University of California, San Diego (Scripps Institute)
Associate Editor, Marine Chemistry

I’ve seen this argument dismissed as “religion”, or “this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about” or “he’s just an apologist for religion”.

But there’s nothing religious about this guy’s work and he’s indeed a scientist, but this is always dismissed, for no other reason that it is the cultists that indeed have the hang-ups and do the demonizing against those that disagree with them.


194 posted on 12/15/2008 7:43:43 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Coyoteman; alstewartfan

First the term Darwinist, which aptly describes the yote as a devotee of Darwinism, was coined way back in 1860 by Thomas Henry Huxley, who was also known as ‘Darwin’s bulldog’.

Second, ‘Science’ as it were, has been hijacked by atheist fellows inorder to disguise their personal crusades against any notion of G-d and by default people with faith. In other words, they are not doing science any more.

Therefore any conclusion they (and the corrupt peer review system) make in the areas of science must be met with skepticism and doubt that all the facts were given correct and equal attention.


195 posted on 12/15/2008 7:50:06 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: valkyry1

All you need is the Cambrian bunny rabbit, and you’ll have them dead to rights.


196 posted on 12/15/2008 7:52:04 PM PST by cacoethes_resipisco
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To: valkyry1; Coyoteman; alstewartfan
“...was coined way back in 1860 by Thomas Henry Huxley, who was also known as ‘Darwin’s bulldog’.” [excerpt]
Heh, Huxley, what a guy...

"In addition to the truth of the doctrine of evolution, indeed, one of its greatest merits in my eyes, is the fact that it occupies a position of complete and irreconcilable antagonism to that vigorous and consistent enemy of the highest intellectual, moral, and social life of mankind--the Catholic Church."

- T.H Huxley, Darwiniana.


197 posted on 12/15/2008 8:07:22 PM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode

Last I checked, evolution is a fact about allele frequencies varying over time, and a theory of evolution is an attempt to explain this phenomenon and derive other consequences about biology from it.

The fact that arrogant materialists who have not a clue why consciousness exists at all make stupid assertions about the human mind, and purport to derive its properties from their favored theory of evolution is not interesting from either a scientific or theological standpoint.

Seeing that we and they have no idea how mind and brain are related, why are you crediting their conceit?

And why do you insist on the gradualist version of neo-Darwinism as a straw-man, when the fossil record really supports Gould’s punctuated equalibrium version? And why, pray tell, do you think that the dynamics of evolution has nothing akin the phase transitions in other dynamical systems, so that it can only produced differences of degree, rather than of kind?

Read Alexander Kalomiros’s piece if you want an answer to how an Orthodox Christian can resolve the seeming antinomy between creation and evolution. He sets it forth much better than I will. Of course, to be fair Fr. Seraphim Rose was also throughly Orthodox and was plainly a creationist (though not a naive Biblical literalist, since no Orthodox Christian is with regard to any matter addressed in the Holy Scriptures).

I would observe that only those variants of Christianity that arose since the 1500’s and seem to think that Christianity is an ideology founded on a text, rather than a way of life founded on a Person, seem to have a problem with this: vast majorities of Orthodox, Latins (and the Latin Church, since they have a centralized magisterium, and we know the Pope’s view on the matter), Anglicans, Copts, Armenians, and Assyrians, don’t seem to have the problem you Protestants (or ‘Biblical Christians’ or whatever your preferred self-designation is) do. For that matter a lot of Protestants don’t.

Why precisely do you think that Blessed Augustine of Hippo erred when he concluded that the first two chapters of Genesis could not be literally true? (I would note that St. Gregory of Nyssa was of the same mind, calling them “doctrines in the guise of a narrative,” as were the medieval Jewish sages Maimonides and Nachmanides.)


198 posted on 12/15/2008 10:40:02 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: metmom

The more I consider the young earth theory, and how consistent it is with Scripture, the more I find the dual of the young earth theory to manifest profound weaknesses.

5700+ to 6000 yrs actually isn’t as absurd, IMHO, as those who propose billions of years in age with absolute conviction.


199 posted on 12/15/2008 10:49:40 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Buck W.

there are many things pointing to creation by God...it is just your thoughts that tend to make you doubt them that you think is you thinking which is the problem. The incredibly complex dna code which has a numeric sequence to it and is far more complex then a computer code is proof of a designer...along with so many archealogical finds that prove the accuracy of the bible. These are FACTS, not made up theories.


200 posted on 12/15/2008 11:22:41 PM PST by fabian
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