Skip to comments.Who is that Man of Sin to be revealed, the Son of Perdition...
Posted on 01/12/2009 1:44:39 PM PST by TaraP
Are the Man of Sin and the Son of Perdition 2 totally different people?
MEANING OF PERDITION:Entire loss; utter destruction; ruin; esp., the utter loss of the soul, or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
If the Man of SIN was Nero-666 then we have the Son of Perdition to be revealed....I know many have said is Obama that person, but really could he be?
Paul wrote similar words to the Thessalonians, The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders (2 Thes 2:9).
John in the book of Revelation records his vision of a beast coming out of the earth. In similar words he says, And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived those who dwell on the earth (Rev 13: 13,14).
"For The Son Of Man Will Come Like The Lightning, Which Flashes Across The Whole Sky From The East To The West." For Discussion:
TALKS ABOUT BOTH.
Lots of folks seem unable or unwilling
to wrap their minds around a contingency with BOTH occurring in God’s timing and in God’s ways.
Alinsky’s book was dedicated to the AntiChrist?
I didn’t know that.
Try and avoid attempting to disturb the fossilized granitized craniums with
facts; historical facts or Biblical facts.
They are averse to them. They can’t conceive of them.
They can’t wrap their brittle brazen brains well around them.
. . . .
It’s much better when folks calling themselves Christians post truth and facts instead of falsehoods.
The pre Darby stuff has been proven repeatedly.
He did dedicate his book to Lucifer now didn’t he. And who is it that long ago decided he would be ‘God’. And what did he tempt Christ with if Christ would bend His knee to him? Didn’t Christ tell us He had foretold us all things? You surely do not think He, Christ would not think that it would be important to know who would be pretending to be Him in that day?
Technically true. Darby borrowed the idea from Edward Irving. The Irving/Darby invention was independent of the speculation in Morgan Edwards' student thesis.
He had to pay the challenge when someone showed him the writtings of Rev. Morgan Edwards (1742).
I'm not sure how the gentleman in question phrased his challenge, but I would not have paid based on the Edwards' statement.
Morgan Edwards wrote those comments as an exercise given to him by his professor when he was about 20 years old. The exercise involved trying to apply a literal interpretation to the Bible. There is no evidence of any widespread distribution of these thoughts (I would not call them teachings since there is no evidence he ever taught them to anyone). He finally published this material 44 years later. There is no evidence that anyone ever interacted with the material in any way.
In commenting on Edwards' statement, Tommy Ice in The Shout Heard Around the World Overview of the Rapture makes a number of unwarranted observations:
Morgan Edwards, an important early American Baptist scholar, clearly taught some form of pre-tribulationism.There is no evidence that Edwards taught these ideas, or that his professors encouraged him at all in this literal method.
It is clear from the above comment that Edwards was taught literal interpretation by his teachers, but they did not apply it consistently throughout the whole Bible.
Edwards titled his book Two Academical Exercises perhaps indicating it was not something for general, serious consumption.
In analyzing Edwards' work, Tim Warner reminds us:
Pre-tribbers may be disappointed to discover that while Morgan Edwards' conclusions regarding the Millennium were based on literal interpretation, he gave no (literal) biblical reason for separating the rapture from the second coming. His only justification for this separation was his belief that it provided a necessary interval for the judgment of believers.Edwards believed that the raptured saints would spend three and a half years at the judgment seat of Christ. That was the only reason
(Morgan Edwards and the Pre-Trib Rapture)
"Let me tell thee, gentle reader, that the tutor's advice was taken by the composer of the Millennium; and that it has undergone several alterations and corrections since the protograph was exhibited in the said desk. Let me tell thee further, that the other advice, or rather command of the tutor was attended to; and a discourse delivered in the same desk, on the New Heaven and New Earth. A copy of which follows under the title, Last Novelties. And if thou like it half as well as I do, thou wilt not begrudge the eleven-penny bit it cost thee."If appears he got those last ideas from applying the same literal method to interpreting the Bible.
It seems Morgan's work was published partly for its novelty and entertainment value rather than its weight as a theological discourse! And, one is not disappointed with the second section, where Morgan speculated that the lake of fire is in the moon, and that all the other planets in our solar system are inhabited!
The 56-page book is full of such raw speculation.
We can comfort others by telling them that there will be tribulation, but Jesus will be there with them through it all. The blessed hope we have is His coming again afater we go through whatever it is we must endure. Jeez...That isn't rocket science. It's basic scripture.
Let me try a different verse. When Jesus said that the saints will escape the "things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36), what was He talking about? I read a list of things we shall escape in Matt. 24, Luke 21 and Rev. 6-19: war, famine, death, religious persecution, earthquakes, signs and wonders in heaven, hail fire and blood, seas and rivers turned to blood, falling stars, sun moon and stars darkened, demons loosed upon earth, scorching sun, darkness, demons working miracles, satanic deception... To me all of them can be summed up in one word: Tribulation. And Jesus promised us that we will escape it!.
Luke 21:26 does not have Jesus saying we will escape these things. He says that when we see these things begin to occur, that we are to look up for our redemption (His 2nd coming) draweth nigh. In other words, these are signs of His soon returning. He does not guarantee escape. He even goes so far as to warn people to pray that they may be found worthy to escape these things, but never does He promise we will escape. Matthew 24 specifically says we will go through the tribulation, and that we'll see the AntiChrist, and such, and when we do to FLEE! He doesn't say I'm taking you out of it.
God certainly does say He has not appointed us to wrath, but to see Salvation. "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5:9.
Many interpret this to mean that God will take us to heaven in the Rapture before His wrath comes upon the world. But this is not what Paul had in mind. The context reveals that God's "wrath" is the same as the "sudden destruction" (vs. 3) that falls upon the lost when "the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night" (vs. 2). "God has not appointed us to wrath" (vs. 9) simply means that His wrath will not fall on true Christians when Jesus Christ returns.
Prior to Christ's return, the 7 last plagues of God's wrath will fall upon the world (Rev. 16). These plagues are very similar to the 10 plagues that fell upon the Egyptians in the time of Moses. Where were God's people then? Were they gone from Egypt? No, but they were protected! No plague fell upon the Israelites (Ex. 8:22; 9:6; etc.).
Paul wrote that "the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Eph. 5:6. Thus the larger issue is not "pre-trib vs. post-trib," but whether we are among the OBEDIENT OR DISOBEDIENT. When God's wrath falls, the disobedient will experience it to the fullest, no matter whether they claim to be Christians or not. Profession is worthless (see Mat. 7:21-23). Those who think they will disappear in the Rapture before the tribulation, and yet who are now living in disobedience to God's word, will experience God's wrath (unless they repent). Jesus Christ said He will assign them their "portion with the hypocrites." Mat. 24:51.
The snippets of scripture used to support a rapture doctrine are used so out of context it's scary.
What is it about scripture that you find so funny?
So, now God has a contingency plan just in case what He’s claerly stated in His Word doesn’t pan out just right?
Scripture has many funny parts . . .
However, in that post it was the absurd inferences that were so funny.
I’m not sure some folks could
recognize a “clearly stated”
if it bit them where there’s lots to bite.
I didn’t know he did that.
Dedicated to Lucifer, the first great community activist, according to the twisted mind of Saul Alinsky whom Obama and the rodham rodent admire.
Luke 10:18 (King James Version)
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Welllllllllllll, I’ve said for years,
he was their boss.
Didn’t realize they were so overt about it.
"Rules for Radicals" begins with an unusual tribute: "From all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom Lucifer."
Note that if someone has his own 'kingdom', doesn't that make this entity a 'king' in these followers minds?
"Understand that, if St. Paul thought eschatology critical enough..."
He wasn't the only one...
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" (2nd Peter 1:19)
Jhn 13:19 "Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]."
Jhn 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
1st John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment"
1st John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
God help us all.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
The naysayers are going to be left with some very unpleasant chaff ashes to spit out.
Oh, I had read that.
“Christians expecting to be raptured may not be prepared for whatever is coming, sort of in like lacking oil for their lamps.”
Thanks, That’s a perfect analogy and one that we were even warned of by Jesus.
Oh, interesting history in the family there.
Im not sure what version you are reading, but I find all sorts of comforting words from Jesus in the book:
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, (1:9)I could go on and on. The point being that Revelation is a book of comfort. God is in complete control and His children, in spite of temporal trials, will be vindicated and rewarded in the end, while the unrighteous will suffer both temporal punishment and eternal torment. As I said, these words were very appropriate for first century believers suffering at the hands of the Romans and apostate Jews.
and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. (2:3)
To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. (2:7)
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (2:10)
To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." ' (2:17)
And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations(2:26)
9 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (3:19-21)
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (22:12-15)
J. Stuart Russell in his book The Parousia, writes: It could not but be well known to the Jews that the great hope and faith of the Christians was the speedy coming of the Son. St James, the brother of our Lord, publicly testified in the temple that the Son of man was about to come in the clouds of heaven, It seems highly probable that the Jews, in their defiant and desperate blasphemy, when they saw the white mass hurtling through the air, raised the ribald cry, The Son is coming, in mockery of the Christian hope of the Parousia, to which they might trace a ludicrous resemblance in the strange appearance of the missile. ( Our Daily Thread, see also RC Sprouls The Last Days According to Jesus)
Someone once accused me of being a son of perdition here on FR. I don’t think I am, but just in case I thought I should divulge that.
You are half right, big, as I've called you a son-of... numerous times. Especially this football season!
Yet if you are the Son of Perdition... I'll drink to that!
Ok, I guess if that’s what you want to believe who am I... :)
Call it absurd all you want. 1 Thessalonians does not speak of a pre-trib rapture. At all. It is very specifically that it references the sequence of events that will occur at the Second Coming. One can search for pre trib rapture in that book all they want but it just ain’t there.
I believe the rapture doctrine is one of the most dangerous doctrines ever taught in that it causes Christians to be nonchalant, and unprepared for the things coming on this earth. Instead, they are expecting to mysteriously vanish and suffer nothing when the bible is explicit that Christians will see suffering, and even clearer that those who endure until the end shall be saved.
Also, imagine the confusion and mixed signals it produces in the mind of those who believe that God is not yet finished with physical Israel. We are told the God has a plan for Israel after the flesh that can only be accomplished after the Church is raptured. What incentive is there to bring the gospel to Jewish people when they are clearly supposed to be left behind ® and suffer things in the future tribulation period, and then, perhaps, go into the millennium as some special, unified race of people? God forbid that they would get converted to Christ before things heat up and they miss their true calling along with the rest of physical Israel.
I completely agree. Its a doctrine that calls for Two separate ‘Second Comings’ (1 Thess. 4:16 vs Mat. 24:30), two last trumpets (1 Cor. 15:52 vs Rev. 11:15), two FIRST resurrections (1 Thess. 4:16 vs Rev. 20:5), and it requires that the Day of the Lord take 7 years instead of one day (1 Thess. 5:9 vs Zech. 14:7).
All without any scriptural support.
Is this the ‘LIE’ spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:11, I don’t believe it is but if someone believes this lie what chance do they have against the next one.
Finally, I look back to the First Coming as an example of what to expect for the Second Coming. How’s that, well despite knowing the scriptures (OT) at that time, they still didn’t ‘get it’ despite all the signs and wonders. Its easy for us to look back and comment on how in the world could they have missed the obvious. But I feel the Second Coming will happen just the same way. I don’t see us during the ‘tribulation’ being knocked back on our heels watching earth shattering events just in awe of what is happening. I believe it’ll happen for the most part right under our noses and so wont even be recognized by some until its too late as we learned in the parable of the virgins.
Paul writes very specifically in his intro to this subject that there are TWO EVENTS, and they happen in a certain order:
— the coming of our Lord
— our being gathered
The order in which Paul wrote them gives us the order in which they will occur: Christ will appear, and then we will be gathered to him. That chronology mandates that Christ appears before the rapture of the Saints, and that order of events obliterates the possibility of a pre-trib, or mid-trib rapture scenario.
Personally, I think I am on good footing to assert that there IS a rapture, and that it is at the point where the Great Tribulation transitions into the final outpouring of wrath; after the Seal and the Trumpet judgments, but before the Bowls of Wrath are poured out.
I leave you free to argue about this to your heart's content (or discontent, as the case may be), but I challenge you to take it as an exercise to ask as many people as you like the following question, and make careful note of the order in which they give you their answers:
"When you think of 'The Holiday Season' what holidays come to mind?"
I can guaranatee you -- because humans live and think as chronological beings -- that well over 90% of your respondents will list their answers in chronological order, just as St. Paul listed the coming events in chronological order.
We are gathered uto Him at His second coming; just as the dead arise. Not before, but after. I believe we will be divinely protected, and supernatural provision will occur for us, but we will be here to the end.
Awesome point. I agree.
Some folks seem to have vast warehouses full of absurdities.
. . . and a cheeky tendency to spread them liberally around.
I don’t think anyone has THE RAPTURE nor some other key END TIMES events
close to precisely or some even remotely all figured out.
However, some things are more absurd than others.
Well, I think Paul, John, and Peter had it pretty much dead-on, and they wrote enough about it in plain enough language, that it shouldn’t take a Master Jigsaw Puzzler to fit the passages together into a cohesive narrative.
The Cuisinart approach to eschatological scripture just makes no sense to me.
In thirty years I’ve gone from “The Late, Great Planet Earth” to more the historic reformed view. I’m convinced we’re in it for the duration to be salt, light, and a witness in the Earth up to the very threshold of The Winepress of The Wrath of YHVH. I believe that, while the Tribulation will truly be Great, those times will also be The Church’s finest hour.
Having The Church leave the stage before the climax of the play just makes no sense to me.
I have come to an understanding that The Great Tribulation is the ultimate method by which YHVH will manifest the extent of His love and mercy in that out of it will come the salvation of the most, and the destruction of the fewest. There is GREAT redemptive purpose in The Tribulation, and since we — The Church — have been given the ministry of Reconciliation, how could we NOT be present?
That wouldn’t make sense to me.
Also, I consider that The Great Tribulation is the only crucible sufficient to the adequate refinement, and purification of Christendom into a Bride worthy of The Son of God; glorious, and without spot or stain. Yeah, it’s “not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith The LORD,” but He’s got a bunch of work to do before this present, disheveled, unfaithful, scatterbrained, and argumentative lady is ready for her wedding to His Son. Reviewing scripture, I don’t see anything besides The Tribulation that could be the forge in which such a miraculously radical, and complete transformation takes place.
It just makes sense to me.
So, there you have it; that’s what I think. It’s not what I’ve always thought, and I can’t say it’ll be exactly what I think tomorrow (I’m still keen to nail down whether The Church is on the Earth right through the Bowls of Wrath, or not), but I’m striving for betterment, and what I think right now is an improvement in scriptural “fit” versus what I used to think.
Lastly, if anyone would be contentious, know that I’m a “pan-millennialist” at heart: I believe it’ll all pan out, in the end. ;-)
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
— Rev. 13:18 KJV
In the image below, the figures at the top are Arabic for "in the name of Allah". Below that are the three letters from the Greek Codex Vaticanus [ca. 350AD] that stand for the "number" that the KJV renders "666".
Take each Arabic character, rotate it 90-degrees counterclockwise, then mirror it. The result is shockingly similar to the Greek. The theory is that what John saw, he faithfully replicated on his parchment, but a subsequent scribe mistook the Arabic characters for malformed Greek ones, and substituted proper Greek letters in place of the Arabic.
Just a theory, but -- yikes! What a stunner!
That sounds like
you believe that
The Great Tribulation
IS THE GREAT PURIFIER OF SAINTS
THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
I have a very serious problem with that.
Also, those not living—who’ve graduated from this life before THE GREAT TRIBULATION
missed out on THE GREAT PURIFICATION
and so have to take a lower rank when ruling and reigning with Christ?
Doesn’t sound Scriptural, to me.
While this may appear interesting on the surface, the problem with the explanation is that it would have made absolutely no sense to the first century believers to whom the book of Revelation was written. Both the Arabic language script and the concept of Allah were foreign to that generation and did not come until hundreds of years later. And if we need to resort to turning the image sideways, or taking a mirror image, or in way physically transforming the material, then that is very questionable.
And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. (Rev. 22:10)Although it is admittedly one step above the Ronald Wilson Reagan is the Antichrist genre of interpretation, I think that any explanation that works in opposition to that plain statement is suspect.
Cue laughing dog slapping floor.
I’ve seen this as well in a Walid Shoebat video on youtube. While I agree with much of Shoebat’s interpretations regarding the middle east and its place in Bible prophecy and to the similarities in the images presented I’m of the mind to go with what topcat54’s comments are and furthermore how John clearly says that its the ‘number’ of his name.
We may be losing sight of the purpose of the number/symbol. It was given to us so that we can recognize the one person “man” we call the anti-christ/beast when he comes, not to associate (or recognize) it with a group of people or religion.
Thanks for the ping.
lol 668, is your neighbor Hillary?
Well I’m happy to learn that you have a problem with the unbiblical position you incorrectly “heard” me advocate.
I must say, though, I am a bit disappointed that you did not exert greater effort to “hear” me correctly.
You know as well as I do that all who are in Christ are positionally pure, and sealed with the Spirit, because of the shed blood of Jesus. That point is not “in play,” and I would have thought that, given our prior exchanges, you would have known me well enough to at least presume that I meant something else; something NOT blatantly opposed to the Truth of Scripture.
On the plus side, though, you being obtuse — intentional, or not — does give me a reason to explain it.
So, for the “hearing impaired” ...
When I say that “the Great Tribulation is the crucible for the purification of The Church,” I mean “purification” NOT in the sense that it purifies the souls of individual Christians, but that it forces a purification of practice in the lives of individuals; it makes the committed more so, and drives out the uncommitted. YES, individuals who are in Christ are Spiritually purified, already, but that doesn’t mean that church houses around the world are devoid of sin, and corruption, or that people who are really saved aren’t caught up in any of it. It just isn’t so. Divorce is every bit as rampant in churches as outside of them, and many of those church-going divorced people really ARE saved; I know several. That is just one example.
Jesus famously told John the Revelator regarding the Laodiceans, “I wish that you were either hot or cold.” The Great Tribulation is going to force that decision. There will not be any such thing as a “lukewarm” Christian; you, and I and every other church-goer will either get all the way in, or all the way out. The crucible of The Great Tribulation will simply be too intense for nominal Christianity to survive. Those who are, today, “nominal” Christians are going to come face-to-face with the contrast between how they have been living, and how Christ is calling them to live, and they will respond by either falling to their knees, or turning their backs. One way or the other, there will be a decisive change, and they will NOT be “nominal” anymore.
THAT, is what I mean when I say that “The Great Tribulation is the crucible that will purify The Church.”
Happily, there is still time to “get all the way in” before you’re forced to choose one way or the other. Choose while the choice is still free.
Better Hillary, than the “islamic center” next door. Fundamentalist variety from Pakistan. :(