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11 Prophecies fulfilled this generation.
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Posted on 02/21/2009 6:09:00 AM PST by kindred

FOR THE PROPHECY CAME NOT IN OLD TIME BY THE WILL OF MAN: BUT HOLY MEN OF GOD SPAKE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST. O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN-Lk 24:25. However, believing there is a God and acknowledging the Bible is the Word of God does not save a person. A person needs to admit they are a sinner, repent, and receive Jesus Christ as their only hope of being saved. This is done by faith (or trust).

Let's prove the Bible is true and we are nearing the end of the last generation before Christ returns.

1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again after a long time and at a time the Bible calls the "latter days"-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3; Ezek 38:8. Against what appeared to be impossible odds, this prophecy has been fulfilled. It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years. That’s 1 out of 1. Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. Since that time, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Yet as the Bible said, the nation of Israel would be reborn. The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the "latter days." It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Some of these are listed here. Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the signs from God’s Word being fulfilled exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At precisely 4 pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, "The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended." Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once, exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under attack by the Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, and Iraqi forces.

3. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3. Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the "United Nations" approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was "brought forth out of the nations"—the children of Israel from many nations have been returning to their ancient homeland.

4. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 4 out of 4. Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know the time we are in. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. We are not setting any date; however, it seems clear from Israel’s rebirth and the signs of the times— that we are living in the generation in which the Rapture and Tribulation will come and catch most people by surprise. Are you ready?

5. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 5 out of 5. Note: God will spew them out. Many ministers and people that call themselves a Christian will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today’s church. Most preachers use little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, on the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear. Many (so-called Christians) are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Some famous ministers and Bible schools think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

6. The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. These fit the people of today perfectly, but did not fit the people of fifty years ago. Here are some:

A. Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect.

B. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.

C. People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials—"I do it for me"?

D. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.

E. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.

F. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.

G. People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?

H. People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto "In God we trust" has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.

I. People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God’s Word is 100% right on every one. That’s 6 out of 6. How could you have any doubts at this point? Note: Fifty years ago, many people seldom locked their doors at night. There was little or no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.

7. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true. That’s 7 out of 7. Note: It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2004) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

8. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This seemingly impossible prophecy was written when there was no printing press, but today it is true. That's 8 out of 8. Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or "among all nations." In addition, the Gospel is available by short-wave radio nearly everywhere in the world.

9. In the "latter days" when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 9 out of 9. Note: How could the Bible have foretold the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass? As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN.

10. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. That’s 10 out of 10.

11. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact description of the European Economic Community today (the EEC), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44. That’s 11 out of 11. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions made thousands of years ago—with God nothing is impossible. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic should see the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are nearing the time of the end.

About 22 prophecies in 11 sets have been given, all perfect and all written centuries ago. The chance that any person could do this 2000 years into the future is not possible. The Bible is the Word of God, and we have just proved it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Repent and get baptized by full immersion. Read and obey the Gospel. God loves you. He is not willing that any should perish, yet many do. The Rapture is close. Most people are not ready and will not be taken. However, "YOU" cannot say you did not know. Know and understand, Mt 16:26-WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL? OR WHAT SHALL A MAN GIVE IN


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: jesusischrist; prohecy; proof; rapture
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To: kindred

We were attending a church in Longwood Florida that had a pastor that openly supported obama and was his ‘voice’ on Fox and Friends after Saddleback.

we were sickened. this guy is pathetic; sending a message to all those young people that attend his church that obama is acceptable as a president because Joel Hunter supports him.


51 posted on 02/21/2009 11:30:06 AM PST by spacejunkie01
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To: grumpa

Kindred, you are a preterist. There are two major problems with preterism. First, in order to support the notion of an A.D. 70 fulfillment of the large number of details surrounding the tribulation, preterists must use an unwarranted allegorical interpretative approach. Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21 must somehow be understood to represent Christ coming mysteriously through the Roman army which conquered Jerusalem in A.D 70.

A second major error of preterism is the confusion of judgment and salvation in relation to the nation of Israel. Preterism sees only judgment toward Israel in passages that speak of the tribulation, such as the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 17:20-37) and Revelation 4-19.


52 posted on 02/21/2009 12:46:05 PM PST by Doctor Don
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To: mountn man
Thank you for your reply.

But I see that 2012, and that war as possible coinciding.

I do not find a need to correlate Jehovah's Prophets with pagan prophecy, and for that reason, I pay pagan prophecy little mind when applied to Jehovah's Word.

Pagan prophecy is useful, but only in predicting the path of the lie, which will fool most of the world. Lies always have a kernel of truth to lend them credence, but it is always and invariably skewed by the lie itself. Discerning truth from lies is nearly always a futile thing, and certainly so when dealing with something as specific as a date.

As an aside, This is why we must reject anything which attempts to add to the Holy Word, especially any which attempt to discredit the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in preference of something else- The Prophecy is interwoven throughout the Bible, and it is Jehovah's proof to us that He is indeed God Almighty. That He ALONE knows the beginning from the ending and He told us all these things would happen, even as they are.

There are some similarities between the Bibles AC and Islams Mahdi.

Not only are there similarities, Islamic prophecy is the direct antithesis of the Judeo-Christian Prophets. While time-lines coincide, at every turn, the Islamic prophecies proclaim the exact opposite of the Hebrew and Christian Prophecy. Read the Koran and assoc. Hadiths. It will curl your hair.

In Gog/Magog the armies and possibly the countries of Gog-Russia and most Islamic nations-will be destroyed, BY GOD.

This is true, but it depends somewhat upon interpretation. If the Battle of Magog is the same thing as the Battle against Edom, which one would suppose it is as Edom's progeny are inarguably interspersed with Ishmael's, those same Islamic countries which are decimated in the War of Magog, then one must also include the Edom prophecies in this tale.

And the linkage is there to a degree. In both cases, unlike Armageddon, the major battle takes place south of Jerusalem, in the valley of Jehoshaphat (AFAIR), which is the Jordan river valley running toward the Dead Sea.

There is much to say about Christ coming up from the south, His robes stained crimson... It says He takes Judah as His bow (odd, as Ephraim is always the Bow of Jehovah), and fills him with the arrows of Ephraim... and it says that the Spirit of the Lord would run before them in battle.

It speaks of captives of Judah and Ephraim, kept in a well with no water (the only other ref, Joseph betrayed by his brothers) miraculously released, and as the war suddenly turns, of Ephraim's people leaping for joy in the west, because they know it was the Lord.

So a profound and inexplicable victory, no doubt. Those who believe will see the Hand of the Lord, and KNOW that He saved the day. To those who don't believe, it will look like an incredible military victory against a seemingly overwhelming force.

What is a more salient and important point to me, is who and where is Ephraim? The House of Israel (as differed from the House of Judah) figures prominently in end times Prophecy, and that knowledge seems to be a critical piece that is missing. Knowing that can change the whole perspective.

I also think that Israel needs to find vast oil reserves, and become a wealthy nation.

If the War we are talking about leaves Israel with it's promised lands, it will indeed own oil as the eastern Iraqi fields would be part of that land.

1948+70 years = 2018.

Yes, I suppose, though it can be argued that the forming of Israel was not complete until Jerusalem was captured. Others await the Temple to officially begin the clock, feeling that the prophecy is not complete until Israel establishes God's Holy Mountain, as expected...

There is also some ambiguity as to a "generation". Forty years is also a Biblically referenced generation, as is sixty years. What is important is that the major sign has been accomplished. We may not understand it fully without the clarity of the next milepost. The measurements will work out, to be sure. We may not have enough information to calculate clearly at this time. That is the danger of assuming context in prophecy.

The US had been doing pretty good, but still people CHOSE to follow Obama as if he were the Messiah, a savior fro mall our ills.

I disagree completely. This election was about Republicans being unpalatable to Conservatives, not about any other thing. That both political parties are bent upon the destruction of our sovereignty, and have been for years, ties in neatly with your general theory though.

Imagine how people will be when the real player comes on the scene. People here have chosen to believe the Obama lie. I can only imagine people choosing to believe the AC lie.

Again, I don't see 0bama as being much at all, nor do I see people believing in him at all. There is alot of MSM pimping designed to make us believe it is so, but no one is in favor of what he is actually doing.

The AC will look a whole lot more "christian", IMHO, with sound economic policies, real work ethics, real prowess. Remember that he sits in Jehovah's House, claiming to be god.

53 posted on 02/21/2009 1:07:18 PM PST by roamer_1 (Proud 1%er... Reagan Conservatism is the only way forward.)
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To: kindred

I’m sure. I’m sure that, now that we have a closet-Muslim, fake-Christian, radical, Marxist communist in charge of the USA, we will definitely NOT be on the side of Isreal when the time comes.....just AS biblical prophecy foretells. That doesn’t mean that at least half of Americans and most Christian Americans aren’t pulling for Isreal in their hearts, though.


54 posted on 02/21/2009 1:22:50 PM PST by XenaLee
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To: kindred; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan; XeniaSt
1. ... It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years.

There is no evidence to support the idea that secular Israel circa 1948 is the fulfillment of any Bible prophecy.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.

Sorry, Israel was not literally “brought forth in a day”. The political machinations that resulted in modern, secular Israel of 1948 started decades before, at least starting with the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917.

3. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. ... This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled.

There was no fulfilled prophecy. This is pure speculation.

5. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 5 out of 5.

There is no such prophecy in the Bible.

6. The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end.

And these have been true in one way or another for 2000 years.

7. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12.

There are no prophecies about weapons that could destroy the entire world in the Bible. Just look at the verses carefully. None of the say anything about humanly created weapons.

And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed--by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. ... And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

8. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10.

Paul confirmed this reality in the first century. Cf. Col. 1:6.

9. In the "latter days" when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16.

But there is no proof that modern, secular Israel is related at all to Biblical Israel, and the idea that Russia is Magog has no support at all from the Bible.

10. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million.

200 million on horseback (you forgot that part), literally speaking (Rev. 9:16). Did you know there are only about 70 million horses on the entire planet? It's gonna be a few more decades, even centuries, before this can ever be “literally fulfilled” (which, of course, it won't because it is not an image to be taken “literally”).

11. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact description of the European Economic Community today (the EEC), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations.

Oh, you mean the so-called ten nation confederacy of 70s-era futurism? Just FYI, the EEC no longer exists. It's been replaced by the EU, which has how many nations these days, 27 I believe.

How old is this list?

These fraudulent lists are so easy to poke holes in. It's sad to see folks so easily duped by bad prophecy gurus.

55 posted on 02/21/2009 5:11:40 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: mountn man

I have the utmost respect for Bible prophecy.

The endless interpretations and speculations of man, especially newly invented doctrines that have no history in the Church, those I do not take seriously for a minute.

And no I am not gloating over Israel. I pray there will continue to be peace in that region. However I don’t see how with Barry at the helm.


56 posted on 02/21/2009 5:31:04 PM PST by festus (Politics makes for strange bedfellows)
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To: festus
The endless interpretations and speculations of man, especially newly invented doctrines that have no history in the Church, those I do not take seriously for a minute.

Newly invented????

57 posted on 02/21/2009 5:33:49 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: topcat54; kindred; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
How old is this list?

These fraudulent lists are so easy to poke holes in. It's sad to see folks so easily duped by bad prophecy gurus.

Mat 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Mat 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

Mat 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think {He will.}

Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?

Mat 24:46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

Mat 24:47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Mat 24:48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'

Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;

Mat 24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect {him} and at an hour which he does not know,

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
58 posted on 02/21/2009 5:38:38 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt; kindred; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
Mat 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Amen. Too bad folks keep making up these wacky lists purporting to know the end is near.

59 posted on 02/21/2009 5:52:42 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. ...

A perfect segue to John's depiction of New Jerusalem, in the new heavens and new earth:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

"Oh, that's a different river, different trees, different fruit for the healing of the nations. See, there's two sets...." Or something.

Did you know there are only about 70 million horses on the entire planet? It's gonna be a few more decades, even centuries, before this can ever be “literally fulfilled”

I dunno, 200,000,000 of these you could probably come up with in a decade:

China, buying up all the metals it can get. Coincidence? I think not.

60 posted on 02/21/2009 6:19:13 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: mountn man; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
1948+70 years = 2018.

Ah, futurist math. The only difference between it an real math is that it changes ever time one of these dates comes and goes.

“The most important sign in Matthew has to be the restoration of the Jews to the land in the rebirth of Israel. Even the figure of speech ‘fig tree´ has been a historic symbol of national Israel. When the Jewish people, after nearly 2,000 years of exile, under relentless persecution, became a nation again on 14 May 1948 the ‘fig tree´ put forth its first leaves. Jesus said that this would indicate that He was ‘at the door,´ ready to return. Then He said, ‘Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place´ (Matthew 24:34, NASB). What generation? Obviously, in context, the generation that would see the signs—chief among them the rebirth of Israel. A generation in the Bible is something like forty years. If this is a correct deduction, then within forty years or so of 1948, all these things could take place. Many scholars who have studied Bible prophecy all their lives believe that this is so.” (Hal Lindsey, 1970)

"We're the generation that saw the fig tree bud forth, as Israel became a nation again in 1948. As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years. ... Forty years after 1948 would bring us to 1988." (Chuck Smith, 1978)


61 posted on 02/21/2009 6:19:16 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: mountn man
The endless interpretations and speculations of man, especially newly invented doctrines that have no history in the Church, those I do not take seriously for a minute.

Newly invented????

Newly invented, by comparison to the history of the church. Dispensationalism dates from the first half of the 19th century.

62 posted on 02/21/2009 6:24:46 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: Doctor Don
Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-21 must somehow be understood to represent Christ coming mysteriously through the Roman army which conquered Jerusalem in A.D 70.

Why is that a stretch? God sent the Assyrians and Babylonians against Samaria and Judah.

63 posted on 02/21/2009 6:29:10 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: Don Corleone
Exactly what I was about to post when I saw yours:

12-21-12 also my 30th wedding anniversary

64 posted on 02/21/2009 6:33:51 PM PST by classified
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To: kindred
I am in no way suggesting that Obama is the anti-Christ, but the beast is described as being charasmatic and having sway over the leaders of the world in the end times.

Hmmm.
65 posted on 02/21/2009 6:46:25 PM PST by reagan_fanatic (Let the 2nd American Revolution begin!)
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To: reagan_fanatic
I am in no way suggesting that Obama is the anti-Christ, but the beast is described as being charasmatic and having sway over the leaders of the world in the end times.

Chapter and verse, s'il vous plait?

66 posted on 02/21/2009 6:52:56 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field
A perfect segue to John's depiction of New Jerusalem, in the new heavens and new earth:

Too bad some folks don't get it, and are looking for a carnal redemption.

67 posted on 02/21/2009 6:59:18 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54; reagan_fanatic
Chapter and verse, s'il vous plait?
And not from a gnostic gospel.
68 posted on 02/21/2009 7:00:39 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Gnosticism and anti-trinitarian heresy, like beans and cabbage, makes for a powerful combo.)
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To: topcat54; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
The problem with your post is that in Psalm 90 it says that a man life is to be 3 score and 10, or if by strength four score, which would be 70 years or 80. Now what about people who die young? Is the Bible a liar? My grandfather lived to 93. Did he prove the Bible wrong?

You seem to cherry pick my comment to beat me up with it. Lets look at what else I posted, in the same post.

My original comment about 2012 was just a thought that I have had, in using other than biblical "prophesy". Another thought I've had is that Israel became a nation in 1948. Psalms 90 tells us that a man shall live (a generation) 3 score and 10, or even 4 score. So 70-80 years. 1948+70 years = 2018. That would be if your holding to a generation being 70 years, and timelining it out. Now subtract 7 years for the tribulation, because if your a person who holds to the idea of a rapture, the rapture and second coming are different events. Whether the trib starts as soon as April or June of this year or not until 2018, doesn't really matter. Time is running out for the harvest. The storm clouds are gathering.

When I posted my "thoughts" I think it was pretty clear that they are thoughts, not something I absolutely hold to dogmatically. I posted that whether the trib starts in April 2009 or 2018... Pretty well shows I'm pretty loose on dates. You also totally avoid the MOST important part. The part where I mention that time is running out for the harvest.

2000 years ago we were told to be on the lookout for Christs return, as if it could happen today. Our lives aren't about living comfy lives in 3000 sq ft homes, with 2 cars, and 50" tvs. We are to be changing lives. Sharing the Good News, that others might believe. Its not wrong to have those things, but they're not why we're here. IF you KNEW Christ were to return next week, how would that change your prayer life? Who would you call to meet for lunch or dinner, to share the gospel?

Its easy and convenient to have the attitude that Christ has been gone for 2000 years and might not come back for another 1000. It allows us to live OUR lives. Believing that our "ministries" at church are "Gods" work. Gods work is reaching others for Christ.

69 posted on 02/21/2009 7:05:47 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: Just mythoughts; Ezekiel
Christ called the House of Israel the ‘lost sheep’, lost because they do NOT know who they are, their punishment for whoring after other ‘gods’.

[Amos 9:9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Yup....they don't know....but He does!

70 posted on 02/21/2009 7:43:51 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Lee N. Field
The term rapture has its roots as far back as 400 ad. 1400 years before the 19th century.

Christ himself taught that 2 would be working in a field, and one taken away. Once in Matthew and once in Luke.

1Thessalonians 4 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Sounds like a rapture, or taking away to me.

1 Corinthians 15 talks about the same thing.

4 times talking about a sudden taking away.

Now the only thing left is when it happens.

Matthew 24
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Pretty much means it doesn't matter "when" we think it will happen. we should always live as if it were today.

71 posted on 02/21/2009 7:53:09 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: mountn man
The notion of a "rapture", a catching up of believers, goes back to the Bible. The dispensational notion of a secret snatching away of believers dates back to Margaret McDonald and the Irvingite enthusiasts.
72 posted on 02/22/2009 5:32:48 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Gnosticism and anti-trinitarian heresy, like beans and cabbage, makes for a powerful combo.)
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To: topcat54; mountn man; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
"We're the generation that saw the fig tree bud forth, as Israel became a nation again in 1948. As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years. ... Forty years after 1948 would bring us to 1988." (Chuck Smith, 1978)

The time of testing is forty years: 30 CE + 40 years = 70 CE

Again the time of testing: capture of Jerusalem with the return
of the Temple Mount to the Evil One : 1967-68 + 40 years = 2007-2008.

We are at the door ; lookup !

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
73 posted on 02/22/2009 6:46:32 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt; mountn man; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
The time of testing is forty years: 30 CE + 40 years = 70 CE

“This generation” ala Matthew 24:34.

Not sure about the “testing” part. Where is that in the Bible?

Again the time of testing: capture of Jerusalem with the return of the Temple Mount to the Evil One : 1967-68 + 40 years = 2007-2008.

There is nothing about capture of Jerusalem wrt the start of the generation time period. It's simply another discredited theory of the futurists.

Besides, it's already 2009.

We are at the door ; lookup !

This has been true for 2000 years. Christ can return at any moment. It is folly, therefore, to suggest you can time it with your Israel-centric timepiece.

74 posted on 02/22/2009 11:52:25 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: mountn man; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
The problem with your post is that in Psalm 90 it says that a man life is to be 3 score and 10, or if by strength four score, which would be 70 years or 80. Now what about people who die young? Is the Bible a liar? My grandfather lived to 93. Did he prove the Bible wrong?

The problem with your analysis is that your are using the wrong verses to figure out what a generation is in the Bible.

A more appropriate verse for this situation would be Numbers 32:13, "So the Lord's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was gone."

Forty years has to do with the judgment of that generation. "This generation" of Matthew 24:34 is speaking of the generation of the children of Israel in the 1st century who rejected Messiah and had Him put to death. "And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and on our children.'" (Matt. 27:25).

Lindsey and Smith had the correct timing. Their error was that they were off by nineteen hundred and ten years or so as to when to apply the timing.

When I posted my "thoughts" I think it was pretty clear that they are thoughts, not something I absolutely hold to dogmatically.

Then consider my comments as more information by which you may refine your thoughts.

IF you KNEW Christ were to return next week, how would that change your prayer life? Who would you call to meet for lunch or dinner, to share the gospel?

But we don't and still we should. That's why schemes based on calculations about modern, secular Israel as some indicator for Jesus' return are so detrimental to the life of the Church.

75 posted on 02/22/2009 12:04:49 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field; mountn man

“Newly invented, by comparison to the history of the church. Dispensationalism dates from the first half of the 19th century.”

And Preterism (Lee N. Field’s probable poison) was invented by Jesuit Luis De Alcasar during the Counter Reformation - unless you want to count Hymenaeus and Philetus.


76 posted on 02/22/2009 1:31:43 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: EdReform

bookmark


77 posted on 02/22/2009 1:36:26 PM PST by EdReform (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed *NRA*JPFO*SAF*GOA*SAS*CCRKBA)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; topcat54; mountn man
And Preterism (Lee N. Field’s probable poison)

Did I say I was a preterist?

But, I guess everybody's a preterist to the dispensationalist who throws everything to the end of the age. When Jesus said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies....", it's pretty clear, He meant the Roman siege.

Breathe in, breathe out. "Already, not yet."

My eschatology is "amillenial", distinct from topcat54's postmillenialism. My view does not, for instance, require an early date for John's Apocalypse, which is why I tend to sit that battle out.

A better chart in pdf format.

I find dispensationalism "ungospelish" in it's assumptions and implications, for reasons I spell out briefly at the first link above, and Oswald Allis covers in much greater detail.

78 posted on 02/22/2009 1:59:03 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Lee N. Field; mountn man
And Preterism (Lee N. Field’s probable poison) was invented by Jesuit Luis De Alcasar during the Counter Reformation - unless you want to count Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Why do you have to be so negative? Why do you mock and belittle your brethren? Where is your humility and patience?

Why can't we all just get along? I think you need to check your motives, my friend.

79 posted on 02/22/2009 4:00:29 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54; mountn man; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
XS>The time of testing is forty years: 30 CE + 40 years = 70 CE

“This generation” ala Matthew 24:34.

Not sure about the “testing” part. Where is that in the Bible?

..................

This has been true for 2000 years. Christ can return at any moment. It is folly, therefore, to suggest you can time it with your Israel-centric timepiece.

Number in Scripture: Its Supernatural Design and Spiritual Significance
40 years
by
E. W. Bullinger
(1837-1913)

Yah'shua is coming at the end of the sixth millennia (day)

for the 1000 years (day) of rest and peace

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
80 posted on 02/22/2009 4:36:28 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt; mountn man; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
E. W. Bullinger

A man with many interesting theories. Sadly, he was totally sold out for the failed dispensational system. Most of his theories came about by applying the system to interpreting the Bible, not vice versa.

Bullinger's theology was extreme dispensationalism on which he wrote numerous articles which appeared in his Monthly Journal Things to Come . His name has become virtually synonymous with Hyper-dispensationalism. (Theopedia)
Yah'shua is coming at the end of the sixth millennia (day)

Another interesting theory, lots of speculation, but not really supported directly from the Bible.

for the 1000 years (day) of rest and peace

Followed by an eternity of rest and peace?

My recommendation is that if you want to study a Bullinger, try Heinrich Bullinger. Much better theology.

81 posted on 02/22/2009 4:53:16 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

” Why do you have to be so negative? Why do you mock and belittle your brethren? Where is your humility and patience?
Why can’t we all just get along? I think you need to check your motives, my friend.”

You will be contacted by my copyright lawyer.


82 posted on 02/22/2009 6:32:26 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: autumnraine

I believe it also removed God’s hand of protection over America. One prophecy I read said that they saw an evil spirit in back of obama after he was elected and the spirit said, ‘now I have access.’ I believe also that as long as George Bush was in the White House, satan didn’t have access. Now he has access to all. PRAY.


83 posted on 02/22/2009 8:33:16 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Magic Fingers

Well, I’m almost 70 and it’s increased by sooo much since I was young.


84 posted on 02/22/2009 8:39:14 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Nea Wood

I think that to mean that Israel will not cease to be again until that time. I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly “generation” meant something different from what we, today, take it to mean.

Perhaps someone whose Latin is a bit better than mine can explain how or if the meaning was lost in transliteration.


85 posted on 02/22/2009 9:04:32 PM PST by WildcatClan (Iam fimus mos ledo ventus apparatus)
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To: Marysecretary; topcat54
One prophecy I read said that they saw an evil spirit in back of 0bama after he was elected and the spirit said, ‘now I have access.’

Should I even bother to ask for book, chapter and verse?

The low hit rate of the modern soi disant "prophets" calls into doubt whether they have been called into God's presence and commissioned with a message for his ekklesia.

86 posted on 02/23/2009 5:29:23 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Lee N. Field
You will be contacted by my copyright lawyer.

Just have them file it under "pot calling kettle black".

87 posted on 02/23/2009 6:42:14 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Marysecretary; autumnraine
One prophecy I read said that they saw an ...

One prophecy I read said that Mussolini was the antichrist. Go figure.

Where do I file my complaint with the Prophets (Profits) Guild?

88 posted on 02/23/2009 6:46:16 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: WildcatClan; Nea Wood
I think that to mean that Israel will not cease to be again until that time. I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly “generation” meant something different from what we, today, take it to mean.

The word generation (Greek, genea) in the Bible means roughly what it means today; a people then living.

Jesus often addressed the “generation” of His contemporary Jews.

"But He answered and said to them, ‘An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.’" (Matt. 12:39) {The sign of Jesus’ resurrection was directly given to the generation of 1st century Jews.}

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Matt. 23:36) {Jesus was speaking about that contemporary generation of Jews.}

This is confirmed in the Old Testament:

"So the Lord's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was gone." (Numbers 32:13) {It took forty years for that generation who disobeyed God to die off in the wilderness.}

Perhaps someone whose Latin is a bit better than mine can explain how or if the meaning was lost in transliteration.

Latin??

89 posted on 02/23/2009 6:56:58 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field; mountn man
The notion of a "rapture", a catching up of believers, goes back to the Bible.

From a biblical perspective, the “rapture” is simply the resurrection and changing of the body at Christ’s Second Coming from the believer’s standpoint. Those who have trusted in God’s Messiah from all time will be raised from the dead or changed in the twinkling of an eye at His appearance. Unbelievers will also be resurrected/changed at the same time, and so all men will change before the judgment seat of Christ, aka, the white throne judgment. At this time the sheep and goats will be separated. The sheep will enter into the eternal state in the blessing of their redemption through Christ. The goats will enter into an eternity of pain and suffering.

The corruption of the “rapture” doctrine came about when folks started teaching this it was a separate event chronologically from the Second Coming.

90 posted on 02/23/2009 7:04:20 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field

Um, no. It was a word from the Lord to this person, not written in the Bible. Duh.


91 posted on 02/23/2009 7:34:22 AM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: kindred

Ohmigawd. People are really going to church without bringing their six-pound show bibles with them? Indeed, we ARE lukewarm.


92 posted on 02/23/2009 7:35:49 AM PST by ichabod1 (I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet (GOP Poet))
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To: kindred

Ohmigawd. People are really going to church without bringing their six-pound show bibles with them? Indeed, we ARE lukewarm.


93 posted on 02/23/2009 7:35:50 AM PST by ichabod1 (I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet (GOP Poet))
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To: Lee N. Field; mountn man

BTW, if you want to see how confused folks are about the “rapture,” just ask them if Abraham, Moses, or David will be “raptured”.


94 posted on 02/23/2009 8:04:10 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Marysecretary
Um, no. It was a word from the Lord to this person, not written in the Bible. Duh.

Lots of people hear voices. Why should I believe this one, especially at second (or farther) hand?

95 posted on 02/23/2009 9:29:36 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: kindred; RaceBannon; Lee N. Field
that will attack God’s Israel and bring the wrath of God on all nations that hate Israel and seek to destroy her.

Repeat after me; modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Demonstration of that truth is trivial using the Bible alone.

I once owned a car called a “Cougar”. When I examined it I saw it did not have four legs and fur. I knew then it was not a real cougar. The only thing the cat and the car had in common was the name.

96 posted on 02/23/2009 10:29:07 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Doctor Don; grumpa; Lee N. Field
Kindred, you are a preterist.

I think you meant to address grumpa.

There are two major problems with preterism. First, in order to support the notion of an A.D. 70 fulfillment of the large number of details surrounding the tribulation, preterists must use an unwarranted allegorical interpretative approach.

al•le•gor•i•cal (ăl'ĭ-gôr'ĭ-kəl, -gŏr'-) also al•le•gor•ic adj.
- Of, characteristic of, or containing allegory: an allegorical painting of Victory leading an army.

al•le•go•ry (ăl'ĭ-gôr'ē, -gōr'ē) n., pl. -ries.
1.
a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

Preterism is not based on allegorical interpretation. Anyone who asserts that it is either a) doesn’t understand preterism, or b) doesn’t understand allegories (or both).

What confuses most people is some variation on definition 2 above, symbolical interpretation. But few people deny symbolical interpretation in the Bible, e.g., the beast and great whore of Revelation are both symbolical representations of something else.

A second major error of preterism is the confusion of judgment and salvation in relation to the nation of Israel.

This has nothing to do with preterism per se. All non-dispensational/futurist views of the end times deny the dispensational view of the Church and Israel, and that there is still some future catastrophic judgment awaiting national Israel where 2/3 of those Jews living in Israel will be killed. That is merely an interpretative fantasy that some folks get to by ignoring the significance of the events of AD70 in God’s covenant program for the nations.

97 posted on 02/23/2009 10:47:01 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54; Lee N. Field; mountn man

“Why do you have to be so negative? Why do you mock and belittle your brethren? Where is your humility and patience?”

In all seriousness, I didn’t call Lee N. Field an idiot, fool, deceiver, numb scull, etc. for believing preterism (or rather amillenialism). I stated it was his poison.

Do you see the difference? A theology can be poisonous but I don’t have to belittle the person that believes it.


98 posted on 02/23/2009 11:06:01 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Lee N. Field; mountn man
In all seriousness, I didn’t call Lee N. Field an idiot, fool, deceiver, numb scull, etc. for believing preterism (or rather amillenialism). I stated it was his poison.

And who has used any of those terms, I'm just wondering?

Then of course there is the fact that you didn’t even take the time to actually figure out whether he was, in fact, a preterist. What that an exhibition of humility and patience, or were you were just looking for an opportunity to attack.

It’s not even clear you know the difference, e.g., “believing preterism (or rather amillenialism)”.

Jesus doesn’t like hypocrites.

99 posted on 02/23/2009 11:17:03 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Marysecretary; topcat54; Quix
It was a word from the Lord to this person, not written in the Bible. Duh.

Could I also suggest that you might to read R. Scott Clark's blog post series The Secret of Knowing God's Will (the most recent of which is linked here).

Much of contemporary evangelical piety (and too much contemporary Reformed piety) is taken up with the Quest for Illegitimate Religious Certainty (QIRC) and the Quest for illegitimate Religious Experience (QIRE—see Recovering the Reformed Confession for more on these two phenomena). In their own ways each is an attempt to know God and his will apart from his ordained means. The result is a two-sided tyranny.

The first aspect of this tyranny is the fear that “I haven’t heard the still, small voice of God.” This leads to paralysis. It also leads to doubt. The logic is ruthless:

1. God still speaks outside of Scripture and gives direct guidance and revelation to Christians.

2. Christian X hasn’t received such guidance and revelation.

3. Christian X is either a) not really a Christian or b) doesn’t have sufficient faith or lacks the power of the Spirit etc.

Whatever the cause, the outcome of the logic is unhappy but what if the problem is not the second premise but the first? What if the first premise is flawed? Well, of course, that is what this whole series has been arguing. In fact we do not live in the canonical period, in redemptive history. The Red Sea has been parted. The tomb is empty. The canon is closed. We’ve seen how the Spirit operates through the Word and the sacraments, how he illumines the Word and how he gives wisdom to those who ask but perhaps you’re still in bondage because you’re waiting for the still, small voice? Quoth Bob Newhart: “Stop it!”

What if God’s will for your life was already revealed? Wouldn’t that be grand? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if you weren’t trapped in a circle waiting for God to speak but never really knowing if he has “spoken”? After all, how do you know if God has spoken directly to you? Is it an intuition? A hunch? Why does he seem to “speak” to others but not to me? Are there two classes of Christians? (those who receive special, extra-biblical revelations and those who do not?)

There are other questions the answers to which help relieve the crisis. Why is it that what God says so often sounds like what my revelation-receiving friend already thought? It’s remarkable how often God seems to agree with my revelation-receiving, still-small-voice hearing friend. As we read the whole of 1 Corinthians we see that Paul was quite opposed to the idea of two-classes of Christians. This is the problem with all forms of the “second blessing” theology. It necessarily creates two classes of Christians and yet it’s exactly contrary to Paul’s whole argument. All of us are members of the one body. Further, we’re all members of the one body, part of the one loaf of bread, as it were, in the post-canonical period.

The good news is that God has revealed himself in his Word. His will for your life is revealed. I can tell you what it is right now: trust Christ, love God, and love your neighbor (Matt 5).

....

One glorious consequence of the biblical and Reformed doctrine of sola Scriptura is that we don’t have to pay attention either to the upper or lower case prophets. We are free in Christ. This argument goes back to the Reformed rejection of the Anabaptist movement. The Anabaptists replied by calling us “dead orthodox.” Fine. Whatever. Bluntly, if being “led by the Spirit” means running around Europe claiming revelations and starting revolutions (see Münster) then we can live without that thank you very much.

Of course “keeping in step with the Spirit” (Gal 5:22) has nothing to do with that sort of fanaticism. It means producing the fruit of the Spirit and we know what that is because God revealed it to everyone in Galatians 5! You don’t need a special gift to read God’s Word, trust it, and obey it. We’re free in Christ to obey God’s publicly revealed will and we’re free to ignore the spurious claims of all sorts of prophets. We’re not missing out. They don’t have anything we need. What we need is the moral will of God which is plainly revealed in the Word. What we need is the work of the Spirit to illumine that Word to us and to give us wisdom and the self-appointed prophets don’t have anything to do with that. You and I are free from the tyranny of human opinion because we are bound to the Word of God.

And a ping to Quixie, who should absorb this too.

100 posted on 02/23/2009 11:18:00 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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