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Prophecy Pundits are at it Again
American Vision ^ | February 23, 2009 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54

Calvary Chapel of Chino California held “ The Southern California Prophecy Conference” last week (Feb. 20–22, 2009). I wonder if those who came to hear speakers like Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, Paul McGuire, David Hocking, David Reagan, and Ed Hindson were aware that Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel network of churches, made some very definite predictions about when the “rapture” was going to take place.

While cleaning up my office, I came across a cassette tape of a sermon Chuck Smith preached on December 31, 1979. He told his very accepting audience on that day that the rapture would take place in 1981. The former Soviet Republic going into Afghanistan in August of 1978 was the prelude to what Smith considered to be a full-force invasion of the Middle East. It would not be long before “Russia” would invade Israel, Smith told his audience. All of this was said to have been “predicted” by Ezekiel 2600 years ago.

Smith went on to claim in his end-of-the-year message of 30 years ago that because of ozone depletion Revelation 16:8 would be fulfilled during the soon-coming Great Tribulation: “And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.” According to Smith, Halley’s Comet would pass near the earth in 1986 and would wreck atmospheric havoc for those left behind as debris from its million-mile tail pummeled the earth. Halley’s Comet did appear in 1986 with no damage done to our planet. (A similar prelude to the end had been predicted based on the so-called Jupiter Effect.[1]) ...

(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; eschatology; preterism; prophecy; tribulation
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To: Hebrews 11:6; raynearhood
Sorry. I got tangled up in the thread. Gary North was the originator (I believe) of the term "pessimillennialism".

"Biblically optimistic" has to do with the measurable positive effect the gospel will have in the world over the course of history.

101 posted on 02/25/2009 5:56:19 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
Thanks for the correction, although the term as you now explain it, and as discussed at the website you provided, still doesn't ring right to me. It is not the Bible that will triumph but rather its Author, who uses His Word among other tools.

But you go ahead and don't bother about me.

102 posted on 02/25/2009 6:06:21 PM PST by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Iscool; airborne
Good eschatology requires good hermeneutics. The entire passage in context, with notes:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.(bringing swift, unexepected destruction) While they (that is not "you" so, those who don't know) are saying, "Peace and safety!" ("Hey life is good, there's peace and we are safe") then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child (Paul, here, gives another description of what the day of the Lord will bring - that is destruction that is swift and unexpected), and they (same they) will not escape(all the unrighteous will be destroyed). But you, brethren (the church), are not in darkness (following the literally hundreds of similar uses of darkness in the Bible - darkness is lost to sin - the church is in the light, or saved), that the day would overtake you like a thief (the day of the Lord won't bring swift destruction to the 'sons of Light'); for you are all sons of light and sons of day (see?). We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober(don't be overcome by darkness, remain active in the light).
The 'thief in the night' is swift destruction, not the 'rapture' of believers. For a thorough study as to why it does mean that, go here. Granted, I did the study, but I promise... it's thorough.
103 posted on 02/25/2009 7:19:18 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: topcat54; Hebrews 11:6
Sorry. I got tangled up in the thread. Gary North was the originator (I believe) of the term "pessimillennialism".

And so, for posterity's sake, it should be pointed out that the source of confusion was.... me.
104 posted on 02/25/2009 7:34:15 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: topcat54; TaraP; Quix; Smittie; xjcsa; Iscool; Lee N. Field; Frumanchu; raynearhood

The Thanksgiving/Christmas illustration was to point out how it works that you have “stage setting” for Christmas, before Thanksgiving takes place.

The illustration was meant to show how the Rapture can have no signs, yet the Tribulation, itself can have all sorts of signs and prophecies — along with — the “stage setting” (or precursor events), which are *not* prophecies, in and of themselves. And it was an illustration to show that “stage setting” can occur prior to the Rapture, the “stage setting” that has to do with items that will be fulfilled only “inside” the Tribulation.

As I said, when a prophecy is given, it doesn’t just “happen” without precursor events leading up to the *actual prophetic event* itself. So, we see the “precursor events” for what will “actually take place” inside the Tribulation.

Therefore, you’ve got the “stage setting” (of the precursor events) of the Tribulation times — which then tells you that the Rapture is close to happening, because the Rapture will be the *first thing* on the agenda, before the Tribulation happens.

An example of this is, very simply, the stopping of the sacrifice and the Antichrist in the Holy Place, in the Temple. That would be the “prophetic event”. Now, what are the “precursor events” — to that? Well, one would be, you have to have Israel there, in order to have Israel build a Temple. And we *do see* that “precursor event* (of Israel existing) did happen. Now, it could have happened inside the Tribulation. The Bible didn’t say. But, as God “chose it in history” — it happened before the Tribulation. And that’s fine. The existence of Israel is a “precursor event” that God has allowed us to see that what is told in “prophecy” that will happen inside the Tribulation — is being “set up” now.

But, even *before* that — if you are looking at a sequence of precursor events that happen in an order of some sort — if you “stop sacrifices”, you then have to have them going. If you have them going, you have to have a Temple. If you have a Temple, then you have to have Israel in control of the land, to be able to build a Temple. If you build a Temple, you will have indications of “building one” — by things that “happen before” you actually start building — like “plans”, like “research” like some kind of “organization” of some sort that will “put it into action”.

And that’s what we see right now, an organization that has taken on the responsibility of doing all that is necessary — right now (as of *today*) in order to build the Temple when they are able to do so. [Of course, when they will be able to do so, is when they come to the final status peace agreement with the Muslims...].

So — in the “long run” — one precursor event is the establishment of the nation of Israel (which sets up a whole series of subsequent precursor events just from that one). In this case, by what we saw in history, it happened (the establishment of Israel) not inside the Tribulation (which it could have) but it happened prior to the Tribulation. Okay, now they are “in the land”. Next, you have to have a Temple, but even before that — you have to have plans for the Temple before you have it starting to be built. The plans have already been in the works for many years now. The Temple instruments and implements have already been created. The attire has been created. The “actual location” of where it’s going to be has been researched and there are three locations that have been specified. It remains to be seen which one of the three will be the one.

[*** as a side note here, of the three locations, two of them can leave the Dome of the Rock in place, while the third one would have to replace the Dome of the Rock. From what I can see, from the Bible (some “indications” there), it seems that the Temple Mount will be split and part of it will be under the control of the Gentiles, while another part will be under the control of the Jews [the Muslims would qualify in the “picture” of part of the Temple Mount being under the control of the Gentiles...]. Now, of those three, the only one that “fits the picture” for the location of the Temple — is the “northern” location. That is directly across from the Golden Gate, or the Eastern Gate, and it leaves the Dome of the Rock intact and undisturbed. But, the Bible doesn’t mention the Dome of the Rock (as to whether it is there or not there), but the Bible does indicate that part of the standard Temple area (the Court of the Gentiles) will be under Gentile control and not under Israel’s control, which seems to indicate a splitting of the Temple Mount between Jews and Muslims. ***]

Back to my comments from up above...

So, that’s how you have “precursor events” (or “stage setting”) prior to the prophecies that *actually take place* — inside the Tribulation time.

And since we *do see* these precursor events taking place, which relate *directly* to the prophetic events inside the Tribulation — then that tells us that the Rapture is close (because these other things are happening *right now*) — and the Rapture takes place *before* those prophetic events, of which we see the *specific precursor events happening right now.

Therefore, you see — these are *not* prophetic events related to the Rapture. They are not even the “actual prophetic events” themselves. But, they *are* the things that *have to happen first* — before the prophetic events take place — that are *inside* the Tribulation. But, as far as what prophetic events take place *prior* to the Tribulation — there are *none* — and hence the “doctrine of imminence” that Jesus can come *at any time*.

Mind you, even the “precursor events” (that you know must happen in any “human endeavor” — like “building the Temple”) — do *not* have to happen prior to the Rapture. That’s not what is being said. BUT, once we *do see* some precursor events (of those actual prophetic events that will happen *inside* the Tribulation) — then we know that the Rapture is all the closer, as we see the direct precursor events that will lead *directly* to the *actual prophetic events*.

And somewhat related to the above, what you have in the past, let’s say this last 1/2 a century, with prophecy teachers — is that a lot of them have been talking about the “precursor events” — and also — about the prophetic events. It may *not have been clear* to some people reading these guys that they distinguish between the “prophetic events” that the Bible talks about — being *inside* the Tribulation, while they talk about the “precursor events” (which are *not* prophecy, but simply things on a human scale that “lead up to prophetic events) as happening *right now*. These “precursor events” have been going on continuously all through the last 1/2 century and progressing and building and coming closer to what will happen — per the *prophetic event* — inside the Tribulation.

I think too many people have been *confused* about the talk which has to do with *stage setting* — and thinking that this has to do with the actual prophecies in the Bible that happen during the Tribulation time. The Tribulation time is not here yet. The Christians are still here and have not been Raptured. The Antichrist has not been revealed (and I mean *REVEALED* and not a “guessing game*... LOL...). Hence the Tribulation has not started.

So, it would pay for Christians to make a very good and clear distinction between the “stage setting” of the “precursor events” which will happen prior to the Tribulation (and have been, i.e., the “establishment of the nation of Israel”) — and — the *actual prophetic events* of the Tribulation time, itself.


105 posted on 02/25/2009 8:17:42 PM PST by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; TaraP; Smittie; xjcsa; Iscool; Lee N. Field; Frumanchu; raynearhood
As I said, when a prophecy is given, it doesn’t just “happen” without precursor events leading up to the *actual prophetic event* itself. So, we see the “precursor events” for what will “actually take place” inside the Tribulation.

But the fundamental problem with the theory still remains, you have no way of identifying these alleged “precursor events” with any degree of certainty. So, as I said before, you can never really know whether it is Thanksgiving approaching or the 4th of July. SO what's the point? There is none. All you are left with is the certainty of speculation.

[Again, I'm only assuming the futurist framework for discussion purposes. In reality I do not believe there is any biblical evidence for a future national Israel, temple, sacrifices, “antichrist in the holy place”, etc.]

An example of this is, very simply, the stopping of the sacrifice and the Antichrist in the Holy Place, in the Temple. That would be the “prophetic event”. Now, what are the “precursor events” — to that? Well, one would be, you have to have Israel there, in order to have Israel build a Temple.

But again, you cannot tell for sure that this Israel and (if ever built) this temple is THE Israel and temple of futurist antichrist fame. You have no way of knowing. So, even if you see these things (or think you see them) it could merely be self-deception on your part.

And that’s what we see right now, an organization that has taken on the responsibility of doing all that is necessary

So what? Prove the prophetic significance of these particular events. You can't.

106 posted on 02/25/2009 8:39:04 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: raynearhood

Thanks for the link, what is the title and artist off the picture at the end of the blog.


107 posted on 02/25/2009 9:03:42 PM PST by ReformedBeckite
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To: Star Traveler

VERY EXCELLENT.

THX.


108 posted on 02/25/2009 9:17:15 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: ReformedBeckite
Jean Cousin's The Last Judgement. I also hope you enjoyed the Kirk Cameron picture. It was the pièce de résistance of my article... I believe at least.
109 posted on 02/25/2009 9:23:12 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: topcat54; Star Traveler; TaraP; Alamo-Girl; airborne; American in Israel; AnimalLover; auggy; ...
ABSURDITY springs forth on the monitor yet again!

". . . you cannot tell for sure
that this Israel
and (if ever built)
this temple
is THE Israel
and temple
of futurist
antichrist fame.
You have no way of knowing.
So, even if you see
these things
(or think you see them)
it could merely be
self-deception
on your part.

[Stifling GOITTM—Guffaws Of Incredulity To The Max]
Sometimes I get the impression that some naysaying Calvinists’ hands detach themselves and float over to the keyboard while the individuals are utterly comatose in the deepest sleep. It’s hard to explain the absurdity of some of some of these word combinations, otherwise.

". . . you cannot tell for sure

[Obvious projection, here]

that this Israel

[Oh, My! Yes!
OF COURSE!
I was forgetting
About the Israel
Hiding under the Mayan ruins
Oh, and the other one
Hiding under Ankor Wat
Right, and the 3rd one under
The Forbidden City in Beijing!
And didn’t they find a 4th one
In one of those gold mines
In South Africa?

Of course, all those duplicate
Mt’s Of Olives
Scheduled to split
Zech 14:4
With half the mountain
Moving South and half moving North
Was no doubt quite tricky to duplicate
In all those duplicate Israels.

Oh, RIGHT! Nero or some such
Arranged all that
With Stargate SG-1 help in 70AD
It just takes special Calvinist glasses
And special Calvinist faith
To SEE the resulting huge valley
That formed from the
Purely spiritual, very brief
Thief-in-the-night visit of
Christ’s disembodied sandals touching
That Mount of Olives
--the one in the authentic
Holy Land—between the Red Sea
And Turkey.

and (if ever built)

Ahhhhhh yes! Calvinists have arranged
For ALMIGHTY
NEVER CHANGING
NEVER LYING
UTTERLY FAITHFUL
NO JOT OR TITTLE CHANGING
ALMIGHTY GOD
To begin to FORGET
HIS PROMISES
AND HIS UNCHANGING WORD!
Soooooooooooo
Clever of them!

[that] this temple
is THE Israel
and temple
of futurist
antichrist fame.

Oh, of course!
How could Bible Believing
CHRISTIANS be so silly!
Why one of them must be
OThuga’s Temple that he’s
Hiding under the Masonic
Denver Airport!
And another such Temple
Must be the one Puhlousey’s
Hiding under that gay bathhouse
Hidden under that hill just
Just North of the Golden Gate Bridge.
And no doubt, the other one’s
The one Harry Reid has hidden
Under that Casino in Las Vegas.

You have no way of knowing.

Yeah, I suppose
If folks couldn’t
READ THE WORD OF GOD
Or hear the still small voice of Holy Spirit
Or BELIEVE GOD!
Or TRUST GOD!
Or WALK BY FAITH IN GOD!
Or compare Bible Prophecy
With newspaper headlines!
AND IF they all had lobotomies
It COULD theoretically be
Slightly difficult to tell.

So, even if you see
these things
(or think you see them)

Is this some weird application
Of that verse about
“walking by faith, not by sight?”
Or is this Bible reading
In Alice’s rabbit hole?
Oh, I get it! . . .
If Believers READ THE BIBLE
And THINK IT’S TRUE
They have to realize
That everything in Scripture
Is not what it seems to be.[/sar]

it could merely be
self-deception
on your part.

I think I have to concede
The paragon Olympic class
Expertise demonstrated
Regarding ‘self-deception.’
Honor to whom honor is due!

110 posted on 02/25/2009 10:26:35 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Yer funny.

Incidentally, its more the Presbyterian Calvinists that believe in replacement theology that believe that way. We Baptist Calvinists are listening for that trumpet blast any day! Maybe even tonight.

:)


111 posted on 02/25/2009 10:32:03 PM PST by Blogger (Christians- Remember Nineveh.)
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To: Blogger

Oh, I know.

And I apologize . . . sort of . . .

But if they cn distorte SCRIPTURE so far out of whack . . .

I figure I can distort things about Calvinists all out of whack . . . . sometimes . . . trying to speak their language and all . . .

[tee hee /sar]


112 posted on 02/25/2009 10:33:55 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Must be one of those believers in DeBer. You know, the religion of peace in comfort worshiping Te DeBer. ;^)


113 posted on 02/25/2009 10:52:47 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

Sounds like a REVELATION to me!

LOL.


114 posted on 02/25/2009 10:55:28 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54
So, even if you see these things (or think you see them) it could merely be self-deception on your part.

How does any believer know anything is veritable?

Through faith alone in Christ alone.

Obviously the AntiChrist was not the person referenced in Jerusalem in 70 AD, when soldiers removed every stone from atop another. Surely nobody here would consider such a thing as fulfilling that prophecy, do they?

115 posted on 02/25/2009 11:02:26 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Quix

Well done, Dear Heart Quix.

Romans 8:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


116 posted on 02/26/2009 1:23:26 AM PST by Joya (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: Blogger
We Baptist Calvinists are listening for that trumpet blast any day!

If your saying we Reformed Baptists are dispensational, well, consider yourself introduced to one that isn't. John Piper and crew, too.
117 posted on 02/26/2009 4:21:35 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: Quix

118 posted on 02/26/2009 5:30:34 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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To: raynearhood

I didn’t say that. At my seminary, there were very few dispensationalists. But, I would not broad brush all Calvinists as non-dispensationalists. It isn’t a Calvinist thing per se. As a matter of fact, I find it harmonious with the Sovereignty of God over history.


119 posted on 02/26/2009 5:32:11 AM PST by Blogger (Christians- Remember Nineveh.)
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To: topcat54

Was my previous post directed at you?
I thought not.


120 posted on 02/26/2009 5:50:55 AM PST by woollyone (I believe God created me- you believe you're related to monkeys. Of course I laughed at you!)
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To: Quix

can’t

stop

laughing


121 posted on 02/26/2009 5:55:53 AM PST by woollyone (I believe God created me- you believe you're related to monkeys. Of course I laughed at you!)
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To: Quix
Bad bad Puddy Cat....always trying to gobble up the dispensationalists!
122 posted on 02/26/2009 7:20:46 AM PST by Esther Ruth
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To: woollyone

THANKS.

Then one of the objectives has been reached!

LOL.

Though I don’t think God is very amused with the idea that He won’t keep His promises to the blood children/Nation of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


123 posted on 02/26/2009 7:22:58 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: woollyone; TaraP
Was my previous post directed at you? I thought not.

Well, by that standard, was this thread an open invitation for your comments?

I think it's called fair game.

124 posted on 02/26/2009 7:25:01 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Quix

125 posted on 02/26/2009 7:25:55 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
Christ's “appearing” is judgment day.

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ,who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: (2 Tim. 4:1)

Judgment day is after the thousand years.

What'd you do with the preceeding part of the chapter??? The chapter doesn't start at verse 11...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Someone's going to reign with Jesus for a thousand years...Apparently it won't be you...

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I'll be taking part in the first ressurection...

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Hey, there I am...I see me...I won't be having any part of that judgement you'll be at...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These guys will be judged according to their works...That ain't me...Going to be millions of Catholics at this judgement as well...Good luck to ya...

My judgement takes place a thousand years before this:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

My bad works will be burned up and that fire burning those works will save me...

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.

You don't get rewarded for being bad...I may get a few rewards...I may get none...But I'll be there nonetheless...

Oh, and BTW, Jesus Christ appeared numerous times in the Ot...And His appearing takes place more times in the NT that you have figured out...

126 posted on 02/26/2009 8:10:11 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cvengr
[Quix color, bold and ALL CAPS emphases]

Have learned on FR that what I thought was very basic OBVIOUS Scripture . . . some folks would consider otherwise.

The absurd notion that most of the END TIMES prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD etc. is just mind bogglingly UNBIBLICAL-TO-THE-MAX.

It's hard for me to conceive that there are even folks who dare to think of themselves as "Christians" who would dare to imagine that God would fail to fulfill even the tiniest of His promises to Israel literally.

Am reading an interesting book:

FROM IRAQ TO ARMAGEDDON: The Final Showdown Approaches

by Keith Intrater.

He notes . . . ---------------------------------------------

p90:

Romans 11:12,15
If their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

If their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

---

"Most Jewish people, because of their rejection of Yeshua, have been like branches cut off of their own tree. The gentile church has been like branches grafted into the tree of faith (see Rom 11:16-22). However, we are to believe that the Jewis people will return and be grafted into the faith of their own Messiah--the most spiritually "natural thing" for them to do."

Romans 11:23
They also, if they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted in, for God is ABLE to graft them in again. [Qx emphasis]

Not only is God able to bring the Jewish people back to faith in Yeshua, He has promised that He WILL DO SO. [Qx emphasis].

Romans 11:26a
And so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.
[QX emphasis]

"Notice the words 'and so' in this vese. It's not just that all Israel will be saved but that something will happen which will lead to that salvation. What is that something which leads to the 'and so'? It is the change in the attitude of the Church toward Israel's destiny:

Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest you should be WISE IN YOUR OWN OPINIONS, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullnes of the Gentiles has come in. And so . . .
[Qx emphasis]

As the Church receives the revelation of the end-times restoration of Israel, it will pave the way for Israel to come to salvation, which in turn will lead t the second coming of Yeshua.

In the meantime, we have a paradoxical position toward the Jewish people who have not yet eceived the Lord. It is part negative and part positive.

Romans 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE, but concerning the election they are BELOVED for THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS.

page 91

The Remnant Within Israel

I have great love for the body of Messianic believers in Israel, which I see as the spiritual remnant of the nation of Israel. The very existence of this remnant has great prophetic significance.

. . .

The third group is the Messianic Jews, those who are Israeli citizens, Jewish and believers in Yeshua. This group currently numbers around seven housand. It is this group that I am primarily identified with. I believe they have a key role to play in the Kingdom of God.

. . .

p92

We know that Paul's answer tot he question whether the prophetic purposes of Israel have been made void is "CERTAINLY NOT! (Se Rm 11:1). But how could the destiny of Israel not be canceled, considering the rejection of the Messiah and the punishment from God? Here Paul's answer is also clear: The Remant.

Throughout history there was always a minority of true believers within the greater nation of Israel. Despite the sins of the nation, that believing remnant carried within it (in seed form) THE DIVINE DESTINY OF THE NATION.

Every nation, in fact, has a propheticcalling from God.That calling is not seen in the overall population of the nation, but in the community of true believers found within the nation. The prophetic calling of the United States is not seen in the motion pictures from Holywood. That of South Africa is not seen in the racial problems; of Germany, not in Nazism; of Russia, not in communism, etc. The destiny of a nation and its covenant with God are found within the remnant of believers within the nation.

Th same is true in Israel. The source of its destiny is not in Tel Aviv discos, nor political parties, nor rabbinic councils. It is in Yeshua, and in the community of citizens that believe in Him. If one wants to understad the destiny of Israel, he must look not to the larer unbelieving population of Israel, but to the core community of believers within the nation. Gentile Christians become confused by not making this distinction. Either they reject God's purposes for Israel altogether, or they try to make something overly spiritual of Israel's pioneers and politicians.

. . .

The way tohave a balanced theology concerning israel and its destiny is to consider the Messianic jewish community within Israel. Paul wrote [p93] that the way to understand God's plan for Israel was TO COMPARE THE FAITHFUL REMNANT IN THE TIME OF ELIJAH TO THE MESSIANIC JEWISH COMMUNITY OF HIS DAY.

Romans 11:2,4-5
God has not cast away His people whom He oreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Eliljah . . .
what does the divine response say to him? 'I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.'
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Even so, as it was in thetime of Elijah, so it is today. The destiny of Israel, God's plan forthe nation, is found within the remnant. Even Elijah was confused when he saw that such a huge majority of the nation of Israel were not believers. However, God told him not to look at the unbelieving majority but t the believing minority.

In Elijah's time, in Paul's time, and EVEN SO AT THIS PRESENT TIME--there was a remnant and there still is a remnant. AND HOW MANY ARE IN THAT REMNANT? SEVEN THOUSAND.

In the time of Elijah, there was a remnant of seven thousand believers within Israel who carried with them the destiny of the nation. Today there is also a remnant within Israel numbering about seven thousand. This remnant is part of bringing us to a new 'age of Elijah' in our generation. God had to point out to Elijah the importance of the seve thousand faithful ones. The revelation of the remnant gave him hope, faith, and a better understanding of God's purpose. I believe God is trying to point out the importance of the Messianic remnant within Israel today as well.

p95

The prophetic call for the community of faith to recognize the place of Israel is not a racist preference for the Jewish people, bu rather a SUBMISSION TO THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. ,FONT COLOR=NAVY> It is a recognition of Jerusalem as the seat of HIS earthly authority and a recognition of Yeshua as King of the Jews.

I believe Intrater is quite right. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

It is even somewhat conceivable that his Biblical insights COULD be a path or some fair-minded REPLACEMENTARIAN Calvinsts to acquire a BIBLICAL understanding of prophecy in our era. . . . perhaps even in the nick of time, at the rate Biblical prophecy is being increasingly fulfilled.

127 posted on 02/26/2009 8:18:35 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Alamo-Girl; airborne; American in Israel; AnimalLover; auggy; backhoe; backslacker; Baraonda; ...

END TIMES PING LIST PING TO POST #

127

RE Israel and the remnant of believers in Israel as a major key in Biblical prophecy fulfillment.


128 posted on 02/26/2009 8:21:25 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Esther Ruth

INDEED.

Thankfully, only with illogical UNBiblical absurdities!

What a wonderfully apt cartoon!

ROTFLOL.


129 posted on 02/26/2009 8:23:59 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Lee N. Field

What a confirmation!

It’s been pretty easy to construe, to perceive REPLACEMENTARIAN CALVINISTS as barking chihuahuas about END TIMES PROPHECIES.


130 posted on 02/26/2009 8:25:43 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Blogger; Quix

“baptist calvinist” - good term, but it’s not exact enough. My current church would claim it as their own, as they are amillenial and preterist, yet ‘baptist’.

A longer term but maybe better is “dispensational sovereignist”, which is how I’d describe my views.


131 posted on 02/26/2009 8:33:15 AM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: fishtank

Hmmmmmm

I think I’ll just tiptoe quietly away from those machinations.


132 posted on 02/26/2009 8:36:01 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

The Calvinist glasses don’t work as well as the “Amillennial Shades”, which are needed to read that great new book called “The Preterist Code”.

Tom Hanks is memorizing the script right now.


133 posted on 02/26/2009 8:37:08 AM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: Quix

A “dispensational sovereignist” is quite different from an “Experimental Predestinarian”, as well.

...with apologies to Jody Dillow’s book “The Reign of the Servant Kings”.


134 posted on 02/26/2009 8:39:33 AM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: Blogger; raynearhood
Incidentally, its more the Presbyterian Calvinists that believe in replacement theology that believe that way. We Baptist Calvinists are listening for that trumpet blast any day! Maybe even tonight.

Well that a confusing distinction, even for a Baptist. :-)

Believe it or not, even those who subscribe to the misnamed “replacement theology” (aka covenant theology, so I guess that’s me) are looking for the “trumpet blast” signaling Christ’s Second Coming.

Many Reformed Baptists also accept covenant theology over and against dispensationalism.

135 posted on 02/26/2009 8:40:43 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: fishtank

Oh dear!


136 posted on 02/26/2009 8:42:40 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood
Good eschatology requires good hermeneutics.

Now you didn't learn that from scripture...You learned that from someone who doesn't like what the scripture says in plain language...

The 'thief in the night' is swift destruction, not the 'rapture' of believers. For a thorough study as to why it does mean that, go here. Granted, I did the study, but I promise... it's thorough.

Well, I gave your man, Herman Utics a fair shot...Here's one of the things he said...

That is, that on the Day of the Lord Christ will "steal away" the righteous before or during a period of tribulation and leave the unrighteous behind to endure the tribulation; or all will experience the tribulation, the righteous will be "stolen away" immediately afterwards, leaving the unrighteous to live during the post-tribulation reign of the anti-christ.

Now this is where your buddy Herman fails...Jesus doesn't come to steal anyone from anywhere...Jesus is NOT a thief...He shows up at a time when He's not expected, like a thief would...

But He doesn't show up as a thief to His flock of sheep...That's the point of the whole passage...

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Jesus tells us what's going to happen...

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

And we know the approximate time when Jesus will show up...And He won't be coming as a thief because we're watching for Him...

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

That's certainly what it will appear like to those that are 'left behind'...That's because they won't see Jesus...He doesn't step foot on earth...We go 'up' and meet Him in the air...They're going to think we got stolen, by someone, or something...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

You guys figure a thief will come rolling in with the lights flashing and the horn blasting, screaming out the car window as he approaches???

Naw, but thanks anyway...I'll skip Herman Utics and trying to figure out what the scripture means...I'll just read it and believe what it says instead...

137 posted on 02/26/2009 8:44:37 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: fishtank

“Experimental Predestinarian

Goodness.

That sounds like Alice and the Red Queen loose in the rabbit hole’s chemistry lab!


138 posted on 02/26/2009 8:44:43 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54

TaraP doesn’t mind and that’s all that matters.


139 posted on 02/26/2009 8:46:44 AM PST by woollyone (I believe God created me- you believe you're related to monkeys. Of course I laughed at you!)
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To: raynearhood

“Future Grace by John Piper

Written by Gary Gilley

Piper likes to shock. He makes statements, and creates phrases (e.g. Christian hedonism) that unravels his readers. His goal is to get our attention and provide a basis for changing the way we think. It works, but it also confuses. While I appreciate much of what Piper says, I have found that his readers interpret him in many ways. This is always true to some degree – we all put or own spin on what we read and hear, but Piper’s writings seem to lend themselves to this problem more than most. Why? Because he says things so many different ways. About the time you think you know what he is saying he addresses an issue from a different direction and leaves you scratching your head. Or he attacks a time-honored position of Bible teachers, replaces it with his own, then turns around later and softens his blows – only to attack afresh in a future chapter. Such tactics are common place in Future Grace.

The book opens with a full-fledged assault on living the Christian life motivated by gratitude (he calls it the “debtor’s ethic”). This is unfortunate, surely there are bigger demons to exorcise from the Christian community (later, he will admit that gratitude is not all bad, as long as it is not taken too far, see pp. 48,49 and chapter 7). He replaces gratitude with “living by faith in future grace.” Surely no one questions that the Christian life is lived by faith, but why he had to behead the straw man of gratitude to prove this point escapes me. Faith and gratitude are not enemies, they are friends. Both should be embraced.

It is impossible to miss Piper’s primary point – living faith in future grace. He repeats this phrase hundreds of times throughout the book, as often as ten to fourteen times on a given page. He repeats it at every opportunity, at every turn. I felt like the people of Israel who had eaten so much manna that it was making them sick. But like the people of Israel, I could live with this. My struggles run deeper.

I believe Piper’s mistake began with the title. He attempts to reduce the whole Christian life down to one component, “future grace.” This is an unfortunate and narrow-minded deduction. Once this premise is established he then attempts (forces) to reconcile everything else in Scripture around this thesis. It cannot be done and the result is a distortion of the Christian life.

Rather than writing about the privilege of placing our faith in God as one of the many important elements of living for Him (remember that Paul even spoke of faith, hope and love, and the greatest was love), Piper becomes too narrow and actually makes claims for faith that cannot be substantiated. Even the phrase “faith in future grace” is fraught with problems. Is all of the Christian life a faith in future grace? Is there no looking back with gratitude to God’s faithfulness (Piper, remember, calls this the debtor’s ethic). What about the present? Is God doing nothing now? Is everything in the future? When the future comes will it not be the present, a present in which, according to Piper, we will then be looking to the future? And do we really place our faith in future grace or do we place our faith in the God who gives grace in all tenses (past, present and future)? Undoubted, our author would agree that our faith is in God, not in “grace,” but he seldom says so. Instead, it is “faith in future grace.” This troubles me for it is not unlike the theology of the Word of Faith movement that believes faith to be a force that can be controlled and manipulated through the right methods. Piper would surely deny this, but he comes dangerously close to such a view in Future Grace (see chapters 6,8,12). Not only does he use confusing terminology but he often speaks of unleashing power through faith (see chapter 12 especially pp.161,162 for one example, also p.185).

Piper has good chapters on anxiety (3), grace (5) and patience (13). But he places the Christian under the Law (chapters 12,19) and his view of the gospel left me with grave concerns. In chapter 15 he presents a very confusing gospel message. He says nothing about repentance of sin but adds “delight” in God as a prerequisite for conversion. He also confuses, I believe, salvation with sanctification. Piper states, “I say that saving faith must ‘include’ delight. Delight in the glory of God is not the whole of what faith is. But I think that without it, faith is dead” (p.203). So now the poor sinner must not only trust God but must delight in him before he can be converted. Incredible!! In addition, our eternal salvation, according to Piper, is dependent upon how well we live as Christians. “Jesus said, if you don’t fight lust, you won’t go to heaven. . . . If we don’t fight lust we lose our soul. . . . Faith delivers from hell, and the faith that delivers from hell delivers from lust. . . . Faith alone is necessary for justification, but the purity that confirms faith’s reality is also necessary for final salvation” (pp. 332,333). Wow, this certainly sounds likes works to me.

Future Grace has some excellent material but it is so entwined with questionable statements and theology that it is not worth the struggle to filter through it. Additionally, if swallowed without discernment this volume could do great damage.”


140 posted on 02/26/2009 8:49:28 AM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: fishtank

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/book-reviews/4-christian-living/127-future-grace-by-john-piper


141 posted on 02/26/2009 8:49:46 AM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: Quix

ROTSK is a great book by Jody Dillow.


142 posted on 02/26/2009 8:50:36 AM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: fishtank

Thanks.

However . . . given my long list already . . .


143 posted on 02/26/2009 8:51:57 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Right on the money...And all those who live in Israel as Israelis, may not all be Israel...


144 posted on 02/26/2009 8:52:14 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

INDEED.

. . . ANY MORE THAN

ALL THOSE living in America are not Christians.

And, that’s a point he made in that chapter. I just didn’t retype that part.

. . . any more than all those standing in garages are all cars.

I thought he had some quite Biblical and useful insights.

And it is interesting that the number of the remnant is about the same size. Fascinating.

Will be interesting to watch it all unfold.


145 posted on 02/26/2009 8:54:32 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool
What'd you do with the preceeding part of the chapter??? The chapter doesn't start at verse 11...

No problem there.

Someone's going to reign with Jesus for a thousand years...Apparently it won't be you...

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Glad you are’t in charge of my soul.

In any event, Rev. 20 says nothing at all about Christ reigning on the earth. The “thousand years” happens to be the time period in which we are presently living. It goes from the “first resurrection” (John 5:24,25; Eph. 2:6) and binding of Satan (Matt. 12:26-30) until Christ’s appearing and judgment of all men at the white throne (2 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 20:11).

I'll be taking part in the first ressurection...

All who have a part in the first resurrection (Christ’s resurrection) will be saved.

Oh, and BTW, Jesus Christ appeared numerous times in the Ot...And His appearing takes place more times in the NT that you have figured out...

Hmmm. Does that mean you believe Christ “appeared” in AD70 when Jerusalem was sacked and the temple destroyed?

Or are you denying the bodily appearing of Christ at His Second Coming when He judges the world and delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:23-25)?

146 posted on 02/26/2009 8:54:53 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Iscool; Lee N. Field
Right on the money...And all those who live in Israel as Israelis, may not all be Israel...

All the true sons of Abraham have received the true circumcision and are part of the true Israel of God. Cf. Gal 3:28,29; Rom. 2:28,29; Eph. 2:19; Gal. 6:15,16.

147 posted on 02/26/2009 8:59:08 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: woollyone; TaraP
TaraP doesn’t mind and that’s all that matters.

You are more than welcome to productively contribute to this thread.

148 posted on 02/26/2009 9:00:15 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

Does your combative nature adequately puff you up?


149 posted on 02/26/2009 9:08:48 AM PST by woollyone (I believe God created me- you believe you're related to monkeys. Of course I laughed at you!)
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To: Cvengr
How does any believer know anything is veritable? Through faith alone in Christ alone.

And so how does that help you decide whether antichrist is alive and well on planet earth? Or that modern Israel is the fulfillment of specific Bible prophecies? Or, how would that cause a pastor to make a comment like, "I'm convinced that the Lord is coming for His Church before the end of 1981." based largely on his views about modern Israel?

150 posted on 02/26/2009 9:10:34 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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