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Prophecy Pundits are at it Again
American Vision ^ | February 23, 2009 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54

Calvary Chapel of Chino California held “ The Southern California Prophecy Conference” last week (Feb. 20–22, 2009). I wonder if those who came to hear speakers like Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, Paul McGuire, David Hocking, David Reagan, and Ed Hindson were aware that Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel network of churches, made some very definite predictions about when the “rapture” was going to take place.

While cleaning up my office, I came across a cassette tape of a sermon Chuck Smith preached on December 31, 1979. He told his very accepting audience on that day that the rapture would take place in 1981. The former Soviet Republic going into Afghanistan in August of 1978 was the prelude to what Smith considered to be a full-force invasion of the Middle East. It would not be long before “Russia” would invade Israel, Smith told his audience. All of this was said to have been “predicted” by Ezekiel 2600 years ago.

Smith went on to claim in his end-of-the-year message of 30 years ago that because of ozone depletion Revelation 16:8 would be fulfilled during the soon-coming Great Tribulation: “And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.” According to Smith, Halley’s Comet would pass near the earth in 1986 and would wreck atmospheric havoc for those left behind as debris from its million-mile tail pummeled the earth. Halley’s Comet did appear in 1986 with no damage done to our planet. (A similar prelude to the end had been predicted based on the so-called Jupiter Effect.[1]) ...

(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; eschatology; preterism; prophecy; tribulation
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To: fishtank

I agree.

LOL . . . particularly a lot of the “unique” parts. LOL.


301 posted on 03/05/2009 9:14:27 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Cvengr; raynearhood; Iscool; Lee N. Field; Star Traveler
Combing two responses:

Rev 7:1-14 leaves little doubt as to the identity of the 144,000. They are from Israel, a remnant. They aren’t Gentiles. They come out of the Great Tribulation.

You are correct. There are multiple verses in the Bible pointing directly to such doctrine.

The claim that I was disputing was that these are 144,000 Jewish evangelists running around the world converting folks to Christ, or some such similar belief. That is what you claimed.

If there were multiple verses that teach such a doctrine, I’m sure you would have pointed to them directly.

But the fact is that there is none. The idea of 144,000 Jewish evangelists during the futurist tribulation period is one of the myths of futurism. It just gets repeated from meeting to TV program without substantiation. It is a futurist axiom.

As for the meaning of the symbol of the one hundred and forty four thousand in Rev. 7 and 14, that also is not a clear as the futurists would have us believe. Most futurists do not deal with the symbolism behind the number (12x12x1000), just as they do not deal with the symbolism behind most of the numbers in Revelation. See the dimensions of the great city, the holy Jerusalem in Rev. 21:16; a perfect cube measuring 12x1000 stadia on a side. Or the measurement of the wall surrounding the city, 12x12 cubits.

Futurists assert there is “little doubt” as to the identity of the one hundred and forty four thousand because they all agree among themselves. They all assert the same set of axioms and come to the same conclusions. They rarely interact with the larger body of evangelical/conservative Christian scholarship that simply does not agree with their conclusions.

302 posted on 03/05/2009 9:25:47 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix
Answering REMOTELY

  and CANDIDLY

    and HISTORICALLY

      and CONGRUENTLY

    and BIBLICALLY

  and ACCURATELY

would SIMPLY

  increase

FRUSTRATION.


303 posted on 03/05/2009 9:31:10 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

I can certainly imagine

that

trying to pretend to be an honest Christian while stretching the RUBBER REPLACEMENTARIAN BIBLE

so persistently sky-West and crooked

would be a classic case of contortionist frustration-in-futility attacks to the max.


304 posted on 03/05/2009 9:35:04 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Lee N. Field
"Where is America in bible prophecy???"

Turn left at Greenland.

305 posted on 03/05/2009 9:56:59 AM PST by ReignOfError
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To: Cvengr; raynearhood
The Church is not Israel.

Israel is not Israel (Rom. 9:6,7)

End of story.

306 posted on 03/05/2009 10:05:52 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54
Futurists assert there is “little doubt” as to the identity of the one hundred and forty four thousand because they all agree among themselves.

No, there is not 'little' doubt...There is NO doubt...

The passage says 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel...Therefore, it is 'tribes of the children of Israel'...

You don't have to interpret it; all you have to do is read...

You don't have to understand it; all you have to do is believe...

307 posted on 03/05/2009 10:11:47 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: JesusBmyGod; raynearhood; Lee N. Field
I wonder how many have actually thought through the ramifications of "replacement theology."

Since no one here actually teaches “replacement theology” there are no ramifications to consider, except in a purely academic sense.

See Not Replacement...Expansion! by Fred Klett.

It’s pretty clear that so-called “replacement theology” is a boogeyman created in the fertile mind of futurist who see their grip on the Church slowly slipping away and more and more of their “prophecies” about the end times fail to materialize. And so they invented “replacement theology” as a whipping boy to divert attention away from the own exegetical and theological failures.

Every time someone point out the failure of futurist to tell us much of anything that is useful, the cry goes out “replacement theology” to divert us way from the fact that the futurist emperor has no clothes.


308 posted on 03/05/2009 10:16:00 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix
Here is an excerpt from The Messianic Church Arising! by Dr. Robert D. Heidler that speaks about the purpose (one of many, I believe) of the seed of Abraham. ----

Why have we accepted ideas that are contrary to the Bible? It’s because God’s revelation has been filtered through a pagan mindset. I’m convinced that our walk with God is hindered in ways we cannot even imagine because our pagan Gentile mindset blinds us to much of God’s revelation.

If the pagan mind has such a difficult time understanding the truth of God, how can the world come to know Him? God’s solution to this problem was to raise up a priestly nation, specially trained to understand and communicate the truth of God. His plan was to choose a people and prepare them, like an athlete in training, putting them through difficult situations and placing on them stringent requirements to instill in them the ways of God. They would be equipped to serve as lights to the nations, to communicate the things of God to the rest of mankind.

That’s why God created the Jewish people. He took the offspring of Abraham and for 2000 years He shaped their culture and understanding to bring them into line with His truth. He gave them a revelation of His nature… that there is only one God, that He is a jealous God, that He will not share His glory with pagan idols. He revealed that He is a holy God, a loving God, and a righteous God.

He gave them a prophetic view of history. They learned where history started, where it’s headed, and what Messiah would come to do.

Through His Torah, He shaped the daily lives of the people. He taught them about holiness: holy days, holy people, and holy places. He taught them about righteousness and repentance. He divided their world into clean and unclean to teach them the defilement of sin and what it means to be set apart to God. He taught them about sacrifice and about blood covenant. Many ancient peoples knew something about blood covenant, but they didn’t know it like the Jews did!

God instilled in them a biblical cycle of life. The Sabbaths and the feasts formed a rich tapestry against which life was played out, teaching and reminding them each year of the central principles of life with God.

God gave them practical wisdom for success. He taught them how to prosper, to demonstrate to the world the blessing of being God’s people.

Through repeated chastening and correction, He hammered into their minds what is required of those who would walk with God.

Then after two thousand years of preparation, Messiah came. Because of the foundation God had built into the Jewish people, they knew who He was and what He would accomplish.

When John the Baptist introduced Jesus, he did not have to spend three hours describing who Jesus was and what He came to do. He just said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” They knew what he meant! They knew what a sacrificial lamb was, and what Messiah would do. (Interestingly, most of the Jews who rejected Jesus were those who had turned from their own Jewish roots and became enamored with pagan Greek philosophy!)

Throughout their history God revealed that He had chosen the Jews to be a nation of priests, a people specially prepared to communicate His truth to the Gentile nations. When God first brought the Israelites out of Egypt, He told them, “You will be for me a kingdom of priests” (Ex. 19:6). As the Levitical priests ministered the things of God to Israel, so the nation of Israel would minister the truth of God to the Gentiles.

God promised the Jews that, “Nations (Gentiles) will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn” (Isa. 60:3), and “You will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God” (Isa. 61:6).

In Zechariah, God spoke of a future time when “ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you’” (Zech 8:23).

God called the Jewish people to be a light to the Gentile nations. God placed them in the truths we need to know if we are to walk with God. That’s the rich sap from the olive root!

Many have assumed when Paul announced, “I’m going to the Gentiles!” that it was a rejection of his Judaism. Far from it! It was the fulfillment of his Judaism! He was saying, “I’m pressing on to fulfill the call of our people, to be a light to the Gentiles.”

Wherever he went, he ministered first to the Jews. Those were the ones prepared by God to receive his message. The first Gentiles saved were usually those already attending Synagogue, who had already gained some understanding of God. Wherever possible, Paul started each church with a core of Messianic Jews. They were to be the leadership of the early church. Their duty as members of God’s priestly nation was to communicate the ways of God to the Gentile converts. (end excerpt)

Jesus Himself said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20)

309 posted on 03/05/2009 10:17:54 AM PST by JesusBmyGod (Baruch HaBa B'Shem Adonai)
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To: Iscool; raynearhood; Lee N. Field
The passage says 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel...Therefore, it is 'tribes of the children of Israel'...

What about the tribe of Dan? And why is Manasseh mentioned twice and Ephraim not mentioned at all?

Simplistic assertions such as yours are one reason why futurists don’t get the book of Revelation. Ignoring the symbols drawn largely from the old covenant prophets is the other. Having a Israel-centric rather than Christocentric view of the Bible and the world also makes things difficult for you.

310 posted on 03/05/2009 10:22:02 AM PST by topcat54
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To: JesusBmyGod; raynearhood; Lee N. Field
Here is an excerpt from The Messianic Church Arising! by Dr. Robert D. Heidler that speaks about the purpose (one of many, I believe) of the seed of Abraham. ----
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ … 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)
Anyone who ignores the NT when formulating their conclusions about the true “Seed” of Abraham is bound to get it wrong. It’s not about genetics, my friend.
311 posted on 03/05/2009 10:26:00 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Cvengr
We both agree that during the Church Age all who have faith in Christ have salvation, Jew and Gentile alike.

If we agree on anything it's that all who have been reconciled to God through Christ have salvation... as for the "Church Age," I have no convenient set of charts that breaks the Scripture down into a whole bunch of different dispensations. Which "Church Age"? The one that ended in 1988, 2000, or the one that's going to end in 2033?



312 posted on 03/05/2009 10:31:45 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: Quix
That’s BECAUSE

it

  is clear

       you have

           a FERTILE

           VEGETARIAN

       COMPLEMENTARIAN

   SUPERLAPSARIAN

ELEPHANTARIAN

imagination.

313 posted on 03/05/2009 10:32:53 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Cvengr
Except there were explicit contracts made by God regarding Israel explicitly.

Contracts that were fulfilled and perfected in the New one.

not merely spiritualizing the promises made.

Merely spiritualizing? The physical life, death, and resurrection of our Savior and the real salvation of all those who are justified through His real redemptive work IS NOT mere spiritualization.
314 posted on 03/05/2009 10:39:51 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: ReignOfError
"Where is America in bible prophecy???"

Turn left at Greenland.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . .

!THAT!

ASSUMES

that
REPLACEMENTARIANS

KNOW

the
DIFFERENCE

between

UP vs DOWN

North vs South

&

left vs right
!!!

GIVEN

How horribly
they
habitually
MANGLE SCRIPTURE
GOD'S OWN WORDS
OUT OF ALL
RECOGNIZALE SHAPE
...
INTO THE MOST
IRRATIONAL
CONVOLUTED
CONTORTED
HERETICAL
'SHMELESSLY SHAMEFUL'
PILES OF STINKING PHLEGM

ever afflicting
the
FR Religion Forum

I personally
wouldn't want to bet
that they'd know
the least bit of truth
about "left from Greenland"
ASSUMING
they could
FIND
GREENLAND!

At least
I think we can assume that when the dust settles from
Armageddon
they may be able to buy a few clues
from any surviving 7/11's.

LOL
/S

315 posted on 03/05/2009 10:44:23 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: airborne; American in Israel; auggy; backhoe; bearsgirl90; betsyross60; BigBadWolf; Blogger; ...
PING TO JUST CREATED SMALLEST, MOST OFTEN PINGED, PERSONAL BUDDY END TIMES PING LIST. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU WANT ON OR OFF THIS MOST FREQUENTLY PINGED END TIMES BUDDY LIST.

.

The Church is not Israel.

Israel is not Israel (Rom. 9:6,7)

End of story.

About the time I think I've seen the maximum absurdity from the REPLACEMENTARIAN perspective, they offer up something hideously worse!

GOD DECLARES IN GOD'S OWN WORD . . . THAT AS LONG AS THERE ARE STARS . . . THERE WILL BE ISRAEL AS ISRAEL.

I'm sure God's very impressed with REPLACEMENTARIANS calling God a liar.

Thankfully, GOD ALONE WRITES THE END OF THE STORY AND SOME OF THAT, HE HAS ALREADY WRITTEN IN HIS WORD.

316 posted on 03/05/2009 10:59:36 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

This is the attitude I’ve found for most “pre trib rapture” fans. When shown countless examples of how pre-trib rapture promoters have falsely predicted the 2nd coming of Christ in the past, they will shrug their shoulders and say at least one, if not more than one of the following:

1. Doesn’t matter. I’m not beholden to a “man”, I’m beholden to the Bible and Christ.

2. No where does the Bible say that it’s forbidden to predict a time FRAME of when Christ will return. We’re just not allowed to predict an exact hour and day. Sure this guy was wrong about HIS time frame, but who’s to say Pastor X (insert name of favorite “prophet” here) is wrong?

3. Scripture tells us of certain signs that will precede His Return! Don’t you believe in following all of Scripture, and “being ready” for His return? (here of course the fan is falsely equating “being ready for His Return” with assigning current events to Biblical prophecies, esp from Rev and Dan, even though throughout much of Church history, exegetically speaking this was a no-no, not only because for most of Church history, the Church was quite a-millenial in her eschatological concerns, but also because to “be ready” for His Return simply meant keeping in a state of grace (friendship with God), NOT keeping up on current events)

Of course, what all 3 of these reactions give the person saying them is a virtual “carte-blanche” to continue to believe in any prophet that may come down the road, asking one simply to “buy the book to find out more”. There’s no “falsification” of the entire concept of “pre-tribulation rapture” possible; it’s impossible to disprove the very notion, given the excuses above. This alone should give one pause, for this is a dangerous blank check, not only for one’s finances but for one’s spiritual health. It’s a vicious cycle that feeds on itself.

Typically, with all due respect to such believers, those who cling to a “pre-trib rapture” eschatology have a life that is full of hardship, be it mental, physical or spiritual. This then becomes their “last hope”, and also becomes something to look forward to for their entire life. A glorious “snatching away” where all their pain will be gone in an instant.

However, if I may be so bold, this is not traditional Christianity. In Christianity, we *are* expected to suffer, as we not only walk toward God, but work toward a better world here. Our faith isn’t to be some kind of magic pill that, if not “today”, “someday” will make all our pain go away. Our faith is to sustain us, until our death in Christ, OR until He returns again, for THE final judgement, not multiple judgements.

For the last 2,000 years, there have been plenty who have suffered greatly in the Body of Christ. I submit it would be “favoritism” on God’s part to suddenly snatch away one generation from its suffering, while others “ran the race to the end” in times past. As we know however, “God is not a respecter of persons”.

Just something to think about. If points 1-3 don’t give the pre-tribber reading this cause for pause.


317 posted on 03/05/2009 11:00:06 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Ezekiel; Quix
Looks like a fun site! Enjoy!

Later…

M

Jews and Joes
Because both houses matter!
http://jewsandjoes.com/history-and-timeline-of-israel-and-judah.html

318 posted on 03/05/2009 11:03:51 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr (What would John Lennon do?)
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To: Iscool
No, there is not 'little' doubt...There is NO doubt...

The passage says 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel...Therefore, it is 'tribes of the children of Israel'...

You don't have to interpret it; all you have to do is read...

You don't have to understand it; all you have to do is believe...

OF A CLEAR AND PRESENT PERCEPTIVENESS THOU HAS TICKLED GOSPEL TRUTH OUT OF THINE KEYBOARD!

HOWEVER

There is this bit of a matter of

ASSUMING

that
REPLACEMENTARIANS

CAN

READ!

WHICH, given their wholesale mangling of Scripture and shredding it all over the trash dump . . . I fail to find significant evidence that they can read, at all!

However, you may have hit upon a key clue to their terminal malady. They REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE BIBLE. THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAID. THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE GOD. So, yet again, we are forced to conclude, their hideousness about Israel is WILLFUL BLINDNESS.

319 posted on 03/05/2009 11:09:45 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: JesusBmyGod

GREAT POINTS.

EXCELLENT TEXT.

THANKS.


320 posted on 03/05/2009 11:11:50 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. . .

so, the game REPLACEMENTARIANS wish to play is . . .

JUST BECAUSE REPLACEMENTARIANS CAN'T READ SIMPLE TEXT AND UNDERSTAND CLEAR MEANINGS,

DISPIES ARE REQUIRED TO READ THE MIND OF GOD ON ALL QUESTIONS?

ROTFLOL.

THAT'S TOOOOOOO RICH.

GTTM!


321 posted on 03/05/2009 11:15:49 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Cvengr; Iscool; JesusBmyGod; Blogger
12 THOUSAND
BLOOD DESCENDED
INDIVIDUALS
FROM
EACH
OF THE 12
PATRIARCHS

IS

NOT

ABOUT

GENETICS

AT ALL?
0.0000000000%
??????

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and next, REPLACEMENTARIANS WILL TRY AND CONVINCE US

that

WORDS
BREATHED OF GOD

mean something

TO THEM!

ROTFLOL!

When they spend soooooooooo many lines of text proving that God's words mean nothing to them . . . nothing to their rationalizations nor to their vain imaginings.

322 posted on 03/05/2009 11:23:19 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Jeremiah Jr

THANKS THANKS.


323 posted on 03/05/2009 11:25:40 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
PERSONAL BUDDY END TIMES PING LIST

And here they are:


324 posted on 03/05/2009 11:34:30 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

LOVE IT.

Hard to beat color and RESURRECTION LIFE.


325 posted on 03/05/2009 11:37:18 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54
What about the tribe of Dan? And why is Manasseh mentioned twice and Ephraim not mentioned at all?

The Mormons claim to come from Ephraim, which is kinda odd...

Ephraims name is blotted out under heaven in the book of Hosea...

Hos 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Ephraim was replaced by Joseph...

Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

Jacob had an illegitimate son in Dan...And of course, Dan was the first born...But the first born from God was Joseph...

Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

So Jacob says Dan shall judge as one of the tribes of Israel, NOT actually being a tribe of Israel...

Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Dan was not a good guy...

Gen 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

Joseph replaces Ephraim and Levi replaces Dan who was wholly given over to Baal worship...

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

I see Manasses only once...

But why worry about it...Just believe it...You going to conted with the Holy Spirit on the issue???

326 posted on 03/05/2009 11:40:16 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping.


327 posted on 03/05/2009 11:49:24 AM PST by navygal (America needs to get on the Dave Ramsey plan.)
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To: FourtySeven
However, if I may be so bold, this is not traditional Christianity. In Christianity, we *are* expected to suffer, as we not only walk toward God, but work toward a better world here.Get out of your catechism and into the word of God if you want to know the real truth...

For the last 2,000 years, there have been plenty who have suffered greatly in the Body of Christ. I submit it would be “favoritism” on God’s part to suddenly snatch away one generation from its suffering, while others “ran the race to the end” in times past.

Like I said, get into the Scriptures...It is NOT a generation...It's an age...The church age...It covers a couple thousand years...

328 posted on 03/05/2009 11:49:44 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Quix
So, yet again, we are forced to conclude, their hideousness about Israel is WILLFUL BLINDNESS.

True...Everything that has to do with future prophecy is 'symbolic'...If I was one of them reformers from Christianity, seems I'd want to know what that stuff was symbolic of...

329 posted on 03/05/2009 11:53:54 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: navygal

And you for your kind reply.


330 posted on 03/05/2009 12:08:34 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool

Symbols are important.

Pontificating with self-righteous pseudo-confidence about symbols is . . . to be avoided . . . imho.

Things will be understood better by and by as the old Hymn asserts.

However,

ISRAEL

AND GOD’S HEART FOR ISRAEL AND PLANS FOR ISRAEL ARE AMONGST THE CLEAREST AND MOST DEPENDABLE PARTS OF SCRIPTURE.


331 posted on 03/05/2009 12:10:00 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool; raynearhood; Lee N. Field
Ephraims name is blotted out under heaven in the book of Hosea...

That’s not exactly what it says in context:

15 "Though you, Israel, play the harlot, Let not Judah offend. Do not come up to Gilgal, Nor go up to Beth Aven, Nor swear an oath, saying, 'As the Lord lives'-- 16 "For Israel is stubborn Like a stubborn calf; Now the Lord will let them forage Like a lamb in open country. 17 "Ephraim is joined to idols, Let him alone. 18 Their drink is rebellion, They commit harlotry continually. Her rulers dearly love dishonor. 19 The wind has wrapped her up in its wings, And they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices. (Hos. 4)
It’s clear from the context of Hosea 4 that “Ephraim” is being used as a synonym for Israel, i.e., Israel has played the harlot and Ephraim is joined to idols. It’s simple Hebraic construct for emphasis.

Amo 8:14

Again, you manage to ignore the context by cherry picking prooftexts.

11 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord God, "That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the Lord. 12 They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord, But shall not find it. 13 "In that day the fair virgins And strong young men Shall faint from thirst. 14 Those who swear by the sin of Samaria, Who say, 'As your god lives, O Dan!' And, 'As the way of Beersheba lives!' They shall fall and never rise again." (Amos 8)
The context is the entire sin of Israel (cf. v. 2, “The end has come upon My people Israel”). Dan is being used as shorthand for Samaria which is a reference to the northern tribes.

Dan was not a good guy...

So what? Most of them we not “good guys”. You’re cherry picking verses to make an unsupportable claim.

Interestingly, we see Dan identified with Ezekiel’s idealistic temple in Ezek. 48.

Now these are the names of the tribes: From the northern border along the road to Hethlon at the entrance of Hamath, to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus northward, in the direction of Hamath, there shall be one section for Dan from its east to its west side;
Your assertions are obviously not taking everything we read in the Bible into account.

Joseph replaces Ephraim and Levi replaces Dan who was wholly given over to Baal worship...

But that is but a theory, an excuse, if you will. It does not support your earlier contention that “ all the tribes” of Israel are represented in Rev. 7.

I see Manasses only once...

Once on his own and once as the half tribe of Joseph. Actually, he is counted one and half times, sorry for the confusion.

So we are left with the fact that you have not done your homework as to the symbolism behind the one hundred and forty four thousand in the book of Revelation. You simplistic solutions do not account for all we know from the rest of the Bible.

332 posted on 03/05/2009 12:23:46 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix; Iscool
AND GOD’S HEART FOR ISRAEL AND PLANS FOR ISRAEL ARE AMONGST THE CLEAREST AND MOST DEPENDABLE PARTS OF SCRIPTURE.

Amen! Israel is the apple of His eye. Zechariah 2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.

And we are commanded to pray for the peace of Israel as well. Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you.

Isaiah 2:2-5 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk In the light of the LORD.

Now, I'm pretty certain THAT hasn't happened yet. :)

333 posted on 03/05/2009 12:25:32 PM PST by JesusBmyGod (Baruch HaBa B'Shem Adonai)
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To: topcat54

More humor, I see! LOL.

Or shall we consider it pathos!

RATIONALIZATIONS REPLACEMENTARIANS PLAY!


334 posted on 03/05/2009 12:26:52 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool
No, there is not 'little' doubt...There is NO doubt...

No, you have no doubt. Not the same thing.

335 posted on 03/05/2009 12:28:05 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: JesusBmyGod

GOOD FOR YOU!

I’M CERTAIN

It hasn’t happened yet!

What do the REPLACEMENTARIANS DO with such crystal clear Scriptures about ISRAEL’s future role in such things???

LOOK THE OTHER WAY?
DENY?
SHUFFLE AND MUTTER?
PRETEND THEY’RE HAVING A NIGHTMARE?

Amazing.


336 posted on 03/05/2009 12:28:24 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool; topcat54
Joseph replaces Ephraim...

Impossible. Ephraim is a half tribe of the tribe of Joseph. You are falsely asserting that the tribe of Joseph is replacing what is already a part of it. Without Ephraim, the tribe of Joseph is only partially represented by Manassah.

I see Manasses only once...As pointed out through quoting Revelation:
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Manasses is a half tribe of Joseph. Joseph minus the half tribe Ephraim leaves only the half tribe Manasses. Manasses is counted twice.
337 posted on 03/05/2009 12:36:35 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: topcat54

I get up to get a drink and you get to it first. Good post.


338 posted on 03/05/2009 12:39:50 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: Quix

12,000 from 12 tribes is what I’ve learned. M


339 posted on 03/05/2009 1:15:59 PM PST by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary

YUP.

THX.

LUB


340 posted on 03/05/2009 1:45:35 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood
Well thanks.

I’M CERTAIN

  There are some

       IN THIS FORUM

           who won’t like it

           because

       it does not give

   A PROMINENT PLACE

to modern secular Israel

   because these NAYSAYERS are FUNDAMENTALIST

ISRAELATARIANS.

341 posted on 03/05/2009 1:48:32 PM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:

The larger set of genetically Jewish people are not all the same set of people known as Israel spiritually. This doesn’t make statements regarding those who are genetically Gentile.

They might be better pictured as the grafted branch.


342 posted on 03/05/2009 8:18:30 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: raynearhood
Contracts that were fulfilled and perfected in the New one.So when has Israel occupied the Promised Land never to be removed again from it?
343 posted on 03/05/2009 8:27:32 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
So when has Israel occupied the Promised Land never to be removed again from it?

For the past 2000 years.
Hebrews 11:
8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
....
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
If the forefathers of the faith accepted by faith that the promise of a promised land was something greater than the acreage between Dan and Beersheba, then why shouldn't we? If the faith of the forefathers of the faith look forward to the perfection of the promises in Christ, then why don't we look back at the covenants as having been perfected in Christ?

But the author of Hebrews is probably just wrongly spiritualizing the covenants, right?
344 posted on 03/05/2009 10:13:13 PM PST by raynearhood (<< BEWARE!!! A consistent NAYSAYER posted this reply)
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To: Cvengr; Iscool; raynearhood; Lee N. Field
The larger set of genetically Jewish people are not all the same set of people known as Israel spiritually. This doesn’t make statements regarding those who are genetically Gentile.

But genetic believing Jews and genetic believing Gentiles make up the Church, no? Together they comprise the true olive tree (Rom. 11). Paul's thesis in Rom. 9-11 is that the remnant of Israel is the true Israel. And elsewhere he makes it plain that Gentile believers are made part of that same believing commonwealth (Eph. 2). They are entitled to all the right and privileges as the natural branches. Paul treats them equally in every respect (Gal. 3:28,29). Continuing to refer to them as the grafted branch, as if that is inherently spiritually inferior, is not helpful. Remember, we are 2000 years past the point where Paul was with the fledgling Church. The new man has continued to grow to maturity. We are no longer simplay a new man, but a mature man. We have put away childish things.

Sadly, there are those today who wish to take that mature man back to the days when believers were finding offense with one another over food and feast days. To the days when even apostles were withdrawing from the gentile brethren when the other party arrived. Back to the days of "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas,"

Now, you can make clams that “The Church is not Israel”, and at some level that may be true, but at another level, the important spiritual level, is is not true. The Church is Israel, the holy nation and royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9,10).

345 posted on 03/06/2009 5:48:42 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix
Quix, I read it all and believe it to be a very accurate summary of the heresy of replacement theology developed by the heretics of “christian religion”(the true whore of Babylon).
346 posted on 03/06/2009 6:35:06 AM PST by marbren
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To: marbren

Thanks for your kind words.

I don’t know who Babylon is.

Certainly the pseudo-luke-warm-pukey-puke-worthy

“Christian” apostate church is one likely candidate.

Blessed you and your family.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.


347 posted on 03/06/2009 7:08:37 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: topcat54

I should make a T-shirt and wear it with pride.


348 posted on 03/06/2009 7:11:14 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood

Linear Greek thinking will not always open up Biblical truth.


349 posted on 03/06/2009 7:11:58 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood; topcat54
If the forefathers of the faith accepted by faith that the promise of a promised land was something greater than the acreage between Dan and Beersheba, then why shouldn't we? If the faith of the forefathers of the faith look forward to the perfection of the promises in Christ, then why don't we look back at the covenants as having been perfected in Christ?

But the author of Hebrews is probably just wrongly spiritualizing the covenants, right?

Worth looking at is Two Level Fulfillment, an excerpt of Meredith Kline's Kingdom Prologue: Genesis Foundations for a Covenantal Worldview dealing specifically with dispensationalism.
By virtue then of both the filling of the land of Canaan and its characterization as a sabbath-land, this first level, Canaanite fulfillment of the land promise is seen to be an anticipatory portrayal of the consummated kingdom-land, the Metapolis kingdom-city of the new heavens and earth which the Creator covenanted to man from the beginning. Canaan represented this in a figure; it was only a limited land, not the cosmic goal of the creation kingdom. Also, as Hebrews 4 teaches, Canaan was not the true Sabbath experience. Even believers under the new covenant still await that. The Canaanite, first level fulfillment of the land promise served the pedagogical purpose of pointing beyond itself to the second level fulfillment, intimated by the “everlasting” nature of the promised possession.

Biblical teaching concerning a cataclysmic overhauling to be undergone by the earth and the emergence of a new heaven and earth at the Consummation presents a problem to any interpretation of the promise of an everlasting land inheritance understood in its specifically Palestinian delineation. The particular configuration of Canaanite territory specified to Abraham will not exist forever. Even apart from the assumption of radical cosmic restructuring at the final judgment, one would have to recognize that the current continental configurations of the earth reflected in the Abrahamic land promise would be altered beyond recognition in future ages by the natural geologic dynamics of the planet.

Moreover, and more decisively, in the New Testament there are clear indications of a positive kind of the shift to the second level of meaning of the land promise. Indeed, with surprising abruptness the New Testament disregards the first level meaning and simply takes for granted that the second level, cosmic fulfillment is the true intention of the promise. In keeping with Old Testament prophecies that Messiah, the royal seed of Abraham, would receive and reign over a universal kingdom (e.g., Pss 2:8; 72:8; Zech 9:10), Paul identifies Abraham’s promised inheritance as the world (kosmos, Rom 4:13). What is more, the New Testament attributes to Abraham himself as a subjective expectation an eschatological hope based on a second level understanding of the land promise. According to Hebrews 11:10,16 the object of Abraham’s faith-longing was not any earthly turf of this evil world-age but a better, heavenly country, the city of the new age, the creation of God.

....

I could quote it at great length, but I doubt it would do much good for the contingent here with it's fingers in it's ears humming real loud "Israel is Israel".

350 posted on 03/06/2009 7:50:43 AM PST by Lee N. Field (2)How many things are necessary to know..how I may be delivered from all my sins and miseries)
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