Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based
"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54
Calvary Chapel of Chino California held “ The Southern California Prophecy Conference” last week (Feb. 20–22, 2009). I wonder if those who came to hear speakers like Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, Paul McGuire, David Hocking, David Reagan, and Ed Hindson were aware that Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel network of churches, made some very definite predictions about when the “rapture” was going to take place.
While cleaning up my office, I came across a cassette tape of a sermon Chuck Smith preached on December 31, 1979. He told his very accepting audience on that day that the rapture would take place in 1981. The former Soviet Republic going into Afghanistan in August of 1978 was the prelude to what Smith considered to be a full-force invasion of the Middle East. It would not be long before “Russia” would invade Israel, Smith told his audience. All of this was said to have been “predicted” by Ezekiel 2600 years ago.
Smith went on to claim in his end-of-the-year message of 30 years ago that because of ozone depletion Revelation 16:8 would be fulfilled during the soon-coming Great Tribulation: “And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.” According to Smith, Halley’s Comet would pass near the earth in 1986 and would wreck atmospheric havoc for those left behind as debris from its million-mile tail pummeled the earth. Halley’s Comet did appear in 1986 with no damage done to our planet. (A similar prelude to the end had been predicted based on the so-called Jupiter Effect.[1]) ...
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
"Smith wrote in 1980 that from his “understanding of biblical prophecies, he was “convinced that the Lord [would come] for His Church before the end of 1981.” He did add that he “could be wrong” but went on to say in the same sentence that “it’s a deep conviction in my heart, and all my plans are predicated upon that belief.”[5] Notice the last statement. He may have voiced some doubts, but actions speak louder than words. " ...
"In addition to some very specific prophetic predictions, Smith claimed that “the rapture is at hand.”[9] His 1976 book on the antichrist states that he will be revealed “soon.”" ...
"As a futurist, Smith “believes that Revelation says what it means and means what it says, and he or she does not need to twist its words to make them fit any particular doctrine. The futurist believes this book is to be taken at face value. . . .”[14]" ...
"Those who came to hear these men speak on the topic of Bible prophecy did not hear a word about the failed prophecies of Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith and so many other prophecy “experts” before them. The attendees most assuredly walked away under the delusion that they are living in the final generation that will experience the rapture. They most likely told that the world is in a death spiral and there is nothing to be done except to be taken to heaven in a “rapture.” Of course, the participants were assured that all of the end-time rhetoric they heard was based solidly on the “literal interpretation of the Bible.” If I remember correctly, that’s what prophecy speculators have been saying for generations! None of this matters, since the people who attend these conferences have no sense of prophetic history, and this is what the prophecy writers depend on so they can sell their prophecy books and stay in business."
"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
“Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists 39 have appeared. We know from this that it is the last hour.” 1 John 2:18 Like it or not, we are living in the “last days.” False prophets notwithstanding.
I am the only true prophet; I’ve recently prophesized that there will appear more prophets who will predict the end of times, the end of the world and the invasion of the planet by scaly space aliens.
If you would like to know more about my awesome predictions; send $19.95 via Paypal to www.tunaforthecrackpotsoul.nod
Know one knows the day or hour The Lord will return but Jesus told us the signs to watch for and warned us to be ready. Live like he’s coming today plan like he’s coming 100 years from now. Though I doubt it’ll be a 100 years, there’s too many countries getting the bomb - either them or terrorists will sooner or later set one off which will lead to WW3.
Did you think about that at all? John was speaking to his contemporaries in the first century, not directly to us. THEY were living in the last days; these words are no reason to believe we are. If so, the "last days" are awfully long. In reality, I think the end came in 70 AD.
Why would WW3 have anything to do with Biblical prophecy? WW1 and WW2 didn't.
Here’s what one reviewer wrote about the book: “Years ago, I used to read Dr. Hitchcock's books with great eagerness. As his new books continued to roll off the presses, I began to see a repeated theme emerging. Hitchcock no longer writes to teach the Body of Christ but rather to fleece them and make a buck off of the booming prophecy industry. There are many excellent books out there on the subject, but they are often not published by the mainstream book publishers. After Hitchcock's last book which as a transparent effort to jump on the Iranian President's prominence in the news, I was disappointed to say the least. But I still chose to give him the benefit of the doubt and I purchased this book as well. My worst fears were realized. With the United States in a serious financial and moral crisis, Hitchcock has proven to me that he is simply capitalizing on the latest events in the news and the anxieties of the sheep for the purpose of making a quick buck. Mr. Hitchcock and the Christian publishing world should be greatly ashamed. It is not about growing one's own little empire, but about proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Christ. This will be the last book written by Mr. Hitchcock that I will ever purchase or read.”
Yes, but which "end"? Temporally speaking, it was the end of the old covenant system and the beginning for the new (Heb. 8:13). Jesus appeared at the “end of the ages (aeon)” (Heb. 9:26).
Christ will return one day to cast Satan and his followers in the lake of Fire, put an end to death and Hades, make our bodies like His, and wipe away every tear.
Of course I’ve thought about it! As far as your contention that “I think the end came in 70 AD” most scholars date the Johannine epsitles after 70 AD. And thankfully, the “last days” are awfully long owing to God’s grace and patience that all should receive the gift of eternal life.
Jesus said there would be birth pains before he returns and it would be difficult to find two bigger ones. WW2 led to the rebirth of Israel which is one of the biggest signs that points to the Lord's return.
Yes it's true that every generation believes it's the last, but Israel wasn't around during the previous ones, so that's how we know his return is near.
What makes you think modern Israel is at all related to biblical Israel?
IOW, what makes you think Israel is “around” biblically speaking?
Awfully long, but less than 100 years left? What gives you the sort of historical or spiritual perspective to judge that? Why not another 100,000 years? To believe that today's world is somehow new and shockingly different, and suddenly ready to fulfill all the prophecies, is to lack any sort of historical perspective and to indulge in a rather egotistical bout of navel-gazing.
We're not so different, and our world is not so different, from the world of the past 1,938 years, in terms of relation to Biblical prophecy.
[Topcat:]What makes you think modern Israel is at all related to biblical Israel?
IOW, what makes you think Israel is “around” biblically speaking?
Exactly. Plus, if modern Israel is the key and the Dispensational view is correct, shouldn't Edgar Whisenant have been correct about the "rapture" being in 1988?
Calm down. I think you are reading something into my post that I did not intend. I have not put a date on the Lord’s return at all. I didn’t even say it was close. All I did was to quote the writer of 1 John who said “it is the last days”. I wonder what kind of historical and spiritual perspective he had. BTW- do the words “For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come in the same way as a thief in the night.” have any meaning for you?
True, but all I did was point out that he was writing to his contemporaries, not directly to us. It seems to me that the interpretation that does the least violence to the text is to take it at face value - they were indeed in the last days before the destruction of Jerusalem. By the way, I am aware that many scholars date those epistles and the Revelation rather late; I happen to disagree with them. There is ample and convincing evidence to place their writing in the 63-66 AD range.
I wonder what kind of historical and spiritual perspective he had
I think his perspective was the same as the tone of the whole New Testament: they were on the verge of something big, something catastrophic, something that would change the world forever. That something was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the permanent end of sacrifices in the Temple, and the permanent end of Temple-based Judaism. In other words, the end of the Old Covenant - the "old Heaven and old Earth" - to make way for the New Covenant - the "New Heaven and New Earth."
“For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come in the same way as a thief in the night.” have any meaning for you?
Yes, but I think it had more meaning for those who were there to witness it.
These are my opinions; I respect those of others - I used to be a futurist myself. Hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful or mean; I think robust discussion is a healthy thing.
What in the whole wide, wide world of sports do you mean by "Biblically Optimistic"? As opposed to "Biblically Pessimistic"?
Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ. This belief that good will gradually triumph over evil has led proponents of postmillennialism to label themselves "optimillennialists" in contrast to "pessimillennial" premillennialists and amillennialists.
Yep.
Ummmm...then why should we listen?
Nowhere in particular.
North Wrote:
This book will become the new reference work on the Book of Revelation. Incredibly, Chilton’s style is so lively that few readers will even notice that the author has tossed a scholarly bombshell. The conservative Christian academic world will be speechless; Chilton has offered a remarkable exegetical challenge to those who hold to the traditional rival eschatologies, which I label pessimillennialism. …While I might not be a severe as North in criticizing “other eschatologies”, he gets to the heart of matter, esp. as it related to extreme pessimism of futurist dispensaitonalism.The Days of Vengeance is especially concerned with the Revelation’s covenant structure and the historical focus of its judgment passages. If, as Chilton argues so brilliantly, these passages of imminent doom and gloom relate to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A. D., then there is no legitimate way to build a case for a Great Tribulation ahead of us. It is long behind us. Thus, the Book of Revelation cannot legitimately be used to buttress the case for eschatological pessimism. A lot of readers will reject his thesis at this point. The ones who are serious about the Bible will finish reading it before they reject his thesis.
The vast majority of Christians have believed that things will get progressively worse in almost every area of life until Jesus returns with His angels. Premillennialist believe that He will establish an earthly visible kingdom, with Christ in charge and bodily present. Amillennialists do not believe in any earthly visible kingdom prior to the final judgment. They believe that only the church and Christian schools and families will visibly represent the kingdom on earth, and the world will fall increasingly under the domination of Satan. Both eschatologies teach the earthly defeat of Christ’s church prior to His physical return in power.
The economy and Islam have provided a real boon for the Rapture Ready® crowd, who are still trying to recover from the fall of the Soviet Union.
Doesn’t make one whit of a difference that some predict the wrong date for the Rapture...
One thing we know for certain and that is that the prophetic end times have not taken place YET...That means only one thing, Even So Come Lord Jesus...
Do you mean "the last day" or "the day of the lord" or "blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" or "the day of judgment at His appearing"?
Then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven has come and gone...YOU missed it...
But we are to know the season. Are not Christ's own words giving the signs of His return basic and simple. (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) First sign is deception. Does that not require the Bible student to learn what the deception is? Christ says those that endure to the end the same shall be saved.
Christ also said that except those *days* be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those *days* should be shortened.
So we have the *days* shortened, (whose *days*? Daniel's *days*) and who saves flesh?
And who is the 'elect'? Would this be the one and same that Paul calls predestined from before the foundation of this age?
I attended the Prophecy Conference with over 4000 people at each service, it was a most blessed event. I did not hear all the speakers, and did not hear anyone predicting the Rapture although I heard about the rapture in scripture.
The mosy dynamic speaker IMO was Ed Hinson from Liberty University who spoke on the Coming of the Antichrist..
One thing that stood out was in regards to President Obama.
First let me say Ed did not say he thought Obama was the Antichrist..HOWEVER he said..*Do you see how a total unknown Like Barak Obama really came from no-where, a man that was able to capture the hearts and minds of people not only in the USA but all over the world, he said who could of thought *One Man* could accomplish such adulation in such a short time, just speaking about *Change* he said if Obama could accomplish this, what do you think the Antichrist can do? He also said if anyone currently could identify who the Antichrist is we can be sure, we have been *left Behind*.
He said what is holding the Antichrist back is GOD...GOD is still in control, GOD is still in the earth with his flock
(Holy Spirit)but when GOD removes his church (The Rapture) harpazo in greek the taking away, then the Antichrist will be able to rein on earth..So although the Antichrist has not appeared what we have is a Climate of Antichrist which is in Politics, Society and in the Church...
This was a confrence based on scripture, living in the Last Days and how to survive in these challenging times..
http://www.socalprophecy.com/
All of them...Starting with the Rapture of the church and the wedding of the Bride and Groom and on into the Millenial Kingdom where we will reign with Jesus when He becomes the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, reigning with a rod of iron, making all nations His footstool and then, the last Judgement...
It's all there...It hasn't taken place yet...
GREAT REPORT.
THANKS.
The naysayers from the
obsessively willfully blind, hyper-Calvinist camp are not likely to pay any attention to truth, facts or Scripture. Wasting time on them is . . . fruitless unless it’s just a recreational hobby! LOL.
Sounds like an exciting event...
CALVARY CHAPEL IS ONE OF THE MOST SOLIDLY BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATIONS ON THE PLANET.
THANKS for giving their efforts some more publicity.
Of course, some of us realize that not all “Christians” are able or willing to rise to the level of teaching and understanding so wonderuflly demonstrated by
CALVARY CHAPEL.
Uh huh. Ed Hindson is a good man, and Liberty University is a wonderful institution, but both are dead wrong on eschatology. Disclaimer: I have a degree in religion from Liberty.
It was great!
First time I was there, a huge place. Great Books, they served Breakfast, Lunch and dinner.. They has speakers outside so all could hear who could not get it....
The world of the LORD was spoken!
Praise be to GOD..
Starting on the Lenten season today.
Time will tell....
ED had been very sick, had heart surgery last year and he also had been battling the flu, as he flew in the day before from Virginia to speak.
Once again:
Interesting title - oh!
Click in
Gary deMar - ohhh
Click out
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Be Ready for His Coming
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
-----
Mark 13:32-37 (New American Standard Bible)
32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.
34 "It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.
35 "Therefore, be on the alert--for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning--
36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.
37 "What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"
-----
Luke 17:26-36 (New American Standard Bible)
26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
32 "Remember Lot's wife.
33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
been attending a CC locally since ‘94 when I surrendered to Him.
Read LOTS of Chuck Smith and litened to his c2000 series teaching and his 5000 series, have read MANY books he authored and have NEVER heard him predict a date. A season, yes. That Jesus could return at any instant, yes. But never as a date-setter.
Thanks for your view.
I’d have gone to that conference if I could have.
congrats.
Glad to read of it.
They usually do things right.
Have you been to their shops in Coasta Mesa? Great fun place—or used to be!
There's that term again..."hyper-Calvinist." topcat54 in particlar is most assuredly NOT a hyper-Calvinist...unless there are espresso shots involved ;)
Really, if you're gonna insult us, at least try to be accurate :D
How do I know who fits and doesn’t fit in the Calvinist ball park???
That’s a mysterious, nebulous, mystical, convoluted rabbit hole I don’t claim much understanding of! LOL.
insult you? Not really. That was a mild tweak.
I suppose I could get into heavy duty insulting but I love too many of you too much to be able to put much heart into that.
Now insulting your perspectives . . . that’s a different matter! LOL.
Thanks for your kind reply. I’ll take it under advisement.
BTW, as far as I can tell, double shots of expresso are routine in some such quarters . . . judging by the fierce instant responses, knee-jerk slap downs of standard plain Biblical truths.
"However" ... that's a key word for the Rapture Ready® crowd. They are always hedging their bets, insinuating they know more than they really know. Anything to sell books and videos, especially to Joe Average in the pew who lacks the discernment to know truth from falsehood.
So although the Antichrist has not appeared what we have is a Climate of Antichrist which is in Politics, Society and in the Church...
That’s an easy statement to make. John said the same thing in the first century (1 John 4:3). In reality Hinson knows nothing more than what John knew, probably much less. Besides, why would he spend a whole lecture trying to help you identify someone that you won’t be around to identify? Was it just to show you how cleaver he can be with the Bible? “Is the Antichrist Alive Today?” Who really cares?
Some other titles:
“What's About to Happen in the Middle East” Oh, brother. Yet another revision from the failed date-suggesting theology.
“Why God Has Given Us Bible Prophecy?” To sell books and DVDs, obviously.
“The Late Great United States” Coming down a notch from Hal Lindsey days.
“Will You Be Left Behind?” Another opportunity for Tim to remind you of all his works of fiction.
This was a confrence based on scripture, living in the Last Days and how to survive in these challenging times..
Did anyone teach on the Great Commission, Christ’s word to His Church to go into all the world, making disciples of the nations and baptizing? Did they talk about how Christ is seated on His throne, subduing the nations into the kingdom He is preparing for the Father? Did they talk about an eschatology of victory, or was it all defeatist doom-and-gloom, we’re outta here “real soon now” stuff?
BTW,
even if I do make inferences about folks hereon . . .
they are inferences about
THEIR PRESENTATION OF THEIR NEW PERSONA’S HEREON!
Who knows what that has to do with reality! LOL.
And in terms of insults . . . some folks in the Calvinist camp are way ahead of where I’d ever be able to catch up if I lived to be 500 years old! LOL.
Which “season” was that? The season marked by the coming of Comet Halley back in 1986?
Go back to 1978. Chuck said stuff like this:
“We’re the generation that saw the fig tree bud forth, as Israel became a nation again in 1948. As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years. . . . Forty years after 1948 would bring us to 1988.”
“The Lord said that towards the end of the Tribulation period the sun would scorch men who dwell upon the face of the earth (Rev. 16). The year 1986 would fit just about right! We’re getting close to the Tribulation and the return of Christ in glory. All the pieces of the puzzle are coming together.”
“If I understand Scripture correctly, Jesus taught us that the generation which sees the ‘budding of the fig tree,’ the birth of the nation of Israel, will be the generation that sees the Lord’s return. I believe that the generation of 1948 is the last generation. Since a generation of judgment is forty years and the Tribulation period lasts seven years, I believe the Lord could come back for His Church any time before the Tribulation starts, which would mean any time before 1981. (1948 + 40 – 7 = 1981).”
Which “season” is Chuck predicting these days?
You can't expect someone with a theology that has the spiritual nutritional value of a Pixy Stix to understand the difference.
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