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To: safisoft
You wrote:

Humility and grace are the characteristics of truth. And for the record, I am neither Supercesionist or Dispensationalist. I am a “whole Bible” follower of Messiah.”

And now you speak with humility and grace when you claim:

We don't cut the Bible into parts:

Of course you do. When was the last time you killed an animal and spread the blood on the doorposts or your house according to the Law of Moses? When was the last time you stoned an adulterer to death according to the Law of Moses? When was the last time you went to a Levite to have your skin disease investigated? When was the last time you observed any of the Levitical holy days according to the Law of Moses?

In light of this, it's a bit disingenuous to say you don't cut the Bible into parts, don't you think?

We don't think Abraham, Moses, and David were Christians (or proto-Christians).

Abraham was a Christian. Jesus said so Himself when He told the unbelieving Jews, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56).

We know the "saving" faith of those listed in Hebrews 11 is identical to the "saving" faith that those who follow the Messiah of Israel have today.

As do most Christians.

We know that Messiah did not abolish any part of Scripture, and we don't think "fullfilled" (Matthew 5:17-18) means "done away with" or "rendered moot."

Of course you do. Thre is much in the Law that you do not observe according to Moses. See above.

Which means, if He is a humble, merciful, and observant Jew -

But you are confused. Jesus never asked anyone to be an “observant Jew” like Him. In fact it is impossible to be an “observant Jew” like Jesus. There is no temple. There are no Levites. There is no sacrifice. None of the conditions that made keeping the Law possible in the days of Jesus exist today. The temple is gone, destroyed forever by God's will. The new covenant is the operative basis for coming to God today. Jews and Greeks on equal standing.

Best you can do today is to be an “observant Jew” according to the rules of the rabbis who know not Jesus. Jesus never told anyone to be like that.

Everyone is a “supersessionist” or “dispensationalist” to a certain degree.

236 posted on 03/02/2009 4:58:32 PM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54
Of course you do. When was the last time you killed an animal and spread the blood on the doorposts or your house according to the Law of Moses?

First, what is the "Law of Moses" - I will assume you are speaking categorically, and not prejoritively since the most often repeated phrase in all of Scripture is, "The L-RD spoke to Moses, speak to the children of Israel saying..." It is the "Law of the L-RD."

If you knew the Torah, you would know that to offer animals outside of the confines and protocols of the Tabernacle/Temple is against the Torah. And yes, when the Temple is rebuilt I would hope to go and draw near. In fact, the way the commandment is given, it is obedience to NOT make offerings outside of the Temple. Also, if you knew the Torah, then you would know that individual offerings are voluntary, with few exceptions... so you won't have to go... But the first Apostles would quibble with you over it. They went, and offered offerings as long as 20 years after Jesus ascended. Read Acts 21-22.

The temple is gone, destroyed forever by G-d's will.

But of course a Supercessionist would completely ignore whole chapters of the holy Scripture if they do not fit with their prepackaged theology. Ezekiel 4-48. Ezekiel 37, Zexchariah 14. Isaiah 2, Malachi 4, etc.

Everyone is a “supersessionist” or “dispensationalist” to a certain degree.

I can assure you, we are not. Not even the slightest. It is quite refreshing to read Scripture as valid, and timeless... as eternal words of life coming from the Eternal G-d. You should try it. It will make you a happier and more contented person. Certainly, there is something to learn from the "most humble of all men" - Moses (Numbers 12).
237 posted on 03/02/2009 6:18:20 PM PST by safisoft
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To: topcat54
Best you can do today is to be an “observant Jew” according to the rules of the rabbis who know not Jesus. Jesus never told anyone to be like that.

I apologize, I did not know that you also removed Matthew 23 from your Bible. If you followed well-documented First Century history, you would know that the Pharisee party is what reconstituded Judaism in 70 CE in Yavneh under Yochanan ben Zachia [John son of Zacheus].So, there is an unbroken line from 30 CE to modern times. You may want to order a set of Talmud, you have some catching up to do < grin >.

Matthew 23:1-3: When Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

In all seriousness, the Talmud records Jewish believers in Messiah living among and worshipping with normative Judaism well into the Sixth Century CE. They sure weren't welcome in normative Christianity... John Chrystostom and ilk made sure of that (you know John, the "Doctor of the Church" - he learned his hatred of Jews from the most noted Justin Martyr's theology).
239 posted on 03/02/2009 6:32:39 PM PST by safisoft
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