Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

No degree for creator of Mormon calendar
Houston Chronicle ^ | March 2, 2009

Posted on 03/03/2009 7:44:26 PM PST by delacoert

Brigham Young University has denied an appeal to award a diploma that the creator of a Mormon beefcake calendar says he earned.

Chad Hardy's diploma was withheld by BYU last fall after he was excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which owns and runs the school. Hardy was excommunicated during the month between completing his courses and graduation ceremonies.

Hardy appealed and met with Dean of Students Vernon L. Heperi on Feb. 13. In the meeting, Heperi sought to determine whether Hardy's life is guided by the school's honor code, which reflects the values of the Mormon church.

(Excerpt) Read more at chron.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: byu; chadhardy; hardy; lds; mormon
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 201-250251-300301-350351-389 last
To: Stourme

Neither group is going to hell. You see, baptism is a means of grace (a concept the LDS don’t understand).

The denominations that practice infant baptism (where the child is baptized so that they may grow in faith) have the rite of confirmation, which is a public declaration of faith.

For the groups that do not practice infant baptism (they have baby dedications where a child is blessed so that they may grow in faith). Then baptism becomes a public declaration of faith.

Very similar concepts. But I do not expect someone who is active LDS to understand. It is not hypocrisy, it is meat to someone who has only had SPOILED MILK.

Before we “major in the minors”, lets get back to who Christ is. Is he an exalted man, equal in spirit to the rest of us (spirit brother), who led a perfect life and was therefore given exaltation early. Oh yeah, and God’s biological child.

Or is He a unique creation, the Son of God, who was sinless because He is God. This Christ died on Cross for the sins of mankind, all sins not just a few. Even your sins.

You have been told the truth, not just by me, but by others. Yet you reject it, in favor of your religiousity, much like the Pharasees during Christ’s life.

THAT rejection, my FRiend, is a one way ticket to Hell.


351 posted on 03/08/2009 8:45:31 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 349 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
Reaganaut harshly responded

The statement was expressing the poster's opinion of your response; it was not reading your mind or attributing motives. If it had said that you intended such and such, it would have been "making it personal."
352 posted on 03/08/2009 8:46:48 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 338 | View Replies]

To: Stourme; reaganaut
What is so hard about answering the question that I asked you???? Why can't you answer that question??

As I recall stormie, you haven't answered a lot of questions that I have submitted to you. What shall we call your redherring then? It doesn't matter if babies are baptised or not. What does matter is the Person, Nature and Work of that God - or in your case - gods. And that I will address. Tell us of your testimony stormie, that you believe the book of mormon and joseph smith is a prophet. Where is the archaeological evidence for the bom? DNA disproves the bom story (and historic teachings by these so-called prophets) that the Amerindians are descendents of Lehi. How many 'prophecies' of smith came to pass????. Which contradictory story of the first vision is the correct one and which one is false teaching? Is Jehovah = heavenly father (as smith and the early mormon church taught) or is it Jesus as later teachings state. Joseph lied about adultry/bigamy before his congregants and the law - is God all about endorsing a lie to the gospel principle. The translation of the scroll from which smith translated the book of abraham bears no resemblence to what the true translation is.

No, your own scriptures and church history are adequate to condemn mormonism as false doctine(s). Gal 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

353 posted on 03/08/2009 8:49:27 PM PDT by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 349 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

Mormonism! The Other American Cult, Placemarker!


354 posted on 03/08/2009 9:18:45 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I, El Rushbo -- and I say this happily -- have hijacked Obama's honeymoon.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 353 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
Neither group is going to hell. You see, baptism is a means of grace (a concept the LDS don’t understand).

The denominations that practice infant baptism (where the child is baptized so that they may grow in faith) have the rite of confirmation, which is a public declaration of faith.


Nice try but wrong. Teaching a false doctrine is teaching a false doctrine.

Catholics believe baptism removes original sin. And is necessary for salvation. Whatever you're teaching, it is against Catholic teaching.

The Lutherans say:
(Augsburg Confession)
Article IX: Of Baptism. Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace. They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.
Maybe you don't really know what the rest of modern "christianity" believes. Is that the problem?

The Catholics aren't wishy washy about it.

SALVATION IS THROUGH THE CHURCH

36. Based on what has been said, no one can obtain salvation from Christ unless they do so through the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the visible Body of Christ.
Now that's conviction that I can respect.

Reaganaut, I have shown you that what you claim about baptism is in complete opposition to what Christianity officially teaches.

So, according to your own words:
Yes, I would. I would also say that someone who has been shown the truth, yet CHOOSES TO BELIEVE A LIE, is going to hell.
Who do you say is going to hell, Catholics, Baptists, or you?

*I included you as a possible choice for you to choose from because you're teaching something different than they are.*
355 posted on 03/08/2009 9:20:21 PM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 351 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

I am not teaching false doctrine. It is you who fails to understand the bigger picture.

What I stated is in agreement with those statements posted. But again, someone with no concept of accurate theology (Mormons) cannot be expected to understand.

Neither Catholics, Protestants, or I am headed to Hell.

*Shakes dust of my feet*


356 posted on 03/08/2009 9:27:34 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 355 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

correction: That should have been:

*Shakes the dust off of my feet”


357 posted on 03/08/2009 9:28:38 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 356 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
I am not teaching false doctrine. It is you who fails to understand the bigger picture.

What I stated is in agreement with those statements posted. But again, someone with no concept of accurate theology (Mormons) cannot be expected to understand.

Anti-Mormon rule #1: When you feel backed into a corner, insult the Mormons and hope the attention gets shifted.

But we're not talking about the Mormons now are we?

You can't create a bigger picture where one doesn't exist.

Contradicting "christian" doctrine is what it is and no amount of distraction, wishful thinking, and denial can change that reality.

1. Catholics and Lutherans doctrine is set in stone. Its documented and authorized by their respective organizations. These organizations have gone to war over their respective doctrines.

As I have shown you in official Lutheran doctrine, the Lutherans publicly state that the baptist teach false doctrine.

Do you agree with them?

2. Their doctrines are diametrically opposed to the other side of "christianity", the Baptist sects.

The Baptist sects proclaim that the Lutheran doctrine is wrong. Do you agree with them?

They both can't be right. Because each of them insist that the other is wrong. And at times violently insist.

You can't change that, or deny it.

My question to you still stands. Which one of them is teaching false doctrine???

If that question is too difficult, let me simplify it some; are the Lutherans teaching false doctrine when they condemn the Baptist?

That's a very simple yes or no question.
358 posted on 03/08/2009 10:41:07 PM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 356 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
Which group is teaching false doctrine??

Let me help:

Neither.


Which MORMON group is the true one?

The one group, led by people afraid of the Murdering, Bigotted Mobs in Missouri, who FLED to Utah; or the the ones who were NOT afraid to stay behind, thereby keeping title to all the property - real and intellectual?

359 posted on 03/09/2009 4:34:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 349 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
But I do not expect someone who is active LDS to understand.

Humph!

We UNDERSTAND Baptisim for the DEAD; so why would we NOT understand ALL things pertaining to any type of Baptism?

--MormonDude(When will YOU decide to learn more about the Restored Gospel®? We have young, HIGHLY trained missionaries ready for your call - day or night.)

360 posted on 03/09/2009 4:37:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 351 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator
Reaganaut harshly responded

The statement was expressing the poster's opinion of your response; it was not reading your mind or attributing motives.

Thank you for clarifying FR's position on this.

It will be helpful in the future.

361 posted on 03/09/2009 4:39:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 352 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

SALVATION IS THROUGH THE CHURCH 36. Based on what has been said, no one can obtain salvation from Christ unless they do so through the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the visible Body of Christ.

Now that's conviction that I can respect.

Indeed!!


 
 

 


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?


"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph"
--Brigham Young
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224



  Teaching a false doctrine is teaching a false doctrine.

362 posted on 03/09/2009 4:44:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 355 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
Catholics believe baptism removes original sin.

Are you one of those LDS Organizational® members who complain about NON-Mormons telling the world what they alledgedly believe?

363 posted on 03/09/2009 4:46:35 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 355 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
Anti-Mormon rule #1: When you feel backed into a corner, insult the Mormons and hope the attention gets shifted.

But we're not talking about the Mormons now are we?

Mormon rule #1: When you ARE backed into a corner, do NOT answer questions except with a question of your OWN. CONTROL the direction of conversation and point out alledged problems in CHRISTIANITY and shift THEM into the defensive mode.

That way we'll not be talking about MORMONism any more!

364 posted on 03/09/2009 4:55:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 358 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
Contradicting "christian" doctrine is what it is and no amount of distraction, wishful thinking, and denial can change that reality.
 
 
Pointing out "MORMON" doctrine is what it is and no amount of distraction, wishful thinking, and denial can change that reality.


 D&C 89:7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
 



 

THE

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 71

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

1–4, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are sent forth to proclaim the gospel; 5–11, Enemies of the saints shall be confounded.

1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.
2 Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about, and in the church also, for the space of a season, even until it shall be made known unto you.
3 Verily this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you.
4 Wherefore, labor ye in my vineyard. Call upon the inhabitants of the earth, and bear record, and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations which are to come.
5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;
6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power.
7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.
8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.
9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper;
10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time.
11 Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.

365 posted on 03/09/2009 5:03:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 358 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
1. Catholics and Lutherans doctrine is set in stone. Its documented and authorized by their respective organizations. These organizations have gone to war over their respective doctrines.

As I have shown you in official Lutheran doctrine, the Lutherans publicly state that the baptist teach false doctrine.

You HAVE??

Where was the LINK?

Where's the PROOF of your allegations?

No - it is NOT enough to continue to ACCUSE folks - unless SOMEone are being run by SATAN.

Are you?

366 posted on 03/09/2009 5:05:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 358 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

You really and truly get it. Matter of fact you have a better grasp on the concepts of the body of Christ than many “lifers”...


367 posted on 03/09/2009 6:19:49 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 351 | View Replies]

To: Stourme; reaganaut
My question to you still stands. Which one of them is teaching false doctrine???

The Mysteries of Godliness-A History of Mormon Temple Worship-Part Three Celestial Marriage

Two additional ceremonies were introduced in 1843 about a year following the initial conferral of the new endowment: celestial marriage for time and eternity and the fullness of the priesthood or the second anointing. Celestial marriage was applied to and equated with plural marriage until the late nineteenth century.68 Although in March 1836 and again in May 1842 Smith declared the endowment complete and the fullness of the priesthood restored, by late August 1842 he prayed that "the Lord Almighty...will continue to preserve me...until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life, and so firmly established the dispensation of the fullness of the priesthood in the last days, that all the powers of earth and hell can never prevail against it."69 Almost a year later on 6 August 1843, Brigham Young confirmed that the fullness of the priesthood had not yet been given: "[I]f any in the Church had the fullness of the Melchisedec Priesthood, [I do] not know it." Clearly, Smith had discussed this concept with Young, for Young added, "For any person to have the fulness of that pristhood must be a king & a priest....A person may be anointed king & priest before they receive their kingdom &c." 70

Other facets of Mormon thinking had also matured by the time Brigham Young made that statement. Particularly important was a refinement of the Latter-day Saint view of "eternal life." Prior to receiving the "three degrees of glory" vision in February 1832 (now D&C 76), Mormons, including Smith, understood eternal life in the same sense as other Protestants—as an undifferentiated heaven as the only alternative to an undifferentiated hell. Even after February 1832 and possibly as late as 1843, Smith apparently still conceived "eternal life" as dwelling in the presence of Elohim (God) forever. It was not until May 1843 that Smith ostensibly taught that the celestial kingdom71 contained gradations, with the highest gradation reserved solely for men and women who entered into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage (see D&C 131:1- 4).72 In July 1843 Smith dictated another revelation (now D&C 132) which defined those achieving "exaltation" in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom as "gods."73

The importance of this teaching is seen in another sermon given shortly thereafter on 27 August 1843. Significantly, these comments occurred in a discussion of three orders or levels of priesthood: the Levitical or Aaronic order, the patriarchal order of Abraham, and the fullness of the priesthood of Melchizedek which included "kingly powers" of "anointing & sealing—called elected and made sure."74 Said Smith: "No man can attain to the Joint heirship with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec." This authority and power came not from "a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarch only but of [a] King & Priest [of Jesus Christ]."75

-SNIP-

As Brigham Young would explain after Smith's death, "Every man that gets his endowment...[has been] ordained to the Melchisedeck Priesthood, which is the highest order of Priesthood....those who have come in here and have received their washing & anointing will be ordained Kings & Priests, and will then have received the fulness of the Priesthood, all that can be given on earth, for Brother Joseph said he had given us all that could be given to man on the earth."84

The first part of the ceremony—being anointed and ordained a king and priest or queen and priestess—is administered in a temple Holy of Holies or sealing room set apart for that purpose, and is performed by or under the direction of the president of the church. There are usually but not always two witnesses. Only the husband and wife need to dress in their temple robes. The husband leads in a prayer circle, offering signs and praying at an altar. He is then anointed with oil on the top of his head, after which hands are laid on his head and he is ordained a king and a priest unto God to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever. This ordinance gives him the fullness of the priesthood. He is also blessed with the following (as the officiator determines): the power to bind and loose, curse and bless; the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the Holy Spirit of Promise; to live as long as desired; to attain godhood; to be sealed to eternal life (if not done previously); to have the power to open the heavens; and other blessings.

Next the wife is anointed with oil on the top of her head, after which hands are laid on her head and she is ordained a queen and a priestess unto her husband, to rule and reign with him in his kingdom forever. She is blessed with the following: to receive all the blessings of the everlasting priesthood; to be an heir to all the blessings sealed upon her husband; to be exalted with her husband; to have ministering angels attend her; to be sealed up to eternal life; to receive the blessings of godhood; to live as long as desired; to have the power of eternal lives (of posterity without end); and other blessings. The specifics of the anointing are recorded by hand in a large leather-bound register.

At the conclusion of this ordinance, the washing of the husband's feet by his wife is explained to the couple. It is a private ordinance, without witnesses. Its significance is related to the resurrection of the dead, as Heber Kimball noted.86 The couple is told to attend to the ordinance at a date of their choosing in the privacy of their home. At the determined time the husband dedicates the home and the room in which they perform the ordinance, which then follows the pattern of Mary's anointing Jesus in Matthew 12. What the wife does is in memory of what Mary did: she washes and anoints the body of her husband (similar to the initiatory washings and anointings performed in the temple). The ordinance symbolically prepares the husband for burial, and in this way the wife lays claim upon him in the resurrection.87 Having authority, she also pronounces those blessings she feels appropriate upon her husband. Kimball's journal entry derives from a speculative belief taught by early Mormons that Jesus married Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus.88 Historical records indicate that the husband and wife perform the second part of the priesthood ordinance from a few days to as much as a few years after the second anointing.89 Only the first part of the second anointing can be performed vicariously for the dead, and only by those who have already received the ordinance.90

A history of mormon temple worship

Now, just WHAT were you saying about "false doctrine"???

 

 


368 posted on 03/09/2009 7:06:24 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Recession-Your neighbor loses his job, Depression-you lost your job, Recovery-Obama loses HIS job.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 358 | View Replies]

To: Stourme; reaganaut
You know Stourme, you bring up very valid points and it explains a lot of things that occur between different “sects” of so called "Christians".

I remember back in 2005 when while on an ecumenical mission trip down to the Mississippi coast how the Lutherans killed at least 3 Baptist and tossed their bodies into the gulf.

Don't get me started about how bad some of my fellow Methodist beat down a few Catholics at an inner church basketball tournament, I know at least one of the “Pope lovers” is still walking with a limp.

Add to that the tens of thousands of dead and wounded in America alone that happens every Christmas when arguments of which Carols should be sung or whether the Wise men came that day or a few weeks later and other issues raise their ugly heads. Not to mention the so called “Ecumenical Christmas Morning Worship Service” that some churches have that is really a cover to kill off those from other sect and get rid of those lousy heretic.

You are right, there is way to much violence between these sects, I don't even see how they can exist in the same country much less the same room holding hands in prayer to the same loving father and his only begotten son.

(BTW, in case you or anyone else is a bit slow on the up take, this is sarcasm...)

369 posted on 03/09/2009 7:28:58 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 358 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
You know Stourme, you bring up very valid points and it explains a lot of things that occur between different “sects” of so called "Christians".
Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
RELIGIOUSLY-BASED CIVIL UNREST & WARFARE
In Northern Ireland, "the troubles" are partly rooted in Catholic/Protestant differences, partly in political allegiances, and probably partly in hatreds that go back so far that the exact reason is lost in the mists of time.
After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.

370 posted on 03/09/2009 10:41:43 AM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 369 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
Yeah, that happens over in Atlanta too...

About 200 thousand dead so far this year alone just over how high a cross should be!

Don't get me started about Dallas last year! Whew doggies...

BTW read your own articles, there is much more than simple religious differences such as baptism concepts going on in Ireland, and I think anyone who has read the news AND paid attention the past 30 years or more knows that.

Your article also clearly states that the solution to the violence was independent status for the Country. Exactly how does that address religious issues and divisions? Sound a tick political to me.

And notice I did not even ask for a link? Why, because I know what you posted is true, I have been aware of the Irish issues for years. The problem is that it doesn't totally fit your case.

But thanks for playing.

Now if you excuse me, I am headed off to smash the stained glass windows over at the Episcopals place...

Or was that the Lutherans?

I will have to check my day timer...

371 posted on 03/09/2009 10:56:57 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 370 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

You really and truly get it. Matter of fact you have a better grasp on the concepts of the body of Christ than many “lifers”...


Thank you.


372 posted on 03/09/2009 11:22:09 AM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 367 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

placemark


373 posted on 03/10/2009 6:29:55 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Recession-Your neighbor loses his job, Depression-you lost your job, Recovery-Obama loses HIS job.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 372 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

Dear Stourme,

Thanks for your reply. I sincerely appreciate your devotion to your religion. I’m not sure why some of the Mormon faith have a way of finding imaginary insult when indeed none exists. I do, however, understand the anger.

I would be angry knowing that I’ve been lied to and led to believe the impossible: that I could accept a “cultist” atmosphere as being sincerely tied to God, and thereafter, I could become as God Himself, or a god of my own choosing - on a planet of my own - assuming I’m male (which I’m not).

I assure that if you were to seek out the Truth, you would find its (Mormonism’s) foundations unacceptable to the Way.

As to your reply. You quoted so much of the Mormon “scripture” that put me to the task of reading not only Mormon sites but posts of what some Mormons call “anti” here on FR and elsewhere. I could devote a lot of time on this term (“anti”) alone as to the psychological effect so much so that it would need a thread of its own. I’ll leave that be for time’s sake.

The D&C, Book of Mormon, etc. , cited by you and others of your religion does little - actually nothing - to sway me. I am Christian. I have read loads of the Mormon history and way, and always walk away feeling dirty because of its having been produced by polygamists, criminals, etc., and having wasted dear time that could have been spent in the Holy Bible.

This, surely, comes as no surprise to you if you’ve indeed read the very basics of Mormon history.

Please do not mistake this as an insult, rather take it as a truth to those trying to mesh Mormonism with Christianity: The Koran is an equivalent.

It (the Koran), sides with “God” when necessary to convert others in the beginning. Then, lo and behold, and not known to the unsuspecting, the serpent slides in and seeks to destroy and take away the believer from God in such a sly way so subtle and so easily acceptable because its evil is enwrapped in the Word — added therein are the words of men who are nothing less than slayers of the soul.

Do you believe that Joseph Smith’s (founder) preaching of polygamy (later rejected by other church leaders) was right or wrong? Which is it in the mind of current Mormons?

Who was right? J. S. or the others following him? Or is that God said, “Hey, I was wrong. I was right when I said it was ok to have multiple wives, but now I realise I was wrong,” ?

The posts of most of your faith are filled with nothing but questions in response to sincere questions. That is unacceptable in adult conversation. Needless to say, it’s difficult to have a decent and intelligent conversation with those who only respond with questions. Always with the shifting.

I will defend my Lord, Jesus the Christ, and His Word as being right forever. I don’t need someone to tell me that God wavers; I believe that to be a personal damnation of the Word of God or, someone saying at heart that they need more, more, more, to prove God. No thanks. You keep it.

Understand, I cannot reject the Word of God. I cannot accept the words of someone who believes that God constantly changes the rules to suit the man writing at the time - no matter what hat he may wear.

I do appreciate your reply. I hope ALL people should come to know Jesus Christ as Lord, but to understand that no one will ever be as He. Perhaps, in short, that should be the test: “Does my religion teach me that I will be equal to my God?”

If so, please, get out of your “church”.

HE is Creator. HE is Savior. HE IS LORD AND EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW. Including yours and mine.

As you said you did with me, I’ve taken the time to read some of your posts. Perhaps I may be booted for saying so, but yours are hostile to Christians and yet you seem to take offense at those speaking (writing) to you in a meek and mild manner.

Stourme, I’ll do as another poster here and “shake the dust off. . . ”.

I wish you the best, however, and hope you read enough here or elsewhere to see the fallacy, lies, and damnation within the words of your Hope Ticket to Heaven, Joseph Smith.

BR


374 posted on 03/10/2009 8:14:45 PM PDT by Birmingham Rain ("Where you tend a rose, my lad, a thistle cannot grow." (The Secret Garden))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 316 | View Replies]

To: Birmingham Rain
I wish you the best, however, and hope you read enough here or elsewhere to see the fallacy, lies, and damnation within the words of your Hope Ticket to Heaven, Joseph Smith.

Photobucket

375 posted on 03/11/2009 6:45:07 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Recession-Your neighbor loses his job, Depression-you lost your job, Recovery-Obama loses HIS job.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 374 | View Replies]

To: Birmingham Rain; Stourme; restornu; Sentinal; greyfoxx39; Colofornian; P-Marlowe
I have been wanting to explain why I post in these threads, and looking for the right post in the right thread in which to respond to previous requests to know my confession ("denomination").

I found redemption though Jesus Christ when I was 19 (33 years ago), and I have stumbled more than a few times along the way. Only recently did I come to terms with a terrible need for approval that was inside me - a need that made me susceptible to being in a cult. Not only to be in one, but to be active and "successful" in it - a pattern of living that had helped make me "successful" in most areas of life.

30+ years ago I was a member of a non-denominational congregation that turned abusive. I had been a member of that congregation for about 4 years when the head pastor changed. The new pastor led the congregation toward a brand of charismatic chaos established by Hobart Freeman. By destructive, I mean a mean a rigid culture that: relegated women to servitude (including my wonderful wife who knew it was bondage from the beginning); demanded rejection of medical treatment (leading to the death of babies); incorporated outrageously false prophecy; sent out large numbers of freshly minted young pastors to travel and speak at meetings over a wide area; and much more. I hang my head in shame now as think of it, and of my part in it, however small.

My wife and I left that church before too long. However, I did not come to terms with how hurt I was for about 20 years. I could not face facts about how painful and destructive it was to me until about 4 years ago. The testimony of recovering Mormons helped me the most. Their testimonies helped me admit to myself that I had been in a cult (though not a Mormon one). Most importantly, their testimonies helped me to see the terrible need for approval that was inside me. Testimonies about the confusion, pain, anger and guilt were very similar to my own experience. Though the theology was quite different, I recognized the controlling and manipulating behavior of the leaders. The denial behavior of the congregation was also very similar (me included - or should I say especially).

By mentioning these things I hope to have partially explained why I choose to post the way I do. My weaknesses and failures allowed me to live in a cult. I lived in pain from it for a long time. I was helped by reading the testimonies of former Mormons. Cults are cults and they're destructive, so I will talk about it in hopes that it helps someone. The truth has set me free, and keeps setting me free.

I've already gone on too long, but there is something else I want to explain: My mother was Roman Catholic and my father converted to Catholicism, though raised Lutheran. I was raised Roman Catholic, and received Baptism at Our Lady of Grace Parish, Ballston Lake, NY. I received First Communion, and Confirmation at Holy Family Parish in Syracuse, NY. I was catechized and otherwise educated in Augustinian tradition through graduation from college at Villanova University. As a boy, I was strongly influenced by the charismatic renewal in the Roman Catholic Church. As I now think about it, I see that the charismatic renewal made it easy for me to look outside the Catholic Church, and I did so as a young man. I was baptized again in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost (as with Roman Catholicism), but this time by full immersion in a public swimming pool in 1978. In the the non-denominational, charismatic chaos of the late 70s, I met my wife-to-be, and we were married in 1982. Even though I would like to discuss returning to Roman Catholic Church, my wife won’t discuss it, period.

The last part may explain why I post in some Catholic threads. I hope that my desire to participate in both Protestant and Catholic threads does not offend anyone. I also hope that I have explained my confession ("denomination").

376 posted on 03/11/2009 3:30:06 PM PDT by delacoert
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 374 | View Replies]

To: delacoert
Thank you for sharing your story, D. May you ever walk with God and his only begotten Son, Jesus, in your future journey. My prayers are with you.

GF

377 posted on 03/11/2009 3:38:33 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Recession-Your neighbor loses his job, Depression-you lost your job, Recovery-Obama loses HIS job.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 376 | View Replies]

To: delacoert

Oh delacort, Thank you for your post!

God can use the evil things of the world for His purposes, and He is using your experiences in a mighty way.

Don’t let others get you down. Keep your focus on Him, always, and you will find strength.


378 posted on 03/11/2009 3:39:24 PM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 376 | View Replies]

To: delacoert

Appreciate your sharing. I’m praying that healing will come to you and your family quickly.


379 posted on 03/11/2009 4:30:15 PM PDT by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 376 | View Replies]

To: delacoert
“I found redemption though Jesus Christ when I was 19 (33 years ago), and I have stumbled more than a few times along the way. Only recently did I come to terms with a terrible need for approval that was inside me - a need that made me susceptible to being in a cult. Not only to be in one, but to be active and "successful" in it - a pattern of living that had helped make me "successful" in most areas of life.” Delacoert, you are of the humble whom the Lord seeks. After many years did I learn that I need seek only approval from God - above family (very hard to face this fact - “Family or God?”), friends, co-workers, etc. Eternal approval won over. Yours is a testimony I understand completely, and I am thankful you posted it. Seeking approval from others has caused nothing but pain and sin in my life. Once I knew that God wanted me as His child, my whole world and thought process turned around: “He loves me and wants me as His child?” What a beautiful answer He gives. So much - as I’m sure you know - to bring tears streaming down the face of one who really sees His love covering our sins so detestable and so hurtful to Him who loves us so very much and wants nothing less than the best for us, His children. Thank you for sharing, Dela. Amazing grace, indeed! My Best, BR
380 posted on 03/11/2009 6:13:03 PM PDT by Birmingham Rain ("Where you tend a rose, my lad, a thistle cannot grow." (The Secret Garden))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 376 | View Replies]

To: delacoert

Thank you for your story. May you be healed in Him. My prayers are with you Brother.


381 posted on 03/11/2009 9:16:33 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 376 | View Replies]

To: Birmingham Rain
I’m not sure why some of the Mormon faith have a way of finding imaginary insult when indeed none exists. I do, however, understand the anger.
cultist”
Me too. I realize you're calling me a "cultist" in the most unoffensive manner. I really shouldn't take offense at that.

Silly me..
I assure that if you were to seek out the Truth, you would find its (Mormonism’s) foundations unacceptable to the Way.
I cannot believe anyone could say something like this with a straight face.

It's truly mind numbing that people can point fingers at the LDS and decry our founding and at the same time completely ignore the founding of their own church. But some how, burning people at the stake gets a pass. The inquisitions get a pass. The Crusades get a pass. ....sheesh the list is too long to repeat here...1500 years of torture and murder are some how dwarfed by Josesph Smith having more than one wife...like Abraham did...just...wow.
I could become as God Himself
Do you deny these scriptures exists?

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Romans 8:16 - 17 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
....notice the "joint-heirs with Christ" and the "glorified together" parts. Glorified together with Christ....that doesn't mean, below Him.
Do you believe that Joseph Smith’s (founder) preaching of polygamy (later rejected by other church leaders) was right or wrong? Which is it in the mind of current Mormons?
He was right.

I will finish this response later, unfortunately due to some physical limitations, I can't continue at this time.
382 posted on 03/12/2009 11:25:30 AM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 374 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

“Me too. I realize you’re calling me a “cultist” in the most unoffensive manner. I really shouldn’t take offense at that.”

Take it as you like. Mormon posts here are always knocking Christians so I couldn’t care less how it’s taken. Mormonism is a cult. You live by its tenets; live with the fact of what it is.

“I cannot believe anyone could say something like this with a straight face.”

It’s hard to say anything about Mormonism with a straight face .

“It’s truly mind numbing that people can point fingers at the LDS and decry our founding and at the same time completely ignore the founding of their own church. But some how, burning people at the stake gets a pass. The inquisitions get a pass. The Crusades get a pass. ....sheesh the list is too long to repeat here...1500 years of torture and murder are some how dwarfed by Josesph Smith having more than one wife...like Abraham did...just...wow.”

Like Abraham did without God’s consent? Sorry, I missed God’s approval of Abraham’s decision to take on Hagar. Is it in one of your books, perhaps?

I’m not sure how to take the rest of that paragraph. Do you sincerely believe Joseph Smith’s only wrong was having more than one wife? The souls his teachings are leading straight South concern me the most. And I don’t remember ever giving the Inquisition or Crusades a pass, but I’m glad you at least acknowledge the separation of Christianity and Mormonism by stating, “... decry our founding and at the same time completely ignore the founding of their own church.” Can you find my post that did give the pass and refer me to it so that I can beg apologies for it something I don’t remember ever posting in the first place? I seem to have misplaced it.

“Do you deny these scriptures exists?

“ 1 John 3:2
“ 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

“ Romans 8:16 - 17 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
“17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

“....notice the “joint-heirs with Christ” and the “glorified together” parts. Glorified together with Christ....that doesn’t mean, below Him.”

It doesn’t mean below Him? Are you kidding me? You believe you will be equal with Jesus? Puleeze. To share in the glories of Heaven, yes; to be with Him, yes; but, to be as Him, NO!! Oh, please. Even trying to interpret Scripture in such a way as to set yourself up as God should raise a red flag. Can you truly not see that? Can you not understand that you were made to worship God, not to be Him?

We are CHILDREN of God, not God Himself, nor shall we ever be. HITTING YOU OVER THE HEAD WITH A FRYING PAN: Do you not believe Scripture insofar as God is above all and always will be? Do you believe that being glorified along with Him is saying that you will be glorified AS Him? And that begs the question: Who’s going to glorify whom? If everyone’s equal, who’s left to do the worshiping? Do you really believe God is going to sink to our level at some point in the future? Do you think He is going to sin and become like us so we all can sing along and praise Joseph Smith for passing out tickets so that God can sit around and be with us? No. Uh uh. Assuming that your ticket will one day be validated, you will be worshiping God - not t’other way around. Or, is the task of worshiping going to be left to the womenfolk? (You see any problem with any of this yet?)

Hey, listen. I’m sorry you’re suffering from physical limitations, and I hope you’re not in pain.

Continue when you feel like it. I’m off and on and never in a hurry.

Get well soon (and YES I MEAN IT so please don’t insult me for saying it).

BR


383 posted on 03/12/2009 4:37:34 PM PDT by Birmingham Rain ("Where you tend a rose, my lad, a thistle cannot grow." (The Secret Garden))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 382 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

B’ham Rain: “Do you believe that Joseph Smith’s (founder) preaching of polygamy (later rejected by other church leaders) was right or wrong? Which is it in the mind of current Mormons?”

Stourme: “He was right.”


Do tell. Curious minds want to know. ‘Specially mine!

JS was right? Now the current prophets are wrong and The Word is ever changing within the Mormons’ collective mind to suit the needs of the agenda for the day (or the hot, burning, lusting desires of those wanting younger and younger wives).

What absolute bunk.


384 posted on 03/12/2009 4:44:06 PM PDT by Birmingham Rain ("Where you tend a rose, my lad, a thistle cannot grow." (The Secret Garden))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 382 | View Replies]

To: Birmingham Rain

You believe you will be equal with Jesus?


The way it was explained to me (by the LDS missionaries) was this:

“Since we are all children of God, then he wants us to be just like him. Just as we want our children to have better lives then we had, God wants his spirit children to have the best afterlife we can. That means exaltation and eternal progression.”

I really cannot believe I fell for that. I thank God I was not struck down for that blasphemy and that He eventually opened my eyes.

Rather than wanting to BECOME a god, I now, with absolute joy, bow before His majesty because He ALONE is God.


385 posted on 03/12/2009 6:46:30 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 383 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

“Rather than wanting to BECOME a god, I now, with absolute joy, bow before His majesty because He ALONE is God.”


What beautiful words, Reaganaut. You ever stop and wonder what we would be like - now that we are children of God - without Him? What lonely lives we would have and how we would continue in sorrowful sin without His grace? I already know what my life would be: just the same sick world I lived in and chose before He came into my life.

When He saved us He gave us the mission to put Him first, and to tell the world that He alone is King of kings, and Lord of lords.

There’s no Joseph Smith to tell me how close I can be to Him; no barriers except those of my own choosing. There’s only HIM. Jesus is my Mediator, and this may come as a shock to some - HE, HE JESUS THE CHRIST, needs no mediator. He is THE Mediator.

He is my Everything.

And how very often I fail Him. Every day, minute by minute. But, HE saves; HE forgives; HE touches me and heals me and cleanses me.

He is my Everything.

I waste precious time; I squander away the talents; and I don’t always hold back my anger and give patience to those in need. He knows I’m not Him, and that I need to call on Him more and more.

He is my Everything.

Alone in bed at night, afraid of what tomorrow may bring, afraid for my family and my friends. In tears. He knows my heart and my heartaches. He says it’s all right, to not trouble my soul. For He is with me, and His Word is final.

He alone saves.

He is my Everything.

Wish I could sing it:

I long to be His possession
Oh, He is my everything
I remember my days of darkness
Without sunshine or sight to lead the way
But a whisper of His voice softly calling
To the arms of my Maker to stay

He is my reason for living,
Oh He is the king of all kings
I long to be His possession,
Oh, He is my everything

After the lightning and thunder
After the last bell has rung
I want to bow down before Him
And hear Him say well done

He is my reason for living
Oh He is the king of all kings
I long to be His possession
Oh, He is my everything

Amen!


386 posted on 03/12/2009 7:11:36 PM PDT by Birmingham Rain ("Where you tend a rose, my lad, a thistle cannot grow." (The Secret Garden))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 385 | View Replies]

To: Birmingham Rain

You ever stop and wonder what we would be like - now that we are children of God - without Him? What lonely lives we would have and how we would continue in sorrowful sin without His grace? I already know what my life would be: just the same sick world I lived in and chose before He came into my life.

When He saved us He gave us the mission to put Him first, and to tell the world that He alone is King of kings, and Lord of lords.

There’s no Joseph Smith to tell me how close I can be to Him; no barriers except those of my own choosing. There’s only HIM. Jesus is my Mediator, and this may come as a shock to some - HE, HE JESUS THE CHRIST, needs no mediator. He is THE Mediator.

He is my Everything.


That was beautiful, BR. I cannot imagine my life without Him. I am grateful that I was rescued out of Mormonism before I married and had children. I think it would have been much harder then.

Christ is my HIGH PRIEST, MY ONLY PROPHET, AND MY KING. Why would I need more. I have it all in Him and Him alone.

He is my all in all, and every day I fall more and more in love with Him.

His Glory endures forever!


387 posted on 03/12/2009 8:12:19 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 386 | View Replies]

To: Birmingham Rain
Continue when you feel like it. I’m off and on and never in a hurry.

Get well soon...
Thank you very much. In case you're curious, I was in a car wreck some time ago and took a huge hit to the head. As a result, anytime I have to focus with my eyes....it hurts and it fatigues my brain...I start getting weaker and weaker until I can't hold my self up straight.

I used to make fun of people that wore bike helmets.... not now though...ohhhh nooooes not any more....let me tell ya.

I'm on medication, which allow me to see. Without them, I go blind after a short time.

Well...enough about me...how is your day going?
Take it as you like. Mormon posts here are always knocking Christians so I couldn’t care less how it’s taken. Mormonism is a cult. You live by its tenets; live with the fact of what it is.
No Latter-day Saint ever mocks someone for following Jesus Christ. However, that not the same as examining the doctrines of various churches.

And every Latter-day Saint on this forum, including me, show a huge amount of restraint when discussing your church?

Do you not think that you're immune to being called a cultist? Do you think you're church is some how pure as fresh snow?

I could make a career out of giving modern churches a serious colon exam.

But I don't. Discussion is a good thing. But I'm not interested in tearing you down. That's not what the Lord wants me to do.
Like Abraham did without God’s consent? Sorry, I missed God’s approval of Abraham’s decision to take on Hagar. Is it in one of your books, perhaps?
Yes, it's in one of my books. The book is called Genesis. It's in the Bible.

Abraham was so righteous before God that God spoke to Abraham face to face.

Abraham was a prophet of God. Abraham did nothing unless God approved it first.

What did God send His angel to tell Abraham's second wife, Hagar?
Genesis 16:10
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
As a matter of fact, the angel was sent to Hagar because she ran away and God wanted her back with Abraham.
Genesis 21:13
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
22 And it came to pass at that time, that Abimelech and Phichol the chief captain of his host spake unto Abraham, saying, God is with thee in all that thou doest:
Abraham had two wives. God blessed Abraham's son from his second wife. God sent angels to bring Hagar back to Abraham.

Sorry BR...but that's a fact that you can't get around or explain away.
You believe you will be equal with Jesus? Puleeze. To share in the glories of Heaven, yes; to be with Him, yes; but, to be as Him, NO!!
Unfortunately modern churches have no idea why we are on this earth or what waits beyond this life.

1. Father in Heaven will always be Father in Heaven. There is order in Heaven. Jesus will always be our savior.

2. God's promise is to exalt those who follow His commandments.
Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Children grow up to be like their parents and we are children of God.

What I don't get is why people claim to accept the Bible but then reject 90% of it because it makes them uncomfortable. Each to their own I guess....
388 posted on 03/16/2009 2:17:06 PM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 383 | View Replies]

To: Stourme; Birmingham Rain; Godzilla; Colofornian; ejonesie22

Unfortunately modern churches have no idea why we are on this earth or what waits beyond this life.

"In the Beginning": A Latter-day Perspective

By Robert J. Woodford

Pre-earth Existence

The story of creation did not begin with the formation of this earth. It extends back into what we call the pre-earth, or premortal, existence. Our understanding of the events in Genesis 1–3 is not complete if we ignore what went on before.

“This doctrine of premortal life was known to ancient Christians. For nearly five hundred years the doctrine was taught, but it was then rejected as a heresy by a clergy that had slipped into the Dark Ages of apostasy,” President Packer has taught.

“Once they rejected this doctrine, the doctrine of premortal life, and the doctrine of redemption for the dead, they could never unravel the mystery of life. They became like a man trying to assemble a strand of pearls on a string that was too short. There is no way they can put them all together. …  

“There is no way to make sense out of life without a knowledge of the doctrine of premortal life.

“The idea that mortal birth is the beginning is preposterous. There is no way to explain life if you believe that.

“The notion that life ends with mortal death is ridiculous. There is no way to face life if you believe that.

“When we understand the doctrine of premortal life, then things fit together and make sense.” 6

We know from latter-day revelation that our existence did not begin with our birth on this earth and that we are eternal beings (see D&C 93:29). 7 We are the sons and daughters of God the Father—his spirit children (see Heb. 12:9; D&C 76:24). We also know that there were opportunities in the pre-earth existence for us to learn and grow and that we had our moral agency to choose (see Alma 13:3).

Additionally, we know that gender did not begin at birth; it existed in the pre-earth life. 8 In the document “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” we read: “All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” 9

We know that there was a council of the Gods in which the plan of our Eternal Father was sustained. 10 This plan included the Creation of the earth on which we now dwell (see Abr. 3:24). The plan provided that while here we would be tested according to the commandments God would give us, and we would have moral agency to choose (Moses 6:33; Moses 7:33). This plan presupposed that Adam and Eve would fall from the Garden of Eden, so it provided for the Savior (see Alma 34:9–10, 14–15), a mediator who would provide the means whereby we could succeed in this earth-life experience and return to our Father in Heaven prepared for the next phase of our development (see Alma 12:24).

A “grand council” was held. There God the Father’s spirit children were taught the plan. The firstborn of our Father’s children was chosen as the Savior and Redeemer (see Abr. 3:27). 11 Those who did not sustain that choice rebelled (see Abr. 3:28). They did not keep their first estate, were cast out of heaven, and became Satan and his angels (see Rev. 12:7–9; Moses 4:3–4; D&C 29:36; D&C 76:28).

The plan called for those who kept their first estate to come to this earth (the second estate), receive a mortal body, and be tested to see if they would obey the Father in everything (see Abr. 3:25–26). The time and “the bounds of [our] habitation” were predetermined (Acts 17:26), and some were even foreordained to callings on this earth (see Abr. 3:23; Alma 13:3–9).

Link

389 posted on 03/16/2009 2:23:55 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Recession-Your neighbor loses his job, Depression-you lost your job, Recovery-Obama loses HIS job.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 388 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 201-250251-300301-350351-389 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson