Jesus In A Cheeto? Religious Sightings

CBS4 ^

[Sawdring]

A story on the incorruptible body of a Saint, or a miracle cure due to the intercession of a Saint or the Blessed Mother, or the miracles of Fatima

I thought after mortals die, their spirits wait until they are raptured? If you are a saint, you can perform miracles like god himself?

[bdeaner]

I thought after mortals die, their spirits wait until they are raptured? If you are a saint, you can perform miracles like god himself?

God performs the miracles as a sign of a Saint's holiness. The Saints do not themselves perform miracles.

There is no such thing as a rapture. That concept is based on an improper reading of the Scriptures in Revelations.

You're obviously not Catholic, so unless you are up for some ecumenical dialogue, I don't know if we can approach any kind of understanding on doctrinal differences in this forum.

In any case, you missed my original point. The point is that the MSM uses these stories to mock the truly miraculous. You do believe in miracles don't you? If you are truly Christian, you must. If so, even if you don't like Catholics, you should be annoyed.

[Sawdring]

If so, even if you don't like Catholics, you should be annoyed.

No, I do not dislike Catholics. I think people of all Christian faiths should come together. I have a hard time with my own faith, though.

[bdeaner]

No, I do not dislike Catholics. I think people of all Christian faiths should come together. I have a hard time with my own faith, though.

That's cool. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just feel that the media uses these kinds of stories as a way to subtly denigrate faith. You never hear real stories of miracles that are credible or plausible, but there are tons of them, many substantiated by empirical evidence. Instead, they show us only what is truly ridiculous and worthy of mockery -- and by implication suggest that all faith is worthy of the same derision. But it is all by implication, so the implications can be denied if they are confronted.

I will get back to you on this thread for some well-supported and convincing miracles that are not quite so easy to mock. Just to balance things out. Note: It is not necessary to believe such miracles with certaintly in order to be Catholic. In fact, the Church encourages skepticism about these things, and point the faithful to the small miracles of everyday life, like people caring for one another, the birth of a baby, the conversion of a destitute sinner... Still, miracles have their place.

God bless.

[JSDude1]

I once saw a Cross inside a shield in the shapes of the branches of a fir tree.

[bdeaner]

The "incorruptibles" are Saints who died but whose bodies have not decayed. The unnatural preservation of the bodies--in ways that cannot be explained by mummification or other natural causes--are often one sign used to help substantiate the Sainthood of a deceased person. Not all Saints must be incorruptible, and it is not sufficient for Sainthood that a person's body is incorruptible, but it is considered a strong signal of Sainthood.

Looking to the evidence for the validity of this miracle, first we have to rule out natural causes. Indeed we find that the bodies of the incorruptibles were exposed to air and moisture that would normally encourage putrefaction, and yet they were preserved nonetheless.

For example, the incorruptible bodies of St. Bernadine of Siena, St. Angela Merici, St. Theresa Margaret of the Sacred Heart, and St. Antoninus were all exposed to the air for weeks at a time, and yet did not show any signs of putrefaction.


Body of St. Angela Merici on display


Body of St. Theresa Margaret


Body of St. Antoninus

We can also look to three incorruptibles whose bodies were exposed to lime in order to speed the decay of the body and to reduce stench from the rotting flesh. The idea was to degenerate the flesh and leave only the bones for relics. This happened to St. Francis Xavier, St. John of the Cross, and St. Pascal Baylon. In each case, their bodies were preserved, beyond all probability. In the case of St. Francis Xavier, in spite of his initial treatment, various translations, the amputation of his members for relics, and the rough handling the body endured when forced into a grave too small to accommodate its normal length, it was yet so beautiful 142 years later that the best description we have of him was recorded at the time of that examination. The body of St. John of the Cross remains even to the present day perfectly flexible!


Body of St. Francis Xavier


Body of St. John of the Cross

We can also look to moisture as a cause of decay -- most definitely a major factor in the dissolution of the body of any deceased person, yet many incorruptibles had bodies exposed to moisture who were nevertheless preserved. Take the case of St. Catherine of Genoa, who remained in her grave for 18 months, but was found perfectly spotless in spite of a damp and decayed shroud. St. Mary Magdelene de' Pazzi was disinterred one year after her death, at which time her religious clothing was found wet, although her body remained completely unaffected. St. Madeleine Sophie Barat remained perfectly perserved for 28 years although she was found in damp and mildewed garments in a casket which was in a state of advanced disintegration. Nine months after her death, St. Teresa of Avila was found in a coffin, the top of which had rotted away, permitting damp earth to cover her body. Although her remains were clothed in dirty and rotten fragments of fabric, her body was not only fresh and perfectly intact after its cleansing, but was mysteriously fragrant as well.

There was such excessive moisture in the vault of St. Charles Borromeo in the Cathedral of Milan that it causes the corrosion and rotting of his two coffin lids, causing dampness to penetrate to the body. Considering that the body had been embalmed in the customary manner in vogue at that time, it seems quite likely that the less sainted remains of another would have been either completely destroyed or seriously harmed under similar conditions. As stipulated by the rules of her order, St. Catherine of Bologna was confided to the grave without benefit of a coffin, yet her body remained undamaged after 18 days! The remains of St. Pacifico of San Severino were similarly entombed for 4 years; nevertheless, his perfect preservation was maintained.


Body of St. Charles Borromeo


Body of St. Catherine of Bologna

56 years after the death of St. Catherine Laboure, her body was found perfectly white and natural looking, even through her triple coffin had been affected in various ways by exessive moisture. So great was the amount of humidity which penetrated through cracks in the casket that part of her habit faded onto her hand, as observed by the attending physicians. The winding sheet was also found permeated with excessive dampness. The body of St. Catherine of Siena also endured abuses from dampness but was found unaffected after it had been placed in a cemetery where Blessed Raymond of Capua found that "it was much exposed to the rain." Her burial garments were said to have suffered severely from the dampness.


Body of St. Catherine Laboure

Of the many saintly relics which have survived the expected ravages of moisture during their entombments, perhaps the most oustanding is the case of St. Charbel Malhlouf, who was consigned to the grave without a coffin, as recommended by the rule of his religious order. His body was found floating in mud in a flooded grave during his exhumation, conducted 4 months after his death--a span of time sufficient to allow at least its partial destruction. His body, which has remained perfectly lifelike and flexible for more than 70 years, constantly emits a blood-like fluid, which has been acknowledged as truly prodigious.

I could go on and on with similar reports of many, many Saints. To read more, check out this page for starters. Here is an excerpt from Joan Carroll Cruz's excellent book, The Incorruptibles:

[shibumi]

Someone been stealing your stuff?

[presently no screen name]

their spirits wait until they are raptured

"Absent from the body, present (our spirit) w/the Lord". At the rapture (and there will be one), believers get a spiritual body.

perform miracles like god himself?

It's one's faith in God's Word and the power of God within the believer that produces miracles.

[razorboy]

If people wouldn’t take pictures of them the MSM wouldn’t get to make stories.

[bdeaner]

People are idiots. The MSM picks and choices which idiots to present to the public and which ones to hide, in accordance with its own agenda.

[dighton]

Nice pic, that: and regarding their beaks or bills, honi soit qui mal y pense.

[razorboy]

People are idiots, but without idiots the MSM wouldn’t have these stories to pickup. Blaming the media is going after the 2nd guilty party, the dorks who worship grilled cheese sandwiches and water stains are the prime party of guilt, even without MSM help they’re still managing to make the faith look dumb, they just have a smaller radius before the MSM shows up.

[wardaddy]

I think what you guys want to believe is fine....and believe me I wish Catholics voted as their faith dictates

but that is really odd to me....fascianting though

[bdeaner]

My point is, there will always be idiots. How do you expect to rid the world of idiots? I think there is a Nobel Prize awaiting you if you have the answer.

[bdeaner]

but that is really odd to me....fascianting though

What is odd? I'm not sure what you are referring to by "that" here. Thanks in advance for clarification.

[bdeaner]

In the First Letter of Saint Paul to the Thessalonians, Sacred Scripture tells us about the rapture:

"For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:15-17, RSV)

The phrase “shall be caught up together,” in the Latin is “simul rapiemur.” The word 'rapture' comes from the Latin of this passage. The verb 'rapio' refers to carrying something away quickly. Since this passage is a part of Sacred Scripture, the idea of a rapture cannot be dismissed as being non-existent. However, the exact meaning of this passage and of “shall be caught up together ... to meet the Lord in the air” must be carefully considered.

There is a widespread idea among Protestants that the rapture is an event whereby God takes a select group of faithful Christians out of the world before the tribulation. This idea of the rapture is incorrect and contradicts Sacred Scripture. Saint Paul states that “the dead in Christ will rise first,” and that those “who are left ... shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.” Since the dead rise first, the rapture occurs at the time of the Resurrection. And since those who are left do not precede the dead who rise, the rapture cannot occur before the tribulation, nor anytime before the Resurrection.

Saint Paul clearly indicates that he is referring to the Return of Christ: “we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord....” Therefore, the rapture does not occur before the tribulation, nor anytime before the Return of Christ. Certainly and without any doubt, Christ will return twice: first at the end of the Antichrist's reign, and second, many centuries later, for the general Resurrection. Now, to a certain extent, this passage refers to both the first and second Return of Christ. Therefore, the rapture occurs twice: first, at the end of the Antichrist's reign, and second, many centuries later at the time of the general Resurrection.

Christ will return in the year A.D. 2437, at the end of the Antichrist's reign of nearly seven years, which is the last week of years of Daniel's seventy weeks of years. This first Return of Christ soon ushers in a time of deep peace and profound holiness over all the earth, a time called the Millennium of Peace and Holiness. Concerning this time period, the Book of Revelation says:

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6, RSV).

This passage refers to the dead who were killed during the reign of the Antichrist because of their faithfulness to Jesus and to Sacred Scripture (which will be outlawed at that time). But what about those who are still alive, who were persecuted but not killed? Such as these will receive the same benefits as those who died and who are given the gift of the first resurrection. These receive the same benefits of the first resurrection, without dying and rising. They will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. This is the first rapture. It is only for a select few who remain faithful to God during the Antichrist's reign and who survive.

After the first Return of Christ, He punishes the wicked, establishes His kingdom on earth, and then He ascends to Heaven (Second Ascension). Next He sends out the Holy Spirit in the Second Pentecost, which occurs worldwide. After this, there will be a long time of over a thousand years of true peace and holiness over the whole world. Christianity will be the only religion on earth. Those risen from the dead in the first resurrection will not die. Only holy and devout persons will be leaders of the Church and the world.

This passage (Rev 20:4-6) also refers to the time of the general Resurrection, which occurs many centuries after Christ's first Return, and at the end of a long period of peace and holiness on earth. At the general Resurrection, the souls from Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell each rise from the dead and receive resurrected bodies. The faithful from Heaven and Purgatory receive glorious bodies like the glorified bodies of Jesus and Mary. Whereas the wicked from Hell receive horrible bodies befitting the horrific sins from which they never repented. And, at that time, those faithful who are still alive on earth do not die and immediately rise. Instead they receive the benefits of the Resurrection without ever having died. They will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. This is the second rapture. It is for all those very many faithful Christians who will still be alive at the time of the general Resurrection. They, along with the resurrected faithful, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

In summary, the rapture is not an event whereby the faithful are removed from the world before a time of suffering. As Christ suffered, so also must the Church suffer. Truly, there will be a rapture, for Sacred Scripture describes it. But the true meaning of the rapture is a sharing in the Resurrection (the first resurrection and, later, the general Resurrection) for those faithful who are still alive on earth in each of those times.

--Ronald L. Conte Jr.

[wardaddy]

I think the preserving of the corpses of dead folks for permanent display is odd.

Whether it’s Lenin or Saints....

macabre...

I’m not Catholic so maybe I just don’t get it...is this something all Catholics like or is sort of an old world thing...

i do find it very interesting though...this and the skull chapels and whatnot in a way like catacombs and Indian mounds are cool

it’s just I’m not used to it, we generally don’t give the body much thought after death except as worn vessel to be properly discarded

i’m not much on open caskets btw....most especially for dead kids....never seen how folks did that and to take pictures too...

i guess it’s cultural or is there a religious significance to it for you guys?

[bdeaner]

I think the preserving of the corpses of dead folks for permanent display is odd.

If you go back and read the text, it might be clarifying. These individuals are put on display because they do not decay like normal bodies -- not through any natural cause, but presumably by virtue of a miracle. Despite being exposed to air, not having any exposure to any kind of preservatives, often times exposed to moisture or other decaying processes, such as lime, the bodies nevertheless remain preserved, far beyond what could be expected by chance and for hundreds and sometimes thousands of years. So, the bodies are put on display to demonstrate the reality or validity of the miracle.

The point is that these are not mummies nor artificially preserved bodies. Their preservation cannot b explained in that way, or else they would not be counted as "incorruptible."

Otherwise, Catholics are typically buried in the ground or in a mausoleum, just like most others. Although there is some controversy around cremation, for reasons I won't get into.

[bdeaner]

I should note that all the pictures I showed you are of the bodies of Saints who WERE initially buried like normal folks. After a period of time, for purposes of investigating the potential Sainthood of the person, the bodies were disinterred (sp?). In many cases, they were found in rotten caskets in moist ground, for years, and yet their bodies were perfectly preserved and in some cases pleasant smelling, e.g. like perfume or flowers. Sometimes, they are found to be consistently emitting fluids such as blood, that medical doctors say is consistent with living bodily fluids. These are the kinds of extraordinary things that need to happen if the Church is to count something as a miracle — otherwise, they will discount it until it can be demonstrated that other reasonable alternative explanations have been completely ruled out. Some face in a cheese sandwich is silly. Not even remotely in the same league.

[wardaddy]

if these bodies are indeed in this state of preservation all on their own without any help other maybe a peat bog like natural surrounding then it is indeed pretty unusual and certainly more profound than Jesus in a cheeto or the case here where he was found in a cinnamon bun in a Nashville coffee shop/bakery (owned by a lefty Jewish guy btw who may have... done it as a prank)...bun subsequently stolen btw and ransom asked believe it or not

but is it universal church opinion that remarkable preservation of saint’s bodies says something from God or is it simply remarkable as a science?

i’m trying to think of a parallel in the fundamentalist faiths I’m familiar with and gew up in....not that we don’t have eccentricites....but this sort of thing as a miracle ..it would be like Billy Graham when he sadly has to leave doing something remarkable in the aftermath..