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No-Cross Protocol ["New" Mormon tradition]
Mormon Coffee ^ | May 18, 2009 | Sharon Lindbloom

Posted on 06/13/2009 9:38:29 AM PDT by Ottofire

No-Cross Protocol

May 18, 2009

By Sharon Lindbloom

“It’s no accident that Mormon steeples, temples and necks are free of Christian crosses.

“LDS leaders long have said the cross, so ubiquitous among traditional Christians, symbolizes Jesus’ death, while Mormons worship the risen Christ.”

So begins a recent article in the Salt Lake Tribune (Mormons and the cross).

This interesting article by Peggy Fletcher Stack takes a look at the newly completed master’s thesis, “The Development of the LDS Church’s Attitude Toward the Cross,” by Michael Reed. According to the Salt Lake Tribune,

“[The] Mormon aversion to the cross is a relatively recent development in LDS history, prompted in part by anti-Catholic sentiments.

“‘It first started at the grass-roots level around the turn of the 20th century,’ Michael Reed argues…

“‘It later became institutionalized during the 1950s under the direction of LDS Prophet David O. McKay.’”

Mormon scholar Bob Rees explains further,

“At one time there was an informal acceptance of [the cross] as an overt symbol, but in the 20th century its use has been discouraged by church leaders. Wanting to maintain its distinctive identity among Christian churches, the church essentially rejected outward manifestations of the cross, one of the most compelling symbols in all of Christendom…”

Apparently, crosses were at one time somewhat popular among Mormons, the symbol appearing on early LDS buildings, documents, and members (in the form of jewelry). But the LDS Church’s opposition to Catholicism won out in the middle of the 20th century.

Beginning in the 1920s when then-Apostle David O. McKay became frustrated over the lack of success in converting Catholics to Mormonism, and continuing into the 1930s when LDS leaders (including McKay) believed a Catholic Bishop in Utah was trying to convert Mormons, McKay’s vexation with Catholicism finally came to a head with his 1953 identification of the Catholic Church as one of the “two great anti-Christs in the world” (the second being Communism).

According to the Salt Lake Tribune, in 1957, by then the President of the LDS Church, David O. McKay

“established the LDS Church’s no-cross protocol, saying it was not proper for LDS girls to wear it on their jewelry, saying the cross is ‘purely Catholic.’”

Actually, the Cross of Christ is purely biblical, purely Christian.

The Apostle Paul wrote,

“May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” (Galatians 6:14)

Christian pastor John Piper explains,

“Only boast in the cross of Jesus Christ. It is a single idea. A single goal. A single passion. Only boast in the cross. The word can be translated ‘exult in’ or ‘rejoice in.’ Only exult in the cross of Christ. Only rejoice in the cross of Christ. Paul says let this be your single passion, your single boast and joy and exultation. In this great moment called ONE DAY let the ONE THING that you love, the one thing that you cherish, the one thing that you rejoice in and exult over be the cross of Jesus Christ…

“…for redeemed sinners, every good thing — indeed every bad thing that God turns for good — was obtained for us by the cross of Christ. Apart from the death of Christ, sinners get nothing but judgment. Apart from the cross of Christ, there is only condemnation. Therefore everything that you enjoy in Christ — as a Christian, as a person who trusts Christ — is owing to the death of Christ. And all your rejoicing in all things should therefore be a rejoicing in the cross where all your blessings were purchased for you at the cost of the death of the Son of God, Jesus Christ” (Boasting Only in the Cross).

Mormons don’t choose to use the Cross as a religious symbol. Instead they choose sunstones, CTR rings and representations of a heralding angel to symbolize their distinctive faith.

Nevertheless, be it a method of execution, be it jewelry worn by rap stars, be it misused as a flaming sign of racism, the Cross ever remains for Christians our symbol of hope and peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.



TOPICS: History; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: mormon
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Why no crosses? Something I was not aware of...
1 posted on 06/13/2009 9:38:29 AM PDT by Ottofire
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To: Ottofire; Alex Murphy
McKay's vexation with Catholicism finally came to a head with his 1953 identification of the Catholic Church as one of the "two great anti-Christs in the world"

Mormons agreeing with John Calvin ping.

2 posted on 06/13/2009 9:46:30 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Ottofire

How is this different from Protestant views toward the Catholic Crucifix?

As though Catholics don’t believe in the Risen Christ....


3 posted on 06/13/2009 10:09:59 AM PDT by G Larry (ObamaCare = "DYING IN LINE!")
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To: Ottofire

Without the cross, we’re still dead in our sins. I’ll take the cross, thank you.


4 posted on 06/13/2009 10:12:09 AM PDT by bubbacluck
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To: Ottofire

I’m told the spire at the top of Mormon places of worship represents their aspirations to elevate themselves up to the level of their god. Their god was once a human and did the same.


5 posted on 06/13/2009 10:26:20 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Matthew 15:8 - 9)
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To: liege

Amen.


6 posted on 06/13/2009 10:30:16 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: Campion

What was that passage about the foolishness of the cross? /s

Guess St. Paul’s discourse is off limits.


7 posted on 06/13/2009 10:54:06 AM PDT by OpusatFR (Those embryos are little humans in progress. Using them for profit is slavery.)
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To: Ottofire

The Old Rugged Cross

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
The emblem of suffering and shame;
And I love that old cross where the dearest and best
For a world of lost sinners was slain.

Refrain

So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross,
Till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
And exchange it some day for a crown.

O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
Has a wondrous attraction for me;
For the dear Lamb of God left His glory above
To bear it to dark Calvary.

Refrain

In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
A wondrous beauty I see,
For ’twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
To pardon and sanctify me.

Refrain

To the old rugged cross I will ever be true;
Its shame and reproach gladly bear;
Then He’ll call me some day to my home far away,
Where His glory forever I’ll share.

Refrain

Words & Music: George Ben­nard, 1913

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAB41b3gNU0


8 posted on 06/13/2009 11:10:25 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: OpusatFR

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18


9 posted on 06/13/2009 11:11:54 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Great, y’all worship the Cross and I’ll worship God and His only Begotten Son. That should make both of us happy.


10 posted on 06/13/2009 2:43:45 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Blessed be the Peacemaker.)
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To: Old Mountain man

But OMM, you dont believe in the Trinity...


11 posted on 06/13/2009 2:51:00 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Old Mountain man

***Great, y’all worship the Cross and I’ll worship God and His only Begotten Son. That should make both of us happy.***

Happy? I suppose that our divergent paths in which those Christians Judged to salvation get to worship forever in the presence of God versus those who get to become their own gods over their own universes might provide a different type of happiness.


12 posted on 06/13/2009 3:28:46 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Ottofire
Why no crosses? Something I was not aware of...

HANG ON!!

There is probably a lot more that the Mormon Organization® has not informed you about!

13 posted on 06/13/2009 6:09:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ottofire
“It’s no accident that Mormon steeples, temples and necks are free of Christian crosses.


14 posted on 06/13/2009 6:15:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ottofire

We don’t do crosses much in the PCA church, at least not in the ones I’ve gone to. Maybe others do.

I was always creeped out by the churches where they still show Christ on the cross.


15 posted on 06/13/2009 6:26:31 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Tennessee Nana

But I do believe in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Don’t worship crosses though.


16 posted on 06/13/2009 6:32:02 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Blessed be the Peacemaker.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Didn’t you love that 2 hour course you took in Mormonism from your preacher?


17 posted on 06/13/2009 6:33:06 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Blessed be the Peacemaker.)
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To: Old Mountain man; Tennessee Nana; MarkBsnr
Great, y’all worship the Cross and I’ll worship God and His only Begotten Son. That should make both of us happy.

Then why don't you obey Him for once.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mr 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

18 posted on 06/13/2009 6:54:25 PM PDT by Godzilla (TEA: Taxed Enough Already)
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To: Godzilla

And you people think that means nail up a cross on your buildings and wear crosses as jewelry? That seems to be your implication and it is not the implication of the scripture.


19 posted on 06/13/2009 8:01:26 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Blessed be the Peacemaker.)
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To: Old Mountain man
Thank you for showing everyone here that mormons reject the cross and all it stands for. Paul wrote (in that standard work poorly cited by mormons):

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Col 1: 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

We are reminded daily to take up our cross. What do mormons take up? Their cute little CTR rings and tags. And remember, historically, it was mormons who rejected the cross and all it stands for. All things were reconciled by that cross - no need for your filthy (menstrual) (Isa 64:6) rag righteousness of mormon works/ordinances.

20 posted on 06/13/2009 8:12:04 PM PDT by Godzilla (TEA: Taxed Enough Already)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Ottofire

Gee, thanks for uniting in Christ. This thread was a real blessing.


22 posted on 06/13/2009 8:38:26 PM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: Old Mountain man
You really are a nasty piece of work. I think it is obscene that you do not take up the cross as the scripture says but nail it up on your buildings and hide behind it without it having any real meaning to you. You are pitiful and cursed of God.

Gee OMM, must have touched a nerve. Then you must think the same of the Apostle Paul who gloried in the cross (Gal 6:14). Thank you OMM, I stand with Paul (1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.). Displace the cross from its biblical association with Jesus and you mormon are no better than the charlatan selling fake futures to other mormons.

The cross destroys any way of us becoming acceptable on our own merits. Yes, OMM, filthy rags (STRONGS H5708 - `ed), bloody, gory unclean in the fullest sense of the word. That is mormon works.

You call me cursed of God. Here is the real deal OMM. Jesus took away ANY curse from me ON THE CROSS - Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Paul also addresses the issue in regards to mormon laws and ordinances - Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Are you perfect in every point and have cleansed ungodliness from your life (Moroni 10:32), are you completely free from sin (Alma 11:37). Then you need to combine what your bom says with what Paul said in Gal 3:10.

You have no clue how I take up my cross daily (hint-mind reading). I can’t accept Jesus for who He is without the cross. Christianity is cross-centered, as it is central point to why Christ came to earth. Mormonism is man-centered. I prefer to stand with Paul and the bible on this.

Embrace the Cross OMM and find the real Jesus.

23 posted on 06/13/2009 8:55:59 PM PDT by Godzilla (TEA: Taxed Enough Already)
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To: Old Mountain man
FRiend, you are way out of bounds now.
24 posted on 06/13/2009 9:07:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: Old Mountain man
"You are pitiful and cursed of God."

Sometimes I say things and later I regret them. Perhpas that might apply here. Just a thought.

25 posted on 06/13/2009 11:35:30 PM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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To: Elsie
LC. Exactly like your inappropriate attempt to portray Mormons as vampires and blood suckers, Present day Nazi's and Muslims still portray the Jews as blood suckers that eat other peoples children.

Your post is in this company.

Communications similar to yours was a contributor to the culture that directly led to the slaughter of million.

Although the Nazi government was not Christian, the German people as a whole were. Repeated exposure to vile communication like your example desensitized them until they became willing participants in the murder of people different than themselves.

If you would have had Jewish neighbors, and lived in Germany in 1935, what would you have done to them?

What would you do if they come to murder your Mormon neighbors?

Seriously, ask yourself.

From this post it makes me wonder.

26 posted on 06/13/2009 11:49:36 PM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
"Present day Nazi's and some Muslims...

Sorry about leaving the "some" off.

27 posted on 06/13/2009 11:57:22 PM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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To: Old Mountain man
You are pitiful and cursed of God.
 
I guess you do not ascribe to #11!!

 

 

 
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 
 

28 posted on 06/14/2009 4:09:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Old Mountain man
 
Didn’t you love that 2 hour course you took in Mormonism from your preacher?
 
Didn’t you love the fact that YOUR Living Prophet does not need ANY training in ANYTHING???


 
 

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

 

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)


29 posted on 06/14/2009 4:12:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Old Mountain man
That seems to be your implication and it is not the That seems to be your implication and it is not the implication of the scripture.of the scripture.

So??

NONE of the things done in MORMONism's Temple Rites® are found in Scripture.

What are the 'implications' of THAT??

30 posted on 06/14/2009 4:14:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
Sometimes I say things and later I regret them. Perhpas that might apply here. Just a thought.

Yes; I have seen him realize this action before.

I'm hope that a reconsideration may be forth coming.

31 posted on 06/14/2009 4:16:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
"You are pitiful and cursed of God."


KJV
 Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
 
 
 
ANYBODY???
 
Like this fine looking fellow???
 
 


 
1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 
2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

32 posted on 06/14/2009 4:20:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
From this post it makes me wonder.

Quit WONDERING and ask GOD!!

Pray for that heartwarming feeling!

Don't you MORMONism believers do that in things you have no data to analyze?


Blood Atonement and Oaths of Vengeance

In 1842, Joseph Smith received a series of revelations regarding the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. His goal was the establishment of a theocratic kingdom at Nauvoo, Illinois where he would be the King of Israel, and the Council of Fifty would be the governmental structure which would prepare the way for the millennial reign of Christ. As part of the elaboration for this theocratic plan, Smith presented what would come to be known as the doctrine of "Blood Atonement." The concept behind this doctrine was that people who committed particularly grievous acts against the Mormons would have to shed their blood to atone for the sins they had committed. The Mormons, especially the Danites, used the doctrine of blood atonement as justification for the depredations they committed during their war against the Missourians. Orrin Porter Rockwell also used the concept of blood atonement as justification for his assassination attempt on Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs.(52)

When Joseph Smith was killed on June 27, 1844, his assassins created the circumstances for what has become known as the "Oath of Vengeance." A corollary to the doctrine of blood atonement, the oath of vengeance was created on the first anniversary of Smith's death as a formal prayer for God's vengeance upon those who shed the blood of the prophet's. Six months later this oath of vengeance became a part of the Mormon temple endowment ceremony.(53) The specific oath stated the following:

" You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray and never cease to pray and never cease to importune High Heaven to avenge the blood of the prophets on this nation and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children until the third and fourth generation."(54)

This oath of vengeance was used several times in 1845 as justification for killing people who had been involved in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.(55)

When the doctrines of blood atonement and oath of vengeance were dropped as part of church doctrine, fundamentalists saw this as yet another instance of the church caving in to political pressure. They still believe firmly in these doctrines. Kraut remarks that "Today, the doctrine of blood atonement is never taught and rarely mentioned. The idea of capital punishment has almost become eradicated by communists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and liberal educators. The Oath of Vengeance is no longer a part of the temple ceremony."(56)

 



 

(52)D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994), 110-113.

(53)Quinn, 1994, 179.

(54)Kraut, 79.

(55)Quinn, 1994, 180-181.

(56)Kraut, 78-79.


33 posted on 06/14/2009 4:33:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
Sorry about leaving the "some" off.

Oh MY!!!!


 
 
 

 

 

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1] 

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith’s followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith’s own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith’s claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith  & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.


34 posted on 06/14/2009 4:42:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Old Mountain man

***Didn’t you love that 2 hour course you took in Mormonism from your preacher?***

I don’t have a preacher in the same manner that I don’t have magical underwear or seeing stones or golden tablets.

The LDS stand convicted from their own words, their own publications and their own pronouncements. Do you guys really think that you could suborn the Catholic establishment merely by adding to the Bible with the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith pulled from his hat? And the Doctrines and Covenants?

Do you believe that you will become a god over your own universe? At least answer me that. Truthfully, this time.


35 posted on 06/14/2009 6:17:38 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Elsie

***NONE of the things done in MORMONism’s Temple Rites® are found in Scripture.***

To my eternal shame, I was made a 32nd degree Mason in the Scottish Rite. I have read through the LDS Temple rites published on the web and found that they agree 9 points out of 10 with the Masonic rites.

Joseph Smith was a fraud and a con man. Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery, who wrote most of the BOM, could definitely attest to that.


36 posted on 06/14/2009 6:21:47 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: huldah1776

huldah1776,

Unity in Christ is something that IS important. However which Christ are you seeking unity with? You better be looking to the true Christ, the one that died for your sins once for all, and who is God, and is to be the Lord of your life. Does the Mormon Church have the true Christ? Is Christ the spirit brother of Lucifer? Does the cross only pay for some sins, the others you must work to have washed clean (some sins by your own filthy blood?)

Mormons are nice hard-working family-oriented people. And if you want to show the love of Christ to them, you must be willing to share the true Gospel even if it annoys them. For otherwise they face unending torment in the end. If not, you are just willing to let them follow their false gospel and false teachers into hell, and that is not showing any love at all.

Do not fall prey to those that say “We worship the same Christ” without testing their doctrines. By this standard the Watchtower Bible Tract people are also brothers in Christ, something at least old-time Mormons would vehemently deny.

Cling to the only and true God and read the word that He graciously inspired for us to guide us. Anything that strays is false, and you must jealously avoid that which is not His.

Mark 13
21”And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him; 22for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23”But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.

2 Peter 2
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Deuteronomy 13
1”If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.4”You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.


37 posted on 06/14/2009 6:57:09 AM PDT by Ottofire (Philippians 1:21: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.)
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To: Elsie

38 posted on 06/14/2009 7:35:38 AM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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To: Elsie

Do you believe you are cursed of God like you belive Mormons are?


39 posted on 06/14/2009 7:36:48 AM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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To: Elsie

I was not asking about your opinion of JS.

I was asking about you.

You do realize that when you don’t post Mormon sources and it is just your own opinion you have tendencies that led to slaughter?


40 posted on 06/14/2009 7:39:24 AM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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To: Ottofire

Your response to me was very loving. Others were not so. I saw another religion thread which warned about dissent. Any open thread should have that included.

Ephesians 4:14-16 (New American Standard Bible)

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


41 posted on 06/14/2009 7:43:11 AM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: Ottofire

Here it is. It is the first post included in the next thread right after this one under religion. :)

Open threads are a town square. Antagonism though not encouraged, should be expected

Posters may argue for or against beliefs of any kind. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule.

On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”

When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”

Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.

Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/

Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.


42 posted on 06/14/2009 7:45:58 AM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: MHGinTN

I really get tired of personal attacks from some flack that thinks he is “saved”.


44 posted on 06/14/2009 11:19:26 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Blessed be the Peacemaker.)
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To: Old Mountain man

Leave the thread.


45 posted on 06/14/2009 11:21:14 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Ottofire
Photobucket
46 posted on 06/14/2009 6:06:33 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (All the boxes are gone: soapbox, ballot box, jury box, bullet box. History of the future with Obama.)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
Do you believe you are cursed of God like you belive Mormons are?

MORMONs are not cursed: they are DECEIVED.

JS is CURSED!

47 posted on 06/14/2009 7:46:43 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GreyMountainReagan
You do realize that when you don’t post Mormon sources and it is just your own opinion you have tendencies that led to slaughter?

I DO??

Please; point some out for me!

48 posted on 06/14/2009 7:47:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Old Mountain man

Old Mountain man;
Leave the thread.

OUCH!


49 posted on 06/14/2009 7:49:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I did.


50 posted on 06/14/2009 8:14:12 PM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
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