The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[boatbums]

Well see post 150. I answered one of your questions. I also posted about Messainic prophesies. You don’t have to go to the back of the bus or the corner. It just seemed we were heading way off topic which happens.

I hope your feelings aren’t hurt, because it sure wasn’t my intention.

[Marysecretary]

That’s right, Jmouse. Thanks.

[Marysecretary]

And how many works are enough if folks need them to get into heaven? Faith is the way in. Works that God planned for us from the beginning are the works that He wants us to do. Living a godly life is the ultimate work...

[ET(end tyranny)]

I think in 159 that you commented on one of my comments at the end which wasn't a question.

Here is the question.

If indeed Jesus came as the final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world, why do The Holy Scriptures proclaim that the Third Temple will be built and sacrifices resumed during the Messianic era?

[boatbums]

Re: post 174.

I don’t mind a little personal sharing. I gave the example using ‘a person’ term, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t think it applied to me as well, wouldn’t I? I would hope that in the forty years I have been saved I have grown in my faith and that others see Christ in me. That is certainly something I aim for. Do I ever mess up? Of course, I am a human after all. Like Paul, the flesh and spirit natures are in a wrestling match. Have I gotten wiser over time, has God deepened my faith by trials? Oh, yes, absolutely. I went through times in my youth where I did things I am not proud of, that cause me shame and that I will always regret. I never stopped believing, though. I never denied the Lord Jesus. But just like the prodigal son’s father, the Lord taught me that He never stopped loving me, never stopped waiting for me to return, never withheld His forgiveness and I never stopped being his child.

Do I still mess up? Yeah, but not like before. And I hope from what He taught me by allowing me to go through those trials I will not fall into the same traps again. When I sin, I know I can go directly to him at any time, and ask his forgiveness.

Did this help?

[boatbums]

Can you give me a verse or two about what you are asking?

I know that another physical temple will exist because THE anti-christ will go in and sit down to declare that he is God. In the New Jerusalem, there is also a temple mentioned and a temple in heaven but they are symbolic of the place of the throne of God. The seven angels with the seven plagues that are to be poured out upon the earth during the last half of the tribulation proceed out of the temple to deliver the vials of God’s wrath upon the earth.

At the end of the book of Revelation, John saw that there was no more temple because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are now the temple, Rev. 21:22

[Nosterrex]

That person would not be a Christian. The entire life of a Christian is one of repentance. That person is lost. I can train a parrot to say that Jesus is Lord. This has nothing to do with the doctrine of purgatory. You are either in Christ or not. There is no third option.

[bdeaner]

I don’t mind a little personal sharing. I gave the example using ‘a person’ term, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t think it applied to me as well, wouldn’t I?

Well, certainly -- although I did not mean to suggest or imply you are a hypocrite. I took your statement to imply that, just as another person's good works is a testimony of his or her faith, so your good works are a testimony of your faith. But when you frame it that way, even your good works are understood from the perspective of the other person -- as a testimony or as evidence of faith.

So, as a follow up question, I was asking about sanctification from a different perspective -- a first-person, "me" perspective -- regarding how sanctifying grace operating in one's life is also evidence that one's faith is true. If I find myself acting in ways that are Christ-like -- by the grace of God -- it is a testimony that my own faith is true. Right?

And a byproduct of that righteousness of good works through the grace of God, which follows upon my genuine faith, is a genuine, enduring and unshakeable joy. I think that's our taste of heaven in this life -- just a taste -- a mere shadow of the beatific vision.

I went through times in my youth where I did things I am not proud of, that cause me shame and that I will always regret. I never stopped believing, though. I never denied the Lord Jesus. But just like the prodigal son’s father, the Lord taught me that He never stopped loving me, never stopped waiting for me to return, never withheld His forgiveness and I never stopped being his child.

I can certainly relate to your story! What I find particularly interesting is the shame and regret you describe. Most truly evil people I know -- people who do not know God and have rejected the Lord as their savior -- do not feel regret or shame over sin. But those of us who are saved -- who are justified by our faith -- are called through grace to perform good works, which testify to our faith.

Yet, looking at my own life, I can often find myself like Peter who doubted Christ and began to sink into the waves after walking upon the water, When my faith falters, I can give in to temptation -- and I can become claimed instead by sin, because Satan is real and He wants us to fall so that He can claim us. However, when I do fall into temptation, because I am saved by Christ, the Lord gives me the grace to suffer as a consequence of the sin. I suffer the guilt and regret of having transgressed the will of Abba, who is the source of all that is Good and Worthy. And in fact, it is through that suffering that I often find myself on my knees, returning to an even deeper faith, having learned once again that I cannot do it on my own, but can only be sanctified by His blood, through His grace operating in my life.

What I just described is "Purgatory." I am saved; I am justified by my faith in Christ, and yet I am capable, as a result of temptation, of falling into sin. But, as someone who has faith, my sin has consequences -- the 'fire' that is the anguish of guilt and shame. This suffering is beneficent -- it is essentially a gift from the Lord that assists me in the process of growing closer to Him and aoviding further temptation by the Devil. It helps me to become more like Him, so that I can serve Him as a member of His Body, doing His will, and to the extent that I fulfill this testimony of my faith, I experience a heavenly joy -- the joy of obedience to His will.

The Catholic Church is neutral with regard to whether purgatory is a state or place. I'm inclined to believe it it primarily a state of mind, similar to what I have described: the fire of purification that the Lord uses to teach us the practical wisdom of learning good from evil, through the joy that comes from goodness and the anguish that follows participation in evil.

Hell, on the other hand, is a total loss of hope in redemption -- something that, as long as we are alive, is difficult to fathom, but horrible to contemplate.

How does this fit with your own walk with Christ? Similar, different? How?

[bdeaner]

That person would not be a Christian. The entire life of a Christian is one of repentance. That person is lost. I can train a parrot to say that Jesus is Lord. This has nothing to do with the doctrine of purgatory. You are either in Christ or not. There is no third option.

Please see post #188 and see if my description fits your own experience of walking with Christ. Is my experience different than yours? If so, how? Let's try not to get too bogged down in words like "Purgatory" and see if we can describe salvation operating in our lives. I suspect there is more common ground than we realize -- since after all we are following the same Lord. My understanding of "purgatory" is not necessarily a place somewhere, but a process or state through which we are cleansed of sin -- in this life and possibly the afterlife. It is first and foremost a mental anguish that results from having sinned -- a regret for having offended our beloved Lord. Think of it like those ribbed thunder strips on the shoulder of a highway -- states of mind, like the thunder strips, that tell us, through the grace of our Lord, when we are getting off track and that help to keep us on the road. I have a sense that you probably have this common experience, but just would not use the word "purgatory" to name it. Yes? Or if not, perhaps you can explain. Look forward to your clarification.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I think what you wrote is spot on. As a former Catholic I had wondered about the confessional. Why have it? We can go directly to YHWH with our confession, our repentence and our prayers for forgiveness.

Then it occurred to me that at times our anguish and shame and guilt can be so strong that people may need the verbal reassurance that their sin is forgiven, because they may have a difficult time forgiving themselves of their transgression.

How do you view the confessional vs going directly to YHWH?

[ET(end tyranny)]

Something I meant to ask before.

Do you think 'glow' or 'radiance' that Moses had after being in the presence of YHWH may have been attributed to a 'cleansing'?

[annalex]

no time does it suggest that the believer is punished or put to fire to cleanse him from any remaining sin and prepare him for Heaven

Purgatory is about purification, not punishment, so indeed the passage does not suggest that. However, man is likened to a building built of both noble and base material, and the base material burns off; the building is then freed of "the stubble", so in the analogy that St. Paul is giving us, the man who is the building is cleansed. The building materials are analogized to man's work, and some work is sinful. So that is sin that is burned off as stubble. Finally, the man is saved in the end of that process, so it does prepare him for heaven.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Found some more that might interest you.

A Mishnah passage says, “This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall.” The tractate Moed Katan teaches, “This world is only like a hotel. The world to come is like a home.” Yet it is also emphasized that this world provides the ability and privilege of doing good works and performing the mitzvot:

There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]... [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]

Maimonides:
In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies — like the ministering angels... The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8)

Gehinnom is the postmortem destination of unrighteous Jews and Gentiles. In one reference, the souls in Gehinnom are punished for up to 12 months. After the appropriate period of purification, the righteous continue on to Gan Eden (Rabbi Akiba and Babylonian Talmud, tractate Eduyot 2:10). The wicked endure the full year of punishment then are either annihilated (”After 12 months, their body is consumed and their soul is burned and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous (Rosh Hashanah 17a)”) or continue to be punished.

This belief is the basis for the Jewish practice of mourning and asking blessings on deceased loved ones for only 11 months (one would not wish to imply that the departed needed the full 12 months of purification).

[bdeaner]

How do you view the confessional vs going directly to YHWH?

I agree with orthodox Catholic teaching, which holds that direct contrition to the Lord, if pure, is sufficient for forgiveness. Yet, as you have noted, there is a very special grace that comes with participation in the sacrament of confession. Regular Confession, at least once per year, especially during Lent, is an obligation in the Church.

I was a fundamentalist Christian before I converted to Catholicism, and, speaking purely from personal experience, the sacrament of confession truly has been a blessing in my life. Talking to God in private and asking for forgiveness is all well and good, but it simply does not compare with speaking anonymously to another person, but knowing that the Lord hears you and in persona Christi is expressing His forgiveness directly to you through the voice of the priest. I am often moved to tears; and not always, but often feel a warmth generated throughout my body -- a feeling fundamentalists will be familiar with if they have ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else quite like it. And there is also a sense of certainty that I have been forgiven--and a sense of purity and a freedom from temptation--that results from regular Confession that I had never known before.

I practicaly had to be dragged kicking and screaming into my first Confession, because it was a concept I had been very opposed to as an anti-Catholic fundamentalist. But now I am a true believer. It really is something 'out of this world.' I try to go about once a month, and now might try going even more frequently, because I just benefit so much from it -- especially with the freedom it gives me from further temptations. There is a strength of will that comes from the process that is difficult to describe, because it is not human -- it is a supernatural grace operating in the process -- a real treasure.

[bdeaner]

How do you view the confessional vs going directly to YHWH?

I agree with orthodox Catholic teaching, which holds that direct contrition to the Lord, if pure, is sufficient for forgiveness. Yet, as you have noted, there is a very special grace that comes with participation in the sacrament of confession. Regular Confession, at least once per year, especially during Lent, is an obligation in the Church.

I was a fundamentalist Christian before I converted to Catholicism, and, speaking purely from personal experience, the sacrament of confession truly has been a blessing in my life. Talking to God in private and asking for forgiveness is all well and good, but it simply does not compare with speaking anonymously to another person, but knowing that the Lord hears you and in persona Christi is expressing His forgiveness directly to you through the voice of the priest. I am often moved to tears; and not always, but often feel a warmth generated throughout my body -- a feeling fundamentalists will be familiar with if they have ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else quite like it. And there is also a sense of certainty that I have been forgiven--and a sense of purity and a freedom from temptation--that results from regular Confession that I had never known before.

I practicaly had to be dragged kicking and screaming into my first Confession, because it was a concept I had been very opposed to as an anti-Catholic fundamentalist. But now I am a true believer. It really is something 'out of this world.' I try to go about once a month, and now might try going even more frequently, because I just benefit so much from it -- especially with the freedom it gives me from further temptations. There is a strength of will that comes from the process that is difficult to describe, because it is not human -- it is a supernatural grace operating in the process -- a real treasure.

[bdeaner]

Do you think 'glow' or 'radiance' that Moses had after being in the presence of YHWH may have been attributed to a 'cleansing'?

Interesting! Never thought about it before, but it makes sense.

[boatbums]

Your words pretty much match what I said. Your original post on Purgatory, though, does not claim it is only a state of mind in this present life on earth. I don't think anyone would have heartburn if this was truly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, but it isn't really.

The main reason so many non-RCC people object to the teaching is because it implies we must suffer for our sins after we die and that faith in Christ's sacrifice on the cross, as the complete payment for sin, is not enough.

If you truly believe: But those of us who are saved -- who are justified by our faith -- are called through grace to perform good works, which testify to our faith. I rejoice because you really get do it.

[bdeaner]

A Mishnah passage says, “This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall.” The tractate Moed Katan teaches, “This world is only like a hotel. The world to come is like a home.” Yet it is also emphasized that this world provides the ability and privilege of doing good works and performing the mitzvot:

Great stuff. I am immediately reminded of Christ's parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22.

The reference to the three groups judgement day in the second quote also matches the wedding banquet parable -- there are those who reject the invitation, those called but who are improperly dressed (one assumes they could change), and those who are called and remain at the banquet.

[boatbums]

Make that “really do get it”.

[annalex]

Paul spoke of fire that would destroy men's work. However, in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it is the work of the church planters/leaders that will be tested by fire, not the church planters/leaders themselves.

How do we know that? The passage speaks repeatedly of "every man", and it likens the man, not the church he plants, to a building which is then purified.

The rest of your post advances a theory that all the elect, regardless of their works in lifetime are purified solely through the merits of Christ and therefore do not need purgation. But that confuses the forgiveness of sin, already obtained by the souls in Purgatory through the grace of Christ, and participation in the suffering of Christ through our own suffering, clearly taught in Col. 1:24, which is consonant with 1 Cor 3:9-15, as already noted.

The error here is perhaps, the fundamental misunderstanding of sanctification that Luther advanced. In his view, the elect are not ever purified, but rather they remain dirty; the grace merely covers their sin. This, of course is counter to scripture, that teaches that we are to become perfect (Mt 5:48), and teaches that only the pure enter heaven (Apoc. 21:27). The same apostolic teaching is the premise of 1 Cor. 3:9-15).

That "there is not a one-to-one relationship between our confession/repentance and our forgiveness" seems to be another hypothesis that the author likes without offering any scriptural support for it.