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Vanity - Does Anyone Know of the Moravian Church?
August 11, 2009 | me

Posted on 08/11/2009 6:54:49 AM PDT by Wife of D

Good morning!

My Son-In-Law called me last night and told me a neat story about (him) losing his work ID ( a fireable offense), praying for the first time in 2 years because of that, seeing a brief glimpse of something about the Moravian church, then finding his badge. Of course there's more to it but I'm sparing you. :)

He also reported feeling completely re-energized and touched by the Hand of God -this would be a GREAT time for an 'AMEN!"- and "on fire and alive" despite having a rough weekend almost no sleep.

Anyway, he asked about the Moravian church. I have no prior knowledge of it but discovered it descended from Eastern Orthodox tradition?

If anyone has any information they would like to share I would appreciate the help. Post or email me. I'm looking for personal experience, good or bad, and real facts about what the church believes and teaches.

Thank you Freeper Friends, for any help you can give.

And thank you, Lord, especially, for opening the heart of Michael, who now seems to be on the path to seeking You. !!!Amen!!!!


TOPICS: Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: church; moravian; orthodox
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 08/11/2009 6:54:49 AM PDT by Wife of D
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To: Wife of D

They are common where I grew up near Winston Salem. I dated one in college. Fairly mainstream.


2 posted on 08/11/2009 6:58:30 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Wife of D
If anyone has any information they would like to share I would appreciate the help.

They make good cookies

3 posted on 08/11/2009 6:59:12 AM PDT by fso301
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To: Wife of D

Check this out:

http://www.moravian.org/

I think the Moravians are a pacifist sect similar to the Quakers.

As such, I wouldn’t recommend them - we have enough Quakers and Methodists out there who don’t support America in any war effort.


4 posted on 08/11/2009 6:59:52 AM PDT by ZULU (God guts and guns made America great. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: Wife of D

Dim memory here, but as I recall, the Moravians were the people who really convicted John Wesley by their example of Christian living while on the boat to (or from) America. Much of Wesleyan doctrine is influenced by his dealings with the Moravian church. There’s a biography by Pollock of John Wesley that describes the encounter.

As to the Moravian church of today, all I can say is they don’t have much of a presence here in South Texas.

Colonel, USAFR


5 posted on 08/11/2009 6:59:59 AM PDT by jagusafr (Kill the red lizard, Lord! - nod to C.S. Lewis)
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To: Wife of D

The Moravian Church in America: http://www.moravian.org/

I was never a Moravian but was involved for many years musically in the Moravian Trombone Choir in Downey, CA. Using trombones for their music instead of an organ is a centuries-old tradition.

It was a fine, modest Christian Church and I have deep respect for it and the people in it.


6 posted on 08/11/2009 7:00:33 AM PDT by paulycy (Screw the RACErs.)
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To: Wife of D

Moravians are a Protestant group closely related to Lutheranism and presbyterianism in structure. They were strongly mission minded. John Wesley on his way back to England after his rather failed attempt at evangelizing the U.S. heard them singing shipboard and got to know them.

Wesley and Methodism was strongly influenced by the Moravians.

“Composed of approximately 360,000 members, the Moravian Church has played a major role in the development of Protestant worship, evangelism, missions, and theology in the last three centuries.”

http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/zinz.htm


7 posted on 08/11/2009 7:00:46 AM PDT by madison10
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To: fso301

They make good ‘friendship bread’, too!

http://www.moravian.org/


8 posted on 08/11/2009 7:01:05 AM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (Obama. Clear and Pres__ent Danger.)
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To: ZULU

“we have enough Quakers and Methodists out there who don’t support America in any war effort.”

Hey, now...I’m a Methodist (but I have to agree with you about the UMC’s national leadership)

Colonel, USAFR


9 posted on 08/11/2009 7:02:16 AM PDT by jagusafr (Kill the red lizard, Lord! - nod to C.S. Lewis)
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To: Wife of D

I believe it’s in Moravia.


10 posted on 08/11/2009 7:03:48 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Wife of D

Yes, they are very active around Winston-Salem, NC and in parts of Penn. I’m not Moravian, but I grew up near W-S and always thought they were pretty neat. They used to be pacifists and when the Confederacy asked the old town of Salem for soldiers, Salem sent them a band. They became Lee’s official band and stuck with him to the end.

One thing I alwats liked is that on Easter morning they hold “sunrise services” in cemetarys and then proceed to clean all the tombstones.


11 posted on 08/11/2009 7:05:25 AM PDT by JoeDetweiler
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To: Wife of D

I once visitied Bethel, Alaska on a business trip (!?!).

While there I walked around and discovered a Moravian seminary there.

You just never know what you’ll find in Alaska.


12 posted on 08/11/2009 7:08:42 AM PDT by 43north (11.04.08: the day America committed voluntary suicide)
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To: Wife of D

A Protestant church originating in Moravia and Bohemia.

http://www.moravian.org/


13 posted on 08/11/2009 7:09:36 AM PDT by Nakota
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To: Wife of D

Thank you all for the replies! In a quick search I came up with a very different idea of the history.

Will do more research and share all of these replies and whatever else I find with my son-in-law.

Thank you all very kindly.


14 posted on 08/11/2009 7:12:15 AM PDT by Wife of D
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To: fso301

That’s the first thing that came to my mind too. Really good cookies!!!


15 posted on 08/11/2009 7:13:19 AM PDT by dawn53
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To: jagusafr
I WAS a Methodist but dropped out after learning of their pacifist beliefs. I think the Methodist Church went bad when they merged in the 1950’s with the “United Brethren”, hence the “United” in the United Methodist Church.

I understand there ARE independent Methodist Churches which have no real connection with the UMC, a pacifist, and, in my opinion, subversively run organization.

Not everyone who is a member of the UMC is a pacifist or subversive, but I would most definitely say their leadership is, and I think a LOT of mainstream Protestant Churches have moved in that direction, at least from the perspective of their leadership.

I consider myself a generic Christian and have pretty much had it with the pacifists and liberal political activists in too many of our churches and I think the membership roles reflect that a lot of Americans think like me.

As for Quakers, I have no use whatsoever for them. The Founding Fathers should have kicked them all out along with their buddies, the Tories. Then we wouldn't have to deal with them undermining our military efforts with their nonsense and treason.

16 posted on 08/11/2009 7:21:34 AM PDT by ZULU (God guts and guns made America great. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: Wife of D

If I am not mistaken, they are at least partially responsible for the John Wesley finding God. If I remember correctly, John Wesley was returning from a disasterous missionary mission to the Indians of North America, and the ship he was on ran into rough seas, so much, that he feared for his life and discovered himself to be afraid to die thereby questioning his own spiritual condition before God. Moravians were on board and he noticed how calm they were in the midst of the storm. They counseled him on the salvation of his soul, basically the doctrine of salvation by faith in Christ’s death and resurrection, and as Wesley wrote in his journal, this was the beginning of his salvation experience. Soon after that experience, he was “Born Again” and from this experience the Revivals in England and America were born and swept through both countries. Of course there were others involved in these revivals, but John Wesley, and the gospel he preached, could arguably be considered one of the primary causes of those Revivals.


17 posted on 08/11/2009 7:34:56 AM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: Wife of D
Don't know a whole lot about the Moravians, other that bits of their early history. Count Zinzendorf and all that. Not derived from Eastern Orthodoxy any more than anyone else in the western church is.

Your son-in-law needs a different job. Loosing his badge gets him canned. < Sheesh!>

18 posted on 08/11/2009 9:12:11 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("Dispensationalists say the darndest things!")
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To: Wife of D

There’s one in Charlotte. They are pacificist - it’s called “Peace Moravian Church” - and they have a youth band program that I’ve seen advertised through the homeschool email lists.


19 posted on 08/11/2009 3:43:17 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Good intentions mean nothing. Incentives and constraints mean everything.)
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To: Tax-chick

Didn’t they recently approve gay marriage?


20 posted on 08/11/2009 3:50:53 PM PDT by kalee (01/20/13 The end of an error.... Obama even worse than Carter.)
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To: kalee

I think that was the Mennonites. I saw the article here.


21 posted on 08/11/2009 3:52:05 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Good intentions mean nothing. Incentives and constraints mean everything.)
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To: Tax-chick

The Mennonites??? Really?


22 posted on 08/11/2009 4:06:58 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

I’m not finding the article now. It could be a local branch that approved some sort of recognition of same-sex relationships ... or I could be totally confused.


23 posted on 08/11/2009 4:10:24 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Good intentions mean nothing. Incentives and constraints mean everything.)
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To: Tax-chick

http://moravians.org/Ward_letter.html
http://www.geocities.com/sanctuary_home/whysanctuary.html

It appears they are suffering from the same inner factional infighting over the subject that other mainline churches are suffering and that they are exploring intercommunion with the Episcopal Church


24 posted on 08/11/2009 4:19:13 PM PDT by kalee (01/20/13 The end of an error.... Obama even worse than Carter.)
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To: Tax-chick
I’m not finding the article now. It could be a local branch that approved some sort of recognition of same-sex relationships ... or I could be totally confused.

You might be thinking of this article....Mennonites in Ohio protest exclusion of gays

25 posted on 08/11/2009 4:25:32 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: ZULU

Years ago when teaching in the Frederick,Maryland community college in the evenings I had many of them as students and found them terrific people. They individually believe in pacifism but serve in the armed forces in medic and other non-arms firing roles. The young were quite regular in their participation in sports and other activities. They sensibly saw alcohol use as not different from illegal drug use. I was teaching sociology courses and they were very interested and attentive students. The older women wore, many of them, little hair caps and their clothing tended to be plain but not strikingly out of context of the clothes others wore. They were good farmers and mechanics and the other occupations of the area.

I haven’t had as close an association with very many of them since but there are a good many of them around Maryland. They have taken over a church in what used to be a very small town that was built by my grandfather as an Old School Baptist church years and years ago and keep it up well. I would be surprised if they were connected with the Orthodox but will defer to those who know more about them.


26 posted on 08/11/2009 4:31:03 PM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
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To: Alex Murphy

Could be. It’s hard to google the information because there are so many different terms covering various levels of religious recognition of homosexual couples.


27 posted on 08/11/2009 4:33:18 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Good intentions mean nothing. Incentives and constraints mean everything.)
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To: Wife of D

Hussites or Herrnhuter Brethren. Check out the Moravian Church on Wikipedia. They were an early Protestant sect that grew up in Czech areas that had Orthodox roots. There was some resentment against Catholicism that led them to reject Rome a century before Luther.


28 posted on 08/11/2009 4:41:01 PM PDT by x
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To: Wife of D
I Believe they were the first Protestant Church or at least one of them before Luther. Were hunted by the Catholics, hid out in some mountains to escape them. That is all I remember who knows if I got it right.
29 posted on 08/11/2009 4:57:06 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: x

Neither the Moravians, nor the Hussites nor Herrnhuter had Orthodox roots. That is a relatively recent revisionist idea put forward by some Orthodox - especially the Czech Orthodox Church which is deperately trying to create a history since it practically lacks one.

Jerome of Prague is often held up as if he were a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy - yet his “conversion” went unnoted by everyone in his day including by Jerome himself. Not even his enemies, such as John-Jerome of Prague, ever mentioned it.


30 posted on 08/11/2009 6:48:11 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Wife of D; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

31 posted on 08/11/2009 6:48:51 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: AppyPappy
I am from NC and I am only familiar with there Christmas “love feast”.
32 posted on 08/11/2009 7:26:13 PM PDT by Perdogg (Sarah Palin-Jim DeMint 2012 - Liz Cheney for Sec of State - Duncan Hunter SecDef)
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To: Wife of D; ZULU
I'm a recent Presbyterian seminary graduate, and one of my favorite early histories is that of the Moravian Church.

I've actually been to their most important historic center, a place called Herrnhut, Germany in the far east, very close to the Czech border.

The Moravian denomination descends from the pre-Protestant Christians from Moravia and Bohemia--the 2 historic kingdoms which make up the modern Czech Republic.

About 100 years BEFORE Martin Luther, in the early 1400s in Prague, (about 200 miles or so from Luther's part of Germany) Bohemia, a monk named John Hus, saw a lot of corruption within the Roman Catholic church and strongly preached against it. Like all of Europe to the West, Bohemia and Moravia were firmly Catholic at the time--but had first been evangelized centuries earlier by eastern Orthodox...they really are on the border of eastern Europe.

Hus was protected by King Wenceslaus (yes, the one of Christmas Carol fame) and Hus had some of his thinking influenced by the English followers of John Wycliffe (as there was a royal connection by marriage at that time between Bohemia with England) whom the Roman Catholic Church had declared a heretic. Hus was called to a hearing by the Roman Catholic Church in Germany, and King Wenceslaus got a guarantee of "safe passage" for Hus so he journeyed over to the beautiful lake city of Constance.

Upon reaching Constance, Hus was immediately thrown into a dungeon, and was later tried and then burned at the stake. Guarantees to heretics were not seen as binding...claimed the Church.

Prague and Bohemia reacted an uproar, as John Hus was a popular hero--who had fought a lot of the corruptions of the rich and powerful...(in the richest and most powerful institution of the day, the RC Church). Long story short, a series of wars began, with 3 or 4 Czech groups, against orthodox Roman Catholic groups...and eventually the Roman Catholic forces won...and Czech Protestantism was forcibly crushed. Roman Catholicism was the official religion, and, as in all Europe at the time, other forms of Christianity were simply not allowed (under pain of, the stake...).

Fast forward to the 1700s. The Lutheran Protestant Reformation of the 1500s had not been permitted in Bohemia and Moravia--they were still officially Roman Catholic (while bordering the Lutheran states of Germany). However, some of the proto-Protestant Hussites still existed...secretly...throughout the countryside--even after 300 years of persecution.

A German count, who owned a large estate next to the Czech border, had become a very devout Lutheran--and had gone to seminary and became ordained a Lutheran minister. He was visited by a Hussite, who told him of the Czech bretherens' plight--just across the border. The Count, Rev. Ludwig von Zinzendorf, opened his estate up to these Czech religious refugees--and many streamed over, happy to live in peace according to their conscience.

Things did not go so well in Herrnhut (the new town on the estate)as the new immigrants, now that they were free... started to squabble and fight each other... so Count Zinzendorf put his foot down, and demanded that they meet together and pray...and agree to start living like New Testament Christians.

The Moravians (as they were now called) did start living out their faith...in a spectacular way--rarely seen since say AD 50. Many Germans now were attracted to come to this community of devout Christians. For the first time amidst Protestants and interest in foreign missions formed...and the hard working Moravians--supporting their own missionaries by home-grown industry in Herrnhut--sent out 2 of their number for every 1 that stayed home....

To this day, there are Churches in the South Pacific, or the Aleutian islands, or other way out of the way places, founded in the 1750s by the Moravians. They also re-instituted the New Testament practice of a "love feast" (think an elaborate pot-luck supper!), and had a 100 year 24/7 prayer chain (no I'm not kidding) ...(throughout their period of fantastic missions....). Many came as missionaries to America--and a few were missionaries to American Indians (while certain other Americans were killing them off...). Christmas also had particular significance to Moravians...hence the founding of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

I'm not certain the Moravians were ever completely officially pacifistic...however as someone indicated above, at some point they became so. However, they have no connection historically to the Mennonites or the Quakers, and they are not "Anabaptists" the name for early radical Protestants--as their theology has more in common with Lutheranism (and hence classic Protestantism). Probably the reason they would not participate in certain wars, is that they have always formed such independent, self sufficient communities...they never had a dog in the fight--hence just didn't fight. I believe today the Moravians are no longer officially or unofficially Pacifistic.

They are, as a denomination, much like most other mainline denominations...with all the same conflicts and problems with liberal theology....and I'm not sure I'd recommend Moravians as really special today.

However the early history of the Moravians is one of the most bright and shinning stars of all of Christian history.

A classic "Moravian Star"...a geometric form developed by a Moravian math teacher in the 1800s--and now one of the most popular symbols of Christmas all over the world.

33 posted on 08/11/2009 7:58:37 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: vladimir998

The connection to Eastern Orthodoxy—of which you are correct, there is nothing at all direct—is that centuries before Hus, in the 9th C., Bohemia and Moravia had been evangelized by Orthodox missionaries (Sts. Cyril and Methodius) ...then subsequently when these kingdoms became part of the Germanic Holy Roman Empire, Roman Catholicism was adopted.

Personally I believe the further east you go in Europe (starting with Czech) the more amenable historic attitudes are toward the acceptance of mystery present in Eastern Orthodoxy. I once met a Bulgarian Roman Catholic—eastern rite—and he had quite different attitudes toward certain religious ideas than his western Roman Catholic brethren.

Interestingly, even Luther, and Lutheranism, is more friendly to mystery, than say Calvinism and other more western Protestant traditions. There’s something about that part of the world I guess...


34 posted on 08/11/2009 8:20:53 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns
I'm a recent Presbyterian seminary graduate
In the first round, Geoff Parsons and Rick Benson, of Westminster and Calvin seminaries respectively, went first, as scouts had predicted they would. Parsons heads to a struggling mid-sized Methodist church in Memphis, Tenn., which had the top pick this year. Benson was drafted by a mega-church in Casper, Wyo., which had traded two mid-career pastors for a higher pick. Both draftees say they are ready to "help their teams."

From the thread Calvin grads dominate 2006 pastors draft


35 posted on 08/11/2009 8:31:01 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: Alex Murphy

Too funny. Good thing I have no interest in spectator sports....


36 posted on 08/11/2009 8:46:59 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Wife of D
Here's the official German website for the town of Herrnhut, birthplace for modern Moravianism. http://www.herrnhut.de/. Being in far to the east in the former communist East Germany, the central parts of Herrnhut were almost burned down by Soviet troops at the end of WWII. However, except for one or two buildings, they were saved.

Herrnhut is a very beautiful peaceful place. I spent a Sunday afternoon there in '06 and even in the rain--it was--well, I have to say, somehow holy.

Particularly "God's Acre" (the cemetery there) where all the early Moravians (except the many who died on the mission field), are buried is a place of real expectation and hope--for I know these people were watchful for the 2nd Coming of Jesus--and the resurrection of the body... (long before the JW's, a watchtower was a Moravian symbol).


37 posted on 08/11/2009 9:03:53 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Wife of D; ZULU

One correction, the King Wenceslaus of Jan (John) Hus’ day was Wenceslaus IV, a descendant of the good king of Christmas Carol fame....

“Hus” by the way is an old German word for “goose” and his death by burning is where we get the phrase, “his goose was cooked!”


38 posted on 08/11/2009 9:16:21 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

You wrote:

“The connection to Eastern Orthodoxy...—is that centuries before Hus, in the 9th C., Bohemia and Moravia had been evangelized by Orthodox missionaries (Sts. Cyril and Methodius)...”

I was referring to the ahistorical revisionist idea that Jerome of Prague, John Huss, and other Hussites were really Eastern Orthodox. I first encountered this idea about 8 years ago among some Eastern Orthodox. If I recall correctly, it was actively promoted by the Czech Orthodox Church which is actually less than a century old. I may be confusing the COC with some other church, however. I could find none of the old websites that used to promote the Hussite-became-Orthodox idea.


39 posted on 08/12/2009 5:49:39 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: AnalogReigns; narses

I’m amazed that it took until your post for someone to provide an accurate history.

Very few members of the Moravian sect are actually ethnically Moravian, but instead tend to be German. Ethnic Moravians are for the most part Catholic.

Another side note is that the name Wachovia (as is in the bank) derives from Moravian history.

Lastly, the earliest examples of what we call classical music in the English colonies in Nort America were in the Moravian communities.


40 posted on 08/12/2009 6:28:44 AM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: AnalogReigns; narses

I’m amazed that it took until your post for someone to provide an accurate history.

Very few members of the Moravian sect are actually ethnically Moravian, but instead tend to be German. Ethnic Moravians are for the most part Catholic.

Another side note is that the name Wachovia (as is in the bank) derives from Moravian history.

Lastly, the earliest examples of what we call classical music in the English colonies in Nort America were in the Moravian communities.


41 posted on 08/12/2009 6:28:58 AM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: vladimir998
I was referring to the ahistorical revisionist idea that Jerome of Prague, John Huss, and other Hussites were really Eastern Orthodox.

Yes, that's silly....they were all born into Roman Catholicism--as was the whole country.

However, since they lived less than 500 years from the first generation of Czech Christians who WERE originally Eastern Orthodox...and only forced into Rome's orbit for political reasons, many historians surmise that there was a generations-old resentment against the Roman Catholic Church, which made them more quickly revolt with Hus' urging.

Even relatively long past history affects peoples' attitudes in the present. Spain for example led the quest for Roman Catholic doctrinal purity with the Inquisition. They had only just finally ejected the Moors (and the Jews) in 1493...(and many thousand we now know were secretly not orthodox Catholics). Hence, the country had something to prove to the rest of Europe that they were loyal Roman Catholics--so they reacted with a strain of fanatical devotion, in the Inquisition.

It's interesting that one of Protestant history's famous heretics at that time (by any Christian measure) was Micheal Servetus. He had been tried and condemned to death twice (in absentia) by Roman Catholic Inquisition courts--but it took Calvin's Geneva to try him a 3rd time and execute this anti-trinitarian.

Different times, and different people. Or perhaps its just different times, and different heresies...

42 posted on 08/12/2009 8:01:18 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

(forgot to add, Micheal Servetus was a Spaniard.)


43 posted on 08/12/2009 8:03:21 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

You wrote:

“Yes, that’s silly....they were all born into Roman Catholicism—as was the whole country. However, since they lived less than 500 years from the first generation of Czech Christians who WERE originally Eastern Orthodox...”

No, actually they were Catholics. Sts. Cyril and Methodius lived before 1054 and the final split between East and West. There was no such thing as the “Eastern Orthodox.” They are all just Catholics. They received the blessing and support of Pope Adrian II, for instance. Western bishops also ordained Cyril and Methodius’ closest Slav followers as priests. This means that the Pope and the Catholic Church of course, considered the mission of Sts. Cyril and Methodius to be entirely Catholic. Also, it is clear to historians that the people whom Sts. Cyril and Methodius preached to, had already been introduced to Christianity as is clear in the letter of King Rastislav of Moravia to Byzantine Emperor Michael III.

“and only forced into Rome’s orbit for political reasons, many historians surmise that there was a generations-old resentment against the Roman Catholic Church, which made them more quickly revolt with Hus’ urging.”

Actually, no, no reputable historian believes there was a centuries old (it would have to be more than 550 years old) grudge against Rome or the Catholic Church which fed into the Hussite revolt. The easiest way to expose that “grudge” as the nutty idea it is is to ask what proof of it there is. The answer, of course, is absolutely none. The exact opposite is the truth. Throughout the Middle Ages, right up until the trials and tribulations of the 14th century, Moravia/Bohemia was extremely loyal to the Church and reaped enormous rewards and blessings from Church membership that would have eluded it otherwise.

“Even relatively long past history affects peoples’ attitudes in the present. Spain for example led the quest for Roman Catholic doctrinal purity with the Inquisition.”

No. 1) There was no such thing as the “Roman Catholic Church”. There was only the Catholic Church. 2) Spain did not lead the way. It was not the first nation to have inquisitorial tribunals set up within its borders. 3) Spain wanted the inquisition for more than religious reasons. The Spanish Inquisition was actually a governmental organ, staffed to a great extent by government bureaucrats, and commissioned to carry out a program of religious integration to help meld a new state - Spain.

“They had only just finally ejected the Moors (and the Jews) in 1493...(and many thousand we now know were secretly not orthodox Catholics). Hence, the country had something to prove to the rest of Europe that they were loyal Roman Catholics—so they reacted with a strain of fanatical devotion, in the Inquisition.”

No. The Spanish Inquisition was not fanatical. It was established to protect Spain - a new nation - from fanaticism and at the same time false Christians. The pogroms of the 14th century and the attacks on New Christians (Jewish converts) as well as attacks FROM New Christians on Old Christians demanded that the issue be resolved to protect Spain from fanaticism on all sides. People often forget about things like the July 21st storming of the Cathedral of Toledo by the New Christian, Fernando de la Torre and his private army of fellow New Christians. A struggle ensued in the Cathedral and it spilled out into the streets. Neighboring towns sent men to aid the Old Christians and De La Torre was hanged. A massacre of New Christians followed. That was in 1467.

That was the sort of fanaticism the inquisition wanted to crush.

The final straw for Isabella - in the city that Isabella made her temporary capitol and which Torquemada (who was of Jewish decent) lived - was a war between New Christians. One New Christian leader decided to attack the other under the guise of an anti-New Christian uprising. The target - the governor of the region - (yes, he was a New Christian), was warned of the coming attack by Cardinal Borgia (who later became Pope Alexander VI). He escaped. The attack was vicious and bloody. Isabella and Ferdinand later thanked the governor for his defense of the New Christians. This was on May 16, 1474. The inquisition was established just four years later.

When Sixtus IV established the inquisition under the control of the monarchs he clearly detailed what the problem was: people were pretending to be Christians and this led to “wars,” “slaughter”, “evident injuries to men”, and “to the peril of souls, and the scandal of many.” The pope went on to praise Ferdinand and Isabella for their “praiseworthy zeal for the safety of souls.”

“It’s interesting that one of Protestant history’s famous heretics at that time (by any Christian measure) was Micheal Servetus. He had been tried and condemned to death twice (in absentia) by Roman Catholic Inquisition courts—but it took Calvin’s Geneva to try him a 3rd time and execute this anti-trinitarian.”

Of course, he was also once tried - in 1538 - by the inquisition for some of his odd beliefs and practices that he had made public - and was acquitted! The inquisition tribunals were much more fair than people give them credit for.

“Different times, and different people. Or perhaps its just different times, and different heresies...”

I see no relationship whatsoever between the ninth century conversion of Moravia, Jews in Spain, Servetus, etc. Nor do other historians.


44 posted on 08/12/2009 10:11:32 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: AmericanVictory

“I would be surprised if they were connected with the Orthodox but will defer to those who know more about them.”

See some of the other commentors on the history of this group. NO connection with any Orthodox Churches.

I don’t like pacifists in any form and flavor. They are free to practise their peculiar beliefs only because OTHER Americans were willing to die in their place.

As for considering alcohol use equivalent to drug abuse, that is pretty absurd. Moderate alcohol consumption is not deleterious, criminal, or un-American. Pacifism is.

Its a free country and they are of course free to believe whateveer they believe, but presenting themselves as part of the mainstream American religious current is, I think, stretching it.


45 posted on 08/12/2009 10:49:44 AM PDT by ZULU (God guts and guns made America great. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: vladimir998

I’m well aware that the Western Roman Church had had not broken with the Eastern Churches (now known as Eastern Orthodox) in Cyril’s and Methodius’ day... However, the cultural divide between eastern and western Christians was already very evident by the 800s. Cyril and Methodius were from the east, not from the Latin Church—even while given Rome’s approval.

Actually there is a lot of evidence that before Huss, the Bohemian people (what their rulers did is a different matter) did have issues with Roman corruption (the utraquist controversy pre-dates Huss for example)— as did many conscientious Christians throughout Europe.

“The Spanish Inquisition was actually a governmental organ, staffed to a great extent by government bureaucrats, and commissioned to carry out a program of religious integration to help meld a new state - Spain.” Ummm, pretty much that’s exactly what I said—Spain wanted to prove its Roman orthdoxy.

“No. The Spanish Inquisition was not fanatical. It was established to protect Spain - a new nation - from fanaticism and at the same time false Christians.”

I’m of the opinion that any and all punishment, in particular capitol punishment, for religious disagreement, is BY DEFINITION, fanatical. (I’m American.) Don’t you agree?

It sounds very much like you are defending the persecutions by the Inquistion?

And actually I have read the definitive biography of Servetus, by Roland Bainton, and he yes, he really was condemned twice by Roman Catholic courts—for religious offenses. (The 2nd time he was tried, he escaped, before the end of the trial).

I’m a Calvinist....however I’m also happy to say Calvin and Geneva did the wrong thing, when they executed Servetus. It was culturally acceptable—and not uncommon in that day, to execute people just for their religious views, still, it was wrong.

Of course there is no direct connection between the Roman Catholic Spanish Inquisition, the trials and execution of Micheal Servetus, or the severe mistreatment and murders of the Moravians—except that Roman Catholicism—and the long legacy of religious intolerance in Europe—persecuted them all.

As to, “1) There was no such thing as the “Roman Catholic Church“” And I guess there’s no Roman church today, eh? Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.


46 posted on 08/12/2009 11:27:43 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: ZULU

Moravians are not now—nor were they originally, pacifists. Quakers and Mennonites are (and always have been)—and have nothing in common with Moravian history(came from completely different parts of Europe)—except that some settled in the same parts of America (Pennsylvania).

I don’t approve of pacifism either, however, unlike some Methodists you mentioned, the Mennonites (I have a couple Mennonite friends from college) have always been that way—and not out of cowardice. They read the New Testament very literally (and don’t properly understand the Old Testament, in my opinion) and hence cannot put “love your enemies” (as Jesus did indeed say) and warfare together. (That Jesus highly complimented a Roman Centurion, and that soldiers were never told to quit their jobs in the NT, they don’t take into account...)

Anabaptists like Mennonites are very sincere however in what they believe their responsibilities as Christians are—and they are willing (and have, often) to suffer for it. That’s not being cowards—mistaken, yes, I believe so—but not cowardly, and not un-American. Mennonites for example were very loyal hard-working, risk-taking Medics in WWII....they helped their country, they just would not kill for it. Although I disagree, I do respect that...and so did Lee and Washington, by the way...


47 posted on 08/12/2009 11:47:28 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

You wrote:

“However, the cultural divide between eastern and western Christians was already very evident by the 800s. Cyril and Methodius were from the east, not from the Latin Church—even while given Rome’s approval.”

It was still ONE Church at that time. That was the point, and it’s irrefutable no matter what cultural divide there was.

“Actually there is a lot of evidence that before Huss, the Bohemian people (what their rulers did is a different matter) did have issues with Roman corruption (the utraquist controversy pre-dates Huss for example)— as did many conscientious Christians throughout Europe.”

You’re creating a straw man. I never said, nor do I doubt, that many people were upset about corrupt members of the Church. Can you name any nation that was not upset about corruption in the Church? No. They all were and they all still are. There are always corrupt people in the Church. Acknowledging the fact that there were Bohemians calling for reform in the 15th century is a world away from saying that there was centuries old antipathy toward Rome because of events in the 9th century. What you’re doing is akin to saying people are upset about health care reform measures because of an antipathy against the Federal Government that stems from Lincoln’s wartime federal seizure of perogatives from the states. Sorry, no go.

“Ummm, pretty much that’s exactly what I said—Spain wanted to prove its Roman orthdoxy.”

No. That is not what I said. Nor is it what happened. Spain was not trying to prove anything about its orthodoxy. Spain was using a new court tribunal to weed out those it viewed as subversive. That’s not about PROVING orthodoxy to someone. Pray tell who was it that was demanding that this PROVING take place and exactly how was the inquisition designed to make it happen?

“I’m of the opinion that any and all punishment, in particular capitol punishment, for religious disagreement, is BY DEFINITION, fanatical. (I’m American.) Don’t you agree?”

No. I do not agree. It is also stupid to insinuate that “I’n American” means someone must agree with your view of things to be an American. I’m a Christian. My roots - like that of all Christians - are Jewish. Jews were not opposed to the death penalty for some religious crimes and I see no reason why - given the circumstances and understandings of the Middle Ages - such standards under Christian auspices should not apply.

“It sounds very much like you are defending the persecutions by the Inquistion?”

Persecutions? No. Rooting out, reconciliation or punishment of heretics in most circumstances in a Christian nation in the Middle Ages? Yes.

“And actually I have read the definitive biography of Servetus, by Roland Bainton, and he yes, he really was condemned twice by Roman Catholic courts—for religious offenses. (The 2nd time he was tried, he escaped, before the end of the trial).”

I never said he was not condemned twice. He was in fact executed in effigy at least once. You seem to have difficulty reading. I never said he was not turned over to the secular arm by the inquisition. I said he was once acquited by an inquisition. And that is irrefutably true. Also, there were no such things as “Roman Catholic courts”. An inquisition is not a “Roman Catholic court” and can be a secular dominated tribunal dependeing on time and place. Also, Bainton’s biography - more than 50 years old now - is a lightweight work compared to the two books authored by Marian Hillar in 1997 and 2003. I can’t say I agree with Hillar on everything but the research depth is amazing. Hillar’s works leave Bainton in the dust quite frankly.

“I’m a Calvinist....however I’m also happy to say Calvin and Geneva did the wrong thing, when they executed Servetus. It was culturally acceptable—and not uncommon in that day, to execute people just for their religious views, still, it was wrong.”

It was wrong - for Calvin and Geneva. They had no authority to do anything that they did to Servetus or anyone else for that matter.

“Of course there is no direct connection between the Roman Catholic Spanish Inquisition, the trials and execution of Micheal Servetus, or the severe mistreatment and murders of the Moravians—except that Roman Catholicism—and the long legacy of religious intolerance in Europe—persecuted them all.”

Incorrect. Servetus was executed by Protestants. There were no murders of Moravians by the Catholic Church. There was no such thing as the “Roman Catholic Spanish Inquisition”. There is the Catholic Church. And there was the Spanish Inquisition.

“As to, “1) There was no such thing as the “Roman Catholic Church“” And I guess there’s no Roman church today, eh? Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.”

No, there is no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church. There is the Roman Church, which is part of the Catholic Church. “Roman Catholic Church” is a phrase largely invented and entirely popularized in English by Protestants. Just check the Oxford English Dictionary and you’ll see what I mean. This is at least the second time (or more likely the fourth time) where you have said one thing was another. Disagree with me all you like, but at least disagree with what I actually said and don’t pretend one thing is another.


48 posted on 08/12/2009 1:03:53 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: AnalogReigns; ZULU

You wrote:

“Moravians are not now—nor were they originally, pacifists.”

They were pacifists in the 18th and 19th centuries, however - that is if you believe the Moravians themselves:

“Despite the fact that the 18th century Moravians were pacifists, gunsmithing was a necessary trade.”

http://www.moravianhistoricalsociety.org/education/nazWalkTour-3.php

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:kFHIjF2jAxsJ:www.moravianseminary.edu/center/Hinge/16.2/Hinge16.2_Roberson.pdf+moravians+pacifists&hl=en&gl=us


49 posted on 08/12/2009 1:10:43 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

“Despite the fact that the 18th century Moravians were pacifists, gunsmithing was a necessary trade.”

Guns were a necessary tool in the 1700’s - bears, wolves, cougars were common, so were game animals and making guns back then was not looked upon the same way too many people today do.

One of the earliest extant Pennsylvania Long Rifles, the Edward Marshall Rifle - currently in the Buck’s County PA Museum, was made at Christian Springs, PA - probably by Moravians. But that still doesn’t mean they were not pacifists themselves.


50 posted on 08/12/2009 1:36:29 PM PDT by ZULU (God guts and guns made America great. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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