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Fr. Al Kimel on the 12 Differences between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches
Vivificat! - News, Opinion, Commentary & Reflections from a personal Catholic perspective ^ | 12 August 2009 | Fr. Al Kimel

Posted on 08/12/2009 4:41:31 AM PDT by Teˇfilo

Folks, you all probably remember Fr. Al Kimel, legendary author of the blog Pontifications, an Anglican convert to the Catholic Church and currently a Catholic priest in New Jersey.  Well, the good father wanted to comment on my post on the Twelve Differences Between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, but his comments were too long for the comment field. He then sent his input to me which I am now reproducing for your reading pleasure. Folks, it is my distinct honor and pleasure to present to you Fr. Al Kimel:

 

Your list raises many questions for me.  My suspicion is that both the Latin and Eastern traditions are more diverse than is sometimes entertained.  Here are some brief thoughts and questions about each of the Twelve Differences:

1)  This seems accurate.  The Catholic Church, of course, makes a similar claim about herself.

2)  Is it true that the Orthodox Church rejects totally any understanding of ecclesial headship?  What about the bishop of a diocese?  Does he not wield and embody a divine authority given to him by Christ Jesus?  Is he not the head of his community, which precisely is the Church?  And when Catholics speak of the Pope as the earthly head of the Church, are they in any way denying that Christ alone is properly head of the Church?  When Catholics speak of the primacy of the Pope, are they exalting the Pope above the Episcopate, as if their power and authority derived from him?  And are Orthodox theologians incapable of entertaining an authentic primacy within the episcopal college for the bishop of Rome?  I refer folks to the collection of essays *The Petrine Ministry*, ed. Walter Cardinal Kasper, and Paul McPartlan, *The Eucharist Makes the Church*.  It is important to observe that the sobornost theory of Khomiakov, which has become so influential in some parts of diaspora Orthodoxy, is itself a matter of some controversy within Orthodoxy:  see, e.g., Stylianos Harkianakis, *The Infallibility of the Church in Orthodox Theology*. 

I am not denying that important ecclesiological differences may and perhaps do exist between the two communions, but it is not at all clear to me that they are accurately specified by a difference in "headship."  Both communions struggle to assert the hierarchical authority of bishops, while at the same time grounding this authority not in power but in eucharistic love and qualifying this authority by the coming Kingdom. 

3) This may be an accurate statement of a real difference, yet sometimes things are not as always as clear as they sometimes appear.  See, e.g., the Ravenna document:  http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

4) This statement does not accurately represent the Catholic understanding of the Church.  The Catholic Church understands the Church precisely as a communion of particular Churches and local dioceses; moreover, the Church as the universal Church is not to be understood as simply the sum or collection of all particular Churches:  each diocese is itself a truly catholic body.  See *Lumen gentium* and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, *Called to Communion*.  Catholic ecclesiology is so much more complex and diverse than is sometimes appreciated.  

5) I think that most Orthodox theologians would agree with this.

6) Does this statement accurately represent consensual Orthodox opinion?  I know that some Orthodox theologians speak this way, but I am dubious that this view represents *the* Orthodox understanding of authority, particularly when Orthodox are talking, not to Catholics, but to each other, and especially when Orthodox bishops and priests are speaking to the Orthodox faithful.  On the Catholic side, on the other hand, all contemporary Catholic theologians seek to interpret authority and authority through Christ Jesus and the mutual love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Even the Pope, it is now commonly asserted, presides in charity and is the servant of the servants of God. 

7) I'm sure there are differences between Catholic construals of anthropology and Orthodox construals of anthropology (please note the plural); but I do not believe that this is because the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches a forensic imputation of original sin and the Orthodox Church does not.  Why do I say this?  Because it is not at all clear to me that the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches the *forensic* imputation of Adam's guilt to humanity.  I know that some (many?) Catholic theologians have sometimes taught something like this over the centuries, but the Catholic Church has strained over recent decades to clarify the meaning of Original Sin not as the forensic transfer of Adam's guilt but as the inheritance of the Adamic condition of real alienation from God--i.e., the absence of sanctifying grace.  Consider the catechetical teaching of John Paul II:

"In this context it is evident that original sin in Adamâ’s descendants does not have the character of personal guilt. It is the privation of sanctifying grace in a nature which has been diverted from its supernatural end through the fault of the first parents. It is a 'sin of nature,' only analogically comparable to 'personal sin.' In the state of original justice, before sin, sanctifying grace was like a supernatural 'endowment' of human nature. The loss of grace is contained in the inner 'logic' of sin, which is a rejection of the will of God, who bestows this gift. Sanctifying grace has ceased to constitute the supernatural enrichment of that nature which the first parents passed on to all their descendants in the state in which it existed when human generation began. Therefore man is conceived and born without sanctifying grace. It is precisely this 'initial state' of man, linked to his origin, that constitutes the essence of original sin as a legacy (peccatum originale originatum, as it is usually called)."

Important differences on the nature of original exist between St Augustine and magisterial Catholic teaching.  As influential as the bishop of Hippo has been, his positions have not been received uncritically or without correction.  For my own very fallible reflections on this question, see:  http://pontifications.wordpress.com/original-sin/.  I would suggest that hyper-Augustinianism is not only impossible in Orthodoxy, but it is also impossible in contemporary Catholicism. 

8)  Once the Catholic understanding of Original Sin is properly clarified, then the differences between Catholics and Orthodox on the topic of the Blessed Virgin's Immaculate Conception narrows considerably.  What, after all, does the dogma positively assert?  Nothing more nor less than the full and perfect indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul of the Theotokos from the moment of her conception.  At no point in her existence was she ever separated from God.  Do Orthodox theologians really want to assert otherwise? 

9)  It is certainly true that the Divine Liturgy is decisive for Orthodox faith and life and "is the true locus of Orthodox unity"; but does this represent a critical difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism?  The last time I checked going to Mass was still pretty important for Catholics, which is why the liturgy is such a battleground in the contemporary Catholic Church.  Certainly the fathers of Vatican II believed that the Eucharist is the true locus of Catholic unity (see Sacrosanctum Concilium). 

10) I agree here that there are important differences between Catholic and Orthodox liturgical praxis at the present time.  Sadly, many sectors of the Catholic Church appear to have uncritically embraced the thesis that the Church must adapt her liturgy to the spirit of the modern age.  This has been disastrous for Catholic life and spirituality.  One does see signs, however, that the insanity is passing. 

11) I guess there is a difference here, but is it really worth mentioning. 

12) The Catholic understanding of grace, sanctification, and glorification is inadequately presented in this statement.  While perhaps it might have been true at some point in the past that Catholic theologians tended to reduce grace to a created power, this cannot be asserted today.  Catholic theologians are quite clear that everything begins with and centers around Uncreated Grace.  Catholic theologians do have a problem with some of the Palamite construals of grace and the popular Orthodox rejection of any notion of created grace--they do not see how the Palamite position does not lead to the annihilation of human nature--but this does not mean that Catholic theologians and poets cannot envision an eschatological life as full and vivid as the Orthodox.  Surely Dante's Paradiso may be invoked at this point.  But I do acknowledge a difference of homiletical and ascetical emphasis between Catholics and Orthodox on theosis, sanctifying suffering, and the life of the resurrection. 


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: catholic; cult
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To: HarleyD

INDEED.

I think it depends on . . .

the significantizer . . . and the criteria used! LOL.

Of course, when the Vatican Magicsterical gets into the act . . . all other bets are off. They don’t take any prisoners.


41 posted on 06/13/2011 6:06:52 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name

More than a little plausible, imho.


42 posted on 06/13/2011 6:07:47 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: editor-surveyor

INDEED.


43 posted on 06/13/2011 6:09:08 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: editor-surveyor
The mystical, invisible church is the Bride of Christ, and will rise to meet him in the air, the First Resurrection, at the beginning of Christ’s millenial reign.


44 posted on 06/13/2011 6:19:18 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: presently no screen name
And those left will learn the hard way - and finally ‘get it’ when they see their church wondering what happened as their hierarchy hide in the vatican, the pope-mobile mothballed, as all hell breaks loose.

In order for that to happen, one must toss out most of the NT. I think that I'll stick with the Word, and let you lot choose your own destiny.

45 posted on 06/13/2011 6:40:32 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: editor-surveyor

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? I bet you have.

Well, we ask the Blessed Mother to pray for us.

That’s it.

Just like asking a best friend to pray for us.

Got it?


46 posted on 06/13/2011 8:30:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

She’s dead.

She’s with the lord in spirit, but she has no ears, and can only know what the Lord relates to her.

If you ask her and get an answer, you’re dancing with evil spirits.


47 posted on 06/13/2011 8:57:37 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Going 'EGYPT' - 2012!)
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To: editor-surveyor; Salvation

An answer or a vision both.. dancing with the devil.


48 posted on 06/13/2011 8:59:57 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Blasphemy is all I expect when I see your handle.

No disappointment so far.


49 posted on 06/13/2011 9:00:07 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Going 'EGYPT' - 2012!)
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To: MarkBsnr
In order for that to happen, one must toss out most of the NT.

The counterfeit church's interpretation of it - YES.

I think that I'll stick with the Word,

Is God's Word THE FINAL AUTHORITY to you?
50 posted on 06/13/2011 9:05:18 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: editor-surveyor; smvoice

I’ll pray for you.

I don’t think you understand that only the Body dies when a person dies. The soul still lives.

So whether that soul spends and eternity in heaven or hell — it is still alive.

Likewise for the souls in Purgatory that are being purged of the little incidents of damage they did to others while they were alive and for which they did not seek forgiveness.

I know we disagree on this, but wouldn’t you be surprised if you died tomorrow and found out that your soul was still alive?


51 posted on 06/13/2011 9:06:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
How many times have Catholics told you that they venerate Mary? That they do not worship her?

Catholics only mimic what they are taught - What they say means nothing to those who haven't been brainwashed with those teachings. And even less to those who had been brainwashed but found The Truth and renewed their mind and killed those sacred cows.

Why do you continue to believe the lies that someone is telling you?

The lie is worship isn't worship. Why do catholics continue to believe that. Idolatry isn't attractive nor is any cult pushing it.

Related to VENERATE Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, worship

As he kneels at the statue of Mary Pope John Paull II has 'dedicated himself and his Pontificate to Our Lady.' He bears the letter "M" for Mary in his coat of arms. And his personal motto, which is embroidered on the side of his robes in Latin is the following: "TOTUS TUUS SUM MARIA", which in English translates to: "MARY, I'M ALL YOURS."

What a little groupie he was with his idolatry.

Besides turning over their soul to the church - catholics turned over their brains, also. "Now kiddies we are not worshiping Mary - it's called venerate - now kneel and pray to her to help us". No one in the right mind would fall for that deception.

What he sowed, he's now reaping - deception and where it came from. You don't sow idol worship/deception and reap Jesus/Truth.

52 posted on 06/13/2011 9:34:21 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: Salvation
I don’t think you understand that only the Body dies when a person dies. The soul still lives.

Unless you are Mary, and have been bodily assumed into Heaven. According to something..I'm not sure which what made that doctrine, all I know is it isn't the Bible..

53 posted on 06/13/2011 9:37:43 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: Salvation
but wouldn’t you be surprised if you died tomorrow and found out that your soul was still alive?

DUH! Christianity 101 - the spirit, the soul never dies. Those hell bent on believing God's Word is not The Final Authority better get a grip on that one. And, also, that there is no purgatory - if anyone is going to burn - it's for eternity.

Jesus the SAVIOR is not enough for catholics - they need to clean up their sins themselves. Jesus the SAVIOR is not enough for catholics - they assign a co-redeemer for Him.

Blasphemy, Idolatry, Disobedience - won't catholics be surprised when they find out God will not be mocked.
54 posted on 06/13/2011 9:50:26 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: presently no screen name

There is only one Redeemer, Jesus Christ, Our Lord.

Where do you get these crazy ideas?


55 posted on 06/13/2011 9:52:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; Quix
There is only one Redeemer, Jesus Christ, Our Lord.Where do you get these crazy ideas?

Crazy Idea? Is that another one of those - worship isn't worship?

If Jesus is the ONLY Redeemer for catholics why did their pope - say 'Mary I'm all yours' as he knelt before the icon statue in his embroidered worship gown? Where did he get this crazy idea that he's passed on to his subjects. Mary can't do a flip for him or anyone. Only disobedience to God's Word would someone come up with that deception and commit idolatry on a level of the highest order.

The Vatican/RCC have counterfeit titles for man to mock who JESUS IS!

Jesus is The mediator - catholics say Mary is our mediator.
Jesus is The King of Kings - catholics say Mary is Queen of Heaven, etc
Jesus was the ONLY sinless one - catholics say Mary is sinless.
Jesus taught us to pray to The Father - catholics say we pray to Mary and any other saint that's the flavor of the day.

Catholicism is over the top in deception, blasphemy, paganism, idolatry, disobedience.
56 posted on 06/13/2011 10:51:13 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: editor-surveyor

No, that’s purely left to you!


57 posted on 06/13/2011 11:46:12 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: presently no screen name

Crazy Idea? Is that another one of those - worship isn’t worship?

If Jesus is the ONLY Redeemer for catholics why did their pope - say ‘Mary I’m all yours’ as he knelt before the icon statue in his embroidered worship gown? Where did he get this crazy idea that he’s passed on to his subjects. Mary can’t do a flip for him or anyone. Only disobedience to God’s Word would someone come up with that deception and commit idolatry on a level of the highest order.

The Vatican/RCC have counterfeit titles for man to mock who JESUS IS!

Jesus is The mediator - catholics say Mary is our mediator.
Jesus is The King of Kings - catholics say Mary is Queen of Heaven, etc
Jesus was the ONLY sinless one - catholics say Mary is sinless.
Jesus taught us to pray to The Father - catholics say we pray to Mary and any other saint that’s the flavor of the day.

Catholicism is over the top in deception, blasphemy, paganism, idolatry, disobedience.


ABSOLUTELY INDEED.


58 posted on 06/14/2011 2:58:12 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: editor-surveyor
Blasphemy is all I expect when I see your handle.

Yeah, yeah, it's all about you, isn't it? If you'd become Christian, we could discuss Christianity on an even par.

59 posted on 06/14/2011 5:36:20 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: presently no screen name
In order for that to happen, one must toss out most of the NT.

The counterfeit church's interpretation of it - YES.

Then stop attending a counterfeit church.

I think that I'll stick with the Word, Is God's Word THE FINAL AUTHORITY to you?

Jesus is God's Word. That's good enough for me.

60 posted on 06/14/2011 5:37:58 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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