Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Vatican watcher stands by accuracy of report on papal 'reform of the reform'
cna ^ | August 31, 2009

Posted on 08/31/2009 10:18:25 AM PDT by NYer

Pope Benedict XVI

Rome, Italy, Aug 31, 2009 / 10:02 am (CNA).- The Italian Vatican analyst Andrea Tornielli wrote this past Saturday on his blog that the recent clarifications by high-ranking Vatican officials do not refute what he stated in a column for the Italian daily Il Giornale on August 22. Tornielli had reported that Pope Benedict XVI is considering various measures to move forward with a liturgical “reform of the reform.”
 
Both in his column and on his usually well-sourced blog, Tornielli announced on August 22 that the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, led by Cardinal Antonio Canizares, had put forth a series of liturgical reforms—including greater use of Latin in the Mass, the possibility of celebrating the Mass ad orientum at least during the consecration, and a greater emphasis on Communion on the tongue—that were being studied by the Holy Father.
 
In an apparent response to the report by Tornielli, the vice director of the Holy See’s Press Office, Father Ciro Benedettini, said on August 24, “No institutional proposals currently exist that refer to a modification of the liturgical books.” Additionally, last Friday, in an interview with L’Osservatore Romano, Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone called the reports “imaginary.”
 
According to Tornielli, the denial by Father Benedettini and the comments by Cardinal Bertone were provoked not by his article but “rather, by the manner in which the story was picked up by various blogs, which claimed the ‘reform of the reform’ and the changes to the Mass in a more traditional sense were imminent.”
 
He said on Saturday that his column referred to “the beginning of work” and not to “imminent reforms or documents already prepared,” adding that both the results of the meeting of the Congregation led by Cardinal Canizares as well as their presentation to the Pope for his consideration are real facts.
 
“All of this is an attempt to tell people not to believe what I wrote, saying there is nothing happening, that the Pope and the Congregation for Divine Worship are not considering anything, that the ‘reform of the reform’ and the recovery of a greater sense of the sacred in the Liturgy is a false story reported by me,” Tornielli said.
 
He concluded his blog saying, “Ever since I become a Vatican analyst I have made many mistakes and I will continue to make them, but the article in question, believe me, is not among them.”


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic

1 posted on 08/31/2009 10:18:25 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 08/31/2009 10:19:01 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Will this bring back the chant music or is that something different from the Latin Mass? Just curious.


3 posted on 08/31/2009 11:05:25 AM PDT by Radl (NO mO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Hope this report is definitive.


4 posted on 08/31/2009 11:09:39 AM PDT by Steelfish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Radl
Chant's already back, at least in some quarters.

If we sing a motet, we sing the chant first as a prelude. We also chant the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin on first Sundays.

5 posted on 08/31/2009 11:37:16 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

We sing Leonard Cohen.


6 posted on 08/31/2009 11:44:53 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Health Care Reform has met the DEATH Panel.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler

7 posted on 08/31/2009 11:46:38 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler
In church?

Hope it's not "The Sisters of Mercy".

8 posted on 08/31/2009 11:47:17 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

They changed the words, but our Alleluia is set to Cohen’s “Hallelujah”.

Hey, at least it isn’t “I’m Your Man”!


9 posted on 08/31/2009 11:49:11 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Health Care Reform has met the DEATH Panel.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
our Alleluia is set to Cohen’s “Hallelujah”.

Which is a somber, soulful tune- for the Alleluia?

10 posted on 08/31/2009 11:50:13 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Health Care Reform has met the DEATH Panel.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler
It doesn't fit. I don't think Cohen set out to write liturgical music, did he?

I gotta stick with the opinion of HH BXVI - popular music is fine in its proper place, which is not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

11 posted on 08/31/2009 11:54:19 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
It doesn't fit. I don't think Cohen set out to write liturgical music, did he?

No, Cohen is a brilliant songwriter, but his music has NO place in a religious setting, let alone as liturgical music.

Unfortunately, a majority of clergy and choir directors are either ignorant of or disdainful for the actual purpose of liturgical music.

[Every mass a children's mass!]

12 posted on 08/31/2009 12:15:34 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Health Care Reform has met the DEATH Panel.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler
Every Mass a teenage rock'n'roll Mass . . . ?

I weep when I think how the American Catholic church (or at least large parts of it) jettisoned its musical tradition for a mess of tasteless pop pottage. I mean, the Episcopalians may be a bunch of screaming heretics, but at least they have good taste. Usually. There are some awful 'folk Masses' in ECUSA . . . but usually kept under wraps. In our former ECUSA parish, the 'HI Spirits' were the folk group, consisting of people who couldn't audition in to the regular parish choir . . . they were relegated to the children's 9 AM service . . . once a month.

I hope that the main offenders in the Catholic Church are the hippie idiots of the 60s and 70s who will soon be retiring and leave the rest of us alone.

13 posted on 08/31/2009 12:56:54 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Reform of the reform can’t come soon enough for me. I’ve been going to my territorial parish all summer (during the school year I sing in the choir at another parish that has a decent and fairly traditional music program). The microphone is turned up full blast, and even though I sit in the last pew, I just cannot stand to have the cantor belt out his/her treacly modern songs on a thunderous scale or to have the readings proclaimed such that they can be heard two or three blocks away. The mike could be turned down 50% and everyone in the church would still hear just fine. It is not required for full and active participation in the mass that everybody’s eardrums get broken. I can only think what a horrible impression would be given to any inquirer coming to see what a Catholic mass was like. And Vatican II says Gregorian chant should have pride of place — when has my parish last had that, 40 years ago? Can’t we have even a little of Church’s liturgical artistic and musical patrimony, even if we still have to suffer through one or two modern ditties as well?


14 posted on 08/31/2009 1:49:59 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam
When I go to noon Mass, I have to go to a crazy Franciscan parish downtown. They are loons who ad lib during the Consecration and so forth.

The music is, naturally, simply horrible. Last week we had "We Shall Overcome" for the entrance hymn.

The head man took the cake today, though, for some reason he decided to preach today's Gospel about the Pharisees in reference to illegal immigration. Said that everybody was 'frantic' about it, and that Catholics shouldn't leave illegal immigrants 'to the mercy of the U.S. Congress', and since we (all eight of us) were coming to daily Mass, we had "upped the ante" and we had to be careful not to just pick and choose what we wanted out of Catholic teaching.

I swear I didn't snort, or mutter, or throw tomatoes, or anything . . . I did smile and tilt my head thoughtfully to one side . . . and he stammered and lost his train of thought. Don't know if my smile had any effect, like that of a basilisk, or if he just suddenly realized the implications of what he was saying.

I could have said, "Now WHO is it that runs the gay-friendly, rainbow parish here? And WHO is it that ignores the rubrics? And WHO is it that ignores the implications of giving communion to raving pro-aborts and canonizing Ted Kennedy?" But I didn't even say what I usually say when a preacher gets political - "C.S. Lewis was right - all a political homily ever tells you is which newspapers are taken at the rectory."

I couldn't say any of those things, because he legged it for the sacristy as soon as he had said, "The Mass is ended, go in peace." And he usually comes down and mingles.

15 posted on 08/31/2009 3:09:35 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Radl
Will this bring back the chant music or is that something different from the Latin Mass? Just curious.

I know as much as you do. How do you interpret this?

He said on Saturday that his column referred to “the beginning of work” and not to “imminent reforms or documents already prepared,” adding that both the results of the meeting of the Congregation led by Cardinal Canizares as well as their presentation to the Pope for his consideration are real facts.

16 posted on 08/31/2009 3:46:33 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

Yeah, we’ve got some crazy Franciscans in downtown Boston as well, although they do have convenient confession hours during the day. We also have some Oblates that have reintroduced Perpetual Adoration and even have put up advertisements in the subway and on highway hoardings about it, so things are not all bad.


17 posted on 08/31/2009 6:12:06 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam
I will say this regarding the Franciscans . . . they are sometimes downright kooky, and almost always somewhat eccentric, and almost always liberal too.

But they're honest by their lights, and I've never met a really mean one -- they tend to be somewhat emphatic, but they're never nasty or slippery.

Can't say the same for some other orders . . . .

18 posted on 08/31/2009 6:28:00 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

Of course their founder was kind of a nutter (and I say that with all due affection) — what with rolling about in the snow and taking the Evangelical counsels literally and all that, so eccentricity is perhaps part of their charism...


19 posted on 08/31/2009 6:55:40 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam

LOL! I had one yell at me in the confessional, “THAT’S NOT A SIN!” Loud enough to be heard down the block. Just said, “Yes, Father. No, Father.”


20 posted on 08/31/2009 7:00:50 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

I’ve always said that English services aren’t the problem. Irreverent services are the problem. Just because the service isn’t in Latin doesn’t make it disrespectful. Just look at the 1928 BCP or the Orthodox Church in America.

I’ve seen quite a few “folk masses” in ECUSA. They’re usually pulled off by aging hipsters who want to have a 60’s era drum circle and accoustic guitar jam in the context of the Eucharist. The one place, and likely the only place, such a thing is appropriate would be during a high school youth retreat at some camp where everything is informal (think of Happening weekends).


21 posted on 08/31/2009 7:58:10 PM PDT by bobjam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: NYer

I have no idea. I think the music was beautiful although I couldn’t understand any of the words. I hope it makes a comeback.


22 posted on 08/31/2009 8:00:58 PM PDT by Radl (NO mO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
" I weep when I think how the American Catholic church (or at least large parts of it) jettisoned its musical tradition for a mess of tasteless pop pottage. I mean, the Episcopalians may be a bunch of screaming heretics, but at least they have good taste. Usually. There are some awful 'folk Masses' in ECUSA . . . but usually kept under wraps. In our former ECUSA parish, the 'HI Spirits' were the folk group, consisting of people who couldn't audition in to the regular parish choir . . . they were relegated to the children's 9 AM service . . . once a month. I hope that the main offenders in the Catholic Church are the hippie idiots of the 60s and 70s who will soon be retiring and leave the rest of us alone."

Totally agree with you, AnAmerican Mother. Being ex-"whiskeypagan" as well, I recall that parts of the old ECUSA still had good music, but parts had stuff that would make a body drink Ripple mixed with root beer! While my own home parish does pretty well music-wise, some of the places I've endured when I've traveled were enough to make you want to unscrew your years and throw them away ("I'll do anything, just stop that bloody-awful schlock"). Eastern Rite parishes excepted; every Eastern parish I've visited has been just plain wonderful. Gorgeous chant and not a hootenany in sight.
23 posted on 09/01/2009 5:17:27 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

Give it ‘em back, AnAmerican Mother! Lord love you!


24 posted on 09/01/2009 5:19:20 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

ROFL! That must have been quite an experience!


25 posted on 09/01/2009 5:20:35 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: bobjam

Oh, believe me, the Episcopal masses can be REALLY bad, too. Banal rock-light knows no bounds. We attend the early Catholic mass, NO music except occasional Latin chants within the liturgy. It is heavenly (and I am a musician. Perhaps all the musicians have fled to the early, no-music services?)


26 posted on 09/01/2009 7:49:56 AM PDT by bboop (Tar and feathers -- good back then, good now)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
I hope that the main offenders in the Catholic Church are the hippie idiots of the 60s and 70s who will soon be retiring and leave the rest of us alone.

Unfortunately, the unindicted co-conspirators at the Oregon Catholic Press (OCP) and the National Association of Pastoral Musicians (NPM) continue to recruit and train new schlockmeisters.

27 posted on 09/01/2009 7:52:30 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA
It was Jim Beam and Tab where I came from . . . although Ripple and root beer sounds pretty appalling!

The Eastern Rite parishes somehow avoided the contagion of the hippies. I wonder how!

We are SO fortunate in our music. The senior permanent deacon in charge of the music program was a music major at LSU, and he has excellent taste. He is now widowed (I played handbells with his wife before she died, tragically young, of cancer) and has commissioned a memorial concert in his wife's honor of all the best music he and our music director can cook up between them. It will be during Advent, and it will be GOOD. Lots of English and German Renaissance composers, with a few French Romantics for leavening.

28 posted on 09/01/2009 8:02:58 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard
Maybe so, but they have to have an audience. They can't live on air and bongo drums.
29 posted on 09/01/2009 8:03:57 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
Maybe so, but they have to have an audience.

Yeah. They do ... you.

Seriously. Do you honestly believe that the average Joe & Mary Catholic, sittin' in their pews actively want OCP/NPM garbage at Mass? Were they ever given a choice?

Not merely "No" but ... "censored NO!!!!!"

The demand comes from "ministers of music" and Priests who either don't know any better, or like the garbage for ideological reasons. Parishoners who object get "delphied" into oblibion.

BTDT.

30 posted on 09/01/2009 8:08:53 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: bobjam
Oh, it doesn't have to be in Latin to be reverent. It's the English translation that's the problem. Hopefully the new translation will help.

But I was raised on the '28 BCP and I miss Cranmer's lovely cadences. But I'd lost them anyhow on account of the hideous new prayer book.

31 posted on 09/01/2009 8:30:59 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard
You can't be 'Delphied' if you're stubborn and canny.

A couple of good determined sensible people on committees can put the kibosh on THAT sort of nonsense. You can't have a mass meeting and 'breakout groups' until you've organized it via committee. THAT's where things really happen.

. . . I wound up on the Music Director Search Committee via working hard for the music program -- indexing sheet music, showing up every practice and Sunday, learning my parts, being friendly to new choir members, recruiting in the congregation (putting the arm on Joe and Mary Catholic), etc. Not any deliberate insinuation to achieve some plot, but simply working hard for what I love.

Once we all quit just complaining and get in there and pitch, it's amazing what can be accomplished.

32 posted on 09/01/2009 8:36:32 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

You’ve commented in the past on the wonderful music at your parish, and it sounds like that has continued.

I think the Eastern Rite parishes avoided all the contagion of the red-diapers because many American Catholics may not be aware that there are even Eastern Rites in the Church! Sometimes obscurity and not being well know may be a blessing. When I visit Williamsburg, I always go to the Byzantine Rite parish there. Absolutely splendid! Their Divine Liturgy is beautiful and spiritually refreshing!


33 posted on 09/01/2009 10:23:51 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard
We got rid of OCP awhile back and use the missalettes from the St. John's Liturgical Press. I wish they would lose the hideous fake woodcuts, but the cover illustrations from the St. John's Bible are magnificent. More importantly, the Psalms have chant tones as well as the more modern settings (which we never ever use), and the hymns include good solid stuff, lots of old German as well as English hymns (with the inevitable dross of "Here I Am Lord (Here's Your Pizza)" and "Weagle's Ings" which we sing from time to time to pacify the hippies.)

We do not have a hymnal, we use song sheets which are under the direct management of the music department for the major Masses, and the back of the missalette for the rest.

We got 40 copies of the St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book (1948 edition) for the choir. Ordered them myself.

34 posted on 09/01/2009 1:34:40 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA
Sometimes it's REALLY good to fly under the radar.

I simply love our music department. Don't know what we'd do without our music director, he's just a stone cold genius and he keeps the standard high.

35 posted on 09/01/2009 1:35:45 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
"Weagle's Ings"

ROFL! I remember the first time I heard that song......I felt like I was standing in the middle of a bottle of Karo.
36 posted on 09/02/2009 4:20:09 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA

It’s the tune. It’s SO pop, and SO trashy, and SO predictable. Not predictable in a nice way, like Mozart or Bach . . . .


37 posted on 09/02/2009 4:32:12 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson