Posted on 11/13/2009 5:37:11 AM PST by marshmallow
The Greek Orthodox Church is urging Christians across Europe to unite in an appeal against a ban on crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.
The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ruled last week that the presence of crucifixes violated a child's right to freedom of religion.
Greece's Orthodox Church fears the Italian case will set a precedent.
It has called an emergency Holy Synod meeting for next week to devise an action plan.
Although the Greek Orthodox Church has been at odds with Roman Catholicism for 1,000 years, the judicial threat to Christian symbols has acted as a unifying force.
The European Court of Human Rights found that the compulsory display of crucifixes violated parents' rights to educate their children as they saw fit and restricted the right of children to believe or not to believe.
'Worthy symbols'
The head of the Greek Church, Archbishop Ieronymos, shares Catholic complaints that the court is ignoring the role of Christianity in forming Europe's identity.
It is not only minorities that have rights but majorities as well, said the archbishop.
One of his subordinates, Bishop Nicholas from central Greece, lamented that at this rate youngsters will not have any worthy symbols at all to inspire and protect them.
Football and pop idols are very poor substitutes, he said.
The Greek Church has ostensibly intervened in this case in response to an appeal by a Greek mother whose son is studying in Italy.
But without doubt it is concerned that its omnipotence in Greece is under threa
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
What we have is a new Evil Empire emerging out of Brussels.
If the EU gets everyone to agree and sign their global warming treaty it will be world communism on steroids.
Not to worry though- Our Blessed Mother's Immaculate heart will triumph!
Probably none will have the courage to do so but any one has the moral authority.
Answer the question directly. Exactly none of them have the authority. If anyone has the moral authority, then show me how you Alex will put a crucifix in every classroom in the nearest public school. Let us see the plan.
No one can sign up to obey injust laws. Italians should ignore the "court", and if their government yields to the court, they should disobey their government.
It is one thing to say offhandedly, but let us have the method by which Alex would pull this off.
This is the kind of stuff that has been going on for quite some time now. Serbia, for instance, is being forced by our brainchild, the EU, to make provisions for any ethnic group larger than 15% of the local population to have their own language and alphabet in official use and administration! Do you realize what kind of a problem this is going to cause, not to talk about the cost? Of course, if Serbia refuses, her application for the EU will be trashed.
Now, only 2 out of 27 member countries, and a handful of Italian mayors, so far have raised their voices in opposition to the measure regarding crucifixes. Two coteries, and a handful of mayors, count exactly zilch.
Why only two countries? Because they are pretty much exceptions to the rule. Poland is not a great immigrant Mecca (I mean, there are no lines in front of Polish embassies of people wanting to move there), and neither is Greece. Greeks are extremely xenophobic except when it comes to Serbs, and they are pretty much ethnically homogeneous, like the Poles. The rest of the EU is a chock-full of immigrants.
A few years back, Germany was arm twisted by Washington to change its blood-based citizenship law to one based on birthright. As soon as they did, Germany gained 17 million Muslim "Germans" overnight! You think Germans liked that? No, but that's the nature of the beast called the EU we created there.
AS far as crucifixes are concerned, their place is not in public schools under these circumstances. Just as France banned Muslim veils (butkhas?) in public schools on the same premise, crucifixes will have to go. Italy, Poland and Greece have no leg to stand on. Three voices against 24.
And one more thing: freedom of religion means being guaranteed that you can worship any god in any temple, not that you can display your religious symbols in publicly funded schools.
Relax ,dear broter,you're reading into this far more than what I posted .I never said you were against this,did I?
Perhaps you need to take a break away from FR?
Personally ,I find myself realizing that prayer is more important than places like FR because this place can become a crutch at times and detour me from where I believe Our Blessed Lord wants me to be.
I do appreciate your zeal though ,dear friend, and have learned much from you.
I wish you a Blessed Evening!
That is one problem. How would we like the horned god on one side of the Crucifix and Shiva on the other? And who's going to pay for the purchase, upkeep and maintenance of them? If I go and create my own religion, as L. Ron Hubbard did, does my religion's symbol go up on the wall, even if I am the only one following it?
AS far as crucifixes are concerned, their place is not in public schools under these circumstances. Just as France banned Muslim veils (butkhas?) in public schools on the same premise, crucifixes will have to go. Italy, Poland and Greece have no leg to stand on. Three voices against 24.
The only way to have them there is to change the law so that they are mandated there. Simple, but not easy. Well, gentlemen of the holy protest: what is your plan in the United States to put crucifixes throughout a single public school. Pick one, any one. Take pictures and post them here and I will apologize in any method that you prefer. But until then, this talk of sedition and protest and revolt is back room tavern at best. Maybe more like sophomore political debate at a junior college.
Exactly my point, Mark. A voice of reason!
Well, gentlemen of the holy protest: what is your plan in the United States to put crucifixes throughout a single public school. Pick one, any one...But until then, this talk of sedition and protest and revolt is back room tavern at best. Maybe more like sophomore political debate at a junior college
Amen to that Mark.
I am sorry. I am looking for a job, which means little projects popping up that I cannot postpone.
When I have more than 30 sec to respond I will respond.
If you need a good C/C++ programmer, hire me.
Till then, keep your dynamite plentiful and your aces to your chest.
Alex, good luck in your job search. I hope you find something soon. All the best.
“I am sorry. I am looking for a job, which means little projects popping up that I cannot postpone.””
I will include you in my prayers ,dear brother.I had this happen to me earlier this year and it was the first time in 25 years, I was without work for almost 4 months.It deepened my faith in many ways and I spent many hours at Eucharistic Adoration praying for others.This kept me very peaceful through this trial I was facing and Our Lord provided for me and my family through it all.Do not ever despair through this trial ,work will come to you soon.
Here is 2 daily prayers that helped me...
God, our Father, I turn to you seeking your divine help and guidance as I look for suitable employment.
I need your wisdom to guide my footsteps along the right path, and to lead me to find the proper things to say and do in this quest. I wish to use the gifts and talents you have given me, but I need the opportunity to do so with gainful employment.
Do not abandon me, dear Father, in this search, but rather grant me this favor I seek so that I may return to you with praise and thanksgiving for your gracious assistance.
Grant this through Christ, our Lord.
Amen
Prayer to Saint Joseph for employment
http://www.catholictradition.org/Saints/sj-card.htm
Thank you both. This prayer is exactly how I feel about it.
The topic so far has been: what is religious freedom. Specifically, does it include the freedom to preach in a respectful non-disruptive manner in a public place.
I believe, the answer is unequivocal yes. Therefore, a placement of a crucifix (or any other religious symbol) in a public place, for example, in a school run in a non-sectarian way, — for example, a taxpayer supported school known to us in America as a public school, — is a right so long as it is non-disruptive.
Two aspects are germane to the question of possible disruption: — has a deliberative process lead to it? and, — is the symbol otherwise customary and inherently inoffensive?
The first has to be looked from the subsidiarity point of view. The school is operated in a certain way, the parents are one input and the principal is another input. They are a unit completely capable of figuring out if a symbol is appropriate. Usually, — at least, hopefully, — the process has a democratic component. If the majority of the parents prefer one particular symbol, that is a potent factor for that symbol. Unless the principal has a solid reason to overrule the majoritarian decision: for example, the symbol is blasphemous or calls for violence - -the principal should go with the majority. In a predominantly Catholic environment, a crucifix is placed, in predominantly Protestant Christian a naked cross, and in predominantly Muslim — an Islamic symbol would be just as appropriate.
The offensiveness of the symbol is to be seen in the local context as well. If it is otherwise customary it is already proven to be inoffensive. Such is a cross in a Christian community, a Star of David in a Jewish community and so on. If two symbols are juxtaposed in an absurd cacophonous way (Christ next to Shiva) then the less common symbol has to give way.
In short, freedom of religion means that the local community allows for the dominant religious symbols routinely, and for non-dominant symbols on an exceptional basis. The minority groups are free to form a minority-dominant enclave and enjoy the dominance of their religion in that enclave.
This is how religious freedom was understood for centuries, in the Roman Empire or Muslim Caliphate in their better days, in medieval Europe and in the United States, and till recently everywhere in the formerly free West. We lost that clarity thanks to the ACLU militant litigants. They should be rolled back.
Obviously, religious freedom suffers when immigration is blind to this most critical aspect of the immigrant’s identity, his religion. If a nation values religious freedom, that nation should give preference to the immigrants of the dominant religious confession and especially avoid confessions that are known disruptors of peace, such as the Muslim and the Atheists.
You then asked how the above program can be realized in America. My answer is threefold. First, whether a principle of justice is valid is not controverted by the difficulty of achieving it in practice. Christian communities lived under Roman and Islamic persecution for centuries, under Atheist persecution for nearly a century; slavery was the law of the land for centuries as well. That polytheist or atheist empires denied religious freedom, or slaveholder societies denied economic freedoms, does not make religious freedom a false principle or slavery a right principle. What we need is patience and clarity of thought, and the right side wins in the end.
Second, the countries in immediate view are Italy, Poland, Greece and Cyprus, that are already confessionally solid. They had crucifixes and icons for centuries; it took a foreign power to deny them their freedom. That battle is easy to win, and we see how it is being won: the Church takes leadership position, and the population, encouraged by their civil leaders engage in civil disobedience. Either the EU will back down, or these countries leave the EU. The worst that can happen is that the EU will lose its moral authority and will be seen as a foreign oppressor. That will not last.
In the US the situation is a bit different as we are being brainswashed into thinking that multi-confessional diversity is a virtue. I think that the likely progress of the battle in this country will be that every time ACLU knocks down a Christian monument someone erects a tall cross on his property. Children already defy the system by publicly praying in public schools (what a pun!). Teachers often join them. This, again, is civil disobedience. The difference with healthier countires in Europe is that we have the American insitutions of government working against us. I think civil disobedience will be productive in this country as well. We may not see crucifixes in public school any time soon. But we shall see them more and more often. One day, the damb will break. Note, too, that the system is crumbling down from the other end: the maintenance of the public school system is fiscally untenable. Perhaps the public education system in America will simply — poof! — collapse.
Rejoice.
I agree with this point. A large percentage of America’s problems today are caused by the existence of government provided education. The lack of required religious and moral eduction not to mention the other harms caused by union control make public education a danger to our children and our country. It must be eliminated quickly. As a side matter this would entirely eliminate the controversy in this thread.
Schools are not public "places." They are public institutions intended for learning. Parks are public places for people to do public things.
Usually, — at least, hopefully, — the process has a democratic component. If the majority of the parents prefer one particular symbol, that is a potent factor for that symbol
That's not what democracy means. Democracy means it is everyone's world, not just majority's.
In a predominantly Catholic environment, a crucifix is placed, in predominantly Protestant Christian a naked cross, and in predominantly Muslim — an Islamic symbol would be just as appropriate.
You are calling for ghettoizing of America, in addition to calling for sedition. I am not sure where you are coming from or what you are thinking, Alex.
If two symbols are juxtaposed in an absurd cacophonous way (Christ next to Shiva) then the less common symbol has to give way.
So much for the freedom of religion. What you are advocating is a system of exclusion on rleiigous gorunds. Ye, when the law of the land says there is freedom of religion, that means each individual is free to preach and believe what he or she wants; it doesn't say minority's rights are abrogated, Alex, but you are advocating abrogation of individual rights in the name of a local majority. That's just unAmerican!
The offensiveness of the symbol is to be seen in the local context as well.
Tell you what: why don't you run for office on that agenda in 2010 Good luck.
In short, freedom of religion means that the local community allows for the dominant religious symbols routinely, and for non-dominant symbols on an exceptional basis. The minority groups are free to form a minority-dominant enclave and enjoy the dominance of their religion in that enclave.
I can't believe you are saying this. This is not how this country works. This country is about individual rights. That's what makes it so great. No one has more rights because he or she is majority.
Besides, majority is a relative term. It depends how you define the borders of a community. The whole ting is absurd.
If a nation values religious freedom, that nation should give preference to the immigrants of the dominant religious confession and especially avoid confessions that are known disruptors of peace, such as the Muslim and the Atheists.
Well, this country does not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, or religion, and that is not something only the ACLU came up with. What you are advertising is contrary to the law of this land.
Second, the countries in immediate view are Italy, Poland, Greece and Cyprus, that are already confessionally solid. They had crucifixes and icons for centuries; it took a foreign power to deny them their freedom.
They are free to leave the EU. They should have thought of these things when they decided to join the EU. Thye know what the EU constitution says.
Besides, it's not "Italy" but not even a handful of (if I recall correctly, two) Italian mayors!
I think you need a reality check, Alex. Seriously. First the Vatican will do no such thing as to call for civil disobedience. Second, only 6% of registered Catholics actually attend Sunday Mass every week. This is not the age of strong Church influence, but rather a minimalist age.
In the US the situation is a bit different as we are being brainswashed into thinking that multi-confessional diversity is a virtue.
That may be so, but the people accepted it, or–if you wish–were brainwashed to believe it.
You don't have to wait for anyone to knock down a Christian monument, you can decorate your yard and home with a cross or crosses if you so desire.
Children already defy the system by publicly praying in public schools (what a pun!).
Hypocrites. Their own God tells them to pray in pirvate.
The difference with healthier countries in Europe is that we have the American institutions of government working against us.
Public prayer has no place in public schools. It is Pharisaical. No one should have to listen to you pray.
Since when does the government have more influence on children that the parents? Watch out for the log in your eye!
besides, blaming government is silly. There is no autonomous government. Our governments are elected. They tell us what they want to do and we elect them to do it!
We elect the Congress to represent our point of view. If it doesn't we should not re-elect the same politicians! But we do!
If we elect bad people to govern safeguard our values, then we have no one to blame but us.
Publicly supplied education is secular education. All secular education teaches evil. Therefore all public education is evil. Evil must be destroyed. By the way, sedition is legal in the US.
And some people are nuts. Nuts should be locked up.
By the way, sedition is legal in the US.
Maybe in your world. But when you decide to visit reality, Read 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000), and 18 U.S.C.A. § 2385 (2000) for a different conclusion.
Fortunately they have been. In public schools.
Anybody been successfully prosecuted under those laws or are they dead letters like the Logan Act.
No, probably because no one really tried seriously to overthrow the government or incite rebellion lately.
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