Posted on 11/24/2009 9:02:14 AM PST by Patrick Madrid
Well Osama does not know it, but there is one Philip Jenkins of Penn State University, home of legendary football coach, Joe “Papa Joe” Paterno,who says the Christian faith is growing bigtime in the global south.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3416
LOL..right, religious division there have nothing to do with it?
I have kinfolks there, you can try that again.
it plays both ways there...despite the current lull btw
For those who don’t care what their spouse or children believe, marrying outside the faith isn’t important. The problems come when your beliefs are important enough to want to pass them on.
At a down point in my Catholic belief, I married an equally weak protestant. He followed my journey back to the Catholic Church and we were able to pass the faith to the next generation. I was lucky.
Others have not been so lucky, the mixed marriages in our families have produced a mix of agnostics and weak protestants in the next generations. Actually they’re a lot like their parents. I’m the only one of 4 siblings who has Catholic offspring.
I am a cradle Catholic, and married an agnostic that agreed to raise our kids Catholic. I took the St. Monica approach with him, praying a lot and exposing him to the faith gradually, and eventually, he started to come around. He entered the Church in 2005, is in the Knights of Columbus, and like many converts, at times, thinks he’s more Catholic than the Pope. LOL! My brother, on the otherhand, had a very expensive Catholic school education, married a Catholic in a Catholic church, never set foot in a church afterwards and just divorced his wife of 28 years and is already engaged to a Lutheran woman 20 years his junior.
This really illustrates why Evangelicals should never think of the RCC and it's adherents as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We may be allies in fights over social policy but we should never con ourselves into thinking that we are viewed as equals.
Evangelicals don't have this problem. If my Baptist children marry a Presbyterian I wouldn't think twice about it. We are united by our faith. It's clear that RC's think themselves "superior" and the rest of us Bible believing Christians as "defective".
“This really illustrates why Evangelicals should never think of the RCC and it's adherents as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.”
That's sort of sad. We think of you as brothers and sisters in Christ. As separated brethren, but brethren nonetheless.
But when we say that we are separated brethren, it isn't our intention to prescribe the relationship as it should be, but rather to describe it as it is. The fact is that we believe some different things about God, Jesus, the Church, etc. than non-Catholics, especially Protestants. Our faith is not the same as yours. What we each believe overlaps considerably, but there are some big differences.
And why would you deny this? We Catholics are bashed every day here at Free Republic for our distinctive beliefs to which non-Catholics object, with which they disagree. There are "Christians" here who go on about “RC edifices” and “RC rubber dictionaries [or some similar garbage as that].” There are "Christians" who have denigrated the bathroom habits of our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary. There are "Christians" here who lie about Pope Pius XII, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI. There are folks here who falsely accuse Pope Benedict of being a Nazi, or at least a former Nazi.
These people allege to be Christians, and devout ones at that. From my perspective, I see no Christian charity in them whatsoever, and thus wonder whether maybe they're crypto-Muslims or something. But they attest to belong to non-Catholic Christian ecclesial assemblies, so I'll take their word for it, I guess.
But, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD I WANT MY SONS TO EVEN ASSOCIATE WITH SUCH FOLKS or their children, no less marry them?
“It's clear that RC’s think themselves ‘superior’ and the rest of us Bible believing Christians as ‘defective.’”
We Catholics certainly believe that non-Catholic Christian belief is missing important elements, and therefore the belief is defective. But not people. Our separated brethren are not defective, except to note that they are, like us, all hobbled by the effects of Original Sin.
But more deeply, we Catholics also believe that indifferentism - the belief that all belief systems (or at least all Christian belief systems) are equally valid - is wrong, in fact, a heresy. Yes, we actually stand up and say that we believe that Catholic Faith is truer, closer to the objective reality than any other faith.
If you're a Baptist, aren't you a Baptist because you think that how the Baptists think about God, Jesus and the rest of it, is truer, closer to the objective reality than say, the Presbyterians? Or the Catholics?
Otherwise, why be a Baptist?
For us, because we believe that Catholic Faith holds the full deposit of faith given by Jesus to the Apostles, to fall away from Catholic Faith is to lose something more precious than life. Why would I want my sons to marry someone who might steal them away from the most precious gift they have, the full salvific faith of Jesus Christ?
sitetest
Talks cheap, when it comes right down to it you would not want your children to marry an Evangelical Christian. It's really no different than saying I don't want my child to marry someone of a different race.
We Catholics are bashed every day here at Free Republic for our distinctive beliefs to which non-Catholics object, with which they disagree.
The "I'm a victim" routine is silly. The discussions do get heated and things get said that would not be said in person, so what. I've never seen signs of prejudice against RC's in everyday life. Born Again Christians face a lot more criticism and I really don't hear any of us "crying about it".
There are "Christians" here who go on about “RC edifices” and “RC rubber dictionaries [or some similar garbage as that].” There are "Christians" who have denigrated the bathroom habits of our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary. There are "Christians" here who lie about Pope Pius XII, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI. There are folks here who falsely accuse Pope Benedict of being a Nazi, or at least a former Nazi.
I've seen my share of these threads and participated in many of them. If you want to go over each topic I would be happy to do that with you.
These people allege to be Christians, and devout ones at that. From my perspective, I see no Christian charity in them whatsoever,...
I would agree these heated discussions do get extreme at times, but I'm sure you've seen your RC "bigot brigade" in action as well.
we Catholics also believe that indifferentism - the belief that all belief systems (or at least all Christian belief systems) are equally valid - is wrong, in fact, a heresy. Yes, we actually stand up and say that we believe that Catholic Faith is truer, closer to the objective reality than any other faith.
We can get in a discussion about objective reality, but what's the point. In the end you will refer to your church and it's tradition and I will refer to Scripture. IOW, we will just go in circles. The truth is most RC's who posted would not want someone to marry outside your church. You view Christians who don't submit to your hierarchy as less and you believe you have a monopoly on truth (objective reality).
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“Talks cheap, when it comes right down to it you would not want your children to marry an Evangelical Christian.”
Absolutely right. Especially if she were anything like the folks who call themselves evangelical Christians around here. The horror.
“It's really no different than saying I don't want my child to marry someone of a different race.”
Nah, not at all. Religion isn't like race at all.
Would you be happy for your child to marry a satanist? Or even a Hindu? What if your child started showing signs of abandoning faith in Christ to become a Hindu?
Now of course, non-Catholic Christians aren't as far from Catholicism as Hindus, but the reason why we're Catholic is because we believe that Catholic faith is true. Truer than Baptist or Presbyterian faith. So why would we want our children to give up what is better for that which is lesser?
“The ‘I'm a victim’ routine is silly.”
I'm merely pointing out that it is many non-Catholics who view these differences so vehemently that they're willing to lie about our Church, our Faith and our hierarchs. It's a little hypocritical to run around gibbering one’s head off about “RC edifices” or how Pope Benedict is actually a Nazi and then complain that we Catholics don't want our children to marry your children. LOL.
“If you want to go over each topic I would be happy to do that with you.”
Again, you miss the point. If I believe that Catholic faith is worth holding, and I see non-Catholic “Christians” saying this sort of stuff about my Catholic faith, WHY WOULD I WANT MY CHILDREN TO MARRY ONE OF YOU??
“We can get in a discussion about objective reality, but what's the point.”
The point isn't what specifically I believe about objective reality or what specifically you believe about it.
The point is that we DIFFER about what's objectively true.
And that's why I'm a Catholic and you're not. And why you're a Baptist and I'm not. We DIFFER. We can agree to disagree. And it certainly isn't necessary to be nasty about it. And we can still be friends.
But we DIFFER on some points of religious belief, belief about God, about Jesus Christ, about salvation, about the Church, that are pretty important. At least to me.
And to a lot of the non-Catholics around here, else they're acting pretty nasty and ugly over stuff that they DON'T think is very important, which would be an even stronger indictment of them than if they're being nasty and ugly over stuff they do think is important.
“You view Christians who don't submit to your hierarchy as less and you believe you have a monopoly on truth (objective reality).”
We don't view non-Catholic Christians as less than us. We believe that their beliefs are in some places incorrect. Don't you believe the same about us? We don't believe that we have a monopoly on truth. We believe that all Christian religions have some share in the truth of Jesus Christ. What we believe is that the fullness of faith is found only in the Catholic Church. Don't you believe just the opposite, that the Catholic Church does NOT have the fullness of faith?
“The truth is most RC’s who posted would not want someone to marry outside your church.”
Do you have any kids? If your son or daughter came home with a nice young Catholic girl or boy, who was very devout, very dedicated to her or his faith, and they had that marriage look in their eyes, what would you think? How would you feel about that? What if the young lady or gentleman stated calmly but firmly that as a Catholic, all children would have to be baptized Catholic, raised Catholic, and preferably sent to Catholic school. That there would be no room in the home for any faith other than the Catholic faith.
Because Catholicism is a whole life commitment and that's what's required of us.
Would you like that? Would you be happy knowing that your grandchildren would be taught to believe that the pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals when he universally and definitively defines a teaching? Would you be happy knowing that your grandchildren would be taught to believe that the elements of the Eucharist, the bread and wine, cease to exist at the moment of the Consecration and become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ? Would you be happy knowing that your grandchildren would be taught to believe in, and to go to, auricular confession to a priest, to believe and practice that the priest would then absolve them, in the person of Christ, of their sins? Would you be happy knowing that your children would be taught to believe that after dying in a state of grace (and thus, heavenbound), if one is not free from the attachments to venial sin that he must suffer the pains of Purgatory?
How happy would you be if you thought that your son or daughter might, in order to win his bride / her groom, enter into the Catholic Church and accept all these teachings and practices?
None of that would give you any pause? None of that would make you unhappy? At all?
Do you believe that being a Baptist is important to getting to Heaven or not? If you do, wouldn't you feel distressed if your child abandoned that faith?
sitetest
This (Jesuit-educated) Southern Baptist says not necessarily; remember, though, our churches have considerable autonomy and we believe in Priesthood of all Believers, so you are dealing with a completely different mindset than the Catholic Church.
“This (Jesuit-educated) Southern Baptist says not necessarily; remember, though, our churches have considerable autonomy and we believe in Priesthood of all Believers, so you are dealing with a completely different mindset than the Catholic Church.”
I understand. And thus, the differences between Baptist and some other denominational choices may not be sufficient to get worked up over.
But we Catholics DO believe in a sacerdotal priesthood. What Baptist would be happy to see a son or daughter accept the ministrations of our priests in the confessional? What Baptist would be happy to see his son or daughter believe that at the words of the Consecration, the bread and wine cease to exist and become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ? What Baptist would be happy to see his son or daughter pray the Rosary, with one Our Father to every 10 Hail Marys?
Are you sure you guys want your children marrying us Catholics??
;-)
sitetest
;-)
A fair question, and one that I would probably need to refer to my wife, who was a Catholic until she married me. :-)
“A fair question, and one that I would probably need to refer to my wife, who was a Catholic until she married me. :-)”
And for a serious and devout Catholic, that sentence is one of our deepest, darkest fears. We believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. I would sooner lose a limb than for one of my children to leave the Church of Jesus Christ.
sitetest
Thinking about your question for a few more moments, and a bit more seriously, I don’t think that I would get all that worked up about it. Incidentally, though, if I were a Catholic, I believe it is sound advice to ensure that your child marries only a Catholic.
Having spent much of my formative years in the company of Jesuits, I don’t have much of a problem with the basic doctrine of the Catholic Church—after all, bottom line, we all believe in Jesus. I tend to think the Catholic Church takes some unnecessary detours and frolics on the road to salvation (which I think has the potential to lose some people along the way), but I think that, in the end, we’ll all end up in the same place.
I would prefer, obviously, that my child follow what I see as the straight and narrow, but if they choose Catholicism, I don’t see that as a damnable offense. This, perhaps, explains my willingness to marry a Catholic.
Your views toward our distinctive beliefs and practices seem to be significantly less hostile than other non-Catholic posters here. Perhaps that's why I don't see you running around ranting about “RC edifices” and claiming that the pope is a Nazi. LOL.
In some sense, your attitude is laudable. It's certainly a darned bit more civil than many of the more theologically-exclusive non-Catholics around here. But if you were a Catholic with a like attitude toward non-Catholic religions, you would be indifferentist, and that is a sin. In fact, indifferentism is a heresy.
“... but I think that, in the end, we’ll all end up in the same place.”
And that's a key difference. A serious and devout Catholic rightly is concerned about that outcome should a child fall away from the Faith.
sitetest
No
If your son or daughter came home with a nice young Catholic girl or boy, who was very devout, very dedicated to her or his faith, and they had that marriage look in their eyes, what would you think?
I have two boys.
I trust the Lord. Jesus will put us where He wants us. If the girl is very devout and believes THE GOSPEL I'm fine. If she is devout but doesn't know THE GOSPEL I'm fine. In the first case she's a Christian and I trust things will work out. In the latter case she hasn't been told what it is to be a Christian just RC and I'll pray that Jesus has placed my son there to witness.
My older son has dated girls of different races, religion and churches. Some have come to church with us, some haven't. In the end I have to have faith that the Holy Spirit will direct them where they should go.
Would you be happy for your child to marry a satanist? Or even a Hindu? What if your child started showing signs of abandoning faith in Christ to become a Hindu?
Any of these would be distressing and I would be praying for the Lord to intervene. Interesting that you would draw satanism into it.
As far as the abandoning the faith stuff we don't believe the Holy Spirit jumps in and out of believers. If they truly believe THE GOSPEL they will end up being planted in a Christian environment.
Truer than Baptist or Presbyterian faith. So why would we want our children to give up what is better for that which is lesser?
Thank you for your honesty. How can a lesser be an equal?
What if the young lady or gentleman stated calmly but firmly that as a Catholic, all children would have to be baptized Catholic, raised Catholic, and preferably sent to Catholic school. That there would be no room in the home for any faith other than the Catholic faith.
I really wouldn't sweat it. I don't think you can coerce faith. The "sacraments" that the RCC does don't have any more value than the ordinances that are followed in Evangelical churches. The grandchildren would see Grampa reading his Bible and ask questions sooner or later. The Lord would decide if they are His and where to plant them.
I've gone through this. My wife was RC. We went to her church for awhile. I started going to mine, she joined me and she never looked back. My sons both attended RC schools (in my area they are better than public schools and Baptists are a distinct minority). Both boys have become Christians and pretty good at separating truth from fiction.
You've said this much better than I thank you.
Yes. We've come full circle--autonomy of the church and Preisthood of all Believers accounts for this very significant difference in worldview.
I'm headed home now. Cheers, and happy Thanksgiving.
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