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Can Catholics Be Christians?
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock

I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.

Answer:

Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.

Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."

None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?

Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).

In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?

What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)

My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.

For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.

Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.

For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.

Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.

We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.

Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.

I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.

I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; asininequestion; bigot; bigotry; catholic; christian; chrsitian; demolitionderby; gamecockbravosierra; ignoranceisbliss; opc; presbyterian; reformed
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To: Iscool
.In fact, I have yet to see one of these tubs with a statue of Jesus in it...Not a single one...

Oh, well if YOU haven't seen one, they simply CAN'T exist.

251 posted on 12/08/2009 5:20:16 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

No, I use different words to pray, but they are always directed to my creator, not to my Mother, Father, Uncle Bob, Mary, Peter or anyone else who is not part of the Godhead.

What’s wrong with going straight to the One who made us, and paid a dear price for our souls?

Ed


252 posted on 12/08/2009 5:21:14 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Sir_Ed
No, I use different words to pray...

That violates Christ's commandment. Or are you only literal in places?

What’s wrong with going straight to the One who made us, and paid a dear price for our souls?

Absolutely nothing. Thus, you never ask anyone to pray for you, correct?

253 posted on 12/08/2009 5:24:22 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Theo
And I thank God for His Reformation of His Church, to correct all the heresies smuggled in during the previous centuries of biblical illiteracy.

Problem with that is that we see the results of that played out in hundreds, if not thousands of competing denominations, many of which espouse doctrine that contradict each other. All of them claim Biblical support.

It's confusion. Is God the author of confusion?

254 posted on 12/08/2009 5:25:12 PM PST by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal is in Iraq.)
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To: raygunfan
These people WALKED AND TALKED WITH THE APOSTLES, AND THEIR RIGHTFUL SUCCESSORS, and aligned with Rome on all matters in dispute....showing no inclination toward sola scriptura (those that leaned that way were those who came up with the heresies the papacy had to put down)

Irenaeus
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."

Cyril of Jerusalem
"This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures."

Gregory of Nyssa
"The generality of men still fluctuate in their opinions about this, which are as erroneous as they are numerous. As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations. But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings."

These are just a few...There's many early church Fathers who would disagree with you...You'll notice there is not one mention of oral tradition, except from the gnostics...

255 posted on 12/08/2009 5:27:20 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Sir_Ed; Pyro7480

>>If God could have chosen one born and made them sinless He wouldn’t have needed Jesus’ sacrifice<<

Are you saying God couldn’t?
God is limitless. He can do anything.


256 posted on 12/08/2009 5:31:14 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: bonfire

Sometimes this gets silly.

Those who think Christianity is a kind of system of thought will, I suppose have difficulty understanding that especially in personal relationships, the same word, phrase or clause can be used to mean different things depending on the person saying it or them and the person to whom it or they are said.

To listen to some folks, I should repent for ever saying to my daughter, “You are the most wonderful girl in the world!” because I don’t really know that to be true. Somewhere there is a girl who may be more wonderful than my daughter, so I should have said that.

If PapaBenXVI really thought Mary was savior in the same way that he thinks Jesus is savior, I wonder why he would ask her to pray to God for some kind of manifestation of the Son. If he thought she was savior, why not ask her to show her face and comfort the Church and the rest? Why bother with God and the Son and so forth?

The reasonable conclusion is that the term savior is used of Mary and Jesus equivocally.

(And they call US legalistic!)


257 posted on 12/08/2009 5:31:31 PM PST by Mad Dawg
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To: Iscool

you ignored my post that notes THERE WAS NO BIBLE IN THE FIRST CENTURY, or second, or third....i can post equally, in fact, more, showing the church, along with sacred tradition and eventually, the whole of the bible were on equal footing.

so, you are left again, with my original point, during the time of no bible, and only the apotles and their successors were there, WHAT ENTITY WAS IN CHARGE?????? it was the ‘pillar and foundation of the truth’, the visible church. and again, you miss the point, the fathers of the church, studied the scriptures directly from the sources i just mentioned and all all were catholics, subjecting themselves to the roman pontiff, sacred tradition and the church....


258 posted on 12/08/2009 5:32:13 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: Iscool
None of that is Scripture. Why do you quote it?

"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."

St. Irenaeus speaks of an oral gospel later written down. In much the same way, his oral teachings are available to us now because he wrote them down. In the absence of a Roman-era Dictaphone, we will only know of oral traditions because they are written down.

If you are opposed to using the Traditions of the Church, you really ought not be quoting the writings of Sts. Irenaeus or Cyril or Gregory, or any of the other fathers of the Catholic Church.

259 posted on 12/08/2009 5:33:32 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: don-o
"It's confusion. Is God the author of confusion?"...

Interesting question...here's my take...G-d gave us the the knowledge we need in the Torah and the other early Jewish writings...those writings, misinterpreted by man in the Messianic fervor of the Roman years of occupation, have led to a totally man-based confusion of the Word that continues to this day...magritte (ducking)
260 posted on 12/08/2009 5:33:42 PM PST by magritte ("I will give this monkey for lunch to Mr Sata,")
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7

Who else would God let us nag with our scriptural references if not for our Roman Catholic friends? :O)


261 posted on 12/08/2009 5:34:35 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: don-o
Problem with that is that we see the results of that played out in hundreds, if not thousands of competing denominations...

Say "thirty thousand." It drives some folks absolutely crazy...

262 posted on 12/08/2009 5:34:45 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Sir_Ed

Now you are not paying attention to the dogma itself but only to a part of it.

It is by the grace of Christ and the “merits” of His passion that Mary is made sinless. Christ is just as necessary to protect her from sin BEFORE she committed one as He is to protect me from sin after I have committed many.

You gotta read the actual relevant parts of the offishul declaration. Your argument was, in fact, one of the reasons the Dogma was not declared for so long. But then people began to think about how the effects and benefits of the “Work of Christ” are applied in time, and the problem melted away.


263 posted on 12/08/2009 5:35:47 PM PST by Mad Dawg
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To: HarleyD

LOL!

Hey! Mysterious are the ways of Divine Providence! All that time memorizing citations and stuff, and he graciously provides us!

God is merciful — and economical!


264 posted on 12/08/2009 5:38:18 PM PST by Mad Dawg
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To: Petronski

No, He didn’t, as He gave Adam free will and Adam chose to sin.

God won’t violate His own precepts. Adam sinned, and we are his progeny, all sinners needing salvation, even Mary.

Ed


265 posted on 12/08/2009 5:43:26 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: BenKenobi

Hell is a LOT warmer......oh well...it;s your soul. How long have you been a Catholic?? Didn;t they teach you about Holy Days of OBLIGATION??


266 posted on 12/08/2009 5:45:21 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion,,,,,,the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Here we see a glorious work of Christian iconography:

Salus Populi Romani, meaning Protectress (literally "Health") of the Roman People is the title given in the 19th century to the Byzantine icon of the Madonna and Child, reputed to date to Early Christian times, in the Borghese or Pauline Chapel of the Santa Maria Maggiore Basilica in Rome.

wikilink

When the "salus" in "salus populi romani" is translated as "savior" rather than "health," some protestant folks absolutely get the vapors.

The point of the title "salus populi roman" is to supplant pointless worship of a pagan goddess by that name.

No, don't look to some moldy pagan goddess to watch over you, turn instead to the Mother of God, Blessed Mary Ever Virgin.

267 posted on 12/08/2009 5:45:29 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

I ask people who can hear me to pray for me, by letter, email, phone or personal conversation, but I don’t close my eyes and ask my sister 50 miles away to pray for me, and I don’t close my eyes and ask Benjamin Franklin or Silas to pray for me, as neither my 50 miles away sister, nor Ben Franklin or Silas can hear me.

Ed


268 posted on 12/08/2009 5:48:03 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Petronski

I’ve seen lists - it’s been a while since I went looking, as my participation on the Religion forum is rare. Yet this one attracted my attention.

SSDD.

For anyone who cares, I am an Orthodox Christian (convert) with a growing love and respect for my Catholic brethern and sistren.

The Protty fulminations just deja vu the hell out of me. Been there. Done all that and worse, big time. Got humble, honest and desperate. Prayed like a dying man and looked at the facts.

The “solas” fell pretty easily, once I got some historical perspective. The claims of Rome vs Constantinople vs Canterbury were a bit stickier. I made the choice I made.

fwiw


269 posted on 12/08/2009 5:49:45 PM PST by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal is in Iraq.)
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To: netmilsmom

God won’t violate His own precepts. He told Adam the penalty for sin was death, He’s not going to magically say some are sinners, some aren’t, else Christ’s death wouldn’t have been necessary.

Ed


270 posted on 12/08/2009 5:50:18 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Gamecock
Mother Catholic, father Protestant here. Personally don't see a big difference in the belief system. The big difference was always political and rather shallow if you ask me.

My reason for becoming a Protestant was simply a practical one. I learned about Christ much more on my own. I had too much difficulty learning about Christ running through all of the Catholic bureaucracy and hierarchy.

I believe both Protestants and Catholics are Christians.

271 posted on 12/08/2009 5:50:26 PM PST by Earthdweller (Harvard won the election again...so what's the problem.......?)
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To: Petronski; Iscool

If we’re going to use the vision analogy, myopia might be more apposite than blindness.

That is because the near sighted cannot make fine distinctions in the things they see at any distance. And the distinctions ranging from latria/hyper-dulia/dulia are not VERY subtle, but they are somewhat subtle.

Tomorrow I will go to the doctor to ask for his help in throwing off whatever is troubling me. I will also ask God for help, and I may ask for the intercession of St. Blaise, as I have already asked for the intercession of some of my friends. Which of these requests would the Protestants consider to be worship, I wonder.

I would know that I meant quite a different thing when I spoke to God from what I meant when I spoke to my friends, here or in heaven, or to the doctor. There might not be a very clear visible difference, though I don’t kneel much either to docs or to my friends here. I don’t kneel all that much to Dominic, and have never knelt to St. Blaise.

But it’s all foolishness. Unless one’s intellectual vision is capable of a certain fineness of resolution, a certain delicacy of distinction, what Catholics say will seem to have no concrete referent.

I remember when I used to fence with the foil. At first I couldn’t see what was going on in the matches I watched. After a while I “got my eye in,” and could see and understand the course of the duel much more accurately. It’s not surprising that those whose world system which is virtually binary would not be prepared to perceive shading and gradations.


272 posted on 12/08/2009 5:50:58 PM PST by Mad Dawg
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To: Mad Dawg

Her ya go:

Pope Benedict XVI in front of a 19th century shrine in Pompeii, near Naples, southern Italy, Sunday, 19 Oct. 2008. Benedict XVI traveled to a shrine near the ruins of ancient Pompeii on Sunday and prayed for all people in pain or difficulty, saying faith can promote personal and social recovery. (AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)
. Here is the indulgenced text (written by Bl. Bartolo Longo), to recite at noon:

PETITION TO OUR LADY OF THE ROSARY OF POMPEII

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

I.
O august Queen of victories, Virgin who reignest in paradise, whose mighty name causes heaven to rejoice and hell to tremble, o glorious Queen of the most holy Rosary, we, thy happy children chosen by thy goodness in this century to build thee a temple at Pompeii, kneeling at thy feet on this solemn day to commemorate thy latest triumphs on the spot where idols and demons were formerly worshipped, we pour out with tears the feelings of our hearts and with a filial confidence lay before thee our miseries.

From that throne of mercy where thou sittest as Queen, o Mary, turn down thy pitiful eyes on us, on our families, on Italy, on Europe, and the whole Church; take into pity the afflictions which overwhelm us and the cares which embitter our life. Thou seest, o Mother, how many dangers of soul and body, how many calamities and afflictions press upon us.

O Mother, keep back the arm of justice of thy indignant Son, and conquer by thy mercy the hearts of sinners, since they are our brethren and thy children, redeemed through the blood of our sweet Jesus and through the wounds of thy most tender heart pierced with the sword. Show thyself to all in this day, as thou art, the Queen of peace and mercy.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

II.
It is but too true that we, although thy children, are the first who crucify Jesus in our hearts and wound anew thy heart by our sins. We confess it, we deserve the severest chastisements; yet remember how thou didst receive, on the top of Golgotha, the last drops of that divine blood, and the testament of our dying Redeemer. And this testament of a God, sealed with the blood of a Man-God, appointed thee our Mother, the Mother of sinners. Thus, as our Mother, thou art our Advocate and our Hope. To thee, amidst sighs, do we lift up our hands, crying for mercy!

Have pity, good mother, have pity on us, on our souls, on our families, on our relations, on our friends, on our departed brethren, above all, on our enemies, and on so many who claim the name of Christians, yet wound the loving heart of thy Son. Pity, o Mother, we now implore thee for pity on the erring nations, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they may repair repentant to thy heart. Be merciful to all, o Mother of mercy.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

III.
What does it cost thee, o Mary, to hear us? What does it cost thee to save us? Did not Jesus entrust to thy hands all the treasures of his graces and mercies? Thou sittest as Queen at the right hand of thy Son, crowned with immortal glory, above all the choirs of angels. Thou extendest thy dominion as far as the heavens expand, the earth and all the creatures that people it are subject to thee. Thy power even reaches hell; and thou alone, o Mary, canst rescue us from the devil’s grasp. Thou art almighty by grace, and therefore thou canst save us. Now if you sayest thou wilIest not help us because we are ungrateful children and unworthy of thy protection, tell us at least to whom shall we have recourse in order to be released from so many evils? Oh! No, thy maternal heart will never bear to see the ruin of thy children. The divine Child we behold on thy knees, the mystical crown we admire in thy hand, both inspire us with hope that we will be heard. And full of confidence in thee, we throw ourselves at thy feet, we trust ourselves as feeble children into the arms of the tenderest amongst mothers and today, this very day, we expect from thee the graces we are longing for.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us ask Mary for her blessing

We now ask of thee, o Queen, a last favor which thou canst not refuse on this solemn day. Grant to all of us thy constant love and in a special manner thy maternal blessing. No, we will not leave thy feet today nor cease clasping thy knees till thou hast blessed us. Bless now, o Mary, the sovereign Pontiff: to the first laurels of thy crown, to the ancient trophies of the Rosary, whence thou art called Queen of victories, add also this one, o Mother, grant triumph to religion and peace to mankind. Bless our bishop, the priests and particularly those who promote the honor of thy Sanctuary; bless finally all those who are associated to thy new temple of Pompeii and who practice and spread devotion to thy most holy rosary .

O blessed rosary of Mary, sweet chain which unites us to God, bond of love, which connects us with the angels, tower of safety against the assaults of hell, sure harbor in the universal shipwreck, never more shall we part with thee; thou shall be our comfort in the hour of agony: to thee the last kiss of our life; and the last word of our dying lips shall be thy sweet name, o Queen of the Rosary of Valle di Pompei. Mother dear, only refuge of sinners, supreme comforter of the afflicted, blessed be thy name, now and forever, on earth and in heaven. Amen.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


273 posted on 12/08/2009 5:52:53 PM PST by bonfire
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To: Petronski

Hey wait.
The only time I’ve seen the word “Salus” was in this phrase.

“From the cross comes salvation” = A cruce salus

Why would it be translated as “health” when it is “salvation” in the phrase above?


274 posted on 12/08/2009 5:53:12 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: Mad Dawg

My best to you with regard to the doctor, Mad Dawg.

I was quite sick for the longest of times with a horrible lung infection and constant coughing and lungs burning.

I don’t think it was swine flu, as I didn’t have a fever or nausea, but it took forever and a day to go away.

I’ll pray for ya’, as will the others here, I’m sure.

Take care,

Ed


275 posted on 12/08/2009 5:55:50 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Sir_Ed

>>He’s not going to magically say some are sinners, some aren’t<<

Not some, one.
The one who shared His Son’s DNA.

You said “couldn’t”.
Why “couldn’t” He?

Because YOU believe so? God can do anything He wants.
Don’t underestimate him to suit your fancy.


276 posted on 12/08/2009 5:56:29 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: Alamo-Girl

I feel quite similarly.

Though I confess . . . enjoying sometimes tweaking both super dearly beloved and the merely dearly beloved.

LOL.


277 posted on 12/08/2009 6:00:29 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: netmilsmom

I’m not, it just is un-Biblical and runs contrary to the plain teaching of the Bible.

Ed


278 posted on 12/08/2009 6:01:16 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Alamo-Girl

I am, however,

keenly aware that a number of the more rabid types hereon seem to be unable to fathom disagreeing stridently and even fiercely with someone re theological etc. matters

WITHOUT

hating the person.

At some point, that has to be between them and The Lord.

He knows my heart better than even I do. Thankfully, He knows THE WORK

HE

HAS DONE IN IT.


279 posted on 12/08/2009 6:01:55 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: TASMANIANRED; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg

Would you label or rate that post full of

a 1 white Mary Hanky of sweetness or

a 2 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness or

a 3 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness or

a 4 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness or

a 5 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness

post?


280 posted on 12/08/2009 6:05:27 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
"...keenly aware that a number of the more rabid types hereon seem to be unable to fathom disagreeing stridently and even fiercely with someone re theological etc. matters.."

In the end...the hate is not about Christ, it's about much more practical matters...like man's personal power.

281 posted on 12/08/2009 6:05:46 PM PST by Earthdweller (Harvard won the election again...so what's the problem.......?)
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To: magisterium

That church — Christ’s church — is the Christian church, not the Catholic church. It is my church, and your church. As believers and followers of Christ, we can both rightly claim to be members of the body of Christ.

Like I said, lineage doesn’t make a difference to me, as we both trace the origin of our faith to the same point. We divided, but our origins and lineage are the same to the point of division. One can dispute, I suppose, whether the division was a heresy or a divinely inspired separation ... but I would claim the latter.

I cannot believe in the infallibility of any human being or human organization, as it conflicts with the established doctrine of original sin. Humans are inherently fallible, and no Biblical passage gives me reason to believe that any infallibility rests in a man or a hierarchy. Such would be putting faith in a man or group of men rather than the Almighty.

SnakeDoc


282 posted on 12/08/2009 6:07:09 PM PST by SnakeDoctor ("Talk low, talk slow, and don't say too much." -- John Wayne)
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To: bonfire; Petronski; NYer; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Mad Dawg; vladimir998; MarkBsnr; Salvation; ...
Bonfire, this is not addressed to you (but I am leaving you on here as a courtesy since I am quoting part of your post)

“The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome, intercede to God for us so that the face of his blessed Son may be shown to our Pope and comfort the Church with the light of the resurrection.”

Interesting story behind that expression "Savior of the people of Rome."

It actually applies to an icon that is located at Santa Maria Maggiore (Salus Populi Romani):

The story behind it (and, as with so many things back then, I can't 100% vouch for what is real and what is legend) is that this icon was written by St. Luke

"The origin of "Luke images" is unknown, but a charming legend has prevailed through the ages. It reveals that after the Crucifixion, when Our Lady moved to the home of St. John, she took with her a few personal belongings--among which was a table built by the Redeemer in the workshop of St. Joseph. When pious virgins of Jerusalem prevailed upon St. Luke to paint a portrait of the Mother of God, it was the top of this table that was used to memorialize her image. While applying his brush and paints, St. Luke listened carefully as the Mother of Jesus spoke of the life of her son, facts which the Evangelist later recorded in his Gospel.

"Legend also tells us that the painting remained in and around Jerusalem until it was discovered by St. Helena in the fourth century. Together with other sacred relics, the painting was transported to Constantinople where her son, Emperor Constantine the Great, erected a church for its enthronement."

(Joan Carroll Cruz, Miraculous Images of Our Lady, 1993, p. 137f.)

Cruz continues recounting of this story with how the relic was named:

During the pontificate of St. Gregory the Great (590-604) a plague viciously attacked the people of Rome, killing entire families. The pontiff fervently prayed to the Blessed Mother. During the Easter festivals he carried her image in solemn procession. Arriving at Hadrian's Mausoleum (now called San Angelo), an angelic choir was heard singing the joyful Resurrection hymn:

Regina coeli, laetare, alleluia;
Quia quem meruisti portare, alleluia;
Resurrexit sicut dixit, alleluia.

Without hesitation, the holy Pontiff added:
Ora pro nobis Deum, alleluia.

[Queen of Heaven, rejoice, alleluia; for he whom you did merit to bear, alleluia; has risen as he said, alleluia; pray for us to God, alleluia.]
After the Pontiff spoke these words there appeared above Hadrian's Mausoleum an angel, believed to be St. Michael, who replaced in his scabbard the sword of vengeance which he had held over the city.

Basically, that is how this icon got the name "Salus Populi Romani" and how Hadrian's Mausoleum got the name "Castel Sant'Angelo"

283 posted on 12/08/2009 6:10:58 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: bonfire
I pretty much rest my case. Usually when we pray the Rosary we sing or recite a medieval "antiphon" to Mary, the Salve Regina. In it we call her "our Life, Sweetness, and Hope," Many Dominicans at the end of bedtime prayers not only recite or sing the Salve Regina but the "O Lumen," an antiphon to Dominic which will here give in it's entirety ('cause it's short)
O lumen ecclesiae O light of the Church,
Doctor veritatis Teacher of the truth,
Rosa patientiae Rose of patience,
Ebur castitatis Ivory of chastity,
Aquam sapientiae
Propinasti gratis
You freely dispensed
the water of wisdom.
Praedicator gratiae Preacher of grace,
Nos junge beatis. Unite us with the blessed.
Now, how do I justify such extravagant stuff? First because I know what I'm doing and second because this happens in a context in which the Mass and Other daily prayers which are NOT Marian are, the foundation and principle theme.

I know whom I have believed, and knowing that, I am fine with extravagant praises to Mary and to Dominic.

Now if such devotions were the principle part of someone's piety, I'd be concerned. If PapaBenXVI or anyone else were going daily or even weekly to Pompeii and praying this kind of thing, I'd be concerned.

But I'm not concerned for PapaBen or for myself as I heap piles of florid praise on Mary and on Dominic for all the reasons I said.

And I would say to get a proper view of this amazing service, you too would have to view it in the experiential context of daily office, rosary, and Mass. Otherwise I can quite understand how weirdly repellent it looks. Remember, I am a convert. This stuff used to freak me out too.

284 posted on 12/08/2009 6:18:57 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Gamecock

I have never claimed that non Catholics are lost. However I take exception to the original post and am quite sure the author was never Catholic. Oh and his bit about being allowed to say something from the pulpit at a Catholic funeral? Pure invention.


285 posted on 12/08/2009 6:19:17 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: WestwardHo; Alamo-Girl; airborne; Amityschild; AngieGal; aragorn; auggy; autumnraine; backhoe; ...

I love those images.

Congrats to both of you.

I’m, I like to think, close Friends and Brothers to several of the RC’s hereon. I won’t embarrass them by naming them. I think they know who they are.

And, I occasionally respond warmly to some of the rabid folks who typically throw me only mean-spirited fiercely bitterness dripping bile.

Some of the rabid folks beg for being tweaked . . . their self-righteousness, arrogance, smugness, the theologically degreed and well trained, the pontifically self-important, etc. etc. etc. just beg to be tweaked. And, I confess, I’m frequently happy to oblige.

Have been telling it like it is to spiritual leaders, internationally known evangelists, internationally known prophetic types, etc. for many decades. They rarely seemed to appreciate the feedback either! LOL. Though they did typically eventually get the point when God followed through accordingly.

No point in stopping now.

Some of the rabid folks are boringly predictable. Their buttons are hard-wired to hair-trigger fire-works explosions of puffery.

Some are just soooooooooooooooooooooooo utterly convinced that THEIR pristine, pure, paragonly perfect construction on reality is the ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNLY CORRECT ONE that anything LESS, in their view, is automatically cause for instant and intense frothing at the fingers in response.

I don’t know if those folks are funnier for their super silliness or distressingly pathetic. Perhaps all of the above.

Some are soooooooo mean spirited and fiercely filled with bitterness, bile and multiple thread-stalking vengeance, that I’m having to increasingly write them off as too boring, too beyond the pale or just toooooo off the wall to even think of risking contributing to their finger frothing sins by responding at all.

In any case, the tableu of human variety stirred vigorously with RELIGION hereon . . . is certainly an education in psychology and sociology.

Occasionally one learns some worthwhile things about theology.

LOL.

In terms of Roman Catholics/ Vatican affiliated folks being able to be Christians?

OF COURSE THEY CAN.

I think the gauntlet they have to run to establish and maintain a GOD FOCUSED RELATIONSHIP in that context has to be a lot more troublesome and difficult than in the best Protestant congregations. However, many Protestant congregations are ABOUT as bad on such scores.


286 posted on 12/08/2009 6:20:10 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: markomalley

Awesome historical account. Thank you for including me on the ping.


287 posted on 12/08/2009 6:20:59 PM PST by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone" - Benedict XVI)
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To: Sir_Ed

T’anks, bro in Christ.

Big pain not only in the chest but in a region somewhat south of there, IMHO.


288 posted on 12/08/2009 6:21:16 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Likewise any Christians or nonChristian onlookers on my demonstrations’ account.

LOVE YOU BIG BROTHER.

A big CHRISTmas hug and kiss—uhh—on the neck or cheek,, mind you!

Greet the Brothers with a Holy . . .

anyway . . . you know.

LOL.


289 posted on 12/08/2009 6:22:52 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: markomalley

WHen I lie dying, I want the regina coeli sung. I LOVE the resurrexit/ sicut dixit. I always want to add: So THERE!


290 posted on 12/08/2009 6:23:06 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: netmilsmom

The Solas . . . though I’m not a Calvinist . . . are Infinitely more clearly Scriptural than ANY of the Marian stuff! LOL.


291 posted on 12/08/2009 6:24:25 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: netmilsmom

Salus, honor, virtus quoque,
sit et benedictio ...

Salus, like Shalom, is a word rich in nuance. I don’t health is so bad for either word, though I like to keep things simple myself.


292 posted on 12/08/2009 6:25:20 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Petronski
FACTS like these, drove ME crazy, or perhaps drove me sane

Sub tuum praesidium or, in English, Under your protection is the oldest anthem to the Blessed Virgin Mary from the see of Alexandria in the third century.

Liturgically, the anthem is among those recited as the "final antiphon" at the office of compline. The Latin is presented below, followed by the English.

''Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, :''Sancta Dei Genetrix. :''Nostras deprecationes ne despicias :''in necessitatibus nostris, :''sed a periculis cunctis:''libera nos semper, :''Virgo gloriosa et benedicta. Amen.

We fly to thy patronage, :O holy Mother of God; :despise not our petitions:in our necessities, :but deliver us always:from all dangers, :O glorious and blessed Virgin. :Amen.

From here

293 posted on 12/08/2009 6:26:34 PM PST by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal is in Iraq.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Now Bro, I can’t let even you get away Scott free with such abject leaps of logic.

tsk tsk.


294 posted on 12/08/2009 6:26:42 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Be good, stay safe, D00d.

I think i got the crud you had, was it last year. Lung stuff that just holds on and won’t turn me loose.

Prayers and bed for me. A HOLY kiss is a good thing.


295 posted on 12/08/2009 6:27:50 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Lorica

What? You think ALL the fireworks should be limited to July?

What a boring notion! LOL.


296 posted on 12/08/2009 6:28:35 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: sitetest

Soooooooooooooo oh expert on

“Dear”

how did you mean it not too many posts ago, to me?


297 posted on 12/08/2009 6:31:19 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool

INDEED.

Horrifically true.


298 posted on 12/08/2009 6:33:31 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: magisterium

I found nothing offensive in what you wrote. Of course, I asked the question.

In general, I expect people to defend their own faith. And I would think that people believe that their faith is correct.

In fact, in this discussion, I felt like people were too quick to be disturbed, although I understood it. But if I read a title “Can Presbyterians be Christians”, I wouldn’t think “Oh no, someone thinks I’m not a Christian”, I would say “Oh, I can see how someone of another belief system feels about my belief system”.

So instead of being upset, I would welcome the opportunity to see how other denominations think about my faith, rather than get upset about what they believe. After all, I don’t believe that other denomination has their beliefs correct, so why would I think their beliefs about my denomination would be correct?

So I asked my questions, because I wanted to see how some of those participating in this discussion would address a different faith from their faith’s perspective. You did a wonderful job. As did others who responded to me, I read them all even though I didn’t answer them.

I hope those who participated will have read these responses, and realised that talking about other faiths from your perspective will of necessity sound somewhat judgmental, or something like that, and try to take it in the spirit of ecumenicalism, rather than as an attack on their faith.


299 posted on 12/08/2009 6:36:22 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: MWS

YOUR

BALANCED, SANE, REALISTIC, SEEMINGLY QUITE ACCURATE PERSPECTIVE

IS SUPER IMPRESSIVE ON SUCH THREADS.

You clearly have an extra measure of God’s Grace to be able to so convincingly own such a perspective.

Blessings to you and yours this CHRISTmas season.


300 posted on 12/08/2009 6:36:37 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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