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Can Catholics Be Christians?
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock

I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.

Answer:

Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.

Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."

None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?

Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).

In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?

What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)

My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.

For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.

Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.

For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.

Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.

We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.

Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.

I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.

I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; asininequestion; bigot; bigotry; catholic; christian; chrsitian; demolitionderby; gamecockbravosierra; ignoranceisbliss; opc; presbyterian; reformed
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To: Sir_Ed

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


301 posted on 12/08/2009 6:38:25 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: MWS

LOL


302 posted on 12/08/2009 6:38:56 PM PST by Happyinmygarden (Yes, actually, I have pretty much seen and heard it all before...)
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To: SnakeDoctor

. . . . AND THE ENCRUSTATIONS AND FOSSILIZATIONS

OF CENTURIES OF HUMAN

!!!!TRADITION!!!!

OF COURSE IT WAS. I agree thoroughly.


303 posted on 12/08/2009 6:39:28 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Thank you so much... you have no idea how much that made my day. :)


304 posted on 12/08/2009 6:41:41 PM PST by MWS
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To: Earthdweller

I might well agree but I’d love for you to elaborate, first.


305 posted on 12/08/2009 6:46:15 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mad Dawg

The Elderberry syrup . . . SAMBUCUS is not cheap . . . by any means . . . but upping the dosage a bit more than directions has helped me a lot.

Some folks have taken to putting oil of oregano from the stopper bottle on their chests etc. And inhaling steaming water with onions in it.

I think the oil of oregano is antibacterial and the elderberry antiviral.

Prayers . . . has been a long haul. Left me far short for the hospice bowl sale as well as my own stuff to sell.

At least I managed to teach all but to classes though many with lowered energy. Sigh.

Prayers, hugs . . .


306 posted on 12/08/2009 6:50:56 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mad Dawg

Darnit, I’m sorry to hear that. I’ll keep prayin for you.

It’s been a hard year for a lot of Christians that I know, financial, spiritual, emotional...it’s been hard for a lot of us.

I don’t know if God is testing us, strengthening us, disciplining us or if the times are just turning dark with the lessened light of Christ in the world.

Take care,

Ed


307 posted on 12/08/2009 6:57:48 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Mad Dawg
then you MUST be able to show PRECISELY where a word or a phrase was used in a dual sense, which is what "equivocal" implies

You equivocated on the source of goodness.

If every good work is grace, does that mean that when Hindu feeds the poor he is acting out of grace or that it is not a good work?

Grace. In this instance a common grace God gives to restrain man from utter depravity.

If there were a dishonest man at your church who claimed to be saved but was notoriously dishonest in his dealings would you buy a used car from him rather than from an atheist with a reputation for square dealing?

If he was a notorious sinner who was plagued with continual sin in a specific area then it is the Churches responsibility to counsel the sinner to repent of that particular sin. Whatever secular dealings I might have with him is really irrelevant to his faith and would depend upon many variables including my own knowledge of his secular vocation.

For the rest, every good gift comes from God. The only thing any human can contribute without God's involvement is sin. That is Catholic teaching.

Understood. But we've come to the chicken or the egg question in our discussion.

308 posted on 12/08/2009 6:59:39 PM PST by the_conscience (I'm a bigot: Against Jihadists and those who support despotism of any kind.)
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To: Mad Dawg

I love the music from the Vatican.

I’m listening to Christmas music right now, a Gregorian chant, utterly beautiful “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent.”

See ya’,

Ed


309 posted on 12/08/2009 7:01:23 PM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Petronski
I'm feeling the Christmas spirit and thus generous with my biscuits

Ah yes, the man-made error sola fide makes its appearance.

What's that?

a tinge of man-made TULIP sauce to further poison the palate?

What's TULIP sauce?

Repent.

Repent of what?

310 posted on 12/08/2009 7:05:03 PM PST by the_conscience (I'm a bigot: Against Jihadists and those who support despotism of any kind.)
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To: Ann Archy

Yes, they did teach us about Holy days of obligation.

However, I am not an American.

The only Holy days of Obligation here are January first and Christmas.


311 posted on 12/08/2009 7:07:07 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: Quix

Now tell me how you really feel!
Ha! Love it!

Interesting to observe how each side defends it’s position.
Interesting to observe how each participant interpretes what they have been taught.
I love the process of people communicating the things they feel passionate about.

Jesus asked His disciples, “Who do people say that I am?”
How we answer that question is the only thing that matters.


312 posted on 12/08/2009 7:08:30 PM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the god would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Thank you for your gracious reply and understanding of the POV which formed the basis of my answers. Yours is a tone to which we can all look as a benchmark, and from which many of us often fall short.

May God bless you during these Advent and Christmas seasons.


313 posted on 12/08/2009 7:22:09 PM PST by magisterium
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To: Gamecock; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...

“My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth.”

Well there ya go, the problem. A false to fact calumny.


314 posted on 12/08/2009 7:24:56 PM PST by narses ('in an odd way this is cheering news!'.)
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To: WestwardHo

WELL PUT.

THANKS.


315 posted on 12/08/2009 7:32:14 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Alex Murphy

I have those shoes! They are NOT comfortable. And not made to wear while holding s squirming two year old in the back of the church (which did not involve any Mary worship)

But dang, they look good on. Which is the only reason why I wear shoes..........


316 posted on 12/08/2009 7:44:00 PM PST by mockingbyrd (Sarah speaks for me!)
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To: Gamecock
RE: Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ......If you are in heaven how can you be dead???

What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross?

"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23: 43)...

317 posted on 12/08/2009 7:48:06 PM PST by notaliberal (Palin supporter)
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To: Gamecock; All
I'm a Roman Catholic - and my understanding is that the Church has clarified its teaching that wherever Christ operates in the world, that is the Church operating. At the same time, we believe the Magisterium of the Church has a special charism that is gratuitous and unearned by anyone with a title, which gives those who hold special office protection and guidance, by the Holy Spirit, to preserve and teach the truth of the Lord's word and that Church will never be defeated by our Enemy. Lest we forget, the Enemy however is our common enemy, the Prince of Darkness -- that deceiver who is winning converts everyday, and turning our beloved society into a culture of death and vacuity. When push comes to shove, all Christians are fighting this war together, brother and sister, and in the end, we will have victory. This is Advent season after all: a time for patient waiting for that victory which our faith knows will come, just as we know Christmas will appear on the horizon with its bells and trees and bowed-wrapped presents, announcing the Good News of our Redemption.

God bless.
318 posted on 12/08/2009 7:48:13 PM PST by bdeaner
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To: bonfire
“The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome, intercede to God for us so that the face of his blessed Son may be shown to our Pope and comfort the Church with the light of the resurrection.”

So Mary is the intercessor between Jesus and God and the Savior of the church of Rome...

But when talking to those on the outside, they'll that's not what it means...

319 posted on 12/08/2009 7:51:27 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: SnakeDoctor
You're right: humans are inherently fallible, except when they are fulfilling their role as guardians and faithful teachers of the Faith, and doing functioning in those capacities under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This particular type of infallibility, we recognize, is highly restricted in its nature to matters of faith and morals only, and must be employed only with the explicit acknowledgment that the charism is being invoked. Thus, the pope or an ecumenical council might declare that everyone's favorite color should be blue, and I could respond: "Whatever. That's your opinion. I'm not bound by that. You're certainly wrong in at least my case, since I adamantly maintain my own favorite color to be green, and I will not be persuaded to change. You overstep your authority."

However, if the same authorities declare, say, that Mary is the Mother of God, as in fact happened at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431, then I must give assent, for defining the Faith in such vein is part of their authentic charism, it is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, and is therefore infallible. The individual men who formulated the definition were all sinners, and therefore not infallible at all regarding their personal conduct. But, within the parameters that are needed to be put in place to make sense of Matthew 28:20, John 16:13-15, and the like, these men exercised "infallibility" in authentically interpreting the true doctrine involved. I would, therefore, be required to give my assent of faith to their decision. And I do. So should you. Perhaps you do already, and you can thank the Council of Ephesus for that. Scripture alone done not answer the question very well regarding issues involving "persons," "natures," "essences" and the like, as they pertain to Jesus. Scripture alone is somewhat ambiguous at, at best. As such, it was a legitimate question to figure out: did Mary give birth to God, or only to Jesus' human nature? "Theotokos" is what they came up with to describe how she fit into the equation: she was the "God-bearer." Amen to that!

320 posted on 12/08/2009 7:55:54 PM PST by magisterium
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To: raygunfan
you ignored my post that notes THERE WAS NO BIBLE IN THE FIRST CENTURY, or second, or third....i can post equally, in fact, more, showing the church, along with sacred tradition and eventually, the whole of the bible were on equal footing.

so, you are left again, with my original point, during the time of no bible, and only the apotles and their successors were there, WHAT ENTITY WAS IN CHARGE?????? it was the ‘pillar and foundation of the truth’, the visible church. and again, you miss the point, the fathers of the church, studied the scriptures directly from the sources i just mentioned and all all were catholics, subjecting themselves to the roman pontiff, sacred tradition and the church....

My point is your early church Fathers are telling you that you are wrong...They are telling you that if you can't back up your theology with scripture, you are a gnostic...

In all of Paul's epistles to the church, or in any of the scriptures, nowhere is there any demand, suggestion or even a hint that anyone should subject himself to a Roman Pontiff...

I'd have to do some searching again but there is recorded history that states when your version of religion turned to pagan Rome and Constantine, there was a sizable church split...Many Christians wanted nothing to do with Rome and her Pagans...

321 posted on 12/08/2009 8:14:24 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Petronski
St. Irenaeus speaks of an oral gospel later written down. In much the same way, his oral teachings are available to us now because he wrote them down.

Don't you wish...Irenaus knew the difference between the Holy Inspired words of God put into written scripture and your catechism...A pity you don't know the difference...

322 posted on 12/08/2009 8:19:03 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Mad Dawg
It is by the grace of Christ and the “merits” of His passion that Mary is made sinless. Christ is just as necessary to protect her from sin BEFORE she committed one as He is to protect me from sin after I have committed many.

God does not protect Mary or you from sin...God protects Christians from the rightful result of sin..

323 posted on 12/08/2009 8:23:09 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: don-o

No, God is the author of Truth. And, to be frank, that’s not found in the Roman Catholic Church.

Maranatha.


324 posted on 12/08/2009 8:29:21 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Tomorrow I will go to the doctor to ask for his help in throwing off whatever is troubling me. I will also ask God for help, and I may ask for the intercession of St. Blaise, as I have already asked for the intercession of some of my friends. Which of these requests would the Protestants consider to be worship, I wonder.

I'm actually sure you don't wonder...Asking for intercession is one thing...Getting on your knees and bowing while praying to a statue is another...Asking someone to provide God's Grace to you would be worship...Asking a Saint to find your pet Iguana for you would be worship...And yet you guys always quip that 'we only ask for intercession'...Right, our eyes and ears are lying to us...

325 posted on 12/08/2009 8:33:41 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: the_conscience
I expect such ignorance.

Both sola fide and TULIP are false traditions of men.

Repent and turn to Christ.

326 posted on 12/08/2009 8:47:17 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: bonfire
What does it cost thee, o Mary, to hear us? What does it cost thee to save us? Did not Jesus entrust to thy hands all the treasures of his graces and mercies?

Thou extendest thy dominion as far as the heavens expand, the earth and all the creatures that people it are subject to thee. Thy power even reaches hell; and thou alone, o Mary, canst rescue us from the devil’s grasp. Thou art almighty by grace, and therefore thou canst save us.

And full of confidence in thee, we throw ourselves at thy feet, we trust ourselves as feeble children into the arms of the tenderest amongst mothers and today, this very day, we expect from thee the graces we are longing for.

The pope is worshipping Mary and attributes to her what is only available directly from the God of Creation...

we, thy happy children chosen by thy goodness in this century to build thee a temple at Pompeii, kneeling at thy feet on this solemn day to commemorate thy latest triumphs on the spot where idols and demons were formerly worshipped

And why would anyone want to build a temple on a sight that is inhabited by demons???

327 posted on 12/08/2009 8:49:20 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Irenaus knew the difference between the Holy Inspired words of God put into written scripture and your catechism...

Quite a feat, since I have no catechism.

St. Irenaeus, however, understands all too well the glory of the truth transmitted to us by the Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church.

328 posted on 12/08/2009 8:49:20 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Iscool
The pope is worshipping Mary and attributes to her what is only available directly from the God of Creation...

You ought to give up with the mind-reading already. You're just not any good at it.

329 posted on 12/08/2009 8:50:22 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
Both sola fide and TULIP are false traditions of men.

What are they?

330 posted on 12/08/2009 8:50:42 PM PST by the_conscience (I'm a bigot: Against Jihadists and those who support despotism of any kind.)
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To: sitetest
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

And I do hope if I fail to finish the sentence, you will understand that I do mean it that way.

331 posted on 12/08/2009 8:51:18 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Theo
And, to be frank, that’s not found in the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm pretty sure there's more than one Catholic Church in Rome.

When did you visit Rome?

332 posted on 12/08/2009 8:51:34 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Quix

I’m so shocked—SHOCKED—to see you offer repeated Amens to a thread so full of misunderstood Christianity.


333 posted on 12/08/2009 8:54:14 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: the_conscience

False traditions of men.


334 posted on 12/08/2009 8:58:37 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Quix
Truly, God knows our hearts. He knows us better than we know ourselves. And He loves us anyway.

Praise God!!!

335 posted on 12/08/2009 9:06:01 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Petronski

What are those traditions?


336 posted on 12/08/2009 9:06:04 PM PST by the_conscience (I'm a bigot: Against Jihadists and those who support despotism of any kind.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

PRAISE GOD FOR THAT.

BLESS YOU AND YOURS THIS CHRISTmas season.


337 posted on 12/08/2009 9:08:25 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!


338 posted on 12/08/2009 9:09:06 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix

And may God bless you and your loved ones, also!


339 posted on 12/08/2009 9:10:46 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Mad Dawg

I’m partial to Pepto-Bismol for that region! LOL.


340 posted on 12/08/2009 9:12:32 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: the_conscience
What are those traditions?

Those false traditions of men?

Sola fide and TULIP.

341 posted on 12/08/2009 9:12:38 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

342 posted on 12/08/2009 9:13:25 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

If you notice, attacks increase around all Marion Feast days like clockwork.


343 posted on 12/08/2009 9:13:38 PM PST by murphE ("It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged." - GK Chesterton)
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To: murphE

Yes, and flying monkeys are deprived their food when they are intended to fly.


344 posted on 12/08/2009 9:14:43 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

This is similar to watching a Chihuahua chase his tail.


345 posted on 12/08/2009 9:25:27 PM PST by the_conscience (I'm a bigot: Against Jihadists and those who support despotism of any kind.)
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To: Petronski

In 2002.

And you can quit being coy with me. We both know that your church finds its home in Rome.


346 posted on 12/08/2009 9:30:39 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
We both know that your church finds its home in Rome.

False.

347 posted on 12/08/2009 9:31:48 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: SnakeDoctor
" I simply deny that such guidance is limited to the Catholic heirarchy"

I can't argue with that.

348 posted on 12/08/2009 9:32:20 PM PST by Natural Law (.)
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To: the_conscience
This is similar to watching a Chihuahua chase his tail.

I recommend you stop.

You'll never catch it.

349 posted on 12/08/2009 9:32:27 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: the_conscience
Oh, and of course, I should repeat, I recommend you turn away from the man-made false traditions of sola fide and TULIP.
350 posted on 12/08/2009 9:34:23 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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