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To: Kolokotronis; TeĆ³filo; MarkBsnr
The underlying reality of the liturgy and the temple ceremonies was the worship of God. That’s the same and the manner in which it is done, even the way the priests dress to some extent, bear similarities so far as we know

I don't know if you have seen a Jewish liturgy in a synagogue; it's nothing even close to the Orthodox divine liturgy. As for the Temple, there is no similarity either, Kolo. That would really be stretching it! Jewish Temple worship was pagan in every way.

I really don't know where that Jewish colleague of yours was worshiping but I would be curious to know.

I agree. And no Orthodox Christian would say that Judaism is just a different perception of the same underlying reality as Christianity. I did not understand Theo to be saying that.

I am open to an explanation, but what Teófilo said sounded pretty clear to me – a different perception of the same underlying reality, Kolo.

Indeed they do. Maybe Christ doesn’t leave them out.

I don't know, Kolo, the Gospels are pretty clear that those who don't are the goats. That's what the Church taught for 2,000 years until the age of political correctness. You think the Church could have been wrong all these millennia?

In fact, Christ calls the unbelieving Jews the sons of the devil! Do you think he really didn't mean it? It seems to me the age of all-nclusiveness and ecumenism has changed what the Church thought was clear as a bell for 2,000 years.

Why, didn't the Church even proclaim by an Ecumenical Council (I believe maybe the VI) that Christians were not allowed to choose Jewish doctors? Do you think the Church didn't understand her won scripture? Or that perhaps the the Holy Spirit guiding the Council didn't really mean it?

John 3:8. Like I said, above my pay grade.

Kolo, it is sad but John 3 is as phony as a $3 bill. Read the verses before and after John 3:8 and tell they are in some kind of a sequence. John's Gospel is full of unrelated out of context interpolations that characterize the whole Gospl (i.e. verse 11 starts off in the singular and continues in the plural, and verse 13 is post-ascentional before ascention!). And John 3 stands out as the phoniest, especially vis a vis that anothen pun in verse 3 that could have never happened in Aramaic, never mind that Nicodemus' reaction is strange even in Greek.

63 posted on 12/27/2009 2:05:16 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: kosta50
" I don't know if you have seen a Jewish liturgy in a synagogue;...."

Many, many, many times, Kosta. The Greeks and the Jews here experienced a very similar immigrant experience and we kids, Greek and Jewish, had to go to Greek and Hebrew school after American school got out. All the other kids got to play. We attended their festivals and dances, they ours. Our parents grew up together. They came to our devotions, funerals, weddings, etc and we to theirs. We played basketball at the Jewish Community Center. There were three great "powers" in my town. Nothing happened without their OK... the rabbi, the senior Irish Catholic monsignor and the Greek Priest. The rabbi was just about my grandfather's best friend. I, like all the Greek and even Irish kids, almost grew up at the temple. I'll tell you, Kosta, any of us, to this day, are very comfortable at the temple. When you hear a cantor chant the psalms, don't you think immediately of Great Vespers and Great Week?

I don't know, Kolo, the Gospels are pretty clear that those who don't are the goats. That's what the Church taught for 2,000 years until the age of political correctness. You think the Church could have been wrong all these millennia?

Blessed Augustine taught, who knows:

"How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within! [The Church]?", Kosta. +Peter says:

"Truly I perceive God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him" at Acts 10:34-35. Above our pay grade, Kosta.

"In fact, Christ calls the unbelieving Jews the sons of the devil!"

No doubt the unbelieving Jews were.

"Why, didn't the Church even proclaim by an Ecumenical Council (I believe maybe the VI) that Christians were not allowed to choose Jewish doctors?"

Indeed a council did, the Quinisext not the 6th. We call it Ecumenical. The West doesn't. The purpose of such a restriction, and others, was to prevent conversion to Judaism, which was a real or imagined problem at the time."

"Kolo, it is sad but John 3 is as phony as a $3 bill."

Kosta, +Ignatius of Antioch, John's disciple, apparently didn't think so:

"For though some would have deceived me according to the flesh, yet the Spirit, as being from God, is not deceived. For it knows both whence it comes and whither it goes."

66 posted on 12/27/2009 3:39:02 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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