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Catholic vs. Presbyterian
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

Posted on 01/03/2010 10:30:30 PM PST by Gamecock

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To: Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Diamond; verdadjusticia
I would say "No", God is not able to lie because that would violate His unchanging nature (God is truth) as described in the Bible. If He lied He would cease to be God. Instead, He would be something else, not the God the Bible describes. The same would apply to God ceasing to exist or making a rock He couldn't lift. However, this in no way is a curtailing of God's freedom, which is absolute. When I think of freedom I think of freedom from "what". The only "what" for God would be His own nature, which is defining, so I don't think the issue of freedom would really apply to that.

Just to tie it up rhetorically, since God has "all the power that is" therefore we can see that the ability to lie is not, strictly speaking a "power."

To me, this has important, what, resonances with the whole question of free will and the rest.

As I've said before, SOMETIMES Calvinists and the "irresistible grace" crew appear to be denying freedom, but I'm not sure that's right. When God shows even the slightest hint of His love and glory, it is freedom to affirm, and slavery to reject. Whether and how one can "freely" chose slavery is another question. But similarly, when we feelthy papists insist on "free will" WE are the ones who appear to be put in the position of saying that it's an exercise of freedom to choose fornication over enjoying the Truth.

My latest infatuation is with a very nice but difficult book, very Catholic I have to say, which looks at this question in terms of Nominalism and "Scholastic Realism". The book is by Servais Pinckaers, O.P. (he's Belgian) and it's title is The Sources of Christian Ethics. It's a slog, but an interesting slog.

The relevance is that Pinckaers argues that the "Freedom from what?" idea of freedom comes from Nominalism, and that Nominalism is pretty much the focus of evil in the late medieval (intellectual) world.

He suggests, following Aquinas, that instead the will is directed to "the good" (which is more than moral good) and to be attracted to what is not good is a defect of the will, and therefore a compromise of freedom. Try this:

The ability of free will to choose between various things in conformity with the end ['end' as in 'that for the sake of which', man was created with the 'end' of the vision of God] shows the perfection of freedom; but to choose something not ordered to the end, that is, to sin, evinces a defect of freedom. Therefore the angels, who cannot sin, enjoy greater freedom of choice than do we, who can.
Summa, First Part, question 62, article 8, reply to objection 3
But to make a LONG, LONG argument short, Pinckaers proposes (following Aquinas) that freedom is "Freedom FOR excellence" before it is freedom FROM anything. I would add that it is because we are sinners and everything we see is affected by that, it is quite understandable that our first thought of freedom would be "freedom from." But as we live, pray, think the Gospel, we see that freedom is really freedom TOWARD.

FWIW.

Turning to other news: Go directly to your library and pick up Edward Feser's The Last Superstition for a rollicking good time refuting atheism. The guy is trained as a philosopher and writes like Ann Coulter. It is more fun than you can imagine.

Have a great day.

361 posted on 01/07/2010 5:09:06 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: HarleyD
How does the American Presbyterian Denominations differ from the 318 orders of the Roman Catholic Church? According to the Catholic Church they all have various rules, regulations and traditions. Seems to me the American Presbyterian Denominations is far less complicated.

Your list of the various orders of priests and nuns has nothing at all to do with denominations, whose differences are based on dogma and doctrine. Comparing Catholic religious orders as if their Catholic doctrine was not the same is like suggesting that because the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines or Coast Guard do things differently that one of them was somehow not under the Commander in Chief.

The comparison of discipline to doctrine simply falls flat on its face, although it's nice to see the various orders in one list.

362 posted on 01/07/2010 6:16:58 AM PST by Lorica
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To: Lorica; HarleyD
suggesting that because the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines or Coast Guard do things differently that one of them was somehow not under the Commander in Chief.

Baptists, Presbyterians et al are under one Commander in Chief. Someone we like to call God.

Roman Catholics have added beaurocracy.

363 posted on 01/07/2010 6:23:32 AM PST by Gamecock (We always have reasons for doing what we do.)
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To: Gamecock
Roman Catholics have added beaurocracy.

I'll take bureaucracy over mutiny.

364 posted on 01/07/2010 6:29:15 AM PST by Lorica
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To: Gamecock

Jesus Christ is the head of the Catholic Church.


365 posted on 01/07/2010 6:31:21 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Gamecock
Someone we like to call God.

No matter what you like to call him, Jean Calvin is NOT God.

366 posted on 01/07/2010 6:33:01 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: narses; Diamond
I have no idea. Based on the shoddy research you have been citing I am certain you do not either.

Please be specific on the "shoddy research", it seems you would rather call names than deal with what he writes

367 posted on 01/07/2010 7:33:29 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Petronski

We don’t see Calvin as God.

But I can see your confusion, seeing that you are from a faith group that worships Mary and a host of other idols.


368 posted on 01/07/2010 7:56:38 AM PST by Gamecock (We always have reasons for doing what we do.)
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To: Petronski
No matter what you like to call him, Jean Calvin is NOT God.

They will NEVER understand this. They are actually proud of the statement below:

"Calvinism is the gospel" (Charles Spurgeon)

369 posted on 01/07/2010 8:30:52 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Gamecock
But I can see your confusion, seeing that you are from a faith group that worships Mary and a host of other idols.

That's not true.

I'm Catholic.

370 posted on 01/07/2010 8:36:03 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
Did someone say idol worship?


371 posted on 01/07/2010 8:46:48 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Petronski
That's not true.

Sure it is:

It is walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.
372 posted on 01/07/2010 9:14:17 AM PST by Gamecock (We always have reasons for doing what we do.)
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To: wagglebee

Is the first one Ho CHi Minh? And who are the gentlemen with former Father Calvin?


373 posted on 01/07/2010 9:29:26 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: RnMomof7

LOL, why? Simply look at the replies others have made exposing same. I have no need to repeat what many others have shown here in this thread.


374 posted on 01/07/2010 10:02:58 AM PST by narses ('in an odd way this is cheering news!'.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Yes, the first one is Ho Chi Minh.

The others shown with Calvin are William Farel, Theodore Beza, and John Knox. As an aside, Calvin was NEVER an ordained Catholic priest, his training was as a lawyer.


375 posted on 01/07/2010 10:04:43 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Thanks for the correction on Calvin.


376 posted on 01/07/2010 10:10:21 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Gamecock
It is walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.

Not at all.

What matters is the intent of the individual, and you don't get to decide that.

377 posted on 01/07/2010 11:09:17 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: narses
"Not sure about yours, sadly more sure of mine. :)"

There's a biblical passage about that very thing. ( ^: }

378 posted on 01/07/2010 1:49:10 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: Gamecock

“The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof; and therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.... “

Please provide scriptural warrant for this statement.


379 posted on 01/07/2010 1:51:35 PM PST by Jim Noble (Hu's the communist?)
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To: Jim Noble; Gamecock

That dates from the 18th Century Synod that defined the Westminster Confession. Interesting that he quotes a human defined document from 1700+ years AFTER the Crucifiction as the last and authoritative word on the subject of The Word.


380 posted on 01/07/2010 4:17:16 PM PST by narses ('in an odd way this is cheering news!'.)
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