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Richard Williamson 'Unrepentant' Over Holocaust Denial
The Daily Telegraph (UK) ^ | 2/2/10 | David Wroe

Posted on 02/02/2010 6:44:25 AM PST by marshmallow

Richard Williamson, the Catholic Bishop soon to face trial in Germany on charges of denying the Holocaust, is apparently unrepentant, allegedly telling colleagues recently it was a "huge lie" that six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis.

The notorious English bishop also allegedly told colleagues from his ultraconservative brotherhood that "a completely new world order" had been built on the "fact" that Jews were systematically gassed in concentration camps such as Auschwitz, Treblinka and Sobibor.

Jews, he added, had become "ersatz saviours thanks to the concentration camps," according to a report in German news magazine Der Spiegel.

"The fact is that the six million people who were supposedly gassed represent a huge lie," it is claimed he wrote to fellow members of the Society of St. Pius X.

In a separate email, he is said to have written that "1.3 million deported people" were not gassed in the Treblinka, Majdanek, Belzec and Sobibor concentration camps as historians claim, but were rather transported to the Soviet Union.

Williamson is due to face court in the southern German city of Regensburg on April 16 over allegedly Holocaust-denying remarks he made to Swedish television in January last year.

Denying the Holocaust is a crime in Germany. Williamson was on German soil when he gave the interview, though he claims he never intended his remarks to be broadcast there.

Williamson was given the chance to avoid court by paying a fine of up to 12,000 euros but decided to fight the charges instead.

The Spiegel report also revealed that fellow members of his brotherhood were deeply concerned by his behaviour, but were reluctant to cut him loose because he had laudable qualities. One priest branded him a "ticking time bomb".

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Judaism
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; catholicwhiners
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The head of the brotherhood, Bishop Bernard Fellay, likened Williamson to uranium. "It's dangerous when you have it," he said, while adding one couldn't "simply leave it by the side of the road".

LOL.................

1 posted on 02/02/2010 6:44:25 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
The notorious English bishop also allegedly told colleagues from his ultraconservative brotherhood ...

I smell bias.

2 posted on 02/02/2010 6:49:12 AM PST by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: marshmallow

LOL!

Honestly, though, it makes no sense for him to “repent” if he genuinely believes what he asserts. One would “retract” statements or writings one has come to believe are incorrect, and one would “repent” if one felt a sense of having done wrong. However, it appears neither of these possibilities applies to Mr. Williamson. He seems to believe he is correct.


3 posted on 02/02/2010 6:49:56 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: marshmallow
What an ignoaramus. He, as a Catholic, should know that millions of Catholics were killed during the Holocaust too.

For him to deny it signals that he is void of sound mind and rational thought.

4 posted on 02/02/2010 6:51:37 AM PST by Mengerian
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To: marshmallow

Promote ‘Bishop’ Williamson to be the Archbishop of Tehran, he’ll get along great with those little Jew-hating pricks.

Probably have afternoon tea with Ahmadinnerjacket once a week.


5 posted on 02/02/2010 7:13:21 AM PST by mkjessup (The Shah don't look so bad now eh? But nooo Jimmah said the Ayatollah was a 'godly man', that doofus)
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To: Mengerian

Yes, but the real issue is the totalitarian nature of the German law. While I am sure everyone on this forum thinks this fellow’s belief is false, the German government is now acting as Orwell’s Ministry of Truth and is punishing a man who dissents from the official line set out by the those who control the government.

This is just the sort of thing that the global warming fanatics wanted for their cause. No government should be allowed to have this power - even when we think the government’s position is right.

I think the Germans still haven’t recovered from marinating in National Socialism, Communism, and various other forms of socialism in the 20th Century.


6 posted on 02/02/2010 7:16:02 AM PST by achilles2000 (Shouting "fire" in a burning building is doing everyone a favor...whether they like it or not)
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To: marshmallow

Question to all (and I’m not a denier):

How does anyone really know “how many” were killed?

Did someone actually count to 6 million, or is was this an “estimate”?

I have no doubt “many” were killed, I just wonder if the number wasn’t subject to the same kind of manipulation as the AGW temperature data.


7 posted on 02/02/2010 7:22:31 AM PST by Pessimist (u)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius
Nowhere does he deny the genocide of Catholics or any other group.

Yes he does. He has said bluntly that there was no Holocaust. Period.

He questions the 6 million JEWS figure, and the methods used to mass murder.

He's not really questioning anything. He denies the 6 million Jews figure and denies the existence of gas chambers. He's as convinced of the historical accuracy of his beliefs as most everyone else is convinced to the contrary. He's equally as convinced of the authenticity of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". So it's not really correct to portray him as an inquisitive skeptic. He's taken up a contrary position and is as closed to the idea that millions of Jews perished as everyone else is the idea that the Holocaust never happened.

That's not a sin (unless he knows the truth and is obstinately refusing to accept it) and it certainly doesn't deserve a criminal prosecution but it does raise questions about his judgment and common sense.

9 posted on 02/02/2010 8:10:09 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Pessimist
The Germans, then as now, were meticulous record keepers.

Moreover we know who was missing, and we have seen (and counted) the bodies in the mass graves, and read the ledgers and shipping orders of the cattle cars filled with those the Nazi's wanted dead.

While some records were no doubt lost during the war (things blowing up and burning down and all) there is no doubt among rational human beings that the Nazi's killed several million Jews in the camps designed and built as factories of death.

But if the third Reich killed only three million (a figure unsupported by the evidence by the way), do you suppose that this makes them only HALF as reprehensible, only HALF as evil, or just less competent in their perfidy?

11 posted on 02/02/2010 8:18:21 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: marshmallow

I know that the pope lifted the excommunication, but I was not aware that Williamson is actually recognized as a bishop by the Church.


12 posted on 02/02/2010 8:21:35 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius
There are still leftists in the West who support Stalin and Mao. But I don't think many of them would deny the mass murder under those regimes, instead they try to rationalize it as in some way necessary.

In the case of the Nazis, we have "revisionists" who try to prove that the mass murders never happened. That's the difference.

If someone said to me, "yes, the Nazis killed six million Jews, and it was a good idea", he'd be morally bankrupt, but at least he wouldn't be denying history.

Please give me a citation for "22 million Catholics killed by the Nazis".

14 posted on 02/02/2010 8:26:49 AM PST by Notary Sojac ("Goldman Sachs" is to "US economy" as "lamprey" is to "lake trout")
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius
Do I care?

What does his peripheral connection with those who died in concentration camps have to do with his Holocaust denial?

Germany is around one third Catholic, then and now, so Catholics died on both sides of the war.

But there was no specific animosity towards Catholics in the same way that the Nazis hated and persecuted the Jews, and put forth propaganda justifying their wholesale slaughter and the plans for their eventual elimination through genocide “the final solution” to the “Jewish problem”.

So if the figure was three million instead of six million, does that make the Nazis only HALF as reprehensible, only HALF as evil, or just less competent in their perfidy?

16 posted on 02/02/2010 8:39:13 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius
"The Nazis killed 22 million Catholics"

again, citation please.

19 posted on 02/02/2010 8:45:45 AM PST by Notary Sojac ("Goldman Sachs" is to "US economy" as "lamprey" is to "lake trout")
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To: Pessimist
How does anyone really know “how many” were killed?

Because the German National Socialists, efficient and industrious little buggers one and all, KEPT RECORDS. Those freaks were proud of what they were doing ... at least, as long as they thought they would win.

And they killed 11.5 million people in the death camps.

20 posted on 02/02/2010 8:46:21 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Pius
Where does he say that no one was killed by the nazis?

He doesn't say that. Nobody on this planet says that.

It is a genocide, just like the Mao and Stalin and all the other historical genocides.

That would not be Willaimson's position. He denies that there was genocide directed against the Jews. In his monthly letters written while he was at the SSPX seminary in Winona, MN and which were posted on the web for ages but have since been yanked, he specifically stated that at most, a few thousand Jews perished. Further, he has stated that the figure of 6 million is not simply an erroneous calculation as a result of bad math, poor records, the confusion of war or some other historical quirk but rather an active conspiracy, designed to deliberately mislead and deceive.

He's going far further than saying that historians and governments don't know what they're talking about. He's saying that the whole thing is a lie.

21 posted on 02/02/2010 8:46:31 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius
Crucified? Melodramatic much? Having a case of the vapors?

He did not just “question the numbers” he has denied that it happened and invoked the typical antisemitic conspiracy theory that a “new world order” was built upon what he considers a lie.

By my question I indicated that it was not at all about the numbers; but the Nazi's actions and intent.

Their intent was the elimination of the Jewish people, and their actions were to build camps for the murder of an entire people, along with anyone else they found undesirable or inconvenient.

So really it doesn't matter to me, other than as a historic footnote, just how many they killed. Evil is not judged on a sliding scale of how ACCOMPLISHED you are in your evil deeds, but in your intent and actions.

The actions and the intent of the Nazis was to eliminate the Jewish people through whole scale factories of murder.

That is evil.

Defending it is evil.

Making excuses for it is evil.

Denying that it happened to further your own antisemitism is ludicrous, ignorant, and evil.

23 posted on 02/02/2010 8:51:27 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: Pessimist
You wrote:

“How does anyone really know “how many” were killed? Did someone actually count to 6 million, or is was this an “estimate”?”

The 6 million number is an estimate but it is not pulled out of thin air. It is largely based on the following: missing Jews from post war census figures as compared to 1930s figures; Nazi records compiled in the camps, ghettos, railway deportation figures and so on. In recent years there have been some surprises: The number of Jews estimated to have been murdered in Auschwitz has been cut in half at least. This was done by the official and internationally recognized body of scholars established to study Auschwitz by the way. At the same time a French priest has done herculian work in discovering, mapping and excavating little or unknown mass graves in the Ukraine where Jews were murdered and largely forgotten for the past 60 years. Thus, we have every reason to believe the overall number of Jews killed are correct, but that the number of deaths in the camps may have been less than previously thought. More Jews may have been killed in mass shootings in the Ukraine, Russia and Beylorussia than previously thought.

Jean-Claude Pressac, who was a recognized authority on the Holocaust and no denier by any stretch of the imagination almost seemed to set the number lower each time he came out with a book or major article about it. I think his final total - before he died in 2003 - was something like 600,000 to 750,000 dead at Auschwitz. That’s a lot different than the 1.5 to 3 million number that many people claimed in the late 1940s. I think we’re going to see more revision downward for the camp totals and more revision upward for the murdered in the forrests totals.

24 posted on 02/02/2010 8:53:57 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Pius
Look - Williamson, Ernst Zundel, David Irving and the rest have every right to say whatever they want.

Expressing an opinion should never be a crime and the German government is totally in the wrong about that.

However, Williamson's views are disgusting nonetheless.

25 posted on 02/02/2010 8:55:33 AM PST by Notary Sojac ("Goldman Sachs" is to "US economy" as "lamprey" is to "lake trout")
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To: Pius
Do you deny the genocide of Catholics by the Nazis?

You need to quit playing word games.

There was a specific plan developed by the Nazis to eliminate Jews. Do you deny that?

Yes, millions of Catholics died in the war but it was as a result of opposing the Nazi efforts in various spheres of the war, including their bid to exterminate Jews. Poland is a Catholic country, for instance, so naturally many Catholics perished there because the Germans invaded Poland, although not because it was Catholic.

I know of no specific plan hatched by the Third Reich which said that Catholics should be specifically eliminated.

Do you?

26 posted on 02/02/2010 8:57:46 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: allmendream

“But if the third Reich killed only three million (a figure unsupported by the evidence by the way), do you suppose that this makes them only HALF as reprehensible, only HALF as evil, or just less competent in their perfidy?”

None of the above. I guess what interests me about this is that it’s another one of those things we’re not even allowed to question.


28 posted on 02/02/2010 9:01:29 AM PST by Pessimist (u)
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To: vladimir998

Thanks for your reply!

Very informative!


29 posted on 02/02/2010 9:02:04 AM PST by Pessimist (u)
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To: marshmallow; ArrogantBustard; Mad Dawg; markomalley; MarkBsnr; Petronski; NYer; Salvation; ...

I don’t know about anyone else, but I find it somewhat flattering that SSPX has seen fit to send an apologist to the FR Religion Forum. However, I find it revolting that this apologist seems to be a Holocaust denier.

I have had the privilege of knowing a few Holocaust survivors. I have heard first hand of the horrors they endured, the lost family members, the ongoing nightmares, the sense of guilt and hopelessness — NOBODY could make this up. To deny the enormity and truly evil nature of the Holocaust is not just insulting, it is an absurdity which requires the complete suspension of the senses.


30 posted on 02/02/2010 9:03:47 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Pius
Catholics were killed as a result of the war, so were Protestants and the Orthodox, all three in vast numbers.

And Catholic clergy who spoke out against Nazism were sent to the camps, as were non-Catholic opponents of the regime.

There is no historical record that I am aware of which indicates that the Nazis intended to exterminate Catholics en masse from the Reich. Hitler was, of course, determined to eradicate political opposition from the Catholic Church, which is a different matter from "genocide".

Again, show me a citation on the 22 million number.

31 posted on 02/02/2010 9:06:38 AM PST by Notary Sojac ("Goldman Sachs" is to "US economy" as "lamprey" is to "lake trout")
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To: Pius; marshmallow; ArrogantBustard; Mad Dawg; markomalley; MarkBsnr; Petronski; NYer; Salvation; ...
Looks to me like you have personal animosity (you are prejudiced) toward the SSPX and bishop Willianson.

No, I would say that the animosity is directed toward Holocaust deniers in general, be they American anti-Semites, Iranian mullahs, or borderline schismatics presuming to speak for the Church.

32 posted on 02/02/2010 9:09:13 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Darn it, sometimes FR zots too soon. I was just starting to have a little fun with this maggot.


33 posted on 02/02/2010 9:09:36 AM PST by Notary Sojac ("Goldman Sachs" is to "US economy" as "lamprey" is to "lake trout")
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Looks to me like you have personal animosity (you are prejudiced) toward the SSPX and bishop Willianson.

I have a personal animosity towards Holocaust-denying scumbags.

34 posted on 02/02/2010 9:10:35 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Notary Sojac

I knew it was just a matter of time, there is a big difference between some troll saying that Obama isn’t so bad and an anti-Semitic Holocaust denier.


35 posted on 02/02/2010 9:12:13 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: marshmallow
Although this fuels the anti-Catholics who salivate at every potential misdeed of a Catholic Richard Williamson is NOT a Bishop recognized by or in communion with the Catholic Church.On June 30, 1988 Williamson and the three other priests were consecrated bishop by Archbishop Lefebvre. On July 1, 1988 Cardinal Gantin issued a declaration stating that Lefebvre, Williamson, and the three other newly-ordained bishops "have incurred ipso facto the excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the Apostolic See".

On July 2, 1988, Pope John Paul II issued the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei, in which he reaffirmed the excommunication, and described the consecration as an act of "disobedience to the Roman pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the Church", and that "such disobedience — which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy — constitutes a schismatic act".

Williamson and his supporters denied the validity of the excommunication, saying that the consecrations were necessary due to a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church.

36 posted on 02/02/2010 9:13:06 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: wagglebee
Looks to me like you have personal animosity (you are prejudiced) toward the SSPX and bishop Willianson.

LOL.........looks to me like SSPX have their own issues with Williamson.

Didn't Fellay hit him with a gag order last year?

Whatever happened to that?

37 posted on 02/02/2010 9:15:29 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: wagglebee

His episcopal consecration, like that of the other three bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre, is “valid, but illicit.” In other words, he is a real bishop by virtue of the fact that Archbishop Lefebvre, undoubtedly consecrated validly himself, consecrated him among the four. However, he did so without the pope’s approval, and their consecration was therefore illicit, or “unlawful.” In the event that any or all of these bishops return to Rome, they will not have to be “reconsecrated.” They will, however, have to make some sort of encompassing profession of the Catholic Faith, insofar as they were part of a movement that has self-identified as being outside of Rome’s jurisdiction and has declared the (authentic) Catholic Church to have accreted to itself various beliefs not found in, or substantiated by, apostolic Tradition.


38 posted on 02/02/2010 9:15:44 AM PST by magisterium
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To: magisterium

I knew there was some description given, I just didn’t remember what it was.


39 posted on 02/02/2010 9:19:21 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: marshmallow

Somebody needs a come to Papa followed by a come to Jesus conversation.


40 posted on 02/02/2010 9:23:22 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: marshmallow

I admire many of the beliefs of SSPX. But at the same time, I recognize that what they did was schismatic. Whatever their protestations, the fact remains that the only real difference between Lefebvre and Luther were their lists of grievances.


41 posted on 02/02/2010 9:23:34 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Notary Sojac; Pius
Again, show me a citation on the 22 million number.

He can't. There were somewhere between 35 million and 50 million civilian deaths in all of World War 2. The bulk of them were in China and the USSR, neither of which I'd categorize as majority Catholic countries. Of the Catholic countries conquered by the Nazis, France suffered about 250,000 civilian dead and Poland about 2.5 million.

42 posted on 02/02/2010 9:24:03 AM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Pessimist
Oh you are most certainly ALLOWED to question it, here in the USA where we have freedom of speech.

But it is a truism that is almost axiomatic that almost everyone who DOES “question” the figure has a rather sinister motivation for doing so.

Mel Gibson defended his fathers Holocaust denial, and many hoped that there was not an accompanying antisemitism that went along with it; but like ducks and water - the two just seem to go together.

Also, one is most certainly allowed to CHALLENGE the figures with contrary historic evidence, it is just that the evidence of what the Nazis did, and what they INTENDED to do are an absolutely backed by ironclad historic evidence; while the “scholarship” of those who challenge the scale, intent of, and even the existence of the Holocaust tends towards outlandish conspiracy theories to accompany their brain dead racism.

43 posted on 02/02/2010 9:25:11 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: allmendream

The names and places of more than 3 million Jews killed are recorded. Many are unrecorded because whole towns and regions were made Judenrein. Those without surviving relatives and friends are more difficult to individually identify.

Jews were carefully segregated and counted, for tax purposes if nothing else. The numbers before and after are pretty solid.


44 posted on 02/02/2010 9:33:31 AM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...
Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


45 posted on 02/02/2010 9:48:41 AM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: jjotto
Yes, say what you will about the character of the German people; there is little doubt that they tend to be meticulous record keepers.

What I find curious, and somewhat amusing - is the strange character of those who hate the Jewish people, like Hitler, and yet deny the Holocaust. What then do they admire Hitler FOR?

Same mindset as those who hate America, love Osama bin Lauden, but deny that Al Queda was responsible for 9-11. What then do they admire 0sama bin Lauden FOR?

46 posted on 02/02/2010 9:50:38 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: marshmallow

Some people is just stupid.


47 posted on 02/02/2010 7:09:17 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: allmendream
What I find curious, and somewhat amusing - is the strange character of those who hate the Jewish people, like Hitler, and yet deny the Holocaust. What then do they admire Hitler FOR?

I think you are operating on a couple of bad assumptions here. One is that holocaust deniers "hate the Jewish people." Mabye they do, but there is no reason to assume so. People will say that person A is an antisemite because he denies the holocaust and then argue that those who deny the holocaust do so because of antisemitism. The first proves the second which proves the first again. This strikes me as something like petitio principii.

I have little doubt that a person could deny the holocaust in some way, either partially or completely, and yet have no formed opinion regarding the Jewish people. I also have no problem accepting that people can like Hitler without being antisemitic, just as people admire Mao or Stalin. People who are particularly drawn to ideas of nationalism or militaristic forms of totalitarianism could be supporters of Hitler or Nazism. In the end I believe this is just another case of circular reasoning.

48 posted on 02/02/2010 7:25:10 PM PST by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: cothrige
As I said, with Mel Gibson many hoped that his acceptance of his fathers Holocaust denial was not accompanied by virulent antisemitism; but the two just seem to go together like ducks and water.

Did you give Anita Dunn the same courtesy that when she praised Mao, you didn't assume she had a rather favorable view of Communism?

Those that deny the Holocaust have no real historic reasons for doing so, so I must assume they have personal reasons for so doing; and anecdotal evidence suggests they are brain dead racist losers.

49 posted on 02/03/2010 6:17:23 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: allmendream
Yes, say what you will about the character of the German people; there is little doubt that they tend to be meticulous record keepers.

That is true, and the respected British historian, Robert Conquest, has stated that the Holocaust numbers could easily be jumped up by another 1,000,000 Jewish murders in the western Soviet Union during WWII, but the vastly inferior bookkeeping of the Soviets makes counting much more difficult. The Soviets didn't keep good records of their own mass murdering in the Soviet Union, and certainly couldn't be expected to accurately report the German mass murdering while the Wehrmacht was in the U.S.S.R.

50 posted on 02/03/2010 10:24:24 AM PST by xJones
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