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WHO REALLY IS 'ANTI-CATHOLIC?'
Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | 1-23-10 | James Swan

Posted on 02/24/2010 9:36:26 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg

Back in one my old philosophy classes I recall lengthy discussions as to the relationship between names and reality, and then spinning around for hours contemplating the brain teaser of what it means to "mean" something about anything. The aftermath: an entire class of young minds slipped further into skepticism, as if the reality each twenty something experienced was completely unknowable. Of course, arriving at the conclusion that ultimate reality is unknowable is... to know something about ultimate reality! Ah, the futility of the sinful mind in its continual construction of Babel towers. Without the presupposition "He is there and He is not silent" the sinful mind does what it does best: it creates a worldview that can't account for the reality it truly experiences.

Despite the aspirin needed after attending such classes, it did force me early on to think about ostensive definitions, and the carefulness with which one defines terms. With theology, correctly using terms takes on the greatest moral imperative: one is speaking about the very holy God that created the universe. Think of terms that are used to describe Biblical doctrine, like "Trinity." One is using a term to describe a collection of factual data given by the Holy Spirit. If ever one should use caution, it should be with the construction of theological terms.

Consider the designator "Catholic Church." The Westminster Confession of Faith explains, "The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all." The Belgic Confession states that one of its primary distinguishing marks is the "pure preaching of the gospel." If one were pressed to point to that vital factor placing one in the Catholic Church, it is the work of Christ and His Gospel. It is the Gospel which unites the members of the Catholic Church. It is the work of Christ, grasped onto by faith that links those in the Catholic Church together. This pure Gospel is of such importance, that the apostle Paul states if anyone (including himself) preaches another Gospel, he should be eternally condemned.

But what about throwing the word "Roman" into the the mix? The addition of one simple word adds in an ingredient that changes the taste, so to speak. In this short mp3 clip, Tim Staples touched on what "Roman Catholic Church" means. He says "Roman Catholic" has popularly and un-technically come to be synonymous with the term "Catholic". He states "Roman Catholic" popularly means "you're in union with the bishop of Rome." Recent mega-convert Francis Beckwith concurs:

One of my pet peeves is the intentional overuse of "Rome," "Roman," "Romanist," etc. by Protestant critics of Catholic theology. Here's why: the Catholic Church is a collection of many churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It's catechism--The Catechism of the Catholic Church--is that of all these churches that are in communion with one another and with the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI. The theology found in that text, therefore, is not Roman Catholic theology. It is Catholic theology. That's the way the Church understands itself. Common courtesy suggests that those who are critical of that theology summon the respect to refer to it as such"[source].

I admit that I've often equated the two terms. I've used the term "Catholic" to describe Roman Catholics. It has taken a conscious effort on my part to keep the terms distinguished. On the other hand, I'm not sure how it's possible to "overuse" the word "Roman" when referring to those who actively and overtly pledge obedience to bishop of Rome. Beckwith is basically saying "Catholic" is the property of the papacy, and they will define the parameters of the word.

Whose theological usage reflects the teaching of sacred Scripture? Is union with the bishop of Rome an element of theological data mined from the Scriptures? Hardly. It's an extra-Biblical presupposition hoisted upon the text. One has to first assume the validity of the papacy and then read it back into the sacred text. The popular definition as described by Mr. Staples and Dr. Beckwith is entirely unbiblical.

There's one other theological term being thrown around with this: anti-Catholic. Recently Roman Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong stated he "temporarily suspended [his] ongoing policy of not interacting with anti-Catholic arguments and polemics." Well, after I ceased shaking in fear over this announcement, I scrolled through Armstrong's multiple diatribes to see his precise meaning of the term "anti-Catholic." His exact formula appears to boil down to: "One who denies that the Catholic Church and its theology is properly classifiable as Christian" [source].

By applying Armstrong's standard, an Anti-Mormon would be one who denies that the Mormon church and its theology is properly classifiable as Christian. Dave would probably say it's a good thing to be anti-Mormon. So, simply using the term "anti" as Armstrong suggests is either good or bad depending on one's presuppositions. According to Dave's definition, I would say it's a good thing to be anti-Catholic in the same way Dave would probably hold it's a good thing to be anti-Mormon.

Armstong's seemingly endless qualifications and examination of the term "anti-Catholic," as well as "his own definition" provoked me to apply what has been discussed above, and consider an alternate theological definition. If "Catholic" is connected symbiotically with the Gospel, wouldn't an anti-Catholic be someone who either denies the Gospel or denies it as that which unites the people of God into the universal Church? If a particular church overtly espouses a different Gospel, according to Paul, let him be anathema. If understood this way, it would be Roman Catholics who are anti-Catholics. Their Council of Trent explicitly rejected the Gospel in an official declaration.

How does one precisely refer to those in communion with Rome and obedient to the Bishop of Rome? Contrary to Beckwith, I've seriously considered using the word "Romanist." The term describes those devoted to the papacy quite succinctly. However, I was informed by another zealous defender of the papacy that "...many non-Catholic apologists are truly bigots at heart and they use 'Roman' as a derogatory insult. Their bigotry becomes even more clear when they use Romish or Romanist." No one wants to be thought of as a bigot. However, in the same Catholic Answers broadcast cited above, Tim Staples and his co-host positively referred to themselves as "Romanists" introducing their "open forum for non-Catholics" show, in which they only take calls from those outside of their worldview. Here is the mp3 clip. Perhaps they were kidding, although it's hard to tell.

I'm tempted to simply start using the term anti-Catholic for the reasons outlined. I can think of no better theological phrase to describe those who inject obedience to the papacy into the term "Catholic Church."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; freformed; usancgldslvr
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To: Judith Anne; Petronski
There are no ROMAN Catholic threads on the forum.

Are you Petronski's mother???

1,041 posted on 02/26/2010 5:51:38 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos; Petronski; Judith Anne
ok...is Arius home?

He has the day off, Nestorius is filling in for him today.

1,042 posted on 02/26/2010 5:52:09 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool; xone; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Forest Keeper; wagglebee; Cvengr; ...
Iscool: Jesus is still separate from God...As is the Holy Spirit...

The Holy Spirit is here, on earth, in the bodies of men/women...Jesus and God are in Heaven...

If you study the scriptures, you know it's in there


Thank you Iscool. Just to be accurate to your beliefs, in sola scriptura (scripture alone) you say you, ISCOOL, have the conclusion that:

1. Jesus is separate from God
2. The Holy Spirit is separate from God
3. The Holy Spirit is here on earth, in the bodies of men and women
4. Jesus is in Heaven with his creator God

Have I captured your statements correctly?
1,043 posted on 02/26/2010 6:02:01 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Cronos
Scripture and Holy Tradition do not contradict each other as Holy Tradition birthed Scripture

But it is not your Catholic tradition which is Holy...Your Catholic tradition contradicts scripture...

1,044 posted on 02/26/2010 6:05:27 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
ok...is Arius home?

I don't know Arius...And Dave's not here either...

1,045 posted on 02/26/2010 6:06:46 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos

And if Jesus Christ is “separate” from God, that means one of two things:

1. That Jesus Christ IS NOT God.

or

2. That Jesus Christ is A God and the person who believes this is a polytheist.


1,046 posted on 02/26/2010 6:10:47 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool

Scripture and Holy Tradition do not contradict each other as Holy Tradition birthed Scripture


1,047 posted on 02/26/2010 6:13:47 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Iscool; Cronos; Petronski; Judith Anne
Jesus is still separate from God.

So, do you deny that Jesus Christ is God? Because ALL of Christianity considers this to be heretical.

Or, do you consider Jesus Christ to be ONE God and the Father to be ANOTHER God? Because ALL Christians also consider polytheism to be heretical.

1,048 posted on 02/26/2010 6:15:52 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Cronos
Have I captured your statements correctly?

Yes...And Jesus also said, 'I and my Father are One'...

They are three, but they are one...That's pretty clear in the scriptures...And it's definitely not just 3 natures...

Now God never asked your religion to define it, and He certainly didn't give you a private revelation as to the nature of the Trinity...HE didn't even ask you to understand it...

Your view of the Trinity is nothing more than a wild guess...And your guess is clearly wrong...

1,049 posted on 02/26/2010 6:16:35 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: wagglebee; Iscool

Yes, the prophet Iscool will tell we which option is correct


1,050 posted on 02/26/2010 6:17:32 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: wagglebee
And if Jesus Christ is “separate” from God, that means one of two things: 1. That Jesus Christ IS NOT God. or 2. That Jesus Christ is A God and the person who believes this is a polytheist.

Jesus provided a lot more information than that in the scriptures on the topic... A little bible study would do you good...Well, no it wouldn't... You're not allowed to believe anything outside of what your religion tells you...

1,051 posted on 02/26/2010 6:19:08 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
Yes, the prophet Iscool will tell we which option is correct

Take off your Catholic blinders and prayerfully open the scriptures and likely God will show you many things you never imagined...

1,052 posted on 02/26/2010 6:21:32 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Ah, yes, And yet, they CANNOT be separate because we believe that God is ONE. We also believe that Jesus was God. And we believe that they were separate "somethings":)

And you said That proves again that you still don't have a clue about the Trinity....

They are three, but they are one...That's pretty clear in the scriptures...And it's definitely not just 3 natures..."

1,053 posted on 02/26/2010 6:22:22 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Iscool; Cronos; Petronski; Judith Anne
Jesus provided a lot more information than that in the scriptures on the topic... A little bible study would do you good...Well, no it wouldn't... You're not allowed to believe anything outside of what your religion tells you...

Great evasion tactic, but it won't work.

You have made the statement that Jesus Christ is separate from God. This statement stems from one of two beliefs, BOTH of which are considered heretical by ALL Christians. Do you believe:

A. That Jesus Christ IS NOT God?
or
B. That Jesus Christ and God the Father are TWO SEPARATE Gods?

1,054 posted on 02/26/2010 6:23:35 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; xone; wmfights
Iscool: Jesus is still separate from God.

Wagglebee: " So, do you deny that Jesus Christ is God? Because ALL of Christianity considers this to be heretical.

Or, do you consider Jesus Christ to be ONE God and the Father to be ANOTHER God? Because ALL Christians also consider polytheism to be heretical. "

Iscool insists that he has reached that conclusion via sola scriptura. I don't believe that Lutherans or Baptists share that belief, but may be wrong.
1,055 posted on 02/26/2010 6:24:56 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Iscool
Wagglebee: And if Jesus Christ is “separate” from God, that means one of two things: 1. That Jesus Christ IS NOT God. or 2. That Jesus Christ is A God and the person who believes this is a polytheist

Iscool: Jesus provided a lot more information than that in the scriptures on the topic... A little bible study would do you good..."

Oh, we're sorry, as you said Iscool: Jesus is still separate from God...As is the Holy Spirit...

The Holy Spirit is here, on earth, in the bodies of men/women...Jesus and God are in Heaven...

If you study the scriptures, you know it's in there


Which in sola scriptura (scripture alone) you say you, ISCOOL, have the conclusion that:

1. Jesus is separate from God
2. The Holy Spirit is separate from God
3. The Holy Spirit is here on earth, in the bodies of men and women
4. Jesus is in Heaven with his creator God

1,056 posted on 02/26/2010 6:28:29 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: roamer_1; Cronos; UriĀ’el-2012; xone
And UriÂ’el would be correct. In fact, UriÂ’el is quite correct.

If the Father required a Roman Catholic sense of the Trinity, it would be very specifically laid out in the Scriptures. It is *not*. The exact makeup of the Godhead is an unfathomable mystery.

UriÂ’el has taken nothing away from the Scriptures, nor has he added to it. He speaks the Gospel of the Risen Lord.

Amen ! Brother.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
1,057 posted on 02/26/2010 6:29:56 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wagglebee
You have made the statement that Jesus Christ is separate from God. This statement stems from one of two beliefs, BOTH of which are considered heretical by ALL Christians.

Now there you go again...Trying to use your fleshly, human logic to decipher spiritual matters...

You give me two options to believe in...And I of course reject both of those...

1,058 posted on 02/26/2010 6:30:46 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
"Thanks for telling us we're correct."

Certainly. The Vatican did not select Scripture. The Church did.

You are correct in part. The "Church" you mention was not the organization later formed as the "Catholic" church - it was the "universal" agreement of the books of the Bible that were already being used by Churches of Christ in most areas of Christianity. Of course, before Carthage listed the books, many Christians had already decided which ones they were. History shows us this.

"Wrong reasons"?

You don't know the reasons why I said what I did - please get over it and recognize that others are entitled to tell what they have learned from history.

Sorry about that. Truth will out, though. You are wrong, overall.

Okay, you're forgiven. Yes, Truth will out! As for being wrong, that's your opinion, and I can accept that :-)

1,059 posted on 02/26/2010 6:32:39 AM PST by Ken4TA (The truth sometimes hurts - but is truth nonetheless!)
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To: roamer_1
Your point:

But there are also insurmountable dichotomies which can be listed

Your answer:

Who can define God? No one can.

Except God Himself. I'll take Jesus' word: John 14:7

7If you really knew me, you would know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

1,060 posted on 02/26/2010 6:32:55 AM PST by xone
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