Skip to comments.WHO REALLY IS 'ANTI-CATHOLIC?'
Posted on 02/24/2010 9:36:26 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
Back in one my old philosophy classes I recall lengthy discussions as to the relationship between names and reality, and then spinning around for hours contemplating the brain teaser of what it means to "mean" something about anything. The aftermath: an entire class of young minds slipped further into skepticism, as if the reality each twenty something experienced was completely unknowable. Of course, arriving at the conclusion that ultimate reality is unknowable is... to know something about ultimate reality! Ah, the futility of the sinful mind in its continual construction of Babel towers. Without the presupposition "He is there and He is not silent" the sinful mind does what it does best: it creates a worldview that can't account for the reality it truly experiences.
Despite the aspirin needed after attending such classes, it did force me early on to think about ostensive definitions, and the carefulness with which one defines terms. With theology, correctly using terms takes on the greatest moral imperative: one is speaking about the very holy God that created the universe. Think of terms that are used to describe Biblical doctrine, like "Trinity." One is using a term to describe a collection of factual data given by the Holy Spirit. If ever one should use caution, it should be with the construction of theological terms.
Consider the designator "Catholic Church." The Westminster Confession of Faith explains, "The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all." The Belgic Confession states that one of its primary distinguishing marks is the "pure preaching of the gospel." If one were pressed to point to that vital factor placing one in the Catholic Church, it is the work of Christ and His Gospel. It is the Gospel which unites the members of the Catholic Church. It is the work of Christ, grasped onto by faith that links those in the Catholic Church together. This pure Gospel is of such importance, that the apostle Paul states if anyone (including himself) preaches another Gospel, he should be eternally condemned.
But what about throwing the word "Roman" into the the mix? The addition of one simple word adds in an ingredient that changes the taste, so to speak. In this short mp3 clip, Tim Staples touched on what "Roman Catholic Church" means. He says "Roman Catholic" has popularly and un-technically come to be synonymous with the term "Catholic". He states "Roman Catholic" popularly means "you're in union with the bishop of Rome." Recent mega-convert Francis Beckwith concurs:
One of my pet peeves is the intentional overuse of "Rome," "Roman," "Romanist," etc. by Protestant critics of Catholic theology. Here's why: the Catholic Church is a collection of many churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It's catechism--The Catechism of the Catholic Church--is that of all these churches that are in communion with one another and with the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI. The theology found in that text, therefore, is not Roman Catholic theology. It is Catholic theology. That's the way the Church understands itself. Common courtesy suggests that those who are critical of that theology summon the respect to refer to it as such"[source].
I admit that I've often equated the two terms. I've used the term "Catholic" to describe Roman Catholics. It has taken a conscious effort on my part to keep the terms distinguished. On the other hand, I'm not sure how it's possible to "overuse" the word "Roman" when referring to those who actively and overtly pledge obedience to bishop of Rome. Beckwith is basically saying "Catholic" is the property of the papacy, and they will define the parameters of the word.
Whose theological usage reflects the teaching of sacred Scripture? Is union with the bishop of Rome an element of theological data mined from the Scriptures? Hardly. It's an extra-Biblical presupposition hoisted upon the text. One has to first assume the validity of the papacy and then read it back into the sacred text. The popular definition as described by Mr. Staples and Dr. Beckwith is entirely unbiblical.
There's one other theological term being thrown around with this: anti-Catholic. Recently Roman Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong stated he "temporarily suspended [his] ongoing policy of not interacting with anti-Catholic arguments and polemics." Well, after I ceased shaking in fear over this announcement, I scrolled through Armstrong's multiple diatribes to see his precise meaning of the term "anti-Catholic." His exact formula appears to boil down to: "One who denies that the Catholic Church and its theology is properly classifiable as Christian" [source].
By applying Armstrong's standard, an Anti-Mormon would be one who denies that the Mormon church and its theology is properly classifiable as Christian. Dave would probably say it's a good thing to be anti-Mormon. So, simply using the term "anti" as Armstrong suggests is either good or bad depending on one's presuppositions. According to Dave's definition, I would say it's a good thing to be anti-Catholic in the same way Dave would probably hold it's a good thing to be anti-Mormon.
Armstong's seemingly endless qualifications and examination of the term "anti-Catholic," as well as "his own definition" provoked me to apply what has been discussed above, and consider an alternate theological definition. If "Catholic" is connected symbiotically with the Gospel, wouldn't an anti-Catholic be someone who either denies the Gospel or denies it as that which unites the people of God into the universal Church? If a particular church overtly espouses a different Gospel, according to Paul, let him be anathema. If understood this way, it would be Roman Catholics who are anti-Catholics. Their Council of Trent explicitly rejected the Gospel in an official declaration.
How does one precisely refer to those in communion with Rome and obedient to the Bishop of Rome? Contrary to Beckwith, I've seriously considered using the word "Romanist." The term describes those devoted to the papacy quite succinctly. However, I was informed by another zealous defender of the papacy that "...many non-Catholic apologists are truly bigots at heart and they use 'Roman' as a derogatory insult. Their bigotry becomes even more clear when they use Romish or Romanist." No one wants to be thought of as a bigot. However, in the same Catholic Answers broadcast cited above, Tim Staples and his co-host positively referred to themselves as "Romanists" introducing their "open forum for non-Catholics" show, in which they only take calls from those outside of their worldview. Here is the mp3 clip. Perhaps they were kidding, although it's hard to tell.
I'm tempted to simply start using the term anti-Catholic for the reasons outlined. I can think of no better theological phrase to describe those who inject obedience to the papacy into the term "Catholic Church."
I too am catholic, but not Roman Catholic.
Does your place of worship refer to itself as Roman Catholic? Does your diocese?
They certainly can. One sentence directly following another sentence. And another. For all to see.
a) No b) please do not make this thread about me.
This thread is not about you, Judith.
I’m not making it about “you.”
But if I were to do so, you opened the door by asking us not to refer to you as a ROMAN Catholic. I am just trying to understand the distinction here.
I am not the one having difficulty reading post 940. Your statement was “When Roman Catholics tell us that “Christian” means to pray to saints, etc.”
“Christian” means follower of Christ. Catholic beliefs may differ from other Christian beliefs, but Catholics are Christian. I am Catholic. Not ROMAN Catholic, Catholic.
Whenever we ask for clear theology we get only hints and allusions, expecting us to guess whatever it is they believe, then vilify us for guessing. I was told to meditate on certain words, such as “vicar of Christ”, too bad for them I did and then researched it biblically. It has nought to do with a pope
Don't worry we won't, that's what all those opuses are for.
lol. “Too bad” is right.
I have no idea why some churches use “Roman Catholic.” Mine does not. Nor does my diocese.
Thank you for your calm posts and offered information.
My diocese does not use the word “roman” anywhere on the website. At all. Neither does my parish. Neither does my former parish. Neither do my children’s parishes.
And yet, they CANNOT be One, because they are often separate. And Christ functions under the will of the Father, implying hierarchy. Many views can be legitimate, according to belief.
But I don't CARE what you believe. I care about what you can prove. If it cannot be proven, how can one interpretation be of any use against the other?
Uri's view simplifies this (please correct me if I am wrong, Uri) as he believes that Jesus and the Father are one being, not separate and that the Holy Spirit is not a separate being.
Simple things don't break.
But I would criticize UriÂel-2012 as well, if he believes his concept of God to be precisely correct, exclusive, and superior.
I would deny ANYONE who says their particular belief is wholly provable upon the Word, because it simply is *not.* We cannot begin to fathom God, nor is the Godhead particularly defined - So *NO ONE* can claim to know, to the exclusion of all others.
It_Is_A_Mystery. Yet to be revealed.
To 1015 - That is perfectly ok, Judith Anne. :^)
That the word "Trinity" is not there in the scriptures doesn't trouble us, but can be used by sola scriptura non-Trinitarians against sola scriptura Protestants
How about kneeling down and kissing the ring of the pope? Or falling prostate before him?
Exactly why I posted what I did. Others have been telling me what I believe and what I think since this thread started.
I don't believe that for a minute...
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
That's preach the word of God, not a catechism or a tradition...
Dr. E is right on the mark...
When he went to the mountain, what Tradition exactly did Moses follow?
That proves again that your religion still doesn't have a clue about the Trinity...Your vicar of Christ doesn't even understand the Trinity...And you guys claim you discovered It...
Jesus is still separate from God...As is the Holy Spirit...
The Holy Spirit is here, on earth, in the bodies of men/women...Jesus and God are in Heaven...
If you study the scriptures, you know it's in there...Problem is again, you just don't believe God...
Those twisted statements come from your brother/sister Catholics...They just get repeated here by some Protestants...
Why don't you take it up with your religion???
Hopefully with an attending urologist nearby.
Scripture and Holy Tradition do not contradict each other as Holy Tradition birthed Scripture
Marble Mary toe kissers...
It would be terrible except that it's true...lolololololol...
I don’t get how your question is linked to my statement that Scripture and Holy Tradition do not contradict each other.
Good luck with that one. *lolz*
No it doesn't...Many people followed Jesus to get free food...Some to get healed...
All Christians follow Jesus...But all followers are not Christians...
Why is it you guys can't ever get yourself to say Jesus Christ??? I'm thinkin' you guys need a little closer relationship with your Saviour...
Some Catholics are Christians...One does not become a Christian by becoming Catholic...
Are you Petronski's mother???
He has the day off, Nestorius is filling in for him today.
But it is not your Catholic tradition which is Holy...Your Catholic tradition contradicts scripture...
I don't know Arius...And Dave's not here either...
And if Jesus Christ is “separate” from God, that means one of two things:
1. That Jesus Christ IS NOT God.
2. That Jesus Christ is A God and the person who believes this is a polytheist.
Scripture and Holy Tradition do not contradict each other as Holy Tradition birthed Scripture
So, do you deny that Jesus Christ is God? Because ALL of Christianity considers this to be heretical.
Or, do you consider Jesus Christ to be ONE God and the Father to be ANOTHER God? Because ALL Christians also consider polytheism to be heretical.
Yes...And Jesus also said, 'I and my Father are One'...
They are three, but they are one...That's pretty clear in the scriptures...And it's definitely not just 3 natures...
Now God never asked your religion to define it, and He certainly didn't give you a private revelation as to the nature of the Trinity...HE didn't even ask you to understand it...
Your view of the Trinity is nothing more than a wild guess...And your guess is clearly wrong...
Yes, the prophet Iscool will tell we which option is correct
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