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TIME names "New Calvinism" 3rd Most Powerful Idea Changing the World
TIME Magazine ^ | March 12, 2009 | David Van Biema

Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege

John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.

Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.

No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: backto1500; calvin; calvinism; calvinist; christians; epicfail; evangelicals; influence; johncalvin; nontruths; predestination; protestant; reformation; reformedtheology; time; topten; tulip
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"Now, there are certain doctrines commonly called Calvinistic (but which ought never to have been called by such a name, for they are simply Christian doctrines) which I think commend themselves to the minds of all thoughtful persons, for this reason mainly, that they do ascribe to God everything...That doctrine which is called “Calvinism” did not spring from Calvin; we believe that it sprang from the great founder of all truth."

~ Charles Spurgeon

1 posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

“And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

— Jesus (and the Apostle John, probably)


2 posted on 02/28/2010 8:35:20 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Buy your way out of purgatory = borrow your way out of debt.

Unreformed medieval Catholic Church = the Democratic Party.


3 posted on 02/28/2010 8:36:07 AM PST by proxy_user
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

The major problem with calvinism is that when you take its premise that God is responsible for everything, then God is ultimately the source of all evil.

In fact, terms like “sin”, “disobedience”, or “obedience” become meaningless since all human activity or actions is merely God’s robotic creation “acting” according to His divine blueprint.

Courage, cowardice, even love are meaningless since human being are simply acting out the “plan” designed for them.


4 posted on 02/28/2010 8:54:37 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

The major problem with calvinism is that when you take its premise that God is responsible for everything, then God is ultimately the source of all evil.

In fact, terms like “sin”, “disobedience”, or “obedience” become meaningless since all human activity or actions is merely God’s robotic creation “acting” according to His divine blueprint.

Courage, cowardice, even love are meaningless since human being are simply acting out the “plan” designed for them.


5 posted on 02/28/2010 8:54:40 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: Nevadan

The major problem with calvinism is that when you take its premise that God is responsible for everything, then God is ultimately the source of all evil.

Agreed. No one can tell me that illness and death aren't Satan's tools.

6 posted on 02/28/2010 9:05:20 AM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: norge
Agreed. No one can tell me that illness and death aren't Satan's tools.

According to the Westminster Confession of Faith, everything that happens to the extent that it happens, in the order that it happens, and who it happens to, is all for the Reformed God's pleasure. I have also been instructed by the Reformed that satan is a tool of the Reformed God who uses him for His pleasure and to do His will. Indeed, it appears that satan can do no other than what the Reformed God has predestined for him.

7 posted on 02/28/2010 9:18:52 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: norge; Nevadan
"The major problem with calvinism is that when you take its premise that God is responsible for everything, then God is ultimately the source of all evil."

Hi Nevadan and Norge. First off, the problem with NOT believing in Calvinism gives one the idea that GOD is somehow "weaker" than Satan. That somehow, Satan wins out and gets his way. And looking at the history of the human race, it would seem that Satan is really the one in charge.

Secondly, not believing in Calvinism gives the idea that there is no ultimate, underlying order in the universe. That death, pain, and suffering just sort of happen purposelessly, and that there's no ultimate aim behind things like natural disasters. If a young believer is battling a life-threatening illness, and has no belief that GOD is ultimately the one in control, what's the point in praying? And then, should he or she die, what solace would there be to the family members if they do not have faith in GOD'S sovereignty over the matter?

Just think, wasn't Christ's suffering, death, and resurrection prophecied for thousands of years? Christ prophecied it all throughout his ministry. He even knew Judas would betray him. Why? Because everything was going to go as PLANNED. GOD was fully in control of every last detail, and even what Satan meant for ill, GOD meant for good (as Christ's resurrection attests to)...which leads me to my final point:

GOD is not the author of evil. He *permits* evil. He *allows* for it because it plays a role in the fulfillment of His ultimate, eternal plan for His people. If you read the book of JOB, you'd see that He *permits* Satan to wreak havoc on even the lives of the most faithful people. But, even SATAN is ultimately under GOD'S jurisdiction. Satan can't work beyond what GOD allows. Because in the end, everything will go exactly as GOD intends.

8 posted on 02/28/2010 9:22:09 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

“Secondly, not believing in Calvinism gives the idea that there is no ultimate, underlying order in the universe.”

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


9 posted on 02/28/2010 9:24:30 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Nonsense.

Don’t get me wrong. I admire the Calvinist ethic. It has contributed immeasurably to this country’s greatness.

But what you posted is the same rewarmed sophistry that Calvinists always post.

God can and does delegate responsibility and is STILL sovereign. His sovereignty by definition means He CAN do that and isn’t “weaker” as a result.


10 posted on 02/28/2010 9:34:14 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: CondoleezzaProtege; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

11 posted on 02/28/2010 9:40:35 AM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
 Calvinism and Free Will                                                                 
12 posted on 02/28/2010 9:44:06 AM PST by mjp (pro-{God, reality, reason, egoism, individualism, independence, limited government, capitalism})
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Well, I have a few friends at Calvin College. But I must say that virtually all the Evangelicals I know think that Calvin is nuts. Indeed, they are rather more forthright in speaking their mind than I usually am.

Why on EARTH is Time magazine pushing this silliness?

Just check out the five points Dutch Calvinists agreed on at the Synod of Dort, before they started executing their opponents for Arminianism.


13 posted on 02/28/2010 9:58:58 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: MarkBsnr

“Indeed, it appears that satan can do no other than what the Reformed God has predestined for him.”

I agree with your point to the extent that the Bible doesn’t
teach Satan’s acts are predestined. The outcome of any act
he takes, however, falls within God’s sovereignty.

If Satan can act outside the sovereign will of God, then God
isn’t sovereign.

That is quite different than “predestining” all acts.

blessings,
ampu


14 posted on 02/28/2010 9:59:03 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Nevadan

You show your ignorance. Click my screen name and scroll half-way down the page.


15 posted on 02/28/2010 10:01:46 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Sowell's book, Intellectuals and Society, eviscerates the fantasies that uphold leftist thought)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
GOD is not the author of evil. He *permits* evil. He *allows* for it because it plays a role in the fulfillment of His ultimate, eternal plan for His people. If you read the book of JOB, you'd see that He *permits* Satan to wreak havoc on even the lives of the most faithful people. But, even SATAN is ultimately under GOD'S jurisdiction. Satan can't work beyond what GOD allows. Because in the end, everything will go exactly as GOD intends.

You cannot have it both ways. Either God is the author of evil because He dictates every action or else God permits free will to occur with the resulting evil that satan and men may do.

If God directs satan, then He is the author of evil. We Christians reject that. We believe that God is not the author of evil. And therefore satan operates within Creation of his own free will, as we do.

16 posted on 02/28/2010 10:10:19 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I agree with your point to the extent that the Bible doesn’t teach Satan’s acts are predestined. The outcome of any act he takes, however, falls within God’s sovereignty.

If Satan can act outside the sovereign will of God, then God isn’t sovereign.

That is quite different than “predestining” all acts.

Correct, to a point. One must define what sovereignty means first. If by sovereign, one means that God is the Creator and has set up the Universe for us, that is one thing. If by sovereign, one means that God is the ultimate computer programmer who has created a universe of robot slaves, that is another.

17 posted on 02/28/2010 10:13:00 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

re: “GOD is not the author of evil. He *permits* evil. He *allows* for it because it plays a role in the fulfillment of His ultimate, eternal plan for His people. If you read the book of JOB, you’d see that He *permits* Satan to wreak havoc on even the lives of the most faithful people. But, even SATAN is ultimately under GOD’S jurisdiction. Satan can’t work beyond what GOD allows. Because in the end, everything will go exactly as GOD intends.”
_________________________

What you stated above is not what pure calvinism teaches. When you say, “God permits” or “God allows”, you imply that people, even Satan, have a will and the ability to act on that will - but, all within the boundarys set by God. That is not calvinism. Pure 5 point calvinism teaches not just that God “allows” or “permits”, but that He is the initiator and source of the act - otherwise God is not “sovereign”.

I agree with you that God is sovereign - but it is how one defines that sovereignty that is the problem. For the calvinistis I personally know - in order for God to be sovereign He must not only allow or permit - He is the author and initiator of all human acts and acts of nature.

On a personal note, I have a very dear friend who is now in the “reformed” camp. It nearly destroyed out friendship because he wanted me to agree with him on all this calvinistic stuff. The “god” of calvinism is not the God of the Bible. You speak of praying to God - my question is “why pray” - it has already been determined what God is going to do. Nothing you say or ask has any bearing on God’s will.

I agree that God allows evil and sorrow because if He didn’t there wouldn’t be any freedom for people to love or reject God. I say “amen” to the Book of Job. Satan acted but God set restrictions. That is not calvinism. I don’t really think that you are a calvinist in the strict sense of the word.

A King being sovereign over his kingdom does not necessarily mean that everyone within his kingdom does what he desires - yet that King is still sovereign - it is his kingdom and he ulimately has the final say over the actions of his subject. His subjects are “free” to act and yet are accountable to their king. Calvinism teaches that God must be the source and initiator of even sinful acts of man - or, He is not sovereign. This is why they believe that man cannot respond to God’s grace without he/she being preordestined to believe - because human beings do not even have the ability to respond to God on their own - that human beings are incapable, because of their sinful nature, to accept God’s salvation for them.

That is not the God of the Bible that I know. This whole calvinism thing has been argued about for the past 400 years and will probably be argued about until Jesus returns. I know that somehow we have human freedom to love, accept, or reject God’s grace - and, yet, God is still sovereign and the initiator of that grace. Without Him taking that step we would have no hope. But, we must as a willful act on our own reach out for that lifeline - when that one reaches out He saves that one. The reaching out by individual human beings doe in no way take away from the glory and sovereignty of Almighty God.


18 posted on 02/28/2010 10:14:58 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: norge
No one can tell me that illness and death aren't Satan's tools.

They are the result of the fall. It is at the fall that sin and death entered this world..

19 posted on 02/28/2010 10:16:33 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Cicero

http://evangelicalarminians.org/Are_You_an_Arminian_and_Dont_Even_Know_It


20 posted on 02/28/2010 10:18:15 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MarkBsnr; Nevadan
I have also been instructed by the Reformed that satan is a tool of the Reformed God who uses him for His pleasure and to do His will. Indeed, it appears that satan can do no other than what the Reformed God has predestined for him.

That is what the Bible says.. Have you read Job?

In Job, Chapter 2; God says, "Have you considered My servant Job? And he says, Let me at him again." And so in verse 6 chapter 2 the Lord said to Satan, "Behold he's in your hand, this time you can hit him but you can't kill him....you can't kill him. Satan went right out of the presence of the Lord and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to his crown."

, Satan stands at the throne of God accusing the brethren, as he did with Job here. But God must give permission to Satan before he can act.

Not only that in Job we see God not only permit the testing of Job, God Himself suggests Job

Consider the role of God in the temptation of Christ.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
That temptation was foreordained, Satan acted only with the permission of God

Consider this well known verse

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

He may not just devour anyone. God uses Satan for his purposes.

Is God God of all His creation or only God over some of His creation? Are we dualists believing that Satan is an equal warrior to God ?

How then can you be sure that in the end Satan will not win? __________________

21 posted on 02/28/2010 10:26:27 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Cicero
Why on EARTH is Time magazine pushing this silliness?

Because it is an unexpected truth in this world where every man thinks he is god

22 posted on 02/28/2010 10:29:02 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Nevadan
"Courage, cowardice, even love are meaningless since human being are simply acting out the “plan” designed for them."

That was just a hollow ploy by Calvin to establish his sinless bona fides in the face of so much damning evidence. By making all sin the fault of God he could claim to be equal to or superior to Jesus and His Church.

23 posted on 02/28/2010 10:33:48 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: MarkBsnr

Did you ever hear the argument that we’re not robots because robots don’t know that they’re robots but we do? That one cracks me up.


24 posted on 02/28/2010 10:43:12 AM PST by firebrand
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To: MarkBsnr

“Correct, to a point. One must define what sovereignty means first. If by sovereign, one means that God is the Creator and has set up the Universe for us, that is one thing.”

The fact of God’s creation of everything that exists is
different than His sovereignty and omnipotence. He is
more, however, than just the Creator. I am a creator too,
but am not sovereign or omnipotent (or any of the other
great attributes that have been revealed about God).

God did more than the deist believes - setting up the world
and letting us go along our way. He has true sovereignty and
omnipotence over that creation. It will progress and end
in exactly the way He chose.

“If by sovereign, one means that God is the ultimate computer programmer who has created a universe of robot slaves, that is another.”

I might lean toward considering that a straw man argument,
since I did not argue that.

When I use sovereign to describe God, I am using it in
the identical sense He is revealed as Sovereign in the
Scriptures - the most exalted power that is above all other
powers (supreme power over all other powers) - and this
to an unlimited extent, since He is also Omnipotent.

Satan is a created being. Man is a created race. Each has
limited choices, which God has allowed. He doesn’t choose
for them... and they will bear the consequences of their
choices. He allows this as part of His creation and it
does not diminish that He remains Sovereign and Omnipotent.

All of history is moving toward the conclusion He has chosen
- satan doing evil along the way.


25 posted on 02/28/2010 10:53:41 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: MarkBsnr
I think of it as similar to the card game in Last Year at Marienbad, in which cards are laid out in a pyramidal grid, the players can take a certain number of cards from a row, and the goal is to not get stuck taking the last card. God is the one who always wins. The one who begins the game always submits to God in the end.

I worked the game out painstakingly when I was a youth by starting with only two cards left, then going to three, then four, etc., and recording the pattern of how many cards had to be removed in order to win.

I think I remember learning later that in the movie, the winner makes a mistake but then corrects it in the next round. God of course would not make a mistake.

It is easy, on the other hand, for someone who does not know the pattern to make a mistake.

26 posted on 02/28/2010 10:57:01 AM PST by firebrand
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To: Nevadan; Dr. Eckleburg; Frumanchu
The major problem with calvinism is that when you take its premise that God is responsible for everything, then God is ultimately the source of all evil.

Calvinists would disagree with you understanding of what they believe.

Incidentally, if Calvinism posited a robotic/mechanistic creation as you seem to think, then there could be no good or evil. There would just be the behavior of the machine.

27 posted on 02/28/2010 11:13:22 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

The following statement makes Calvinism ultimately a denial of NT Christianity:

Calvinists were never in any real danger of going to hell.


28 posted on 02/28/2010 11:15:03 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Larry Lucido

Well said. But you won’t get anywhere: they are elect,
and are predestined to believe that.

I always say that I will be more willing to listen to
a Calvinist who says he believes in the 5 points and
that he is not one of the elect.


29 posted on 02/28/2010 12:10:07 PM PST by Bainbridge
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
As a Lutheran, I can confess that God is God without believing in double predestination. God desires that all people be saved, but not all people are going to be saved. Grace is resistible as God chooses to work through means. All who believe in Jesus Christ by the mediate work of the Holy Spirit are the elect. God elects no one to Hell. God limits Himself to work through these means.
30 posted on 02/28/2010 12:16:28 PM PST by Nosterrex
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To: Larry Lucido

Well said. But you won’t get anywhere: they are elect,
and are predestined to believe that.

I always say that I will be more willing to listen to
a Calvinist who says he believes in the 5 points and
that he is not one of the elect.


31 posted on 02/28/2010 12:17:37 PM PST by Bainbridge
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To: Nevadan; CondoleezzaProtege; xzins; Frumanchu; RnMomof7; the_conscience; drstevej; ...
First, thanks to CondoleezzaProtege for posting Time's take (from a year ago) on Calvinism. Since so many Christians haven't given the doctrines of grace much thought, (most) publicity is good. 8~)

The article is correct when it quotes Al Mohler that "The moment someone begins to define God's [being or actions] biblically, that person is drawn to conclusions that are traditionally classified as Calvinist."

And as the author of this article says, it will be interesting to see if "during these hard times, more Christians searching for security will submit their wills to the austerely demanding God of their country's infancy."

Calvinists are confident that exactly as many as God has determined to submit their wills and lives to God will do so by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

God is all holy; He is not the author of sin. But it is equally true that all things, including Satan, are under the hand, will and purpose of the Triune God. How could that not be true and God still be God? Satan is, after all, a created being.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17

"All things."

Therefore the Christian who has been given God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ should boast only in the Lord, and not in anything in himself. Because salvation is of the Lord. Alone. And that is the true focal point of our confidence in His love -- that He loved us before we loved Him, "before we could do anything good or evil." (Romans 9:11.)

All that being true, then we are able to trust God when our lives are happy and likewise to trust Him when sadness prevails. Because it is ALL by God, for God, through God, one way or another, to bring His children to Him.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -- Romans 8:28

"All things."

32 posted on 02/28/2010 12:42:41 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: RnMomof7
Is God God of all His creation or only God over some of His creation? Are we dualists believing that Satan is an equal warrior to God ? How then can you be sure that in the end Satan will not win?

Amen! Those are the questions that lead men from Arminianism to Calvinism, from the world and the ego to His word alone, by His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for His glory alone.

33 posted on 02/28/2010 12:46:02 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: firebrand
Did you ever hear the argument that we’re not robots because robots don’t know that they’re robots but we do? That one cracks me up.

And you heard that where?

34 posted on 02/28/2010 12:59:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Incidentally, if Calvinism posited a robotic/mechanistic creation as you seem to think, then there could be no good or evil. There would just be the behavior of the machine.

Exactly

35 posted on 02/28/2010 1:01:13 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Nevadan; RnMomof7; CondoleezzaProtege
Courage, cowardice, even love are meaningless since human being are simply acting out the “plan” designed for them.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6

I realize this is radical information to us who have been steeped in the fever dreams of our own ability, but it is the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. His righteousness alone, mercifully imputed to us, saves us and not our own righteousness.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

Men are saved by mercy and not debt. We have not chosen Him; He has chosen us.

Read Romans 8-9. Read John wherein Christ tells us who believes and who is saved and why...

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." -- John 10:26


" I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:9;20


36 posted on 02/28/2010 1:07:36 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Nevadan
The major problem with calvinism is that when you take its premise that God is responsible for everything, then God is ultimately the source of all evil.

Yeah, so. God is sovereign; He does what He pleases. Why be so arrogant as to say that God can have this attribute but not that one. Who created who?

Do you also have a problem with Romans Chapter 8?

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

37 posted on 02/28/2010 1:18:56 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: firebrand
Men are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If that makes Christians "robots" of God, then thank God for His free, unearned mercy.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

38 posted on 02/28/2010 1:28:34 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Calvinists are confident that exactly as many as God has determined to submit their wills and lives to God will do so by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit."

Still waiting to hear the verse in scripture where we are given faith as the result of our regeneration (born again), not born again thru faith.

"38Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, "Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days." 40Jesus said to her, "Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?" 41So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me." 43When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out." 44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." 45 Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him..."

"3In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it..."

"in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise"

39 posted on 02/28/2010 1:28:45 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: P8riot

“those God foreknew...”


40 posted on 02/28/2010 1:29:24 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“Men are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.”

Are slaves alive? If they are offered freedom, can they accept?


41 posted on 02/28/2010 1:30:31 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Chosen IN HIM.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2448540/posts


42 posted on 02/28/2010 1:31:46 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: RnMomof7

On FR


43 posted on 02/28/2010 1:38:16 PM PST by firebrand
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
God did more than the deist believes - setting up the world and letting us go along our way. He has true sovereignty and omnipotence over that creation. It will progress and end in exactly the way He chose.

Amen.

" That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been" -- Ecclesiastes 3:15


"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:9-10


" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13


44 posted on 02/28/2010 1:38:50 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

We are complex. I don’t feel like a slave to righteousness. I feel that I choose it daily and choose the way to exercise it. You are not of the robot persuasion, I hope.


45 posted on 02/28/2010 1:41:16 PM PST by firebrand
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To: Mr Rogers; Dr. Eckleburg
Still waiting to hear the verse in scripture where we are given faith as the result of our regeneration (born again), not born again thru faith.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

46 posted on 02/28/2010 2:01:50 PM PST by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: firebrand
lol. I thank God daily that He has graced me with the desire and ability to do His will, by His grace, for His glory.

The natural man is blind and deaf. He possesses a heart of stone and his mind is filled with superstition and rebellion.

The spiritual man who has been reborn by the Holy Spirit has been given new ears and new eyes and a heart of flesh and his mind has been renewed to understand God's word, to enable him to obey, repent and believe.

If that makes me a "robot," then all I can say is "Thank you, dear Lord. Thank you."

"“Our righteousness is in Him, and our hope depends, not upon the exercise of grace in us, but upon the fullness of grace and love in Him, and upon His obedience unto death” -- John Newton, pastor and author of "Amazing Grace."

47 posted on 02/28/2010 2:06:55 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Mr Rogers

Much of your understanding of Scripture is not Scriptural, whether it is on someone else’s thread or your own.


48 posted on 02/28/2010 2:08:02 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: the_conscience; Dr. Eckleburg

That a person must be born again to understand the things of God, I agree.

But when Jesus raised Lazarus so that they might believe, was belief a gift he gave them after regeneration, or belief something they were responsible for?

When Jesus said, “I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me”, was Jesus lying? Was he mocking them? Was he claiming that he would give them belief?

Or did he do miracles so that they might believe, and those who rejected him would be responsible for their unbelief?

Jesus said, “You refuse to come to me that you may have life”, not, “You do not have life, so you refuse to come”!


49 posted on 02/28/2010 2:12:34 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Bainbridge; RnMomof7; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock; CondoleezzaProtege; blue-duncan; the_conscience; ...
But you won’t get anywhere: they are elect, and are predestined to believe that.

"They?" Do you consider yourself among God's elect, a member of His family?

All Trinitarian Christians are elect. Whether or not they know that for sure, or only guess at it, isn't really the question. God's grace through faith in Christ is what saves. Grace saves, which often brings with it a confident assurance of the power and intention of the Triune God to redeem those whom He has named as His own from before the foundation of the world.

Sometimes that assurance is hid from men, and that's too bad. But if they are Trinitarian Christians, they are still among the elect of God since true faith in Christ is the emblem of our adoption by God.

I always say that I will be more willing to listen to a Calvinist who says he believes in the 5 points and that he is not one of the elect.

While that sounds clever, it is gibberish. To believe the Gospel is to be saved. And THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM are simply a clear declaration of Biblical teaching. Nothing more; nothing less.

1) All men are fallen and none is righteous, save Jesus Christ. 2) God saves whom He will for His glory by imputing Christ's righteousness to His family. 3) Christ has redeemed His sheep, the children of God, through His obedience and His righteousness and His good work on the cross. 4) Grace accomplishes all God intends; grace does not fail. 5) Christ will lose none whom the Father has given to Him.

That's the assurance found in Scripture in which we rejoice.

A BRIEF AND UNTECHNICAL STATEMENT OF THE REFORMED FAITH
by Benjamin B. Warfield

50 posted on 02/28/2010 2:15:08 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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