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A different take on the Carthage mob -- BYU Studies Symposium
Mormon Times ^ | March 13, 2010 | Nick Newman

Posted on 03/13/2010 4:21:42 PM PST by Colofornian

PROVO, Utah -- Those who were responsible for the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum on June 27, 1844, were not who might you think they were, according to one presenter at the BYU Studies 50th Anniversary Symposium.

Debra Marsh, a master's student at the University of Utah, presented evidence Friday that the members of the Illinois mob that sought to put an end to Mormonism at Carthage Jail didn't rot away because of "the Mormon curse," as N.B. Lundwall claimed in his book, "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," but went on to live normal lives.

Another characterization from B.H. Roberts found in the introduction to volume 6 of the History of the Church, which called the mob a "criminal element" and "ruffians" isn't correct, either, Marsh said.

Marsh, in her paper "Respectable Assassins: A Collective Biography and Socioeconomic Study of the Carthage Mob," said that contrary to popular belief the mobsters did not suffer for their actions, and actually were respected people who went on to greater accomplishments.

"The Carthage mob members lived normal life spans, through which they prospered financially," Marsh said. "They ran for and won political office, and generally appear to be protected and honored by their fellow citizens for their participation in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. "

Marsh used a list of 89 men compiled by Sheriff Jacob Backenstos and a variety of other records to paint a picture of who these mobsters were. According to her research, while they came from the same regions of the country as others who lived in the area, mobsters were generally older than the general male population of Hancock County and were mostly learned professionals, businessmen and farmers who had their own property. The mob also had 16 men who held 24 different public offices, including state senator and U.S. senator. A large majority of the mob would have been considered in the upper class.

"This was a group of men that represented the top tier of Hancock county, in regards to power and socioeconomic status."

Marsh then showed what happened to the mob after the martyrdom of the Smith brothers.

"Most of these individuals seem to have lived normal life spans in which they prospered," Marsh said. "Obviously, living a long life doesn't necessarily translate into good fortune. But if financial well-being is an indicator of the quality of one's life, then they lived quite well."

In 1850, the average earnings of the mob were barely more than the U.S. average, with mobsters earning $1,540 compared to $1,050 for the average American. But at the end of the decade, mobsters had increased their earnings by 249 percent, or five times the national average, earning an average of $7,842 compared to $2,140. One member, Mark Aldrich, was extremely successful in the California Gold Rush and later became a merchant in Tucson, Ariz., with his personal estate valued at $50,000. Another, Jacob C. Davis, ended up being a state senator and eventually a U.S. senator for Illinois. Mob members held 24 public offices between 1844 and 1856.

Marsh also referred to various historical accounts in which men list being part of the proceedings at Carthage Jail as one of their life's greatest achievements.

Seeing the killers of Mormonism's founder doesn't take away from Marsh's testimony of the church, and she says it shouldn't bother other Mormons, either.

"Some people are uncomfortable with the idea that the mob members prospered. I know that the notion that an unseen hand dispersing justice to the wicked is very comforting," Marsh said.

"However, it quite simply isn't true. The wicked often prosper in this life. As many of us believe, though, we all will have to account for our actions, if not in this life, in the next. The most important fact remains, regardless of what happened to the Carthage mob: Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it."


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From the article: "The Carthage mob members lived normal life spans, through which they prospered financially," Marsh said. "They ran for and won political office, and generally appear to be protected and honored by their fellow citizens for their participation in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith."

#1...this wasn't your "normal assassination." Two of the four Mormons were slipped pistols -- and they used them.

LDS Official History of the Church:

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket." "The pistol was a six-shooting revolver, of Allen's patent; it belonged to me, and was one that I furnished to Brother Wheelock when he talked of going with me to the east, previous to our coming to Carthage. I have it now in my possession. Brother Wheelock went out on some errand, and was not suffered to return."

Not only that, but Hyrum Smith, who died, suffered a mysterious back wound...more on that next post.

1 posted on 03/13/2010 4:21:42 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
More from the Official History of the Church (Vol. 7, pp 100-103):

"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died."

And: "It certainly was a terrible scene: streams of fire as thick as my arm passed by me as these men fired, and, unarmed as we were, it looked like certain death. I remember feeling as though my time had come, but I do not know when, in any critical position, I was more calm, unruffled, energetic, and acted with more promptness and decision. It certainly was far from pleasant to be so near the muzzles of those firearms as they belched forth their liquid flames and deadly balls. While I was engaged in parrying the guns, Brother Joseph said, 'That's right, Brother Taylor, parry them off as well as you can.' These were the last words I ever heard him speak on earth."

From two other sources, as cited by No1 Mormon Joseph Smith armed in jail :

Reporter John Hay, of the Atlantic Monthly identified three men who were shot by Joseph Smith: John Wills in the arm, William Vorhees in the shoulder, and William Gallagher in the face. Hay was a son of Charles Hay, a surgeon of the Carthage militia and apparently a member of the mob. "Smith had two loaded six-barrelled revolvers in his room. How a man on trial for capital offences came to be supplied with such luxuries is a mystery that perhaps only one man could fully have solved; and as General Deming, the Jack-Mormon sheriff, died soon after, and left no explanation of the matter, investigation is effectually baffled. But the four shots which I have chronicled, and two which had no billet, exhausted one pistol, and the enemy gave Smith no time to use the other. Severely wounded as he was, he ran to the window, which was open to receive the fresh June air, and half leaped, half fell, into the jail yard below." - John Hay, "The Mormon Prophet's Tragedy," Atlantic Monthly (December 1869) 671-678.

The same Web site says: In another conemporary account from a faithful Latter-Day Saint: "Of the three barrels discharged by Joseph, it is believed he hit three men: an Irishman named Wells-who was in the mob from his love of a brawl-in the arm; Voorhees-an oversized kid from Bear Creek known for his lack of good sense-in the shoulder; and a man named Gallagher-a Southerner from the Mississippi Bottom-in the face." "Two other men were known to get hit in the hall, one a man named Townsend from Fort Madison, Iowa Territory, who died nine months later from the arm wound that wouldn't heal, and another named Mills, who was shot in the arm." - Elder Reed Blake, 24 Hours to Martyrdom, p. 129

So as these mob members were shot down by Joseph Smith and perhaps another left standing in room, how is it that Joseph's brother, Hyrum, came to have a back wound?

From a Mormon author: "...it was found that the wound that killed Hyrum was sustained in his face while he was apparently holding the door against the mobbers. This was verified by one of the survivors, Willard Richards. Also discovered, however, was a wound in his lower back. The mystery of that wound is hard to explain if he was shot in the face and, falling backward, never moved as the survivors later testified. One report state he was shot in the back by a rifleman outside the window, but this is not a credible report since the...room is on the second floor and the door is some distance from the window. Other wounds found on his body were in front, sustained as he lay on the floor. But that back wound, after 160 years, is still a mystery." (Lds author George W. Givens, 500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History, Bonneville Books, 2004, p. 46)

Did Joseph Smith accidentally shoot his own brother?

2 posted on 03/13/2010 4:31:00 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: Colofornian

During one of these conversations Dr. Richards remarked: “Brother Joseph, if it is necessary that you die in this matter, and if they will take me in your stead, I will suffer for you.” At another time, when conversing about deliverance, I said, “Brother Joseph, if you will permit it, and say the word, I will have you out of this prison in five hours, if the jail has to come down to do it.” My idea was to go to Nauvoo, and collect, a force sufficient, as I considered the whole affair a legal farce, and a flagrant outrage upon our liberty and rights. Brother Joseph refused.


3 posted on 03/13/2010 4:36:28 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: Colofornian; reaganaut
Voorhees-an oversized kid from Bear Creek known for his lack of good sense-

LOL! The Voorhees family are laywers here in South Dakota; Voorhees Hall is the main building of Huron College. It has to be the same family - too funny!

Joseph shooting his brother in the back is totally believable, too.

4 posted on 03/13/2010 5:32:34 PM PST by mrreaganaut (Battlestar Galactica: Another Testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints)
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To: Colofornian

Just as important was the “authorization” of the mob, if not its well known motivation.

Being outsiders, it began with a diplomatic effort of sorts, in which the Smith’s endeavored to get a political alliance with the Republican party, offering to encourage “the Mormon vote” for Republicans in exchange for some degree of political protection of the Mormons by the Republicans.

At the time, however, the US had not introduced “the Australian (secret) ballot”, and the Mormon rank and file were overwhelmingly Democrat, and apparently didn’t get the message, or disobeyed.

The end result was that the Democrats, who already hated Mormons, were joined by the Republicans, who felt they had been double crossed, in essentially “authorizing” the mob to attack the Mormons.

That is, while the political parties didn’t agitate the mob, they no longer had any reason to stay the mob’s hand in its violence.


5 posted on 03/13/2010 5:43:56 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: Colofornian

Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it.”
_______________________________________________

Really ???

What exactly ???


6 posted on 03/13/2010 5:52:12 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: BlueMoose

Did Joseph Smith accidentally shoot his own brother?
________________________________________

WOW


7 posted on 03/13/2010 5:53:32 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

“contrary to popular belief the mobsters did not suffer for their actions, and actually were respected people who went on to greater accomplishments.

“The Carthage mob members lived normal life spans, through which they prospered financially,” Marsh said. “They ran for and won political office, and generally appear to be protected and honored by their fellow citizens for their participation in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.”

So what’s your point, since the mob people didn’t suffer a curse it must have been ok for them to have killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith? You must be really pleased.


8 posted on 03/13/2010 5:56:16 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Colofornian

The wicked often prosper in this life.
__________________________________________________

Yeah...Joey Smith didnt do too badly...

Brigham Young was a multi millionaire in land and money by todays standards...


9 posted on 03/13/2010 5:56:25 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Texan Tory

Did you read the whole thing ???

The author is a mormon...

The Mormon Times is part of the MORMON owned and controlled newspaper, Deseret news...


10 posted on 03/13/2010 5:58:26 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

“Marsh, in her paper “Respectable Assassins: A Collective Biography and Socioeconomic Study of the Carthage Mob,”...”

Don’t scholars of American history know when to use the word “prosopography”?


11 posted on 03/13/2010 6:02:34 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Texan Tory

it must have been ok for them to have killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith?
______________________________________

Since you dont seem to agree with the death of Hyrum Smith, would you have the same objection if it had been Joey Smith that killed his own brother ???

Should the mormon god revenge the death of Hyrum ???

Maybe that’s why Joey Smith didnt prosper or live long after he killed his own brother...

Hyrum’s killer did suffer a curse...


12 posted on 03/13/2010 6:05:36 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

“The author is a mormon...”

I was referring to the poster, not the author. He’s always happy to get his digs in, always happy to dredge up whatever crap comes along so long as it doesn’t ever put a Mormon or Mormonism in a positive light. Why doesn’t he just come right out and say that he’s glad that Joseph and Hyrum Smith were shot and that the perps prospered thereafter?


13 posted on 03/13/2010 6:10:06 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Colofornian
Did Joseph Smith accidentally shoot his own brother?

Not according to the sequence of events recounted by John Taylor, which you yourself quoted:

I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. . . .

Hyrum Smith was shot before Joseph Smith returned fire with his six-shooter. Moreover, Joseph "opened the door slightly" and fired at the attackers outside the room; Hyrum was on the floor inside the room.

14 posted on 03/13/2010 6:12:45 PM PST by Logophile
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To: Tennessee Nana

“dont seem to agree with the death of Hyrum Smith”

Of course I don’t, do you? I don’t think Joseph Smith shot his brother, but in the ‘fog of war’ anything is possible. If a cop unintentionally kills his partner in a gunfight, it doesn’t make him a copkiller.


15 posted on 03/13/2010 6:15:10 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Tennessee Nana

“Maybe that’s why Joey Smith didnt prosper or live long after he killed his own brother...

Hyrum’s killer did suffer a curse...”

So based on such limited evidence, you automatically conclude that Joseph Smith intentionally killed his own brother during the mob attack? People talk about Bush Derangement Syndrome, you definitely have Mormon Derangement Syndrome. You are mentally unbalanced.


16 posted on 03/13/2010 6:21:41 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Texan Tory

always happy to get his digs in, always happy to dredge up whatever crap comes along so long
_____________________________________________

So this article is propaganda ???

I agree with you...

Joey Smith was a pagan conman and sexual predator..

This bit here is part of the objectionable lies...

“Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it.”


17 posted on 03/13/2010 6:21:46 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Texan Tory

So based on such limited evidence, you automatically conclude that Joseph Smith intentionally killed his own brother during the mob attack?
_________________________________________

So based on such limited evidence, you automatically conclude that (I said) Joseph Smith intentionally killed his own brother during the mob attack?

No, the intentional was the murders of two men by Joey Smith...

While Joey Smith was trying to murder some more he could have accidently shot his own brother in the back...

Joey Smith was intentionally shooting to kill...

Did his brother get in the way of the gun held in the hand of a terrified and desparate Joey Smith ???

Since there is a claim that Hyru7m Smith was “martyred” and the killer should have been cursed by the mormon gods, that would place Joey Smith, who may have shot hyrum IN THE BACK, as the killer or at least one who contributed to his death, and therefore Joey Smith would have been cursed...

The idea I believe was not the intention or the cause but the end result that brought about Hyrum’s so called “martyrdom” and his assailants’ curse...

If Joey Smith was one of those would he not also warrant the same curse ???


18 posted on 03/13/2010 6:34:22 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Texan Tory

“dont seem to agree with the death of Hyrum Smith”

Of course I don’t, do you? .
_____________________________________________

How do you feel about the 3,000 that were murdered on 9/11 ???

How do you feel about the 50 million aborted babies ???


19 posted on 03/13/2010 6:37:57 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

“No, the intentional was the murders of two men by Joey Smith...”

When people are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more, that isn’t murder. It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law.


20 posted on 03/13/2010 6:38:47 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Texan Tory

I don’t think Joseph Smith shot his brother, but in the ‘fog of war’ anything is possible. If a cop unintentionally kills his partner in a gunfight, it doesn’t make him a copkiller
_____________________________________________

By the same token, it doesnt make thw dead man a martyr either...

and it wasnt a “war”

It was just a couple of criminals in jail for breaking the law...

The criminals had booze and guns in jail with them...


21 posted on 03/13/2010 6:40:21 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

“How do you feel about the 3,000 that were murdered on 9/11 ???

How do you feel about the 50 million aborted babies ???”

Pissed.


22 posted on 03/13/2010 6:42:10 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Texan Tory

When people are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more, that isn’t murder. It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law.
_____________________________________________

That’s how I see it too..

If Joey Smith had not had guns in jail with him...

and if he not murdered those 2 men, he probably would not have got shot by those men shooting back to defend themseves...

The deaths of Joey Smith and Hyrum Smith was just that...

justifiable homicide


23 posted on 03/13/2010 6:44:22 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Texan Tory

BTW Joey Smith was all liquered up...

They had been drinking ...

Joey Smith might have been shooting wildly all over the room...

Easy to shoot your own brother when you have a snoot full...


24 posted on 03/13/2010 6:46:12 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
Really ??? What exactly ???

What exactly did Joseph Smith do for the salvation of men? Off the top of my head, I can think of several things:

1. Joseph Smith translated, by the gift and power of God, the ancient record known as the Book of Mormon.

2. Acting under the direction Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith organized the Church of Jesus Christ.

3. Joseph Smith received additional revelations and commandments from Jesus Christ pertaining to important topics such as the plan of salvation.

4. Joseph Smith received the power from God to seal on earth and in heaven.

I could go on, but those accomplishments are enough to establish the importance of Joseph Smith's work.

25 posted on 03/13/2010 6:56:00 PM PST by Logophile
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To: Tennessee Nana

That’s how I see it too..

“If Joey Smith had not had guns in jail with him...

and if he not murdered those 2 men, he probably would not have got shot by those men shooting back to defend themseves...

The deaths of Joey Smith and Hyrum Smith was just that...

justifiable homicide”

You are really nuts.


26 posted on 03/13/2010 7:09:46 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
Smith’s endeavored to get a political alliance with the Republican party

Which was founded some 10 years after his death.

27 posted on 03/13/2010 7:23:20 PM PST by T. P. Pole
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To: Colofornian
Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it."

Liars, reprobates, flim flam men, con men, blasphemers.........are not martyrs for God. There are people shot in a gun battle just like any other thug.

28 posted on 03/13/2010 7:41:02 PM PST by svcw (For the last 2000 yrs Christians have been trying to sew up the curtain.)
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To: Texan Tory

I am not the poster of the thread but I will tell you those two thugs got what they deserved.


29 posted on 03/13/2010 7:42:13 PM PST by svcw (For the last 2000 yrs Christians have been trying to sew up the curtain.)
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To: svcw

“I am not the poster of the thread but I will tell you those two thugs got what they deserved.”

Really? If they were truly criminals, then I should think that what they deserved was a trial by jury in a court of law based on the charges against them, not execution by a mob. You think killing by a mob is what they deserved, not a trial by jury?


30 posted on 03/13/2010 7:58:53 PM PST by Texan Tory
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To: Texan Tory
If we were talking about today, you have a point. We are talking about then.
There were guns and liquor snuck into the jail, there was a gun fight and they lost. If you want to participate in a gun battle you have to be prepared to live (or die) by the consequences of your actions.
31 posted on 03/13/2010 8:02:49 PM PST by svcw (For the last 2000 yrs Christians have been trying to sew up the curtain.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Ah, wait for it......Smith died 1844 Republican Party years later.
Jumping the gun here yefrageturabrumuy.


32 posted on 03/13/2010 8:05:18 PM PST by svcw (For the last 2000 yrs Christians have been trying to sew up the curtain.)
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To: Texan Tory
When people are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more, that isn’t murder. It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law.

Brilliant point, if it had not been a gun battle in a jail. Where did Smith get the guns? It is murder if you are in jail and shoot someone (or several and they die).

33 posted on 03/13/2010 8:08:48 PM PST by svcw (For the last 2000 yrs Christians have been trying to sew up the curtain.)
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To: Logophile

Do you even know what Salvation means?


34 posted on 03/13/2010 8:10:36 PM PST by svcw (For the last 2000 yrs Christians have been trying to sew up the curtain.)
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To: svcw; T. P. Pole

Most people get a blank expression on their face if you refer to the Whigs. In this case “those who were not Democrats” sounds forced. But the principle is still sound, some political protection from the Democrat governor, at a very chaotic time.


35 posted on 03/13/2010 9:12:08 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: svcw

It all depends on how it really went down. It just seems doubtful to me that Smith would have fired until he was fired upon. If I’m outnumbered like they were, I’m hoping law enforcement will intervene, so I’m not going to fire except as a last resort, i.e. shots are already being fired in my direction. Liquor could impair judgment of course, I’d be curious to know of any evidence that any of the jailed men were intoxicated.


36 posted on 03/13/2010 10:31:47 PM PST by Texan Tory
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"We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with god at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us--freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good.-- "

So much more HERE..............
from the good folks of Nauvoo who were soiled by Joe Smith. And BOY were they rightfully ticked after Joe Smith ordered their printing press destroyed.

Joe Smith was a con man, an arrestee,a fake profit (and false prophet); a chump extraordinairre.

He brought his own brother into harm's way and his brother Hyrum was killed.

Coward Joe tried to escape, was rightfully shot, and fell out a window.

Case closed.

(except Joe still needs to be charged for smugling a gun into a jail).

37 posted on 03/13/2010 10:59:36 PM PST by NoRedTape
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To: Colofornian
The most important fact remains, regardless of what happened to the Carthage mob: Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it.

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 135:3

Strange...

This is not QUITE the way that It's been told before:

"I have more to boast about than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I."

— Joseph Smith

I guess WE* had to RE-translate what JS said - similar to JS' RE-translation of the KJV Bible.


D&C 135:1 To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the amartyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch.


SO... just WHO are the WE that wrote 135?

38 posted on 03/14/2010 4:31:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
D&C 135:1

To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o’clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.


Marsh used a list of 89 men compiled by Sheriff Jacob Backenstos and a variety of other records to paint a picture of who these mobsters were.

39 posted on 03/14/2010 4:34:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
In 1850, the average earnings of the mob were barely more than the U.S. average, with mobsters earning $1,540 compared to $1,050 for the average American.

barely?

I would think that 50% is a bit more than BARELY!!

40 posted on 03/14/2010 4:35:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texan Tory
So what’s your point, since the mob people didn’t suffer a curse it must have been ok for them to have killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith?

That's a stretch.

Since it didn't rain last Thursday in Dallas, it must be ok if Ft. Worth children go thirsty!

Happy NOW?

41 posted on 03/14/2010 4:38:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: vladimir998
Don’t scholars of American history know when to use the word “prosopography”?

Would those folks be the one's who've read the Book of MORMON and labled it 'prosaic'?

42 posted on 03/14/2010 4:42:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texan Tory
Why doesn’t he just come right out and say that he’s glad that Joseph and Hyrum Smith were shot and that the perps prospered thereafter?

Uh...

Maybe because he ISN'T??

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

43 posted on 03/14/2010 4:45:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texan Tory
So based on such limited evidence, you automatically conclude that Joseph Smith intentionally killed his own brother during the mob attack?

Where, in her response, do YOU read THIS??

44 posted on 03/14/2010 4:47:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texan Tory
You are mentally unbalanced.
45 posted on 03/14/2010 4:47:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texan Tory
When people are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more, that isn’t murder. It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law.

Using YOUR example of the POLICE in reply number 15...

When POLICE are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more; that isn’t murder?

It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law; and you do BIG time!

46 posted on 03/14/2010 4:51:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
 
1. Joseph Smith translated, by the gift and power of God, the ancient record known as the Book of Mormon.



The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.
 
 No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.


 

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.


Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:



     .
 

     .
 

      .
 



What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.


47 posted on 03/14/2010 4:55:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
2. Acting under the direction Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith organized the Church of Jesus Christ.

Which fell apart after his death into different groups...

48 posted on 03/14/2010 4:59:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
4. Joseph Smith received the power from God to seal on earth and in heaven.

Oh??

Matthew 16:19
I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven; and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven."

49 posted on 03/14/2010 5:04:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texan Tory
You are really nuts.

Today is is called:

Suicide by cop.

50 posted on 03/14/2010 5:05:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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