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Muslim modesty: Head coverings a symbol of faith or oppression? (Mormon Times Article)OPEN
Mormon Times ^ | March 22, 2010 | Nicole Warburton

Posted on 03/22/2010 2:46:52 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

Muslim modesty: Head coverings a symbol of faith or oppression?

By Nicole Warburton

Deseret News
Published: 2009-08-22 00:54:18

It is probably one of the most visible and controversial symbols of Islam.

Westerners often view the hijab, or head covering, worn by Muslim women as oppressive. Even among members of the Islamic faith, it is subject of debate.

How should it be worn?

Does it need to be worn?

Is it a choice or requirement?

In recent months, the hijab and other forms of Islamic coverings have come under scrutiny in the media and by politicians. In June, French president Nicolas Sarkozy suggested women who completely cover their faces by wearing burqas are silent prisoners and that the practice is a "debasement of women."

Those comments have translated into debate over why Muslim women cover at all.

For Maysa Kergaye, coordinator of the Utah Islamic Speakers Bureau, the reason to veil is simple: It's a requirement of the Islamic religion. Beyond that, it is something that serves as a reminder of her beliefs and a "shield" to help protect her from doing the wrong things and being in the wrong place.

Kergaye said she does not feel diminished as result of wearing her hijab.

"Islam actually came and liberated women," she said. "It said they are equal and should not be viewed as a piece of meat. They're humans. They are individuals who do not have to sell their body. They should use their brains."

The tradition of women veiling their heads has been around for centuries, even among early Christians, according to Frank Griffel, professor of Islamic Studies at Yale University. The rules for its use among members of the Islamic faith can be found in Sura 24 of the Quran, where both men and women are told to guard their modesty.

In regard to women, it reads: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms." The rest of the scripture clarifies that women only need to cover in front of males who are not family.

Because the verses are not explicit, there are a few Muslims who believe modesty does not require covering, however, religious text clarifies it beyond any doubt, according to Kergaye. Some cultures are more liberal, while others have more conservative methods of dress and types of headscarves.

But in the United States, where Muslims are a clear minority, there are challenges to wearing something as visible as the hijab, according to Sarah Ahmad, a junior at Weber State University and former president of the WSU Muslim Student Association.

She has heard stories of women getting turned down for jobs as result of their head covering. And Ahmad believes people view Muslims who cover their heads differently than if they don't cover.

She currently does not wear a head covering but wants to in the future. She is worried she would experience prejudice.

"I feel that it is something that would add a whole new complexity to what I do," said Ahmad, who grew up in Brigham City. "I question myself if I am ready to do that."

But she doesn't view the covering as oppressive. In fact, her sister Maryam, who is 17, said her parents have encouraged her to wait until she is 18 years old to cover because they don't want people to think she is being forced to do it.

"I know Muslim women in the West, we think it's insulting for people to assume we are forced to wear it," Maryam said. "We don't want people to assume we have no free will. It is our decision."

In her view, wearing a hijab is a way to actually help women focus more on themselves versus outward physical appearance.

People are also more likely to judge a Muslim woman on character versus looks if she dresses modestly, said Maryam.

"Society wants women to have shiny hair, to be thin and have nice skin," she said. "You see teen girls bingeing and throwing up food, suffering from self-esteem issues and I always wonder how that is not a form of oppression."

Jen'nan Read, associate professor of sociology and global health at Duke University, said she believes one of the reasons people have misconceptions about Muslims in the U.S. is because there are so few members of the faith here to fight the myths.

Oftentimes, the only information people have is from the news, where stories frequently run about women who are oppressed as result of cultural practices, not the Islamic faith, Read said.

"The religion has been linked with terrorism and with gender roles," she said. "We all compartmentalize and I think for the average person it is easy to immediately jump to the wrong conclusion."

From her perspective, the key to removing prejudices is for more contact between Muslims and non-Muslims. And in fact, women such as the Ahmad sisters and Kergaye encourage questions.

"Many people have the wrong idea of Islam," said Kergaye. "I'd rather answer a question than have someone go on having the wrong understanding."


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: beck; christian; glennbeck; lds; mormon; mormon1; muslim
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Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.
 
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1 posted on 03/22/2010 2:46:52 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Inman ping


2 posted on 03/22/2010 2:47:24 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes.)
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To: greyfoxx39

And yet mormon females had to wear a veil at one time...


3 posted on 03/22/2010 2:51:36 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39
There sure is an infinity between mormons and muslims.
My cover is my hair (such as it is now).
4 posted on 03/22/2010 2:53:06 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: Tennessee Nana
And yet mormon females had to wear a veil at one time...

Really? Like a hijib sort of veil? Who made them?

5 posted on 03/22/2010 2:56:04 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: greyfoxx39
"We don't want people to assume we have no free will. It is our decision."

Yes, they make the decision of wearing the hajib or being beaten ... that's a pretty tough decision to make. Oh, they are so brave.

Here's the part that bothers me; we have given millions of lives over our history, of our best who have died on foreign shores to give these people freedom to live as they will. For ingrateful people to be free from tyranny; then we have religious sects who wish to inflict tyranny on the entire globe, comeing here and complaining about how they feel 'persecuted' for wearing the hajib.

Darling, if you don't like it here; you are free to leave. No one invited you, you chose to come here. Now that you are here, it is expected that you will adopt OUR ways, we are under no compuncture to change our ways. While youa re here, you will see people who are free to change from Jewish to Catholocism, to Mormonism, to Buddhist and even Athiesm without stigma. Try that at home, then tell me about how rough you have it here.

6 posted on 03/22/2010 2:56:38 PM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: greyfoxx39

It is a symbol of faith if chosen by women, a symbol of oppression if forced on women. Seems pretty straight forward.

In most cases, it is likely a symbol of faith in Western democracies). In eastern and/or less libertarian countries, I think it is more prone to being forced on women, and thus a symbol of oppression.

SnakeDoc


7 posted on 03/22/2010 2:57:15 PM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant ... that even a god-king can bleed." - 300)
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To: svcw

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God. 1 Coreinthians 11:13-16


8 posted on 03/22/2010 2:58:26 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39

Mormon men put a veil over the face of their dead wife in their coffins. At the resurrection (according to LDS belief) the man is resurrected first and >then< they remove the veil off the wife’s face and she’s resurrected. That’s why Mormon women will hold on to their husband no matter what ... no veil removal, no resurrection.


9 posted on 03/22/2010 2:59:42 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: greyfoxx39
From the article: Jen'nan Read, associate professor of sociology and global health at Duke University, said she believes one of the reasons people have misconceptions about Muslims in the U.S. is because there are so few members of the faith here to fight the myths. Oftentimes, the only information people have is from the news..."The religion has been linked with terrorism and with gender roles," she said. "We all compartmentalize and I think for the average person it is easy to immediately jump to the wrong conclusion."

Translation: What? The "News" has been "wrong" to link terrorism or suppression of women with Islam??? These are just "myths" and "misconceptions."

(Yeah, this is what Mormons say, too)

10 posted on 03/22/2010 3:00:13 PM PDT by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Reminds me of...

All she lacks is a light-saber.


11 posted on 03/22/2010 3:00:48 PM PDT by Paul Ross (Ronald Reagan-1987:"We are always willing to be trade partners buTt never trade patsies.")
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To: Tennessee Nana

The problem goes to forced extremism, no matter what religion.


12 posted on 03/22/2010 3:02:49 PM PDT by rstrahan
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To: Tennessee Nana

Don’t think LDS women were stoned or beheaded for not wearing a veil ...


13 posted on 03/22/2010 3:03:46 PM PDT by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: SnakeDoctor
"The Greek and Roman Churches, which have been called Christian, and which take the name of Christians as a cloak, have worshipped innumerable idols. On this account, on the simple subject of the Deity and His worship, if nothing more, I should rather incline, of the two, after all my early traditions, education, and prejudices, to the side of Mahomet, for on this point he is on the side of truth, and the Christian world on the side of idolatry and heathenism." – FLDS/LDS Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.38
14 posted on 03/22/2010 3:03:50 PM PDT by SENTINEL (SGT USMC COMBAT VET)
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To: Domandred
"Now, if we take Mahometanism during those dark ages, and the corruptions that are so universally prevalent over the earth, and the idolatrous systems of religion, falsely called Christianity, and weigh them in a balance; with all my education in favor of Christian nations and Christian powers, and Christian institutions, so called, with all my prejudices of early youth, and habits of thought and reading, my rational faculties would compel me to admit that the Mahometan history and Mahometan doctrine was a standard raised against the most corrupt and abominable idolatry that over perverted our earth, found in the creeds and worship of Christians – FLDS/LDS Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.40
15 posted on 03/22/2010 3:05:20 PM PDT by SENTINEL (SGT USMC COMBAT VET)
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To: rstrahan

Correct. But see post #9.


16 posted on 03/22/2010 3:08:39 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: Domandred

....Regarding Ishmael and his ancestors(muslims), the sons of Sariah.

Genesis 16:12 (New International Version)

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”


17 posted on 03/22/2010 3:08:50 PM PDT by SENTINEL (SGT USMC COMBAT VET)
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To: SkyDancer; T Minus Four

#9

That might be what I mean...

I know there’s something about women and veils..


18 posted on 03/22/2010 3:12:04 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Lots of interesting stuff out there that the LDS church don’t want people to know ... they particularly get upset when you mention the Mountain Meadow Massacre ... they say “Oh no no no - it wasn’t us” ....


19 posted on 03/22/2010 3:21:02 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: greyfoxx39
Moslem women are seen by moslem men as cattle.always have been...always will be.Yet another reason (of *many*) for it to be called The Religion of Pieces.
20 posted on 03/22/2010 3:21:31 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Host The Beer Summit-->Win The Nobel Peace Prize!)
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To: greyfoxx39
"Islam actually came and liberated women," she said. "It said they are equal and should not be viewed as a piece of meat. They're humans. They are individuals who do not have to sell their body. They should use their brains."

I guess she never read the Koran then.

But IF it's true, someone needs to tell the muzzie men about that. They don't appear to have gotten the message.

21 posted on 03/22/2010 3:23:38 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Tennessee Nana; SkyDancer; T Minus Four

Mormon women had veils they wore during part of the Temple ceremonies. And they were buried with them of course.


22 posted on 03/22/2010 3:27:11 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

I think that’s the veil the husband puts over the face of his deceased wife ....


23 posted on 03/22/2010 3:28:39 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SkyDancer

It can, but it doesn’t have to be anymore. There are several variable that can affect that but a husband is the first choice, iirc.


24 posted on 03/22/2010 3:31:54 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: greyfoxx39

When I was in grad school, muslim women in gradschool that I interacted with would choose a logical compromise. They wore what I called the “jackie onassis getup”.

Big dark glasses and a sheer headscarf.

Seemed pretty intelligent choice to me. They get to keep their muslim modesty while still feeling westernized.


25 posted on 03/22/2010 3:37:58 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: reaganaut

So it’s the husband who will resurrect the wife after he is. No wonder they’re so scared .... what an insane cult LDS is.


26 posted on 03/22/2010 3:38:29 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: greyfoxx39

If the muslim in question is a cracker, it’s a sign of oppression. If she is a person of color, it is a beautiful reminder of the gorgeous mosaic of humanity.


27 posted on 03/22/2010 3:39:40 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hinneh, 'Anokhi sholeach lakhem 'et 'Eliyyah HaNavi'; lifney bo' yom HaShem hagadol vehanora'!)
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To: SkyDancer

I trust Mormons more - they haven’t killed anyone in more than 150 years.


28 posted on 03/22/2010 3:41:43 PM PDT by tbw2 (Freeper sci-fi - "Humanity's Edge" - on amazon.com)
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To: SkyDancer

So it’s the husband who will resurrect the wife after he is.

- - - - - - -
Yes, the husband will pull the wife ‘through the veil’, which is also part of the temple ceremony.


29 posted on 03/22/2010 3:41:45 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: tbw2; SkyDancer

I trust Mormons more - they haven’t killed anyone in more than 150 years.
__________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Brigham Young has only been dead for 130 years...


30 posted on 03/22/2010 3:44:07 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: tbw2

I trust Mormons more - they haven’t killed anyone in more than 150 years.

- - - - - - - -
RIIIIGHHHTTT.


31 posted on 03/22/2010 3:45:45 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Tennessee Nana

Doesn’t matter - neither have the Baptists or Catholics or Presbyterians ... but I digress. Whenever you kill/murder in the name of G-d I bet He’ll be a bit testy with you .... “YOU DID WHAT IN MY NAME???!!!”


32 posted on 03/22/2010 3:46:46 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SkyDancer

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated.

Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith’s followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith’s own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.
“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4]

In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith’s claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.
________________________________________
[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.
Lucy Mack Smith tells about Joey’s Tall Tales
we know Smith’s mother, Lucky Mack Smith, said about her 17 yo son, Joseph Smith, Junior


33 posted on 03/22/2010 3:48:44 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: tbw2

I trust Mormons more - they haven’t killed anyone in more than 150 years.
___________________________________________

How did that mormons aligning with Nazi Germany against the Jews work out ???

Just 60 through 75 years ago ???


34 posted on 03/22/2010 3:51:44 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: SkyDancer
Mormon men put a veil over the face of their dead wife in their coffins. At the resurrection (according to LDS belief) the man is resurrected first and >then< they remove the veil off the wife’s face and she’s resurrected. That’s why Mormon women will hold on to their husband no matter what ... no veil removal, no resurrection.

Not true.

We believe that every person who has lived and died -- man, woman, or child -- will be resurrected. It is a free and unconditional gift from God, and cannot be withheld by anyone else.

35 posted on 03/22/2010 4:16:54 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: SkyDancer

Mormon men put a veil over the face of their dead wife in their coffins. At the resurrection (according to LDS belief) the man is resurrected first and >then< they remove the veil off the wife’s face and she’s resurrected. That’s why Mormon women will hold on to their husband no matter what ... no veil removal, no resurrection.
______________________________________________________

Yes theres lots of mormon litertature aboput the wife being called out of her grave by her husband..

If he doesnt want to call her she just stays in the grave...

actually shes better off just staying in her grave...

In the mormon after life she woulod only be a sex slave in a mormon harem...


36 posted on 03/22/2010 4:28:26 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Logophile

Not true as the LDS religion states? If you’re LDS you might want to check your “sacred books” ...


37 posted on 03/22/2010 4:38:52 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SkyDancer
Not true as the LDS religion states? If you’re LDS you might want to check your “sacred books” ...

I am LDS, and I am fairly well acquainted with our standard works (the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price). I have not found in them any hint that a man can determine whether his wife is resurrected.

If you have found such a doctrine in the LDS scriptures, please provide a reference.

38 posted on 03/22/2010 4:47:55 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Tennessee Nana

I did not know that.


39 posted on 03/22/2010 4:50:26 PM PDT by tbw2 (Freeper sci-fi - "Humanity's Edge" - on amazon.com)
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To: Logophile

I don’t want to bore everyone here with a complete posting of the temple ritual of marriage which then gets into the resurrection part so here’s a good start. Read the paragraph halfway down.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/resurrectwife.htm


40 posted on 03/22/2010 5:00:26 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: Logophile; SkyDancer
LogophileNot True

We believe that every person who has lived and died -- man, woman, or child -- will be resurrected. It is a free and unconditional gift from God, and cannot be withheld by anyone else.

BUT..."But obedience to the commandments of God is requisite if one is to be resurrected with a celestial body. Laws leading to celestial glory will be discussed at this conference. Our challenge is to learn them and abide by them."

So what about the whole truth, Logophile?

Life After Life LDS.org

This great priesthood power of resurrection is vested in the Lord of this world. He taught that “all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matt. 28:18). Though he supplicated his Father for aid at the eleventh hour, the final victory over death was earned by the Son. These are his words:

“Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father” (John 10:17–18).

This power he subtly proclaimed when he said unto the Jews:

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. … But he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19–21).

The keys of the Resurrection repose securely with our Lord and Master. He said:

“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die” (John 11:25–26).

But obedience to the commandments of God is requisite if one is to be resurrected with a celestial body. Laws leading to celestial glory will be discussed at this conference. Our challenge is to learn them and abide by them.

I thank God for his Son, Jesus Christ, for his mission in mortality, and for his ministry as the resurrected Lord. He brought about his own resurrection. Testimonies of thousands, from ancient and modern times, attest to the truth that the resurrected Jesus is the Savior of mankind. He brought about a universal resurrection: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22; see also Mosiah 3:16).

His sacrifice and his glory assure that “the spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time”

41 posted on 03/22/2010 5:04:43 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes.)
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To: greyfoxx39
Being "resurrected" does not equate to being "saved" in mormonism. Their "saved" is "exaltation" and ONLY available to souls that have either alive or dead, been baptized and confirmed as members of the mormon church, and subjected to all the rituals and requirements demanded therin.

The Three Degrees of Glory

As the Prophet Joseph Smith was laboring on what we now call the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, he received a vision later recorded as Doctrine and Covenants section 76. Included in this revelation is a comparison of the three degrees of glory: the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms. Following is a brief description of each.

The Celestial Kingdom

The Lord compared celestial glory to that of the sun, “even the glory of God, the highest of all” (D&C 76:70; see also D&C 76:96). Those who will inherit this kingdom must do the following:

• Receive a testimony of Jesus and believe on His name (see D&C 76:51).

• Be baptized by immersion (see D&C 76:51).

• Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (see D&C 76:52).

• Obey the commandments and be washed and cleansed of all sins (see D&C 76:52).

• Overcome by faith (see D&C 76:53).

• Be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise (see D&C 76:53).

Those who qualify for the celestial kingdom will receive, among other blessings:

• Be of a company of angels, of the general assembly and church of Enoch and of the Firstborn (see D&C 76:54, 67).

• Receive the fulness, glory, and grace of the Father (see D&C 76:55, 56, 94).

• Be priests and kings of the Most High God (see D&C 76:56–59).

• Overcome all things (see D&C 76:60).

• Dwell forever in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).

• Be with Christ at the time of His Second Coming (see D&C 76:63).

• Come forth in the First Resurrection (see D&C 76:64–65).

• Go up unto Mount Zion and unto the heavenly city of God (see D&C 76:66).

• Minister to terrestrial and telestial beings (see D&C 76:87–88).

• Be able to have offspring, or in other words, gain the right to become eternal parents (see D&C 131:4).

The Lord further revealed the important doctrines of salvation for the dead and salvation of little children in the celestial kingdom:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

“Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; …

“… All children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:7–8, 10). Except for those whose mental abilities prevent them from reaching the age of accountability (see D&C 29:50), the age of accountability is eight (see D&C 68:25).

We do not know much about who will inherit two of the three degrees within the celestial kingdom. However, much has been said about the highest level in the celestial kingdom, or exaltation, because that is where the Father wants all of His children to live (see Moses 1:39). The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that temple marriage is the key to obtaining exaltation:

“In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

“And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

“He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:1–4).

“If a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; … and if [they] abide in my covenant …

“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting … because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:19–20).

More at above link.

42 posted on 03/22/2010 5:15:40 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes.)
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To: SkyDancer
I am not surprised you could not provide a reference in one of our "sacred books," as you called them.

You linked to an article by the professional anti-Mormon Sandra Tanner; but she does not provide a relevant reference to our standard works either.

In fact, Sandra Tanner admits in her opening sentence that "The LDS Church teaches that at the end of the world everyone will be resurrected."

43 posted on 03/22/2010 6:09:13 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: greyfoxx39
So what about the whole truth, Logophile?

What about it? The statement was made that a husband could prevent a wife from being resurrected. I stated that such is not the case.

Latter-day Saint doctrine is that every person who has lived and died -- man, woman, or child -- will be resurrected. It is a free and unconditional gift to all because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and cannot be withheld by a spouse, other family members, friends, or anyone else.

If we cannot agree on such a simple and straightforward doctrine, there is little point talking about what happens after the resurrection.

44 posted on 03/22/2010 6:12:31 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile

Funny that non-Mormons know more about what goes on in LDS theology than Mormons .... lots of your stuff is given in talks or other writings by your so-called prophets ... and the Tanners are not anti-Mormon. A statement all LDS followers like to use when their theology is questioned.


45 posted on 03/22/2010 6:14:36 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SkyDancer
Funny that non-Mormons know more about what goes on in LDS theology than Mormons ....

Alas, much of what non-Mormons think they know is simply not true.

Even Sandra Tanner admits that, according to LDS doctrine, all will be resurrected. No man can withhold that from his wife. Will you at least grant that much?

46 posted on 03/22/2010 6:25:45 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile

Well I got that first hand from a Mormon. I lived with a Mormon family for almost two years - the house was a magnet home where missionary’s could come for some family time, have their clothes done and a good home-cooked meal. We had plenty of discussions and this was one that came up ... I think you should delve into what really is going on in the LDS church and read the writings of your prophets .... really ....


47 posted on 03/22/2010 6:30:33 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: Logophile; colorcountry; Colofornian
If we cannot agree on such a simple and straightforward doctrine, there is little point talking about what happens after the resurrection.

Well, most folks are interested in what happens "after resurrection".

I said in my post 41: "BUT..."But obedience to the commandments of God is requisite if one is to be resurrected with a celestial body. Laws leading to celestial glory will be discussed at this conference. Our challenge is to learn them and abide by them."

...pointing out with source the fact that what non-mormons might consider "resurrection" is quite different from "being resurrected with a celestial body", which can ONLY be done according to mormon doctrine by meeting certain conditions.

Your statement "Latter-day Saint doctrine is that every person who has lived and died -- man, woman, or child -- will be resurrected. It is a free and unconditional gift to all because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and cannot be withheld by a spouse, other family members, friends, or anyone else." completely skirts the issue that according to mormon doctrine the "free and unconditional gift to all because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ," is not enough for a soul to make it into the mormon "heaven".

If you are going to post "milk" be prepared to have a little "meat" served alongside it. I didn't even mention that mormons believe Atonement" happened in Gethsemane rather than on the Cross.

48 posted on 03/22/2010 6:57:26 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes.)
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To: SkyDancer
Well I got that first hand from a Mormon.

Just one?

49 posted on 03/22/2010 6:58:20 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: greyfoxx39; Logophile
Your statement "Latter-day Saint doctrine is that every person who has lived and died -- man, woman, or child -- will be resurrected. It is a free and unconditional gift to all because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and cannot be withheld by a spouse, other family members, friends, or anyone else." completely skirts the issue that according to mormon doctrine the "free and unconditional gift to all because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ," is not enough for a soul to make it into the mormon "heaven".

More importantly, the Mormon version of the "atonement" doesn't even address the primary outcome of it! Full reconciliation with God!

The very word "atonement" was developed as a combo word -- at-one-ment -- meaning harmony, reconciliation. Mormons say, "See, we're giving away atonement to all!" -- yet when you ask them who will living forever in the presence of the Father -- is that "all?" (Nope)

They limit the honor of living in the Father's presence not only to Mormons, but temple Mormons.

So much for "reconciliation" for all -- it's outright deception!

50 posted on 03/22/2010 7:10:06 PM PDT by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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