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St. Peter and the Primacy of Rome
Ignatius Insigiht.com ^ | not given | Stephen K. Ray

Posted on 04/18/2010 6:47:04 PM PDT by Salvation

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To: srweaver

“You can keep making your circular argument all you want, but that doesn’t make it biblical.”

Sure it does.

“Jesus died so men can be saved, with two conditions — repentance and faith”

Jesus died so that we can be saved if we submit to him. Scripture says nothing about a ‘personal relationship’. Those are your interpolations. Scripture says we must submit ourselves to Christ, because Christ is God, not because he is our boyfriend.

He also says, we must be born again, through water and the Spirit. This means baptism.

“One day, along with the rest of those who have a personal relationship with Christ, I will constitute His bride, as I now (along with the rest of those who have a personal relationship with Him) constitute His body.”

What if he says, “I never knew you?” He calls for submission. He doesn’t want to be your buddy, or your brother. He is God. He wants you to give over your sinful nature to Him, without holding anything back.

“I don’t recall the Bible teaching that Jesus came to found the Roman Catholic church.”

It’s right there when he speaks to Simon Peter. “I shall establish my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail.

“You are correct, “the gates of hell will not prevail against Jesus’ church” — those who have a personal relationship with Him.”

Where does he say this? These are your interpolations, not His. He never says this. All he says is that he will establish His Church, and the gates of hell will not prevation.” Establish. As in create an organisation.


61 posted on 04/19/2010 10:45:49 AM PDT by BenKenobi ("we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be")
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To: Salvation
In this case it would have been as simple as proving from the Bible or from tradition that Peter, and subsequently his successors in Rome, had no primacy, no authority to rule in the Church.

It's a bit of a nonsense statement, as, as far as I know, no one has ever claimed Peter had "no authority" (or "primacy"...to use a fancier word). ALL the Apostles--the 12 Disciples and certain other eye-witnesses to the resurrected Christ, had primacy and authority to rule the Church--and that primacy is found primarily, if not exclusively, in one thing--their written testimony: The New Testament.

When a man leaves a will, he leaves 2 things: The written document, AND, the Executor. At no time does the Executor have more, or even equal legal authority as the written will itself. This is even true, later--if said will is disputed-- and the Executor swears that the written will is genuine and even discovers and arranges the written pages of that will.

This is the same as the early Roman and Catholic Church, relating to the Bible. Like an Executor, while left in charge, it didn't create the will, or the Bible, even as it preserved and recognized it, and therefore neither does it have equal or superior authority over God's will, and the Apostles' will, as expressed in holy Scripture.

The biblical evidence is clear--the dominant leading Apostle in the 20 years or so after Jesus' resurrection--was James, brother of Jesus. In Acts 15, the record of the 1st great Council of Jerusalem--where gentile Christians were formally recognized by the whole Church, without having to become Jewish, it is clear that a CONCILIAR form of government was followed (the leaders all decided together...), not at all a papal, or hierarchical form, which was facilitated by the leadership of James, not Peter... although Peter surely played a large part.

After this point in history, Paul clearly is the leader and husbandman of the nascent Gentile churches--planting many (many) congregations throughout Asia-Minor and Greece. The Roman Church, as a matter of fact, clearly existed BEFORE Peter ever got there (as Peter is not mentioned in Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome (Romans)...so the Church was established in Rome BEFORE Peter arrived).

The whole concept of dual final authorities...one based on Peter's designates (or spritual Executors, if you will), the other on the written testimony of various Apostles (of which Peter's words make up but a fraction), just seems very much to me as medieval Roman historic revisionism, intended to defend and endorse the Bishop of Rome's worldly power, functionally over and against...the Bible.

Duumviri never worked in ancient Rome, and haven't worked since.

62 posted on 04/19/2010 10:53:12 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: BenKenobi

Enjoy your organization.

I’ll enjoy my Savior, and brother, Jesus, along with my Dad, and the Holy Spirit, my comforter.


63 posted on 04/19/2010 10:57:06 AM PDT by srweaver (Never Forget the Judicial Homicide of Terri Schiavo)
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To: Salvation
Stephen K. Ray was raised in a devout, loving Baptist family.
His father was a deacon and Bible teacher and Stephen was very
involved in the Baptist Church as a teacher of Biblical studies!


Do the writings of the "church fathers" trump or impugn the Holy Word of G-d ?
Matthew. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church,

One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18
is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known
as the Holy Word of G-d when Yah'shua spoke these words.

This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d
was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.

The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are
predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d
is that Yah'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock "
e.g.



Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed
[Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,

Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of YHvH. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are
just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.

Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten
thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless
YHvH had given them up?

Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede

Deuteronomy 32:32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like YHvH;
there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "YHvH is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;

2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the
horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47 "YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!

2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?

Psalm 18:46 YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!

Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.

Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'

Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."

Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to YHvH; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

Habakkuk 1:12 Oh YHvH, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy
One, we will not die. Oh YHvH, you have appointed them to
execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.

Peter himself refers to Yah'shua as the "rock" in
1 Peter 2:1-10
NAsbU 1 Peter 2:
1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

3 if you have tasted the kindness of YHvH.

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,

5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word,
and to this doom they were also appointed.

9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION,
so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY,
but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

It is patently clear from the Holy Word of G-d
that the NAME "Rock" is a NAME that describes YHvH,
the creator of the universe.

To assign YHvH's NAME to a mere mortal,
a created being, seeks to impugn and
deny the Holy Word of G-d.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

64 posted on 04/19/2010 11:15:05 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: BenKenobi

Yes, there is one Church, which consists of ALL those who’ve been adopted into the family of God.

You and I will never agree, it seems. It’s a paradigm thing. I consider the Church to consist of those whom the Lord has saved and adopted. You consider the Church to be the Roman Catholic institution.


65 posted on 04/19/2010 11:33:11 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: BenKenobi

You wrote, “Scripture says nothing about a ‘personal relationship’.”

Jesus now calls us “friend.” That sounds fairly “personal” to me.


66 posted on 04/19/2010 11:37:02 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Diamond
That's an interesting discrepancy in the numbers from that source. My information was third-hand (as in reported by another party on another website). Who's to say what the real numbers are? That's one of my difficulties with the Protestant view of the world... when Catholics disagree on a matter of faith, we take it to a higher authority (the Catechism, the Bible, the Magisterium) until we resolve the conflict. Protestants simply form a new denomination.

I take issue with their characterization of 242 Roman Catholic denominations. They could be talking about Dominicans, Franciscans, Coptics, Maronites, et al. Some of that is a separation of holy orders and others are a separation of tradition and purpose (such as the Maronites who preserve Christ's Words of Consecration in original Aramaic). There are really only 22 "churches" who have a separate tradition or liturgy who are in communion with Rome. According to dictionary.com, a denomination is "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy." That could possibly apply to those churches when viewed from different perspectives. However, they are all in communion with the Holy See in Rome and we are One Church.

That's not true of the Protestant side of the house...

67 posted on 04/19/2010 12:39:42 PM PDT by pgyanke (You have no "rights" that require an involuntary burden on another person. Period. - MrB)
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To: Theo

Divisions are the work of men, not of God. This is something that we need to understand. Yes, everyone who believes in God will be saved, but that we are divided bodily betrays the truth of his Word.

I personally don’t think there is cause for such disagreement. I think all Christians should be Catholics if for nothing more then to preach the truth.


68 posted on 04/19/2010 12:49:26 PM PDT by BenKenobi ("we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be")
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To: BenKenobi
Daniel 2:34 "You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth...

44 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 45 "Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."

It's ironic to me that our Protestant friends who hold the Bible as the sole authority on Earth don't see that the Kingdom of God is the Church and the Church is growing to fill the whole world as foretold in Daniel and Revelation. Many of the denominations share a creed in common with us wherein we recall the communion of saints. Well, if we can agree that saints are those in Heaven and Heaven is the Kingdom of God... why can't we agree that we are part of that same Kingdom here on Earth if we are in communion with them?!

69 posted on 04/19/2010 12:51:43 PM PDT by pgyanke (You have no "rights" that require an involuntary burden on another person. Period. - MrB)
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To: BenKenobi

Ah, I hate that kind of self-promotion. You continue promoting your Roman Catholic faith rather than simply promoting Christ and faith in Him. No more pearls for you.


70 posted on 04/19/2010 1:14:34 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: BenKenobi

You asked: What if he says, “I never knew you?”

1. I would be spending eternity with you (humorous answer).

2. I would be lost forever (truth).

3. I could hope someone buys one of Leo’s indulgences from John Tetzel for me, then I could go to heaven without my own righteousness, or Jesus’ (Catholic solution to economic problems which, somehow, I cannot subscribe to).

Do you have any other alternatives?


71 posted on 04/19/2010 1:43:18 PM PDT by srweaver (Never Forget the Judicial Homicide of Terri Schiavo)
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To: srweaver

Submit to Christ in everything.


72 posted on 04/19/2010 1:55:34 PM PDT by BenKenobi ("we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be")
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To: BenKenobi

It will be kind of “too late” then, don’t you think?

I seriously doubt if our understanding of submission to Christ would have a lot in common, as our understanding of what the Bible teaches and what constitutes the church are severely divergent on the issues we have discussed.

For instance, submission to Christ, from my perspective has NOTHING to do with the Catholic catechism or magisterium.

What if Jesus says “depart from me, I never knew you regarding the “magisterium?”

“The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” — per Wikipedia


73 posted on 04/19/2010 2:08:26 PM PDT by srweaver (Never Forget the Judicial Homicide of Terri Schiavo)
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To: srweaver

“I seriously doubt if our understanding of submission to Christ would have a lot in common”

I’ve seen both sides, and I’d argue there is no difference between them wrt to submission to Christ

You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with yourself.

“from my perspective has NOTHING to do with the Catholic catechism or magisterium.”

The key word is from your perspective. You have built up an understanding of the Church apart from the reality. Both the Catechism and the magisterium of the Catholic church teach that submission to Christ is essential for salvation.

“What if Jesus says “depart from me, I never knew you regarding the “magisterium?’ “

I don’t believe he will because he appointed the disciples and gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the authority to teach and preach the Word. The Priests and bishops of the Catholic church today have been appointed in an unbroken line from the age of the Apostles.


74 posted on 04/19/2010 2:15:02 PM PDT by BenKenobi ("we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be")
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To: BenKenobi

As I said before, enjoy your organization. I will enjoy my faith in God and my brothers and sisters in Christ, both within and without the RC organization.

Blessings in Christ!


75 posted on 04/19/2010 2:34:43 PM PDT by srweaver (Never Forget the Judicial Homicide of Terri Schiavo)
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To: netmilsmom

As in Baba Yaga I believe. Never learned Polish though.


76 posted on 04/19/2010 4:58:45 PM PDT by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: netmilsmom
Which Catholics and which LDS?

We gotta' be specific here.

77 posted on 04/19/2010 5:07:13 PM PDT by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: srweaver

What “organization” denomination do you belong to?

Catholics believe in Christ. The Mass, both the Liturgy of the Word and definitely the Liturgy of the Eucharist centers on Christ.

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? If not, then with what authority do you speak?


78 posted on 04/19/2010 5:13:35 PM PDT by Salvation ( "With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Diamond; pgyanke
25,000?

Seriously that might well be an understatement.

The source of conflict between the RCs and the Huguenots turned out to be where they said their prayers ~ and little more than that.

The Huguenots claimed a chapel in the home was OK. The RCs demanded adherence to a custom that required regular church attendance. (Louis XIV made it a death penalty to fail to conform).

Things sure got out of hand after that issue was not resolved.

I find the situation rather bizarre since every RC I know personally has a spot set aside in the home where you can pray and read the Bible.

I do believe the Huguenots won the theological arguments if not the ecclesiastical debate!

79 posted on 04/19/2010 5:15:56 PM PDT by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: muawiyah

>>Which Catholics and which LDS?

We gotta’ be specific here.<<

Go to any Catholic thread with “Mary”, “Pope” or “Rosary” in the title. You’ll see it.
As for the LDS FReepers, I’ve only been on a few of their thread and have seen them beat on.

With both groups, it starts with “busybody” Christians with self-righteous attitudes telling one group or another how wrong they are.
I have no problem with defending oneself, I do have a problem with “usual suspects” jumping onto every thread to slam beliefs.

It’s infantile. The “I know better than you” attitude runs high. It reminds me of conspiracy theorists. They know something you don’t.


80 posted on 04/19/2010 5:16:37 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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