Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

"When Are the Writings or Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?" Mormon
DIALOGUE: A Journal of Mormon Thought ^ | J. Reuben Clark

Posted on 05/13/2010 8:49:44 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

 
"When Are the Writings or Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?"

by J. Reuben Clark

Address given to seminary and institute teachers, at BYU, on July 7, 1954, published in Church News (July 31, 1954): 9-10; reprinted in Dialogue 12 (Summer 1979), 68- 80.

I assume the scripture behind this question is the declaration of the Lord in a revelation given through Joseph primarily to Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. M'Lellin, who were to engage in missionary work. After addressing a word first to Orson Hyde, the Lord continued:

And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth--

And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation." (D.C. 68:2-4.)

The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not "moved upon by the Holy Ghost," yet only when they do so speak, as so "moved upon," is what they say Scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application.

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were "moved upon by the Holy Ghost?"

I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" only when we, ourselves, are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost."

In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak.

We might here profitably repeat what Brother Brigham preached. He said:

Were your faith concentrated upon the proper object, your confidence unshaken, your lives pure and holy, every one fulfilling the duties of his or her calling according to the Priesthood and capacity bestowed upon you, you would be filled with the Holy Ghost, and it would be as impossible for any man to deceive and lead you to destruction as for a feather to remain unconsumed in the midst of intense heat. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7 p. 277.)

On another occasion he said:

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self- security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150.)

So, we might leave this whole discussion here except that there are some collateral matters involved in the problem that it may not be entirely amiss to consider.

From the earliest days of the Church the Lord has given commandments and bestowed blessings that involved the operation of the principle behind our main question--the determination of whether our brethren, when they speak, are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost."

Speaking to the Prophet, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer (at Fayette) as early as June, 1829, the Lord said to Oliver Cowdery regarding the written word:

Behold, I have manifested unto you, by my Spirit in many instances, that the things which you have written are true; wherefore you know that they are true.

And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written;

For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock. (D.C. 18:2-4.)

Thus early did the Lord seem to make clear to Oliver Cowdery that he must be guided by the written work; he was not to rely upon his own ideas and concepts.

Two years later (June 7, 1831), the Lord stressed again the importance of following the written word. Speaking to the Prophet, Sidney Rigdon, Lyman Wight, John Corrill, John Murdock, Hyrum Smith, and several others, the Lord said:

And let them journey from thence preaching the word by the way, saying none other things than that which the prophets and apostles have written, and that which is taught them by the Comforter through the prayer of faith. (D.C. 52:9; and see D.C. 18:32-33.)

Time and again the Lord told these early Brethren of their duty to spread the Gospel, and in spreading the Gospel, they were to speak with the voice of a trump. (See D.C. 19:27; 24:12,27:16; 28:8,16; 29:4; 30:5,9; 32:1; 33:2; 34:5; 35:17,23; 36: 1,5-6; 37:2; 39:11; 42:6,11-12; 49:1-4; 52:9-10; 58:46-47,63-64; 66:5- 13; 68:4-5; 71:1-11; 88:77 passim; 93:51; 101:39; 106:2; 107:25- 35.)

In a commandment given to Leman Copley (March, 1831) as he went into missionary work among the Shakers, the Lord gave this significant commandment, which has in it a message for all amongst us who teach sectarianism:

And my servant Leman shall be ordained unto this work, that he may reason with them, not according to that which he has received of them, but according to that which shall be taught him by you my servants; and by so doing I will bless him, otherwise he shall not prosper. (D.C. 49:4)

To a group of elders (in May, 1831), who had been confused by the manifestations of different spirits, the Lord, answering a special request made of him by the Prophet, gave these instructions and commandments:

Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question--unto what were ye ordained?

To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.

And then received ye spirits which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God; and in this are ye justified?

Behold, ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.

Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, cloth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, cloth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

If it be some other way it is not of God.

Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth.

Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day." (D.C. 50:13-24.)

This whole revelation (D.C. Sec. 50) should be read with great care. There is much instruction given in it. But I wish particularly to call your attention to verses 21 and 22, just quoted:

Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

Both are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost."

I recur to the declaration of the Lord made (November, 1831) through the Prophet Joseph to Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. M'Lellin, as concerned their duties to preach the Gospel as missionaries. I will re-read the passages pertinent to our discussion:

And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth--

And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants. (D.C. 68: 2-5.)

Perhaps we should note that these promises relate, in their terms, to missionary work.

As to missionary work, we will wish to remember that in April of 1829, the Lord, speaking to Joseph and Oliver, said:

Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed. (D.C. 6:9.)

The same instruction was given to Joseph and Hyrum a little later (May, 1829) in the same words. (D.C. 11:9.)

The instruction was repeated a third time (about a year later, March, 1830), now to Martin Harris (through a revelation given to him through the Prophet Joseph). In this revelation, the Lord added, after instructing Martin as to his missionary work which was to be prosecuted diligently and "with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers":

And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost. (D.C. 19:30-31.)

This is repeating some essentials of what the Lord had commanded twice before. Then the Lord said:

Behold, this is a great and the last commandment which I shall give unto you concerning this matter; for this shall suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life. (D.C. 19:32.)

The Lord seems just a little impatient here. It may be the Brethren had been talking about tenets, about which that time they were scantily informed. The Church had not yet been organized.

Assuming that the revelation regarding the scriptural character and status of the words of the Brethren when "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" referred, at the time, to missionary work, and reminding ourselves of our question--how shall we know when the Brethren so speak?--we should recall the quotation we have just made from an earlier revelation, when the Lord said:

"Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together,--that is, both are led and inspired by the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. (D.C. 50:22.) Both are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost."

Again considering missionary work, this mutual understanding between preacher and investigator is surely that which brings conversion, one of the prime purposes of missionary work. It would not be easy to preach false doctrines, undetected, on the first principles of the Gospel. So we need say no more about that.

However, over the years, a broader interpretation has been given to this passage:

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto Salvation. (D.C. 68:4.)

In considering the problem involved here, it should be in mind that some of the General Authorities have had assigned to them a special calling; they possess a special gift; they are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, which gives them a special spiritual endowment in connection with their teaching of the people. They have the right, the power, and authority to declare the mind and will of God to his people, subject to the over-all power and authority of the President of the Church. Others of the General Authorities are not given this special spiritual endowment and authority covering their teaching; they have a resulting limitation, and the resulting limitation upon their power and authority in teaching applies to every other officer and member of the Church, for none of them is spiritually endowed as a prophet, seer, and revelator. Furthermore, as just indicated, the President of the Church has a further and special spiritual endowment in this respect, for he is the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator for the whole Church.

Here we must have in mind--must know--that only the President of the Church, the Presiding High Priest, is sustained as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator for the Church, and he alone has the right to receive revelations for the Church, either new or amendatory, or to give authoritative interpretations of scriptures that shall be binding on the Church, or change in any way the existing doctrines of the Church. He is God's sole mouthpiece on earth for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the only true Church. He alone may declare the mind and will of God to his people. No officer of any other Church in the world had this high right and lofty prerogative.

So when any other person, irrespective of who he is, undertakes to do any of these things, you may know that he is not "moved upon by the Holy Ghost," in so speaking, unless he has special authorization from the President of the Church. (D.C. 90:1-4, 9, 12-16; 107:8, 65-66, 91-92; 115:19; 124:125; DHC 2:477; 6:363).

Thus far it is clear.

But there are many places where the scriptures are not too clear, and where different interpretations may be given to them; there are many doctrines; tenets as the Lord called them, that have not been officially defined and declared. It is in the consideration and discussion of these scriptures and doctrines that opportunities arise for differences of views as to meanings and extent. In view of the fundamental principle just announced as to the position of the President of the Church, other bearers of the Priesthood, those with the special spiritual endowment and those without it, should be cautious in their expressions about and interpretations of scriptures and doctrines. They must act and teach subject to the over-all power and authority of the President of the Church. It would be most unfortunate were this not always strictly observed by the bearers of this special spiritual endowment, other than the President. Sometimes in the past, they have spoken "out of sum," so to speak. Furthermore, at times even those not members of the General Authorities are said to have been heard to declare their own views on various matters concerning which no official view or declaration has been made by the mouthpiece of the Lord, sometimes with an assured certainty that might deceive the uninformed and unwary. The experience of Pelatiah Brown in the days of the Prophet is an illustration of this general principle. (DHC, Vol. V, pp. 339-345 )

There have been rare occasions when even the President of the Church in his preaching and teaching has not been "moved upon by the Holy Ghost." You will recall the Prophet Joseph declared that a prophet is not always a prophet.

To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, l do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of Johnson's [sic] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk.

I do not know if this ever happened, but I say it illustrates a principle--that even the President of the Church, himself, may not always be "moved upon by the Holy Ghost," when he addresses the people. This has happened about matters of doctrine (usually of a highly speculative character) where subsequent Presidents of the Church and the peoples themselves have felt that in declaring the doctrine, the announcer was not "moved upon by the Holy Ghost."

How shall the Church know when these adventurous expeditions of the brethren into these highly speculative principles and doctrines meet the requirements of the statutes that the announcers thereof have been "moved upon by the Holy Ghost"? The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost"; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest. I refer again to the observations of Brother Brigham on this general question.

But this matter of disagreements over doctrine, and the announcement by high authority of incorrect doctrines, is not new.

It will be recalled that disagreements among brethren in high places about doctrines made clear appeared in the early days of the Apostolic Church. Indeed, at the Last Supper, "there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest"; this was in the presence of the Savior himself. (Luke 22: 24.)

The disciples had earlier had the same dispute when they were at Capernaum. (Mark 9:33; Luke 9:46.) And not long after that, James and John, of their own volition or at the instance of their mother, apparently the latter, asked Jesus that one of them might sit on his right hand and the other on his left. (Matt. 20:20 ff.; Mark 10:35 ff.)

This matter of precedence seems to have troubled the disciples.

There were disputes over doctrine. You will recall that Paul and Barnabas had differences (not over doctrine, however), and, says the record, "the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other." (Acts 15:36 95.)

Paul had an apparently unseemly dispute with Peter about circumcision. Paul boasted to the Galatians, "I said unto Peter before them all ...." (Gal. 2:14.)

Peter, replying more or less in kind, wrote: " . . . even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (II Peter 3:15-16.)

This same question regarding circumcision became so disturbing to the Church that "the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter," in Jerusalem. Paul, Barnabas, and Peter were there and participated in the discussion. The Pharisee disciples stood for circumcision of Gentiles. James delivered the decision against the necessity of circumcising the Gentile converts. (Acts 15:1 95.)

So it was with the Apostolic Church. After the passing of the Apostles, bickerings, contentions, strife, rebellion grew apace and ripened in a few generations into the Great Apostacy. I should like to quote here three paragraphs from a work by Dr. Islay Burns (at one time a Professor of Church History, Free Church College, Glasgow). He writes:

It is the year 101 of the Christian era. The last of the apostles is just dead. The rich evening radiance which in his solitary ministry had for 30 years lingered on the earth when all his companions were gone, has at last passed away, and the dark night settles down again. The age of inspiration is over-- that peerless century which began with the birth of Christ, and closed with the death of John--and the course of the ages descends once more to the ordinary level of common time.

It was with the Church now as with the disciples at Bethany, when the last gleam of the Savior's ascending train had passed from their sight, and they turned their faces, reluctant and sad, to the dark world again. The termination of the age of inspiration was in truth the very complement and consummation of the ascension of the Lord. The sun can then only be said to have fairly set when his departing glory has died away from the horizon, and the chill stars shine out sharp and clear on the dun and naked sky.

That time has now fully come, The last gleam of inspired wisdom and truth vanished from the earth with the beloved apostle's gentle farewell, and we pass at once across the mysterious line which separates the sacred from the secular annals of the world--the history of the apostolic age from the history of the Christian Church. (Islay Burns, The First Three Christian Centuries, London, T. Nelson and Sons, 1884, p. 49.)

So spoke Burns.

This tragic sunset rapidly deepened into twilight of not too long life, and then came the spiritual darkness of an Apostate night. For the better part of two millenniums men groped about, spiritually stumbling one over the other, vainly seeking even a spark of spiritual light, until, on that beautiful spring morning, a century and a third ago, a pillar of light above the brightness of the noonday sun, gradually fell from the heavens till it enveloped a young boy in the woods praying mightily for spiritual light. As he looked up he saw two persons standing in the light above him, the Father and the Son. The morning of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Time had come, breaking the darkness of the long generations of spiritual night. As in the creation, light was to replace darkness, day was to follow night.

The Church was organized, named by direct command of the Lord, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

-SNIP-

Before noting a few ways in which the inspiration of the Lord and the revelations of his mind and will have come to men, I want to refer to one aspect of the First Vision, that part (on which is hung a charge of epilepsy to discredit and destroy Joseph's inspiration and mission) which relates that as he came out of the vision he found himself lying on his back, looking up into heaven, without strength, though he soon recovered. You might find it interesting to compare this with the account of the condition of Moses after his great theophany (Moses 1:9-10), and of Daniel (Dan. 8:27), and of Saul (Acts 9 and 22), also of the incidents connected with the transfiguration on the mount (Matt. 17 ff.; Mark 9:1 ff.; Luke 9:28 ff.).

I wish to make here one observation about the First Vision.

No man or woman is a true member of the Church who does not fully accept the First Vision, just as no man is a Christian who does not accept, first, the Fall of Adam, and second, the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Any titular Church member who does not accept the First Vision but continues to pose as a Church member lacks not only moral courage but intellectual integrity and honor if he does not avow himself an apostate and discontinue going about the Church, and among the youth particularly, as a Churchman, teaching not only lack-faith but faith-destroying doctrines. He is a true wolf in sheep's clothing.

More at link: https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V12N02_70.pdf



TOPICS: Apologetics; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: beck; christian; glennbeck; inman; lds; mormon; restoration
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-52 next last
Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.
 
FROM THE RELIGION FORUM MODERATOR:

Open threads are a town square. Antagonism though not encouraged, should be expected

Posters may argue for or against beliefs of any kind. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule.

On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”

When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”

Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.

Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/

 Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.

 

1 posted on 05/13/2010 8:49:45 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Ping


2 posted on 05/13/2010 8:50:46 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I have discovered Campbell's Senior alphabet soup....it comes in large type.!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39
The Church was organized, named by direct command of the Lord, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

....after trying out several names....

"Church of Christ was the original name of the church founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. Organized informally in 1829 and then as a legal entity on April 6, 1830, in northwestern New York, it was the first organization implementing the principles found in Smith's newly-published Book of Mormon, and represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement.

Later names for this organization included the Church of the Latter Day Saints (by 1834 resolution), the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of God, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (by 1838 revelation)".

Link

3 posted on 05/13/2010 8:59:01 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I have discovered Campbell's Senior alphabet soup....it comes in large type.!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

It’s called “Name And Claim It” or “Blab It And Grab It.”


4 posted on 05/13/2010 9:02:56 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

An interesting larger question is posed here. When do mere writings become scripture? If we think back to the New Testament, the epistles, written by the church leaders, were adopted as scripture. Some made it, others did not.

Why? What is the criteria? I can’t believe it is human populism (greatest acceptance by the population).


5 posted on 05/13/2010 9:08:49 AM PDT by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost?”

I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.”

In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak.
___________________________________________________

Yes the listeners are responsibile to check what is being said from the pulpit for truth and accuracy...

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11


6 posted on 05/13/2010 9:10:44 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

Arrogance on display from the Gnostics..........

thanks for the post.


7 posted on 05/13/2010 9:21:05 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

ThuRsday
8 posted on 05/13/2010 9:27:35 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I have discovered Campbell's Senior alphabet soup....it comes in large type.!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol

You will have very many nights of interesting reading if you pick up a book on the Nicene Council or any good book on the history of Christianity. The battle of the bible, as I call it, was one helluva cold war. Also, read some of the Apocryphal gospels (they are available on the net), and compare them to the canonical gospels. You will see a striking difference and give you confidence the Council knew what it was doing.


9 posted on 05/13/2010 9:38:21 AM PDT by HerrBlucher (END THE WAR ON LIBERTY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Tennessee Nana

You wrote: “We can tell when the speakers are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’ only when we, ourselves, are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.’”

The Holy Ghost is so wonderful, so miraculous, so glorious, so . . . words fail. I love the Holy Ghost. He leads and guides me to come closer to Heavenly Father and the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Oh, I forgot, you believe that it is impossible for Mormons to be comforted and guided by the Holy Ghost.

I still love the Holy Ghost; no matter what you say.

I am a Mormon.


11 posted on 05/13/2010 11:21:43 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

You left out the possibility that not only are there folks who are concerned for your immortal soul and eternal destiny, but that some folks find Momronism so clearly a christian-loo-alike deceit from Hell that they point it out by posting the source materials from Mormonism as evidence of same. But then, that is not surprising that you would leave those possibilities out ...


12 posted on 05/13/2010 11:31:45 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

SD to nana: You wrote: “We can tell when the speakers are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’ only when we, ourselves, are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.’”
______________________________________________________

Where did I write that ???

Which post ???

Thats news to me...


13 posted on 05/13/2010 12:08:40 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

Wow! You had to go way back to find this article.
___________________________________________

I hope you dont read that old book of mormon...

ya gotta go way back to find that...

1830

Old Testament

4,000 BC

AH no thats not believed by the mormons

New Testament

50 AD

Ah no thats not believed by the mormons

The Joey Smith Bible

1840

Ah yes no I do hope you read Joey Smith’s version..

Doctrines & Covenants 132

I do hope you are still practicing the new and everlasting covenant

Meanwhile theres fresh air up on the roof...


14 posted on 05/13/2010 12:15:27 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

I still love the Holy Ghost; I am a Mormon.
_________________________________________

Yes we know you are a mormon and we know what you believe..

But whats the “holy ghost” ???


15 posted on 05/13/2010 12:17:14 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

you believe that it is impossible for Mormons to be comforted and guided by the Holy Ghost.
________________________________________________

Whats that ???

How does that work ???


16 posted on 05/13/2010 12:18:19 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

I am a Mormon.
____________________________________

I am a Christian


17 posted on 05/13/2010 12:19:06 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

I am a Mormon.
____________________________________

Yes well if you want to boast about belonging to an anti-Chrsitian cult...

Thats your right...

Just dont get upset when the Chrsitians in these threads tell you youre worshipping the wrong jesus...

and that the son of perdition Joey Smith waa child raping, thisving, anti-Christian phony...

and the mormonism is a false religion...

other than that ...

go for your life...


18 posted on 05/13/2010 12:22:41 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

The blasphemer Joey Smith is still rotting in his grave and bound for Hell, no matter what you say.


19 posted on 05/13/2010 12:24:38 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

so . . . words fail.
____________________________

Thats OK Sandy...

The so called “savior” of the mormons, the son of perdition, Joey Smith failed also...

So youre in bad company...

The pagan boaster, Joey Smith, failed to usurp the place and throne and authority of The LORD Jesus Christ of the Chrsitian Bible...

Oh dear the lying Hedonist Joey Smith found out that he wasnt greater than Jesus after all...

Words failed joey Smith too after he murdered 2 men and got himself shot and killed by men protecting themselves from his murderous rage...

Then Joey Smith came face to face with the REAL judge. Jesus, and Jesus condemned Joey Smith to Hell...


20 posted on 05/13/2010 12:32:06 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

you believe that it is impossible for Mormons to be comforted and guided by the Holy Ghost.
_________________________________________

Mind read much ???


21 posted on 05/13/2010 12:33:35 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Christians worship Jesus ...

Mormons worship Joey Smith...


22 posted on 05/13/2010 12:36:53 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on the earth ... “ (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, page 461)


23 posted on 05/13/2010 12:38:31 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
He's there already Nana....

Pretty sure anyway........

24 posted on 05/13/2010 12:40:20 PM PDT by Osage Orange (Si vis pacem, para bellum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

Don’t forget that some people are just jerks.


25 posted on 05/13/2010 12:42:41 PM PDT by LanPB01
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Osage Orange

Well i think so too...

but some in these threads say one thing some another...

So whether or not Joey Smith is in hell right now, he’s going to be there at some stage...

and forever...no reprieve...

Its too late for Jey Smith to be saved...

God gave him 38 years to repent and be savedf and change his life...

but the apostate joey smith chose to remain a blasphemer and an enemy of God and the Christians..


26 posted on 05/13/2010 12:45:00 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39
And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation." (D.C. 68:2-4.)
27 posted on 05/13/2010 1:06:55 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11
28 posted on 05/13/2010 1:08:05 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
“Scriptures” for Mormons are as follows:

And NONE of them contain the basis for the Bogus, Masonic derived Tempole Rites® that SO many MORMONs slavishly perform over and over and over and over and over again...

29 posted on 05/13/2010 1:10:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
 
The so called “savior” of the mormons, the son of perdition, Joey Smith failed also...
 


 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
 
 
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
 
 

30 posted on 05/13/2010 1:12:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

The errors in the Book of Mormon were blamed on the fact that it was originally written in “reformed Egyptian.” On page 538 of the first edition we read as follows:

“Condemn me not because of mine imperfection; neither my father, because of his imperfection; neither them which have written before him, but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than that which we have been.

“And now behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge in the characters, which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech. And if our plates had been sufficiently large, we should have written in the Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in the Hebrew, behold, ye would have had none imperfection in our record. But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.” [Mormon 9:31-34]

On page 564 of the first edition of the Book of Mormon we read as follows:

“And I said unto him, Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing: for Lord, thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, whereunto thou hast not made us mighty in writing: for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; and thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands ... when we write, we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying, Fools mock, but they shall mourn ... “ [Ether 12:23-26]

For many years the Mormons taught that the Lord had given Joseph Smith a perfect translation of the Book of Mormon, and that all of the errors were errors which were made by the Nephites on the original plates. David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, made this statement:

“I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English.” (An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, 1887, page 12)


31 posted on 05/13/2010 1:13:08 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
Then Joey Smith came face to face with the REAL judge. Jesus, and Jesus condemned Joey Smith to Hell...

Well; not YET anyway.

We STILL get to look forward to the Great White Throne judgement.

32 posted on 05/13/2010 1:13:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on the earth ... “ (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, page 461)


 
 


 
 
My 11/2000 printing of the BoM, the one with © 1981 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. on the frontisplate, states, at the bottom of the BRIEF EXPLANATION page:


About this edition:  Some minor errors in the text have been perpetuated in
past editions of the Book of Mormon.  This edition contains corrections that
seem appropriate  to  bring  the  material into conformity with prepublication
manuscripts and early editions edited by the Prophet Joseph Smith.


 
About this edition:  Some minor errors in the text have been perpetuated in
past editions of the Book of Mormon.  This edition contains corrections that
seem appropriate  to  bring  the  material into conformity with prepublication
manuscripts and early editions edited by the Prophet Joseph Smith.
 
 
 
 
SEEM appropriate?  Didn't the Quorum of Twelve convene to put THEIR imprimitur on the CHANGES?
 
How did GOD allow these ERRORS to even get STARTED?
If HIS purpose was to CORRECT error in the FIRST place...

33 posted on 05/13/2010 1:15:36 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: LanPB01
Don’t forget that some people are just jerks.

Which ones?

34 posted on 05/13/2010 1:16:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

(In 1981 the LDS Church published a new edition of the Book of Mormon, making a number of additional changes in the text. They also reset the type thus changing the page numbers from the previous editions.)

It is very interesting to note that the Mormon Historian Joseph Fielding Smith has claimed that there is no truth in the statement that there have been thousands of changes in the Book of Mormon. He was reported as saying the following at the fall conference of 1961:

“During the past week or two I have received a number of letters from different parts of the United States written by people, some of whom at least are a little concerned because they have been approached by enemies of the Church and enemies of the Book of Mormon, who have made the statement that there have been one or two or more thousand changes in the Book of Mormon since the first edition was published. Well, of course, there is no truth in that statement.

“It is true that when the Book of Mormon was printed the printer was a man who was unfriendly. The publication of the book was done under adverse circumstances, and there were a few errors, mostly typographical - conditions that arise in most any book that is being published - but there was not one thing in the Book of Mormon or in the second edition or any other edition since that in any way contradicts the first edition, and such changes as were made were made by the Prophet Joseph Smith because under those adverse conditions the Book of Mormon was published. But there was no change of doctrine.

“Now, these Sons of Belial who circulate these reports evidently know better. I will not use the word that is in my mind.” (The Improvement Era, December, 1961, pp. 924-925)

This study will show that there have been thousands of changes in the Book of Mormon and that Joseph Fielding Smith is the one who is not telling the truth. As to his statement that the man who printed the first edition was unfriendly and allowed errors to creep into the book, the famous Mormon Historian B. H. Roberts has already stated that the first edition of the Book of Mormon was “singularly free from typographical errors” and that the printer could not be blamed for the many mistakes that are found in the Book of Mormon:

“That errors of grammar and faults in dictation do exist in the Book of Mormon (and more especially and abundantly in the first edition) must be conceded; and what is more, while some of the errors may be referred to inefficient proof-reading, such as is to be expected in a country printing establishment, yet such is the nature of the errors in question, and so interwoven are they throughout the diction of the Book, that they may not be disposed of by saying they result from inefficient proof-reading or referring them to the mischievous disposition of the ‘typos’ or the unfriendliness of the publishing house. The errors are constitutional in their character; they are of the web and woof of the style, and not such errors as may be classed as typographical. Indeed, the first edition of the Book of Mormon is SINGULARLY FREE FROM TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS.” (Defense of the Faith, by B. H. Roberts, pp. 280-281; reprinted in A New Witness For Christ in America, by Francis W. Kirkham, Vol. 1, pp. 200-201)

In a footnote on page 295 of the same book Mr. Roberts stated:

“But after due allowance is made for all these conditions, the errors are so numerous, and of such a constitutional nature, that they cannot be explained away by these unfavorable conditions under which the work was published.”

John H. Gilbert, the man who helped to print the Book of Mormon, claimed that the Mormons did not want him to correct the grammatical errors which were in the manuscript:

“When the printer was ready to commence work, Harris was notified, and Hyrum Smith brought the first installment of manuscript ... On the second day - Harris and Smith being in the office - I called their attention to a grammatical error, and asked whether I should correct it? Harris consulted with Smith a short time, and turned to me and said: ‘The Old Testament is ungrammatical, set it as it is written.’ ... .

“Cowdery held and looked over the manuscript when most of the proofs were read. Martin Harris once or twice, and Hyrum Smith once, Grandin supposing these men could read their own writing as well, if not better, than any one else; and if there are any discrepancies between the Palmyra edition and the manuscript these men should be held responsible.” (Memorandum, made by John H. Gilbert, Esq., September 8, 1892, Palmyra, N.Y., printed in Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, Introduction)

A photograph of the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon which is published in the book, A New Witness For Christ In America, Vol. 1, page 216, proves that the printer was not responsible for the grammatical errors which appeared in the first edition A second handwritten manuscript known as the printer’s manuscript also confirms this. (See photo at the end of the introduction.) Photos of the printer’s manuscript can be seen at the University of Utah Library Special Collections. George Reynolds quotes the following from an interview with John H. Gilbert:

“’Hyrum Smith always brought the manuscript to the office; he would have it under his coat and all buttoned up as carefully as though it was so much gold. He said at the time that it was translated from plates by the power of God, and they were very particular about it. We had a great deal of trouble with it. It was not punctuated at all. They did not know anything about punctuation, and we had to do that ourselves.’

“’Well; did you change any part of it when you were setting the type?’

“’No, Sir; we never changed it at all.’

“’Why did you not change it and correct it?’

“’Because they would not allow us to; they were very particular about that. We never changed it in the least. Oh, well; there might have been one or two words that I changed the spelling of; I believe I did change the spelling of one, and perhaps two, but no more.’

“’Did you set all the type, or did some one help you?’

“’I did the whole of it myself, and helped to read the proof, too; there was no one who worked at that but myself. Did you ever see one of the first copies? I have one here that was never bound. Mr.Grandin, the printer, gave it to me. If you ever saw a Book of Mormon you will see that they changed it afterwards.’

“’They did! Well, let us see your copy; that is a good point. How is it changed now?’

“’I will show you (bringing out his copy). Here on the title page it says (reading) “Joseph Smith, Jr. author and proprietor.” Afterwards, in getting out other editions they left that out, and only claimed that Joseph Smith translated it.’

“’Well, did they claim anything else than that he was the translator when they brought the manuscript to you?’

“’Oh, no; they claimed that he was translating by means of some instruments he got at the same time he did the plates, and that the Lord helped him.’” (The Myth of the Manuscript Found, 1883 edition, page 59)

According to Joseph Smith’s testimony there should not have been any reason to make changes in the Book of Mormon. He stated that when he and the witnesses went out to pray concerning it, a voice spoke from heaven telling them that the translation of the Book of Mormon was correct:

“... we heard a voice from out of the bright light above us, saying, ‘These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.’” (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Vol. 1, pp. 54-55)

On another occasion Joseph Smith stated:

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on the earth ... “ (History of the Church, Vol. 4, page 461)

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm


35 posted on 05/13/2010 1:21:06 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Don’t forget that some people are just jerks.

Which ones?
_________________________________________

The excommunicated ones...

Joey Smith’s family were excommunicated from the Presbyterian church in Palmyra, NY on March 29, 1830.


36 posted on 05/13/2010 1:24:51 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Use your imagination.


37 posted on 05/13/2010 1:26:12 PM PDT by LanPB01
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Hmmmmmmmm

Well I’ve always imagined it was jerky to steal other mens wives...

So Joey Smith was a jerk when he did that...

And I KNOW God objects to that

You shall not commit adultery Exodus 20:14


38 posted on 05/13/2010 1:32:39 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V12N02_70.pdf


39 posted on 05/13/2010 6:30:02 PM PDT by BlueMoose
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: LanPB01

It seems some are driven by an unknown force when they endlessly attack!


40 posted on 05/13/2010 9:42:15 PM PDT by restornu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: BlueMoose

thanks for the Link!


41 posted on 05/13/2010 9:47:27 PM PDT by restornu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

Just WHICH one of the various apologists is one to BELIEVE?

Do they hope you get so confused you just GIVE up?


42 posted on 05/14/2010 6:12:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: LanPB01
Use your imagination.

Then I'd be channeling Joseph Smith.

Please; if you have accusations, make them clear just exactly WHO you are complaining about. Otherwise they will be dismissed.

43 posted on 05/14/2010 6:14:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: restornu
It seems some are driven by an unknown force when they endlessly attack!

Go make a stome rubbing...


It's YOUR 'fine, true, loving, only one on earth with the keys' CHURCH that has this STATUE for the WORLD TO SEE right in the 'temple' square.

44 posted on 05/14/2010 6:17:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Then dismiss them.


45 posted on 05/14/2010 6:52:52 AM PDT by LanPB01
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

I dismissed them from the get go.


46 posted on 05/14/2010 7:09:22 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

“Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Christians worship Jesus ...

Mormons worship Joey Smith...”

You are either a lier or totally ignorant about that which you attack on a daily basis.

No Mormon worships Joseph Smith. I think you know this so I am going to guess you are a lier. Shame on you for spreading falsehoods. I base this on you stating previously that you are an ex-Mormon. This is not a personal attack. It is simply an observation and conclusion based upon your own statements.

And why is it exactly you continuously say “Joey Smith”? My guess is because you know that although we don’t worship him, we hold him in high regard and respect him. You know that we always call him Joseph. My conclusion is that you seek to be insulting and antagonistic.

You and others on this anti-Mormon infested board claim to be concerned for the souls of the Mormons yet you hardly show it.

All I see are attacks, insults (although some are thinly veiled), twistings of truth and misrepresentations.

Concerned for others souls? I hardly think so.

On a mission to attack the LDS church using any means? Yep.


47 posted on 05/14/2010 9:28:05 AM PDT by Paragon Defender
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Christians worship Jesus ...

Mormons worship Joey Smith...


48 posted on 05/14/2010 2:04:25 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Paragon Defender
 
No Mormon worships Joseph Smith.
 
 
Maybe FEAR should be a better word?
 


 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
 
 
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
 
 

49 posted on 05/15/2010 4:47:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Paragon Defender
All I see are attacks, insults (although some are thinly veiled), twistings of truth and misrepresentations.

You claim to SEE these things; but NEVER have actually pointed any out!

Folks will start to think you just might be a bit PARANoiD!

50 posted on 05/15/2010 4:48:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-52 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson