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Hoping and Praying for Gog and Magog to Attack
American Vision ^ | June 7, 2010 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54

I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:

There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).
One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.

There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:

[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]
Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:

Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]
Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:

It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.

* * * * *

Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]

In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.

There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.

He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.

Endnotes:

1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.

Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).


Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: eschatology; futurism; spartansixdelta
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To: Quix

We recognize that Scripture frequently uses metaphors. The Lord’s Supper is a metaphor. Some of us believe that for SOME metaphors, God will also reveal in eternity that there was ALSO A VERY LITERAL reality as well.


Do you ever get the feeling that there are many who really don’t WANT to believe the Bible anyway? Many who just want to argue with God? N0 faith-obedience?

I’m a Bible-Literalist AND I beieve that the metaphores in the Bible are literally metaphores. I believe the similes in the Bible are literally similes, because I believe words like “as” and “like” literally. Parables are literally parables, too.

Many times, Bible-literalism is criticized simply because the critic wants a natural explanation for everything supernatural. Or does he really want an explanation at all-—God hides things from the wise-guys.

God created natural elements and supernatural elements as well. All of these are referred to in Scripture, and the two are equated by critics to their own confusion.


201 posted on 06/09/2010 1:39:02 AM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: Quix
Gee, Quix, if we didn't know better we might be led to believe that the believers of the OT were given no opportunity at salvation by God because God hadn't brought forth the Messiah at that time. We might be led to believe that those people were thrown into hell because of a choice made by God.

What a monster that would make God.

But we do know better, and we do know that the believing Jews of that time, who met the faith and obedience requirements of God at that time, were saved and we will see them in Heaven.

Praise God for His compassion and faithfulness!

202 posted on 06/09/2010 1:58:20 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Just mythoughts
There are since King Solomon TWO houses, they are called House of Israel, Ephraim, 10 tribes, etc..... and the House of Judah.

There is certainly MUCH to learn contained within your statement... Rightly divided... rightly divided.

203 posted on 06/09/2010 2:41:03 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: kevao; Quix; streetpreacher
Unfortunately, nobody replied directly to my original post, because I see a chronology problem in Ezekiel which seems to contradict the author’s premise, and I would like to hear from others regarding same.

Anybody?

Of course, you are correct in your assumption. But while correct, your statement is being purposefully ignored, as is the lion's share of the Prophecy.

Replacement theology is a stubborn theory which has been, and will always be debunked by anyone with the slightest bit of study in the prophecies - beginning pretty easily with Genesis 49, in which a prophecy is given about the children of Jacob. It begins with this line:

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

Genesis 48 gives very specific prophecies about Ephraim and Manasseh:

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

These prophecies, known as "the Blessing," among MANY others, defy replacement theology, and preterism as well - For they have *not* knowingly come to pass (I think they have, though folks are to bound by doctrine to see), nor can they be said to be inherited by the "church."

The first example specifies the condition of each of the tribes of Israel in the "last days." The most liberal view of "the last days" is that they began with Christ, or shortly thereafter in the time of the Apostles... surely now we are in the very end of days... on the cusp of it... Where are these things fulfilled?

These things remain unanswered by any, so get used to being ignored.

Likewise, while I am not a purebred Dispensationalist, It is certainly a fallacy, born of confusion, if one cannot see the "times" and "seasons" which are so foundational to the Scriptures. Dispys come awfully close to seeing the "seasons" within their method, and thereby, I am happy to stand with them.

To believe the replacement theorists, one must deny the prophecy, and ignore about half of the Old Covenant.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Those who deny the words of Yahweh do not understand that *none* of His words return to Him empty.

204 posted on 06/09/2010 3:55:00 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

THANKS.

I don’t know of any Dispy who’d disagree with either of those—certainly not the ‘analogy of faith’ that all Scripture is congruent.

The 2nd one about the clear is never trumped by the unclear . . . more than plausible, though I wouldn’t treat it as a doctrine of the faith, per se.

God’s perspective on clear and unclear are probably a bit different than ours.


205 posted on 06/09/2010 7:38:01 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

correcting missed plural . . . perspectiveS

THANKS.

I don’t know of any Dispy who’d disagree with either of those—certainly not the ‘analogy of faith’ that all Scripture is congruent.

The 2nd one about the clear is never trumped by the unclear . . . more than plausible, though I wouldn’t treat it as a doctrine of the faith, per se.

God’s perspectiveS on clear and unclear are probably a bit different than ours.


206 posted on 06/09/2010 7:38:45 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Paved Paradise
"..several others on here have posted scripture that is very plain (not hard to understand like some scriptures are). Unbelievable. Also, “fundie?” What the heck is that? Oh, you mean people who actually believe the Bible says what it says? Yep, that’s me..."

No, that's NOT what I mean by "fundie".

Fundies are naive and hold an overly literalist understanding of the Bible.

For instance "..This obscure doctrine [Chiliasm] was probably known to but very few except the Fathers of the church, and is very sparingly mentioned by them during the first two centuries; and there is reason to believe that it scarcely attained much notoriety even among the learned Christians, until it was made a matter of controversy by Origen, and then rejected by the great majority. In fact we find Origen himself asserting that it was confined to those of the simpler sort [naive fundies]."(Wadington's History, Page 56).

<>

The heretic Cerinthus -- a contemporary of the Apostle John -- was a millenarian also known as a "chiliast".

Justin Martyr (A.D.150)
CHAP. XI.­WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.

“And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid.” (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)

“Chiliasm found no favor with the best of the Apostolic Fathers... “ (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, v. 25 - 36 ).

Eusebius (A.D.325:

) “This same historian (Papias) also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise certain strange parables of our Lord, and of His doctrine and some other matters rather too fabulous. In these he says there would be a certain millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses; yet he was the cause why most of the ecclesiastical writers, urging the antiquity of man, were carried away by a similar opinion; as, for instance, Irenaeus, or any other that adopted such sentiments. (Book III, Ch. 39)

Epiphanes (315-403:

) “There is indeed a millennium mentioned by St.John; but the most, and those pious men, look upon those words as true indeed, but to be taken in a spiritual sense.” (Heresies, 77:26.)

Etc., etc., ad infinitum.

207 posted on 06/09/2010 7:42:22 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ("If Obama Won, Then Why Won't Democrats Run on His Agenda?" ~ Rush Limbaugh - May 19, 2010)
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To: John Leland 1789
QX: ABSOLUTELY INDEED:

Do you ever get the feeling that there are many who really don’t WANT to believe the Bible anyway? Many who just want to argue with God? N0 faith-obedience?

I’m a Bible-Literalist AND I beieve that the metaphores in the Bible are literally metaphores. I believe the similes in the Bible are literally similes, because I believe words like “as” and “like” literally. Parables are literally parables, too.

Many times, Bible-literalism is criticized simply because the critic wants a natural explanation for everything supernatural. Or does he really want an explanation at all-—God hides things from the wise-guys.

God created natural elements and supernatural elements as well. All of these are referred to in Scripture, and the two are equated by critics to their own confusion.

.

THANKS MUCH.

208 posted on 06/09/2010 7:42:59 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
ABSOLUTELY! THX.

Gee, Quix, if we didn't know better we might be led to believe that the believers of the OT were given no opportunity at salvation by God because God hadn't brought forth the Messiah at that time. We might be led to believe that those people were thrown into hell because of a choice made by God.

What a monster that would make God.

But we do know better, and we do know that the believing Jews of that time, who met the faith and obedience requirements of God at that time, were saved and we will see them in Heaven.

Praise God for His compassion and faithfulness!

.

AMEN.

209 posted on 06/09/2010 7:45:07 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: roamer_1

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

In a bit of a rush or I’d repost with formatting and colors. LOL.

LUB


210 posted on 06/09/2010 7:46:43 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Matchett-PI

Considering YOUR definition of a “fundie,” you have no right to call me that. You know nothing. I can assure you that I am neither naive nor “overly literalist,” so when the Scripture says “hand of God,” unlike Benny Hinn (a wacko) I do not believe it means that God is literally using a physical hand. However, the Bible is literal in many places and, unlike liberals and those who have tried to diminish scripture, I believe that there is a literal Hell, there was a literal Noah, that there is a devil and so on.


211 posted on 06/09/2010 8:49:18 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Quix
In a bit of a rush or I’d repost with formatting and colors.

If you can't say it in flat ASCII, work on it until you can.

212 posted on 06/09/2010 9:03:28 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (There’s been an explosion down at the HTML factory! Run for your lives!)
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To: Paved Paradise
You know

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

213 posted on 06/09/2010 9:11:56 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

You need to address this to the other guy too then. He made it personal first.


214 posted on 06/09/2010 9:22:16 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Paved Paradise
My profile page contains the Religion Forum guidelines.

Among these is that when I have warned one Freeper in a sidebar, all those involved in the sidebar should consider themselves warned as well.

This is based on the principle that two wrongs do not make a right.

215 posted on 06/09/2010 9:28:10 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Paved Paradise
"... “fundie,” you have no right to call me that."

As you KNOW, I didn't call you by ANY name (fundie or otherwise).

I said it was a fundie "teaching". At this point in your understanding, you want to believe that teaching -- a teaching you did not come up with on your own since it dates back, and was viewed as a heretical belief, clear back in the first century:

"Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? Or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race" (Justin Martyr, *Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew* "Christ is the King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race" Ch. CXXXV, c. A.D. 150).

As I quoted before, the "obscure doctrine of Chialism/Millennarianism] was confined to those of the simpler sort." [per Origen](Waddington's History, pg. 56

Read 2 Peter 3 alongside of 1 Corinthians 3.

Premillennialism is destroyed by these Scriptures.

216 posted on 06/09/2010 9:58:24 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ("If Obama Won, Then Why Won't Democrats Run on His Agenda?" ~ Rush Limbaugh - May 19, 2010)
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To: Religion Moderator

Yes, indeed. However, I have noted in other notes from the moderators that the message is always sent to the “perpetrator” of the violation. The other individual on here called me a fundie and then explained his definition of it, which was a personal attack. He knows nothing about me but I was hasty and left off the “about me” in my response post.

And for whatever it’s worth (and this was the regular moderator), I had a poster on here write something extremely sexually vulgar on here to me. I am a woman and the poster was a man. I notified the moderator and nothing was done and the disgusting and filthy remark was left on here. Lovely.

I guess my point is that you “moderators” tend to sometimes get on people for very minimal violations while others who make what I consider fairly egregious offenses are left to roam.

Enough said.


217 posted on 06/09/2010 10:01:50 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Paved Paradise
The guidelines for the Religion Forum are different because the subject matter is very sensitive and flame wars can ignite easily.

Vulgarity and profanity are not allowed on the RF - whether directly or by reference. If that happens to you on the RF, ping me.

Likewise, here on the RF we can and do hold posters to a higher standard, e.g. not "making it personal" by reading the other poster's mind.

"Open" RF threads can be particularly offensive because posters argue for/against in a town square format. The other thread types "prayer" "devotional" "caucus" and "ecumenical" offer safe harbor for anyone uncomfortable with the town square format.

218 posted on 06/09/2010 10:17:57 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Lee N. Field

I haven’t hired you as my style coach, supervisor, editor, kibitzer, sounding board, commentator, graphics designer, critic, opinion spewer, . . .

and likely never will.

However, feel free . . . I’m sure many find such pontifications amusingly absurd.


219 posted on 06/09/2010 10:25:55 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Religion Moderator

I totally get that. Like I said, I was only defending myself against attack. Meanwhile, I have probably hit the abuse button a max of about three times in about eight years because I know people can be “passionate,” and for the most part, this is a good place. I get way worse attacks from my liberal friends on facebook. Good day.


220 posted on 06/09/2010 10:28:32 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: roamer_1; mountn man; Quix

Thank you! You found the exact passage I was thinking of, that I read last week.

I think we’re all on the same page here.

As Quix related, I’m too hard on myself sometimes... A little too worried about what others think as well at times! Both things I need to work on within myself - with God’s help! :)

Thank you so much for explaining exactly what I was trying to relate, and much better than I could. I certainly do pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, and for peace throughout the world, but I am very aware that there are signs we are seeing RIGHT NOW, at this very moment that we have been told about for thousands of years through scripture.

It IS very exciting in the way you expressed that we KNOW God is true to His Word, and He will triumph over all in the end. I’ve also personally had a feeling since I was a young child that I will be here on Earth to see at least some of these things come to pass. I just wish it didn’t have to be so... Obviously, we all wish it didn’t HAVE to be - but it will. At least those of us with our eyes on God can be comforted by the fact that His promise to us is everlasting.

Thanks again for your post! :)


221 posted on 06/09/2010 10:33:45 AM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Matchett-PI

NONSENSE.

NOT BY A LONG SHOT.


222 posted on 06/09/2010 10:44:28 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix
Not everyone appreciates bright shiny objects.
223 posted on 06/09/2010 2:24:17 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You fool! Don't you know every Taurus purchased brings us closer to TEOTWAWKI?")
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To: topcat54

I normally do not post on “theology” threads because I try to limit my posts on FR to “political”. But I thought this was an interesting thread in light of current events. I will withhold my personal opinion unless asked for in PRIVATE, but a good read nonetheless..

David


224 posted on 06/09/2010 3:20:26 PM PDT by davidosborne (DavidOsborneDotZurvitaDotBiz)
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To: Paved Paradise

“But how does he KNOW there won’t be a rapture?”

He doesn’t. Just who does he think will man the armies of good at the battle of Armageddon?? :)

I don’t when it will happen but the “rapture” will occur.

Those that deny it, well, they’ll be in for a big surprise and it certainly won’t be a secret!


225 posted on 06/09/2010 3:45:06 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: swmobuffalo
"..the “rapture” will occur. Those that deny it, well, they’ll be in for a big surprise and it certainly won’t be a secret!"

Read 2 Peter 3 alongside of 1 Corinthians 3

The "Rapture" (and all forms of "Premillennialism") is destroyed by these Scriptures. Christ speaks of a 'final day'. He speaks of a single general judgment and resurrection. Acts tells us that the heavens must receive him until the restitution of ALL things. That's the New Heavens and the New Earth. The risen Christ is now "The Temple"; Christians are "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

More HERE, HERE, and HERE

226 posted on 06/09/2010 4:40:11 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("If Obama Won, Then Why Won't Democrats Run on His Agenda?" ~ Rush Limbaugh - May 19, 2010)
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To: Quix
Did you see this?

Some fascinating stuff!

227 posted on 06/09/2010 4:51:46 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; GiovannaNicoletta
Since I believe (and from my reading, historical Christianity believed) that the millennium reign of Christ began at the cross and will run for a period of time until Christ returns and history ends, it makes sense that the binding of Satan occurred when Christ triumphed over death.

Satan is not bound.

John 12:31 ...now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Note that Jesus didn't say bound and thrown in a pit. Cast out means pushed outside.

If Satan is bound how can he continue to deceive people.

IICor.4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded,...

Eph.2:2...the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience

1Pet.5:8...your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion...

I think you see from these verses that Satan is still doing his best to destroy as many people as possible. I think he gives special attention to the Jews and Israel because if he can destroy them he may stop Jesus Christ from ushering in the millennium, since the Tribulation is all about opening the eyes and hearts of the Jews.

Augustinian Replacement Theology just happens to coincide with the emergence of a dominant state church. It certainly helps to support it's claims that it (the state church) has control over all things religious, since in this doctrine it is paving the way for Jesus Christ to return and set up the Kingdom of God. It's not surprising Chiliasm (the belief in a future millennium) was branded heretical. Just look at some of the anathema's from Trent, anything that doesn't work to enhancing the power or authority of the state church is always treated as error.

I've pinged some others I thought might have some interest.

228 posted on 06/09/2010 5:25:37 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; dartuser; wmfights; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings; topcat54; raynearhood; ...
First, HERE is a nifty little history and critique of dispensationalism which began in England around 1830 and drifted to the U.S. by 1870...

What about the Thessalonians that thought they had missed the Rapture. They predate Augustinian Replacement Theology by about 300 yrs.

What about Chiliasm that predates the idea that a state church will pave the way for Jesus Christ to return.

From what I can tell dispensationalism is consistent with these earlier premillenial views.

229 posted on 06/09/2010 5:37:12 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
If Satan is bound how can he continue to deceive people.

Satan continues to tempt all men. Those who have not been redeemed by Christ; those who do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be deceived and succumb to Satan. Those who belong to Christ, those whose names were declared "God's family" from before the foundation of the world will NOT be deceived and succumb to Satan.

This idea that Satan is running around outside the perfect, ordained control of God is a hallmark of Arminians. However, Calvinists know that Satan, like all creatures, is a created being and as such, he carries out the will of God, one way or another.

Do you think Satan could tempt you away from Christ? Is that a real possibility, given John 6, 10, 12, etc.?

Sometimes it seems the Baptist's rightful loathing of a state church spills over into a distaste for a strong church against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

Don't be afraid of the real church. It is mighty and its head has already won the battle over death and sin. He has risen.

230 posted on 06/09/2010 5:42:59 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights
There will be no rapture. There is time and space, and then one day Christ will return to earth and history will end and all will be judged.

In the blink of an eye.

231 posted on 06/09/2010 5:44:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: roamer_1; kevao; Quix; streetpreacher
...while I am not a purebred Dispensationalist...

I'm not sure I know what one is, but I know Scripture makes so much more sense when you see that God is not done with Israel.

232 posted on 06/09/2010 5:46:55 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Satan continues to tempt all men.

Thank you.

Those who have not been redeemed by Christ; those who do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be deceived and succumb to Satan. Those who belong to Christ, those whose names were declared "God's family" from before the foundation of the world will NOT be deceived and succumb to Satan.

I'm with you on this 100%. God will have all the people at the end He knew He would have from before the beginning.

This idea that Satan is running around outside the perfect, ordained control of God is a hallmark of Arminians.

It may be, but premillenialism does not mean God is not in control.

Do you think Satan could tempt you away from Christ? Is that a real possibility

It can't happen, but not because of me. Jesus Christ has me in his hand and nothing can take me out of it.

Sometimes it seems the Baptist's rightful loathing of a state church spills over into a distaste for a strong church against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

The only strong church that the gates of Hell can't prevail against is the body of Christ.

Politics perverting interpretation is what I loath. A state church doing this is to be expected.

233 posted on 06/09/2010 6:02:55 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
So if Satan tempts all men, but he is not capable of overwhelming you, is Satan bound or not?

Of course he is. Or you would succumb to him just like the non-believer down the street.

Christ has check-mated him.

"Get thee behind me, Satan."

Does he or not?

234 posted on 06/09/2010 6:10:09 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights

And the fact that Satan is bound does not mean Satan is dead.

It means Satan cannot have what he wants most — the lives and souls of Christ’s sheep.


235 posted on 06/09/2010 6:12:12 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights
What about the Thessalonians that thought they had missed the Rapture. They predate Augustinian Replacement Theology by about 300 yrs.

What about Chiliasm that predates the idea that a state church will pave the way for Jesus Christ to return.

From what I can tell dispensationalism is consistent with these earlier premillenial views.

You strike me as someone who might actually read something. Could I suggest Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity.

The executive summary is, no, modern dispensationalism does not greatly resemble the eschatology of those early Christians who were chiliasts (and not all were).

236 posted on 06/09/2010 6:26:05 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You fool! Don't you know every Taurus purchased brings us closer to TEOTWAWKI?")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So if Satan tempts all men, but he is not capable of overwhelming you, is Satan bound or not?

Nope, not even close. He is not bound, but as a Christian he can only do to me what God allows and he can never cause me to lose my salvation.

Of course he is. Or you would succumb to him just like the non-believer down the street.

Now you're starting to sound like those free will Arminians. ;)

Satan is a roaring lion, the prince of the air, constantly seeking to deceive. Look at all the Mary apparitions that have people praying to her instead of Jesus. Satan is out and about.

I know you will argue your view to the end, but just look at Romans 11. Israel is only blinded until God has all of us He intends to have. IOW, God is not done with Israel. If this is true (and it is!) then the theological belief that Christians have assumed all the unfulfilled promises given to Israel is wrong.

237 posted on 06/09/2010 6:28:39 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Matchett-PI
The "Rapture" (and all forms of "Premillennialism") is destroyed by these Scriptures. Christ speaks of a 'final day'. He speaks of a single general judgment and resurrection. Acts tells us that the heavens must receive him until the restitution of ALL things. That's the New Heavens and the New Earth. The risen Christ is now "The Temple"; Christians are "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".


238 posted on 06/09/2010 6:29:21 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You fool! Don't you know every Taurus purchased brings us closer to TEOTWAWKI?")
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To: Lee N. Field
You strike me as someone who might actually read something. Could I suggest Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity.

I will take that as a compliment and I will put it on the long list of books I'm working my way through. :)

239 posted on 06/09/2010 6:31:42 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
as a Christian he can only do to me what God allows and he can never cause me to lose my salvation.

Was that true before the crucifixion and resurrection? Or have things changed now that Christ has defeated Satan on the cross?

There is a difference between the nation of Israel and spiritual Israel. All men everywhere today are called to kneel to Christ alone. Nothing is postponed.

I don't think dispensationalists realize how much they devalue Christ's sacrifice, as if it wasn't finished. As if it didn't conquer death and sin.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" -- Titus 2:11

None is without excuse. But by the grace of God all those who have been reborn in order to love His appearing have been snatched from Satan and stamped with His signet of adoption.

240 posted on 06/09/2010 6:38:51 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights
I know you will argue your view to the end

lol. Arguing the end to the end. 8~)

241 posted on 06/09/2010 6:40:39 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Lee N. Field

Yep! bttt


242 posted on 06/09/2010 7:14:39 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("If Obama Won, Then Why Won't Democrats Run on His Agenda?" ~ Rush Limbaugh - May 19, 2010)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

THX WILL CHECK IT OUT.


243 posted on 06/09/2010 7:55:16 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

THX THX.


244 posted on 06/09/2010 8:16:51 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Lee N. Field

On the other hand, with different fingers,

shiny broken links are so entertaining to the rabid clique sorts . . .

evidently.


245 posted on 06/09/2010 8:18:06 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: wmfights

worthy points, imho.

THX.


246 posted on 06/09/2010 8:19:04 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: wmfights

What about the Thessalonians that thought they had missed the Rapture. They predate Augustinian Replacement Theology by about 300 yrs.

What about Chiliasm that predates the idea that a state church will pave the way for Jesus Christ to return.

From what I can tell dispensationalism is consistent with these earlier premillenial views.


ABSOLUTELY, INDEED.

THX.


247 posted on 06/09/2010 8:20:05 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I still think your eschatology is incredibly out of whack with Scripture, history and reality.


248 posted on 06/09/2010 8:21:16 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix

That’s okay. We’ll know the truth one day when we meet up in heaven. 8~)


249 posted on 06/09/2010 8:29:54 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Quix
On the other hand, with different fingers, shiny broken links are so entertaining to the rabbit clik sorts . . . evidently.

It's a school night. Catch up on your sleep and try again tomorrow.

250 posted on 06/09/2010 8:43:10 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You fool! Don't you know every Taurus purchased brings us closer to TEOTWAWKI?")
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