Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54
I suspect someones prejudice is showing.
Of course, but frustration is a good percentage of the mix.
Maybe we all get too combative when we are on opposite sides of something. I really enjoy the arguments because it pushes me to learn more, but I don't particularly enjoy it when we end up playing "gotcha".
If it's asserted that all the covenant promises given to Israel are now given to Christians aren't the Christians replacing Israel?
If God is done with the Jews and given all the benefits to Christians why has God partially blinded them?
God is "done with the Jews" insofar as the writer of Hebrews tells us...
"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13
God has indeed "given all the benefits to the Christians."
It's sort of startling to read otherwise.
The Jews were partially blinded so that the Gentiles would believe. God no longer saves men by their own blood or race or nationality, but by Christ's blood alone. Jews are called to kneel to Christ just like you and me and Buddhhists and Mormons and atheists and democrats.
Christ tells us exactly what has transpired in the entire chapter of John 8...
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:31-32"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Later, Paul, a Jew, weeps for his brothers who have not been given faith in Christ. He does, however, hope and pray for their eventual conversion.
And since you are agreed that Satan cannot possibly steal you out of God's hand; that the Shepherd will protect every member of His flock, no matter what, then it only seems reasonable to believe that Satan is indeed bound. He still prowls and still beguiles and destroys the reprobate. But he is impotent against those for whom Christ died.
Bound. Not dead. Bound. Restricted.
Interesting perspective. Since I believe the OT was written expressly to presage Christ who was then fully revealed in the NT, I agree with your distinction.
"For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." -- Isaiah 53:2-10"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13
I'm not sure I would have phrased it quite that way, but I do agree that they were saved through faith. The superstars of the Bible in Hebrews 11 all acted on faith. Would you agree that this was different than after the cross?
After the cross it is Faith in The Gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Jesus) but that was a mystery even to the Apostles before cross. Israel was looking for a physical, political, earthly Kingdom with it's King the Messiah, just like the Amils today.
Also, where did the souls of those superstars of the Bible go prior to the cross. I believe Luke 16:19-31 tells us. However after the cross we no longer go to Abraham's bosom, aka paradise. Now we go straight to our Lord Jesus Christ. Another clear distinction between before the cross and after the cross.
IOW, we do clearly see different dispensations between before the cross and after.
The Jews were partially blinded so that the Gentiles would believe. God no longer saves men by their own blood or race or nationality, but by Christ's blood alone.
I've never said otherwise and I haven't heard any premillenialists say otherwise.
And Scripture clearly says that when God has saved all the Gentiles He intends to save Israel (Jews). The only way for this to happen is for them to believe The Gospel, which is exactly what happens during the Tribulation.
And since you are agreed that Satan cannot possibly steal you out of God's hand; that the Shepherd will protect every member of His flock, no matter what, then it only seems reasonable to believe that Satan is indeed bound.
No it does not.
Let me give you a different way to look at this. During Passover the Jewish homes with blood on the posts and lentils were saved, but those without it died. Today we are protected because we are Jesus' flock, but outside of this protection others suffer.
Nah ... like you, we are all busy and must prioritize our list of scholarly reading material.
Not my idea but I have latched onto it as I think Dr Stallard is correct in his thesis. I really would encourage everyone who participates on this board to read Dr Stallards paper. He really does a great job of surveying both side (yes, he is a dispensationalist) and really highlights the fact that when a dispensationalist says "literal interpratation" and a non-dispensationalist says "literal interpreatation" they are talking about two different things.
The non-dispensationalist is likely to come away from the article with a more tempered view of dispensationalists ... and vice versa. He takes the time to quote many authors that the non-disp folks would appreciate (Ladd, Poythress, etc.)
Therein lies the folly of Replacement Theology:
The Covenants, BOTH of them, are made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel - Just to be sure: the Covenant with both Great Houses of Israel precludes any assumption that "spiritual Israel" can be assumed. This is national Israel. Christians are grafted into the Covenant, and thereby beneficiary. But the children of the Gentiles are adopted in, where the natural branches exist:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
What is "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away?" It is not gone. it is only "waxing old." When does/did this Covenant disappear? Obviously not with Christ's death, resurrection, or ascension... All of these were already history at the time of this writing...
The Jews were partially blinded so that the Gentiles would believe.
No, The Jews were blinded so that the gentiles could believe... Time for the gentiles to hear and repent... the Church age - It is written that when Israel says (as a nation) "Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord," It is all over.
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Reading through the OT, how many unrighteous Israelites did God save?
I'm not sure that's a good way to frame the question. Clearly, there were souls in Abraham's bossom so some people were saved. Also, Hebrews 11 gives us the superstars of the OT and they were saved.
If you like, use repentance as righteousness, the fear of the Lord and eschewing evil as well. Add to that, keeping the Law.
If God didn't save these unrighteous ones, why not? they were Israelites. Weren't they in the covenants? In fact, time after time, we see great numbers of them destroyed and only a remnant saved.
Before the Cross these saints had faith in God, but they didn't have any idea that Jesus Christ would offer the perfect sacrifice for our sins. IOW, they had faith but not in The Gospel that we've been given after the Cross. We see two dispensations one before and one after the Cross.
In fact, time after time, we see great numbers of them destroyed and only a remnant saved.
But we see this in Christianity today. There are large churches that don't preach The Gospel. Instead we see a mish mash of universalism and works dependent salvation.
Everyone who has heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation and refuses to believe it, is without excuse.
Since God, and God alone, has always been the only Savior, I for one, can't see these "two dispensations".
bttt
But their expectation was that the Messiah would set up a physical, political, religious Kingdom on earth that all nations would look to. They had no idea that the Messiah was coming to set up a spiritual Kingdom. The Gospel was even hid from the Apostles. It was only revealed after the Cross.
Luke 18:31-34
Of course some had faith in the coming of the Christ. That's the point of the Old Testament. The remnant always would be saved, according to God's grace through faith. Read Isaiah 53...
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Psalm 53 isn't talking about a physical army or a victorious warrior. It's telling us of the coming of the Savior who, as a sheep to the slaughter, will take the burden of our sins onto Himself and redeem men through His sacrifice.
One God; one plan of salvation; one dispensation; one remnant; one faith; one Scripture; one Savior.
.Christ came to them, not to us
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.