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Finders Keepers? - The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical.
Envoy ^ | Jan/Feb 1997 | TIM STAPLES

Posted on 06/27/2010 3:10:25 AM PDT by GonzoII

Scenario:

You're discussing religion with an Evangelical friend. For 20 minutes you've responded as best you can to her pointed arguments against Catholic doctrines like Mary's perpetual virginity, praying to saints, venerating statues, and purgatory. She's unconvinced. You're frustrated. It doesn't look like there's much of a chance you'll agree on anything.

Then comes the jackpot question. "Look," she says earnestly, "we can disagree about many things, but what's most important is that we know we can be saved by Jesus Christ. Tell me, if you were to die tonight, do you know for sure if you'd go to heaven?"

This is the "all-important" question for Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. Although your friend is completely sincere in asking this question (as she's been coached to do by her pastor and the anti-Catholic radio preacher she listens to in the afternoon), you realize that if you don't answer correctly, you'll walk into a sort of theological ambush.

If you respond that Christians can't, apart from a special revelation from God, have metaphysical or absolute certainty concerning their salvation, a completely biblical and theologically precise answer, your Evangelical friend will gleefully spring a "trap" on you, based on 1 John 5:13: "These things I write to you, that you may know you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God."

"See?" she smiles confidently. "The Bible disagrees with you!" She then proceeds to inform you that if you "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).

(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; freformed; salvation; scripture
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Rom 11:22 "...but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou continue in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. "
1 posted on 06/27/2010 3:10:34 AM PDT by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII
So why is this age old argument “News” - and not “religion”...?
2 posted on 06/27/2010 3:18:20 AM PDT by VRWCTexan
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To: GonzoII
Rom 11:22 isn't speaking about individual salvation, it is speaking of the fact that the Gentiles are now grafted into the salvation of Abraham-by faith without works (Rom.4) which is a stumblingstone to the Jew (Rom 9:30-33)
3 posted on 06/27/2010 3:28:06 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration

I think any way you want to look at this passage it is clear you can be cut off.


4 posted on 06/27/2010 3:36:45 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: VRWCTexan

It appears to be “Religion” to me.


5 posted on 06/27/2010 3:38:01 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
First, the verse is speaking to Gentiles as a group, that they shouldn't get 'cocky' about the Jew being set aside for awhile.(Rom.11:20)

Second, 'being cut off' has nothing to do with losing one's eternal salvation.

In the passage, the Jews are unsaved not saved who became unsaved.

It is speaking of God turning once again to focus on the Jew instead of the Gentile in giving the Gospel

You don't work to get saved and you don't work to stay saved.

6 posted on 06/27/2010 3:50:10 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration
"You don't work to get saved and you don't work to stay saved."

If you don't keep the Commandments, Bud, you can't make it to Heaven, the Bible is clear on that.

7 posted on 06/27/2010 3:52:21 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
"If you don't keep the Commandments, Bud, you can't make it to Heaven, the Bible is clear on that."

If that were true then no one would ever get to Heaven because other than Jesus no one has ever kept all the 10 Commandments. In fact the entire point of the Gospel is that Jesus saves even those who haven't kept all the Commandments.

8 posted on 06/27/2010 3:58:18 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: All

How many people reading this thread have ever even read the bible?

All of it? Every single word? Even the “boring” parts?

How many?


9 posted on 06/27/2010 3:58:43 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: GonzoII
No one can keep the Commandments, and the Bible is very clear on that (1Jn.1:8)

If you break one, you break them all! (Ja.2:10)

The only way to get saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for your sins and rose from the dead.

He did all the work, that is why salvation is by faith, that it might be by grace (Rom.4:16).

Grace and works don't mix (Eph.2:8-9, Rom.4:4-5).

Do you really think you are going to make it to heaven because you kept the Commandments?

That was exactly what the rich, young ruler thought until the Lord exposed his hidden sin.

10 posted on 06/27/2010 4:15:24 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: GonzoII

I find this article offensive. Can I have you banned and then stoned to death? :-)


11 posted on 06/27/2010 4:26:46 AM PDT by Lloyd227 (Class of 1998 (let's all help the Team McCain spider monkeys decide how to moderate))
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To: Lloyd227
"Can I have you banned and then stoned to death? :-)"

There are no stones left..tar and feathers....?

12 posted on 06/27/2010 4:34:29 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: circlecity

Jesus said “keep the Commandments”.


13 posted on 06/27/2010 4:35:52 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Are you saved by grace or law?


14 posted on 06/27/2010 4:37:41 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: DJ MacWoW
"Are you saved by grace or law? "

Grace.

And with Him by whom all things are possible I can keep the Commandmants which he commanded me to do if I am to enter into eternal life.

Mt 19:17 "But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. "

15 posted on 06/27/2010 4:51:24 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
"Jesus said “keep the Commandments”.

And that is certainly a worthy ambition, just as Jesus' command to "be perfect just as your Father in Heaven is perfect". Unfortunately no one can do this, which is why we need a Savior. If anyone could keep the commandments on his own there would have been no need of Jesus. This is why I seek mercy not justice. The law kills but the Gospel gives eternal life.

16 posted on 06/27/2010 4:51:47 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: GonzoII
Then we must need the grace because we can't keep the law.
17 posted on 06/27/2010 4:56:36 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: circlecity
"Unfortunately no one can do this, which is why we need a Savior. If anyone could keep the commandments on his own there would have been no need of Jesus."

I didn't say I wasn't in need of a Savior. You are correct we need a Savior to save us. We also need His help to keep the Commandments. Would God ask the impossible? With Him all things are possible.

18 posted on 06/27/2010 4:56:51 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Once saved always saved. We still do things we shouldn’t but now our sin is covered by the blood of Jesus dying on the cross. Not perfect, but forgiven.
How would you ever have assurance of eternal life in heaven and the peace that goes with that if you had to constantly worry if you were good enough.No one is perfect except Jesus Christ and Adam & Eve till they disobeyed God.


19 posted on 06/27/2010 4:58:12 AM PDT by surelyclintonsbaddream (show us your birth certificate---millions of babies can't show us theirs)
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To: DJ MacWoW
"we can't keep the law."

Then you make Christ sound silly for commanding us to to keep it. And I'm talking about the Ten Commandments not the old Jewish precepts aside from the Decalogue.

20 posted on 06/27/2010 4:59:27 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
If we could keep the Ten Commandments or ANY of the law, we wouldn't have needed Jesus. Of course He told us to keep the Commandments. He also told us not to sin. But we have a sin nature. That's the reason that we needed Him.

I do not believe in "once saved always saved". I believe that we can lose salvation through unrepentant sin. I also believe that those that struggle with sin, and honestly try, will be saved. When we lose a battle, one gets up and starts anew. The attitude of our heart is what makes the difference.

21 posted on 06/27/2010 5:08:36 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: GonzoII

But doesn’t John say “if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us”. And John was writing to Christians when he says this. Note also that John includes himself in this statement saying “we” and “us”. Thus the Apostle John is saying that the entire Church he is writing to, as well as himself, still sins. BUT he also reveals the good news several verses later, “But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus the righteous.” Thus, even Christians (indeed, even one as Holy as the Apostle John) still sin. This is why repentence is a continuous process, not a one time act, and this is also why sanctification will never be completed (”perfection”) in this life, although it is what we work for every minute of every day.


22 posted on 06/27/2010 5:11:30 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Miztiki

Well, I, for one, have. Several times. Front to back in order


23 posted on 06/27/2010 5:33:50 AM PDT by chesley (Lib arguments are neither factual, logical, rational, nor reasonable. They are, however, creative.)
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To: GonzoII

Ahhh...but “the faith of Jesus”!


24 posted on 06/27/2010 5:39:52 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: fortheDeclaration; All

We’re supposed to try, and try extremely hard. We are to strive for perfection. We are to repent (turn from our sins) or we WILL perish.

That’s the “works” part.

Here’s the “grace” part:

“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

The devil believes in Jesus. That belief isn’t going to save the devil though. We all must understand that our modern day definition of the word “belief” is NOT the same as the biblical meaning of what it means to “believe”. Study it, and see for yourself.

We have to repent, which means we have to STOP SINNING, and we have to ask God to forgive us when we fail at that goal.

Our greatest commandment is to love the LORD our God with all our heart and all our soul. We are also supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves.

The command is *not* to have “affection”, but to love - as a verb (something you DO, not just something you feel). This is another term we don’t understand anymore. The biblical meaning of “love” is not the same as our modern understanding of the word “love”.

All of us must heed this warning from Jesus:

“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! [...] Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

We must not allow ourselves to become guilty of that. Know your bible. Know what God’s word is. That is only possible by actually READING it. All of it. Over and over and over. There is nothing more important. NOTHING.

Read all of Matthew chapter 5, especially 5:17, 12:36-37, 15:18-20, 19:17-21, 26, all of chapter 23, 25:31-46.

In John read 8:31-36, 12:44, 47, 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” 14:21 “Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.” (There’s *love* as a verb!) 14:23 “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.” (more verbal love) and “He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.”

There are parallels in Mark, Luke too.

There is MUCH, MUCH more in the rest of the new testament. Go read it! Over and over and over.

And read the old testament over and over too. The bulk of God’s word is in the OLD testament, so don’t neglect it. Please!


25 posted on 06/27/2010 5:43:40 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: Miztiki
How many people reading this thread have ever even read the bible? All of it? Every single word? Even the “boring” parts? How many?

I have - more than once.

26 posted on 06/27/2010 5:44:03 AM PDT by conservativegramma
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To: chesley

You just made my day!


27 posted on 06/27/2010 5:47:39 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: GonzoII

Reminding me to go to confession this morning. Thank you.


28 posted on 06/27/2010 5:47:53 AM PDT by Desdemona (One Havanese is never enough.)
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To: GonzoII
Then you make Christ sound silly for commanding us to to keep it. And I'm talking about the Ten Commandments not the old Jewish precepts aside from the Decalogue.

Well no offense, but you make Christ sound silly with this entire thread:

John 10:28-29:

28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Once you make the 'claim' that salvation can be lost you've just proclaimed Christ is either an idiot or a liar because of His above statement. You choose.

29 posted on 06/27/2010 5:50:06 AM PDT by conservativegramma
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To: conservativegramma; chesley

That’s wonderful to hear! I wish everyone would read their bible.

I have to ask though...

And I’m sorry to ask this, but over the years I’ve probed people about this and found out that their understanding of reading “all” of it is a bit different than what I consider to be “all” of it.

Did you both actually read every single word? All of the geneologies? Both censuses (sp)? The minute details of the tabernacle? The requirements for the priests and Levites? The tedious and repetitious details of the various offerings and sacrifices and feasts?

Did you honestly read every single word of the entire bible, without missing even one word? Honest to God?

If so then wow, I’m really impressed. Most people don’t have the time or inclination.


30 posted on 06/27/2010 5:56:08 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: Miztiki

I have read every word of the Bible - at least 66 of the books of the Bible. Any other questions?


31 posted on 06/27/2010 5:58:38 AM PDT by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal texted me at 0330 on 2/3/10: AMERICA!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
You don't work to get saved and you don't work to stay saved.

James 2:20-24: 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

32 posted on 06/27/2010 5:59:25 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: don-o

Yeah, I do have another question! :-)

How many times?

It does my heart good to know that there are still some people who actually read their bibles!

You really read every single word? Honestly?

If so then thank you. That would make 3 people who say they’ve read the entire bible, and that makes my heart sing.


33 posted on 06/27/2010 6:05:26 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: Miztiki
What is your point? I have read the whole Bible (at least the 66 books that the KJV contains) but I am not a sola scriptura Christian. I once was, but no longer am.
34 posted on 06/27/2010 6:11:37 AM PDT by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal texted me at 0330 on 2/3/10: AMERICA!)
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To: Miztiki

Yes. Every chapter, every verse, Genesis to Revelation. Even Leviticus - LOL.


35 posted on 06/27/2010 6:15:18 AM PDT by conservativegramma
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To: don-o

I have no point. I just said it makes my heart sing to know that people are actually reading their bibles.


36 posted on 06/27/2010 6:20:40 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: don-o

I was wondering, why are you not only focused on scripture now?


37 posted on 06/27/2010 6:23:59 AM PDT by daisy mae for the usa
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To: GonzoII

Not all evangelicals hold to OSAS, and Rm. 11:22, which deals with people groups, is not the strongest verse which indicates that one can willfully deny the faith and forfeit the justification which faith appropriates, which position Gal. 5:14 and Heb. 10:18-39 less disputably supports.

Related to this is the idea held by some that a faith which holds to the promise of eternal life for believers is salvific, though one’s life overall denies it. The “these things” of 1Jn. 5:13 refers to the prior description of what manner of faith constitutes saving faith. The faith that justifies is one that is characterizes by following the Lord, (Jn. 10:27,28) and repenting when he is convicted of not doing so. (2Cor. 7:10,11)

The problem for RC’s however, is that is denies salvation by imputed righteousness, but holds that sprinkled infants realize a constitutional holy change, and that through cooperation with grace dispensed thru RC sacraments, they may be said “to have truly merited eternal life.” (Trent, 1547, The Sixth Session Decree on justification, chapter XVI; cf. Canon 32)

In essence, she preaches salvation by grace thru merit, while effectualy she promotes confidences in her own self-proclaimed power for salvation. Self-proclaimed, as her claim to be the one true and supreme church is effectively based upon her “infallible” declaration that she is infallible, when speaking according to her own infallibly declared conditions.

And despite Rome’s emphasis upon works, in comparison with evangelicals, Roman Catholics typically come in far behind, along with similarly institutionalized Protestant denoms, in evidences of faith commitment and doctrinal fidelity. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Sec4


38 posted on 06/27/2010 6:25:26 AM PDT by daniel1212 ("Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out " (Acts 3:19))
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To: Miztiki

many times since I was 10 and 1/2. Love the Bible.


39 posted on 06/27/2010 6:25:26 AM PDT by daisy mae for the usa
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To: conservativegramma

Maccabbees also???? :)


40 posted on 06/27/2010 6:27:36 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion...the Human Scarifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: daniel1212

Correction on above: Gal. 5:1-4, not 14.


41 posted on 06/27/2010 6:28:55 AM PDT by daniel1212 ("Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out " (Acts 3:19))
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To: conservativegramma

That is just really awesome and makes my day!

I’ve been doing some google searches the last few days, looking for a group or forum of people who love to read their bible, especially those who have done so numerous times. Not too many people read theirs, and some say they wouldn’t bother even if they had all the time in the world. I just don’t understand that way of thinking. I love my bible and I enjoy reading it. It’s my most precious possession.

It’s just nice to know that others read their bible too. It makes me feel less alone, if you know what I mean. I’ve never met anyone in real life who has actually read all of it, let alone numerous times, so my heart is singing a bit this morning. :)


42 posted on 06/27/2010 6:29:48 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: daisy mae for the usa

4 people now! LOL! It’s like a dying breed almost, you know? Like Americans who have never read the Constitution. It’s just so nice to see your reply. Thanks!


43 posted on 06/27/2010 6:37:18 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: daisy mae for the usa
why are you not only focused on scripture now?

The Bible tells me that the church - (not the Bible) is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

This discussion is ongoing all over the religion board. And I always fail to get a cogent response to one question I have.

To wit: Why do "Bible only" Christians come away from the same authority with disagreement? If the Bible is supposed to be a rule book, why no consensus on what it demands?

44 posted on 06/27/2010 6:58:29 AM PDT by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal texted me at 0330 on 2/3/10: AMERICA!)
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To: Miztiki

Count me as #4 then, I am still fascinated by the trivial details. and plan on another read of every single little word again. I learn more each time I read it.


45 posted on 06/27/2010 7:00:37 AM PDT by rightly_dividing
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To: GonzoII

“If you don’t keep the Commandments, Bud,” you never converted in the first place. If you have been born again - made a new creation by the power of God - do you think you can uncreate yourself?

A changed life is the result of salvation, not the procedure by which we earn it.


46 posted on 06/27/2010 7:01:40 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (When the ass brays, don't reply...)
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To: don-o; daisy mae for the usa
Why do "Bible only" Christians come away from the same authority with disagreement? If the Bible is supposed to be a rule book, why no consensus on what it demands?

Because we are fallible humans. If we were perfect, with perfect understanding, we wouldn't be here.

47 posted on 06/27/2010 7:03:18 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Miztiki

I have also read every word of our Constitution. Seems that people state it says this or that, so I decided to read every word of it.


48 posted on 06/27/2010 7:07:35 AM PDT by rightly_dividing
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To: GonzoII
If you don't keep the Commandments, Bud, you can't make it to Heaven, the Bible is clear on that.

Then why did we need a new religion two thousand years ago when G-d had already provided one?

49 posted on 06/27/2010 7:08:05 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lakhen 'emor, hinni noten lo 'et-beriti shalom.)
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To: Ann Archy
Maccabbees also???? :)

Wisdom (beautiful book), Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach, one of my favorites), Tobias (Tobit, journey along to a great marriage), Judith, and Baruch, too.

50 posted on 06/27/2010 7:16:32 AM PDT by Desdemona (One Havanese is never enough.)
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