How did Jacob see *GOD* Face to Face? Genesis 32:30

Vanity | July 5th, 2010 | TaraP

[TaraP]

Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

GENESIS 32:28-31

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast revailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said: Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?

And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel (Pineal): for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. And as he passed over Peniel (Pineal) the sun rose upon him, and halted upon his thigh."

Was Jacob seeing GOD through his *Pineal Gland*

The Pineal Gland is about the size of a pea, and is in the center of the brain in a tiny cave, behind and above the pituitary gland, which lies a little behind the root of the nose. It is located directly behind the eyes, attached to the third ventricle.

[Tzfat]

The Zohar is a serious book. No silliness there...

[Tzfat]

Do you understand English?

LOL. I suspect better than you understand Hebrew. But if by your question you were meaning to be rude, then might I suggest that you try again in Hebrew... or better yet, do it in Greek. Hellenistic "Jesus" might even overlook it if you did it in Greek!

[boatbums]

My opinion is that we relate to God through our God-given spirit. It cannot be through a physical organ (Pineal Gland) as many other mammals also have this gland and the same function of sleep and seasonal rythmns are specific to it in them as well. Besides, if the Lord used a person’s pineal to communicate, what happens to someone who has his removed due to disease, he can’t pray anymore? The science also says this gland is normally calcified by the time we reach adulthood.

[papabrody]

And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] “I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved.”

From the Chumash the Lubavitchers use. No Rashi commentary either. Pretty self-explanatory.

As they say “Don’t mess with the Zohar.”

[boatbums]

In further reading about the “third eye”, as the pineal gland is often referred, it is believed by the New-Agers and other occults to be the way humans can interact with the gods or goddesses. I would stay away from that junk if I were you.

[Tzfat]

I forgot to add the wink to my previous reply. Seriously, the Zohar has some rather odd things in it. It is a lot of fun, but I would not use it for definitive answers.

[Star Traveler]

You were saying ...

Ah, no. Please put down the English Bible and rethink what what "literally means" ...really means.

Well, before you "put down the English Bible" - I would suggest reading this ... :-)

Genesis Chapter 32

24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the
breaking of day.

25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the
socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He
wrestled with him.

26 And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks." But he said, "I will
not let You go unless You bless me!"

27 So He said to him, "What is your name?" He said, "Jacob."

28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;
for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

29 Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray." And He said,
"Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God
face to face, and my life is preserved."

31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on
his hip.

32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle
that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket
of Jacob's hip in the muscle that shrank.

It's pretty clear that's about as "face-to-face" as someone can get ... LOL ...

[Tzfat]

It's pretty clear that's about as "face-to-face" as someone can get

Spoken as one who hasn't any experience with a Semitic culture or language. I could show you the silliness of your English argument, by showing you the silliness English idioms, but it would be wasted... So, just do yourself a favor and pick up an interlinear Bible and educate yourself. In the long run, it will be less embarassing for you.

[TaraP]

I realize that *New Age* stuff uses biblical and mystical idioms for their beliefs....I am more or less asking if the Scientific and Biblical meanings go hand and hand, which I think they do, sice we are created in the image and likeness of G-D.

I think the Shroud of Turin is what triggers my biblical and spiritual curiosity. If we connect to G-D in the Spiritual it must come to us via somewhere...That is why I asked about the Pineal Gland.

[Quix]

Kissing close in a headlock would be pretty face to face alright! LOL.

Will be interesting to find out exactly what did go on.

The Scripture is at least as mysterious as it is informative.

[Jack Hydrazine]

Learn Hebrew and go study the Torah with the rabbis. You will learn way, way, way more than what any Christian can teach you.

Jews have always defined God as spirit and not flesh. Many Jews have died sticking with that belief because the nations wanted God to be a flesh-and-blood God.

[TaraP]

There are *Hidden Meanings* in scripture, so yes Hebrew does address those meanings....Just like the word *Death* when we think of that to mean *We cease to exist* any longer, but G-D does not see it that way..Death is seperation Soul from Physical body...

*Obliterate* is how G-D sees something or someone who will cease to exist.

[Tzfat]

Learn Hebrew and go study the Torah with the rabbis. You will learn way, way, way more than what any Christian can teach you.

Don't confuse him. He thinks that he can understand pshat by reading the King James Version. Their blindness is caused by failing to look past their bias and let the language of the Bible to speak for itself. Self-induced myopia.

[Jack Hydrazine]

Yeah, well I like pointing them in the right direction even if they aren’t interested in really knowing or going there.

When ever Christians bring up the whole man-is-God-is-man issue I just like to ask about his outstretched arm and hand reaching down from low earth orbit to part the Yam Suf and defeat the Paraoh’s Egyptian army.

Man wanting to elevate himself to the status of God and man trying to lower the status of God by making him physical has been a problem from the very beginning of time. When mankind will ever figure it out only He knows.

[count-your-change]

Do you understand English was a serious question since you only used part of the sentence I wrote. Anyone who does understand English knows what a parenthetical phrase is and knows “in Greek” is such a phrase set off by commas.

That means that I was quoting, in Greek, Jesus’ words no matter what language he actually used at the time.

Just as English translations quote his words, in English, no matter what language he was speaking at the time.

If I were attempting to be rude there would be no doubt as I would use some silliness like “LOL...LOL”

[Guyin4Os]

It's pretty clear that's about as "face-to-face" as someone can get

Exactly. Furthermore, "Pani-El" means literally, "Face of God." (Not the peneal gland).

[Iscool]

The Hebrew text of B'reshit. When one speaks Hebrew, one does not need the English translation to read it.

You said that the phrase was "literal" correlated to your doctrinal perspective. That statement as not true.

I didn't make that statement...And there was no mention of doctrine...

You are welcome to your tradition, but don't accuse others of bblasphemy based on your lack of knowledge of the original Hebrew.

I didn't accuse you or anyone of blasphemy...I asked you to translate the verse in English from 'your' Hebrew source...Maybe you can't do that with your 'new age' Greek texts...

[Tzfat]

That means that I was quoting, in Greek, Jesus’ words no matter what language he actually used at the time.

I apologize for misunderstanding.

[Tzfat]

I asked you to translate the verse in English from 'your' Hebrew source

Well, it isn't "my" Hebrew source. It is from the Mesorah - where 95% of all Bibles get their Hebrew Scriptures, but here you go, transliterated in a literal, mechanical translation:

vayikra Ya'akov shem hamakom p'niel ki-raiti ekohim panyim el-panyim vatinatzel nafshi

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived/saw/sensed Ekohim sides to sides and rescued/preserved my soul.

I have circumlocuted reference to G-d by adding a koof ["k"], although the word is also used for angels. I have provided multiple words where there is no direct translation. Ask anyone who speaks modern or biblical Hebrew and they will vouch for the mechanical translation. As you can see, Hebrew is very concise.

[Tzfat]

No, it literally means "sides of G-d." there is no Hebrew word for "face." Even if we translate "panyim" as "face" it is plural, so "faces."

When you say "literally" you must do a mechanical translation. So in the case it is "sides of G-d."