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On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)
Various | Various | Various

Posted on 07/06/2010 6:54:33 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

From Abandonment to Divine Providence

Letter XI.—Intemperate Zeal.

To the same person. On intemperate and indiscreet zeal.


I see, my dear Sister, that a mistaken zeal exposes you to dangers all the more serious because they are hidden under the most insidious appearances. Desire for the perfection of our neighbour is, doubtless, very good; the pain that is felt interiorly 202at the sight of his defects is good also, provided it proceeds from a pure desire for his perfection, But with all this there must needs be mingled much secret self-complacency, confidence in one’s own superior light, and severity towards one’s neighbour. Zeal such as this cannot, you must well understand, come from God; it is an illusion of the devil, hurtful to yourself and to others. However, the evil can be easily cured provided you are sincere enough, and submissive enough to recognise the gravity of it, and to apply the remedy. That which I am about to offer you has already produced a very happy result in a soul which was subject to the same illusion. Let us hope it will not be less efficacious in your case.

I advise you, therefore, and command you in the most sacred name of Jesus Christ, and that of His divine Mother, never more to think of practising the virtue of zeal as long as this prohibition is not expressly removed. I exculpate you before God absolutely, and I take upon myself the responsibility of all the ill consequences that may result from this prohibition. If you should get scruples about it, and the devil should put in your mind that you could do some good or avert some evil, say to God, “My God, although charity is the queen of virtues, I may not practise this zeal until You have made me able to do so without detriment to the charity I owe to others and to myself. When I am found to be sufficiently strong, or rather sufficiently humble, to exercise zeal without disturbing the peace of my soul, and with all possible sweetness, compassion, and thoughtfulness for my neighbour, and a helpfulness, kindness and charity which nothing can embitter, a charity which is scandalised at nothing but its own shortcomings; with all that patience and long-suffering which enables one tranquilly to endure the defects of others, and for as long as You will suffer them, Oh, my God; and when I am neither troubled, nor uneasy, nor astonished that others are incorrigible, then this prohibition will be removed, and I shall be able to think that I can glorify You in my neighbour. But until then, Oh, my God, I must exercise my zeal on myself, in the correction of my numerous defects.”

In fact, my very dear Sister, when humility has dug that deep foundation indispensable to every virtue, I shall be the first to urge you to resume the practice of zeal; until then think only of yourself. Remember that God, to punish those who have practised this indiscreet zeal, and to correct them, has often allowed them to fall into much graver faults than those which has scandalised them in others.

In the second place I command you never to speak of God, or of anything good, unless in a spirit of humility and meekness, in an amiable and gracious manner, with moderation and 203encouragement, and never with bitterness and severity, or in a way to wound and repel those who hear you, because, although you may only say what is in the Gospel and in the best books, I believe that in your present state of mind you might say it very badly and in such a way as only to do harm. Did not Satan make use of the words of Holy Scripture to tempt our Lord? Truth is the proper relation of things. It is changed when pushed to extremes, or wrongly applied. Your peevish temper is like a smoked glass, which, if you do not take care will prevent you seeing things in their true light, or showing them to others. Keep always on your guard against this fatal influence, and feed your mind on thoughts and feelings that are contrary to those inspired by temper. Entertain yourself and others with conversations on the infinite goodness of God, and on the confidence we ought to have in Him. Compel yourself to offer an example in your whole conduct, of a virtue that has no bounds, and which imposes no restraint on others. If you have nothing kind to say keep silent, and leave the care of deciding to others. They can avoid better than you too much laxness, and will be exact without being severe. If exactitude be praiseworthy, severity is blamable, it does nothing but revolt people instead of convincing them, and embitter their souls instead of gaining them. As much as true meekness, with the help of God, has power to repel evil and to win to good, so much has an excessive harshness power to make goodness difficult and evil incurable. The first is edifying, the latter, destructive.

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“Our Lord wants us to serve him with common sense, and the opposite is called indiscreet zeal.” Coste, Vol. 1, Letter 85. – St. Vincent de Paul To Saint Louise, 12 October 1631, p. 128.

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The Interior Castle, by St. Teresa of Avila:

CHAPTER II.

18. Do not trouble yourselves, my daughters, with cares which do not concern you. You must notice that the struggle with the demons continues through nearly all the mansions of this castle. True, in some of them, the guards, which, as I explained, are the powers of the soul, have strength for the combat, but we must be keenly on the watch against the devils's arts, lest he deceive us in the form of an angel of light. He creeps in gradually, in numberless ways, and does us much harm, though we do not discover it until too late.

19. As I said elsewhere, he works like a file, secretly and silently wearing its way: I will give you some examples to show how he begins his wiles. For instance: a nun has such a longing for penance as to feel no peace unless she is tormenting herself in some way. This is good in itself; but suppose that the Prioress has forbidden her to practise any mortifications without special leave, and the sister thinking that, in such a meritorious cause, she may venture to disobey, secretly leads such a life that she loses her health and cannot even fulfil the requirements of her rule--you see how this show of good ends. Another nun is very zealous about religious perfection; this is very right, but may cause her to think every small fault she sees in her sisters a serious crime, and to watch constantly whether they do anything wrong, that she may run to the Prioress to accuse them of it. At the same time, may be she never notices her own shortcomings because of her great zeal about other people's religious observance, while perhaps her sisters, not seeing her intention but only knowing of the watch she keeps on them, do not take her behaviour in good part.

20. The devil's chief aim here is to cool the charity and lessen the mutual affection of the nuns, which would injure them seriously. Be sure, my daughters, that true perfection consists in the love of God and our neighbour, and the better we keep both these commandments, the more perfect we shall be. The sole object of our Rule and Constitutions is to help us to observe these two laws.

21. Indiscreet zeal about others must not be indulged in; it may do us much harm; let each one look to herself. How ever, as I have spoken fully on this subject elsewhere, I will not enlarge on it here, and will only beg you to remember the necessity of this mutual affection. Our souls may lose their peace and even disturb other people's if we are always criticizing trivial actions which often are not real defects at all, but we construe them wrongly through ignorance of their motives. See how much it costs to attain perfection! Sometimes the devil tempts nuns in this way about the Prioress, which is still more dangerous. Great prudence is then required, for if she disobeys the Rule or Constitutions the matter must not always be overlooked, but should be mentioned to her; if, after this, she does not amend, the Superior of the Order should be informed of it. It is true charity to speak in this case, as it would be if we saw our sisters commit a grave fault; to keep silence for fear that speech would be a temptation against charity, would be that very temptation itself.

22. However, I must warn you seriously not to talk to each other about such things, lest the devil deceive you. He would gain greatly by your doing so, because it would lead to the habit of detraction; rather, as I said, state the matter to those whose duty it is to remedy it. Thank God our custom here of keeping almost perpetual silence gives little opportunity for such conversations, still, it is well to stand ever on our guard.

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The Spiritual Combat - by Father Dom Lorenzo Scupoli

CHAPTER XLII

How to resist the devil when he seeks to delude us by means of indiscreet zeal

When our cunning adversary perceives that we are walking right onward in the path of holiness with fervent yet well-regulated desires, being unable to draw us aside by open allurements, he transforms himself into an angel of light; and by suggestions of seeming friendship, sentences from Scripture, and examples of saints, importunately urges us to aspire indiscreetly to the height of perfection, that so he may cause us to fall headlong from thence. To this end he encourages us to chastise the body with great severity, by fasts, disciplines, hair-shirts, and other similar mortifications, that he may either tempt us to pride by the thought that we are doing great things, which is a temptation that especially besets women, or that we may fall sick, and so be disabled from the exercise of good works; or else that from pain and over-weariness we may take a disgust and abhorrence to spiritual exercises, and thus by degrees grow cold in the way of godliness, and at last give ourselves up with greater avidity than before to worldly pleasures and amusements. This has been the end of many, who, following presumptuously the impulse of an indiscreet zeal, have in their excessive outward austerities gone beyond the measure of their interior virtue; and so have perish ed in their own inventions, and become the sport of malicious fiends. This would not have befallen them had they well considered what we have been saying, and remembered that these acts of painful self-discipline, praiseworthy as they are and profitable to such as have corresponding strength of body and humility of spirit, must yet be proportioned to each man's state and condition.

And those who are unequal to labor with the saints in similar austerities, may find other opportunities of imitating their lives by strong and effectual desires and fervent prayers, aspiring after the most glorious crown of Christ's true soldier by despising the whole world and themselves also; by giving themselves up to solitude and silence; by meekness and humility towards all men; by patience under wrongs; by doing good to those most opposed to them; and by avoiding every fault, however trivial it may be; things far more acceptable to God than painful bodily exercises. With regard to these, I would have you to be rather discreetly sparing, in order to be able, if necessary, to increase them, than by certain excesses of zeal to run the risk of having to relinquish them altogether. I say this to you, being well assured you are not likely to fall into the error of those who, though they pass for spiritual, are enticed and deluded by deceitful nature into an over-anxious care for the preservation of their bodily health. So jealous are they, and fearful of the slightest thing which might affect it, that they live in constant doubt and fear of losing it. There is nothing of which they better love to think and speak than of the ordering of their lives in this respect. Hence they are ever solicitous to have food suited rather to their palate than their stoma ch, which is often weakened by over-delicacy. And though all this is done on the pretext of gaining strength the better to serve God, it is in fact but a vain attempt to conciliate two mortal enemies, the spirit and the flesh; an attempt which injures both instead of benefiting either; for this same over-carefulness impairs the health of the one and the devotion of the other.

A certain degree of freedom in our way of life is therefore safer and more profitable; accompanied, however, by the discretion of which I have spoken, having regard to different constitutions and states of life, which cannot all be brought under the same rule.

In the pursuit of interior holiness, as well as of exterior devotion, we should proceed with moderation, as has been shown before on the subject of the gradual acquisition of virtues.

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The Spiritual Guide, Which leads the Soul to the fruition of Internal Peace. The Second Book. by Miguel de Molinos

CHAP. III.

The Indiscreet Zeal of Souls, and the disordinate Love of our Neighbour, disturb internal Peace.

13. There is not a more acceptable Sacrifice to God (says St. Gregory, In Ezechiel,1 Hom.12) than the ardent Zeal of Soul: For that Ministry, the Eternal God sent his own Jesus Christ into the World, and ever since it hath been the most noble and sublime of Offices. But if the Zeal be indiscreet, it brings a notable obstacle to the progress of the Spirit.

14. No sooner does thou find in thy self any new and fervent light, but thou would’st lay thy self wholly out for the good of Souls; and in the mean time, its odds, but that that is self-love, which thou takest to be pure zeal. This uses sometime to put on a garb of a disordinate Desire, of a vain complacency, of an industrious affection and proper esteem; all Enemies to the peace of the Soul.

15. It is never good to love thy Neighbour to the detriment of thine own spiritual good. To please God in purity, ought to be the only scope of thy Works; this ought to be thy only desire and thought; endeavouring to moderate thy disordinate fervour; that tranquillity and internal peace may reign in thy Soul. The true zeal of Souls, which thou oughtest to strive for, should be the true love of thy God. That is the fruitful, efficacious, and true zeal, which doth wonders in Souls, though with dumb Voices.

16. St. Paul (I Tim. 4.) recommended to us first the care of our own Souls, before that of our Neighbour. Take heed unto thy self, and unto thy Doctrine, said he in his Canonical Epistle. Struggle not to over do, for when it is time convenient, and thou canst be any way useful to thy Neighbour; God will call thee forth, and put thee in the employment that will best suit with thee: That thought belongs only to him, and to thee, to continue in thy rest, disengaged, and wholly resigned up to the Divine will and pleasure. Don’t think that in that condition thou art idle: He is busied enough, who is always ready waiting to perform the Will of God. Who takes heed to himself for God’s sake, does every thing; because, one pure Act of internal Resignation, is more worth than a hundred thousand Exercises for ones own Will.

17. Though the Cistern be capable to contain much Water, yet it must still be without it, till Heaven favour it with Rain. Be at rest, blessed Soul be quiet, humble and resigned, to every thing that God shall be pleased to do with thee, leave the care to God, for he as a Loving Father, knows best what is convenient for thee; conform thy self totally to his Will, perfection being founded in that, inasmuch as he who doeth the will of the Lord, is (Mat. 12.) his Mothers Son, and Brother of the Son of God himself.

18. Think not that God esteemeth him most, that doeth most. He is most beloved who is most humble, most faithful and resigned, and most correspondent to his own Internal Inspiration, and to the Divine will and pleasure.

CHAP. IV.

A Sequel to the Same.

19. Let all thy desires be conform to the Will of that God, who can bring streams of Water out of the dry Rock, who is much displeased with those Souls, which in helping others before the time, defraud themselves, suffer ing themselves to be transported by indiscreet zeal, and vain complacency.

20. As it was with the Servant of Elisha, who (2Kings, c.4.) being sent by the Prophet, that with his Staff he might raise a dead Child; because of the complacency he had, it had not the effect, and he was reproved by Elisha. In like manner the Sacrifice of Cain was rejected, being the first that was offered to God in the World, through the vain-glory he had of being the first, and more than his own Father Adam, in offering Sacrifice to God.

21. In like manner the Disciples of our Lord Christ, were infected with that evil, feeling a vain joy, when they cast out Devils, and therefore were sharply reproved by their Heavenly Master. Before Paul Preached to the Gentiles the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, being already a chosen Vessel, a Citizen of Heaven, and chosen of God for that Ministry, it was necessary to try and humble him, shutting him up in close Prison; and wouldst thou become a Preacher without passing through the Tryal of Men and Devils? And couldst thou thrust thy self into so great a Ministry, and produce Fruit, without passing through the fiery tryal of temptation, tribulation, and passive purgation?

22. It concerns thee more to be quiet and resigned in a holy case, than to do many and great things, by thy own judgment and opinion; think not that the heroick Actions which great Saints have done, and do in the Church, are Works of their own Industry; for all things as well spiritual as temporal, to the shaking of the last Leaf, are by Divine Providence Decreed from all Eternity. He that does the Will of God, does all things; this thy Soul ought to endeavour, resting in a perfect Resignation to whatever the Lord is pleased to dispose of thee; acknowledg thy self unworthy of so high a Ministry, as the guiding of Souls to Heaven, and then thou’lt put no obstacle to the rest, internal peace, and heavenly flight of thy Soul.

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from The Art of Mental Prayer By Reverend Bede Frost

Impatience with others, which in beginners in the spiritual life often excites an indiscreet zeal for their reformation, is fraught with danger to the soul. The only way of reforming others is to begin with ourselves. 'For their sakes I sanctify myself.' Our impatient zeal is often no more than the product of self-love, which is hurt because others do not go our way or come up to our standard.

The Devil, says St. Theresa, works like a file, and one of his wiles is to turn our zeal for perfection into a watch upon others, with the result not only that we become blind to our own shortcomings, but vitiate and harm those who resent our behavior (The Interior Castle, M.I., chap ii, 20, 21).

It would seem almost impossible that we should be impatient with God, yet it is very common. We get tired of walking by faith; 'impatience for vision,' says Coventry Patmore, 'is one of the last faults to be cured'; we complain because our prayers are not answered to the minute, or that our finely woven schemes do not attain their purpose; we lapse into despondency because God acts so slowly, and seems so often to take little notice of our feverish activity, except to reveal its sterility.

No virtue is more necessary both to our interior life and to our exterior activity than patience, and we shall only gain it from much dwelling in the quietness of the 'God of Patience.' 'Rest in the Lord, wait patiently for Him.' 'For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at last it shall speak and not lie; though it tarry, wait for it.' Nature is all for seeing, doing, accomplishing, but 'My ways are not your ways' is one of the first necessary lessons of the spiritual life, and 'he that believeth shall not make haste'; 'they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.' Impatience is ever a shirking of the real thing, a get ting out of tune with the purposes of God, a missing of the beat, which all comes, as says Plotinus, 'from not looking at the Conductor in the midst and keeping time with Him,' for 'He shall keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Thee.'

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From SPIRITUAL MAXIMS by John Nicholas Grou S.J.

NINETEENTH MAXIM

DISCRETION

...And thus it is, too, with many men. They are active, bustling busybodies; meddling in everything under the pretext of serving God; fancying that the Church depends on them. They concern themselves with the affairs of others, and neglect their own. Even some priests are not entirely exempt from these and similar faults. They are zealous, but, as St. Paul says, not according to knowledge. [ ] They allow their natural activity full rein, and because their ministry is spread over many objects insinuate themselves into everything and imagine that all good works must pass through their hands, otherwise they will not succeed. They are for ever coming and going, and the day is not long enough for all they have to do. They even borrow from the night, and leave themselves barely time to say their office.

I am not saying this in a spirit of criticism: nothing is further from my wish. But how can I do otherwise than lament over such an evil as this, which is so harmful to the cause of religion? I am not calling into question the intention: that I well believe to be right and good. Nor do I blame the objects in view, which are also good, since they concern the worship of God and the welfare of men. But how can one rejoice to see the order of duty reversed, and works of supererogation take precedence over duties of obligation? Who can excuse that mistaken piety which looks merely to externals, counts the inner spirit as nothing, and neglects God's primary laws?

The spirit of the inner life follows quite another course, and inspires ideas the very opposite of what I have been describing. It teaches all who yield to its guidance that their first duty is the sanctification of their own souls, and that Christian sanctity consists primarily in the fulfilment of the du ties of one's state. These are indispensable. The very end of devotion is the obtaining of such graces as are necessary for their fulfilment, and it can never, therefore, be a reason for neglecting them. On the contrary, true piety allows such time only for prayer as can lawfully be spared from duties of obligation. In all religious exercises not of strict obligation, it bids us accommodate ourselves to the wishes and frailties of those whom we are bound to consider, and, for the sake of peace, to sacrifice our own tastes, be they never so pious.

The inward spirit also reminds us that we must only undertake good works such as are left to our discretion, in so far as they do not encroach on our spirit of recollection. Should they even begin to make inroads thereon and dissipate us ever so little, we must absolutely give them up, or put them off until another time when we shall not run the same risk. In all such circumstances, it is best not to act on our own but take sound advice before acting, or wait until God sends the occasion. We must also be on our guard against our natural activity and ardour, and all indiscreet zeal which would have us take on far more than we can manage, so that there remains no time for prayer, and for the duties of our state, which are always the first of all good works.

The true interior spirit also teaches those who are charged with the sacred ministry that the care of souls should be limited to spiritual matters, and only extended to temporal things when charity requires it of them, and then with much reserve and circumspection, lest these should prove harmful to themselves or lessen in the minds of others the reverence due to their sacred office.

Such has ever been the mind of the Church from earliest times. The apostles were the first to set an example in this matter by appointing deacons to see to the needs of the poor, reserving to themselves the duty of prayer and the ministry of the word. [ ] In whatever time remains over from the administration of the sacraments, from preaching, the direction of souls, visiting the sick and other similar duties, the primary duty of priests should be prayer, the reading of sacred books and other studies proper to their state. They ought to concern themselves in temporal affairs only in so far as they are a matter of conscience, by pointing out the rules which should be followed so as not to offend against justice or charity, and to maintain or re-establish unity and peace. In the matter of good works or works of mercy, they should, if possible, confine themselves to directing affairs, committing the carrying out of them to those well qualified to do so. Otherwise, apart from losing time, they will lay themselves open to complaints, murmurings, and sometimes unworthy suspicions. The closer they live in intimate union with God, the better will they serve the cause of religion and procure the salvation of souls, the greater authority and consideration will they possess, and their reputation will remain intact and their good name respected.

All this would be taught by the spirit of the interior life, if men sought its guidance with a pure intention. Thus it taught St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Francis of Sales, and every other saint and doctor of the Church throughout the ages, and those most zealous for the greater glory of God and the good of souls.

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I found these excerpts on the Rerum Novarum blog:

But if you have bitter zeal and there be contentions in your heart, glory not and be not liars against the truth: for this is not wisdom descending from above, but earthly, sensual, diabolical. (St. James, Cath. Ep., c. iii vv.14 and 15.)

For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God. (St. James, Cath. Ep., c. i., v. 20.)

1. Zeal for the salvation of souls is a sublime virtue, and yet how many errors and sins are committed daily in its name! Evil is never done more effectually and with greater security, says St. Francis de Sales, than when one does it believing he is working for the glory of God.

2. The saints themselves can be mistaken in this delicate matter. We see a proof of this in the incident related to the Apostles Saint James and Saint John; for Our Lord reprimanded them for asking Him to cause fire from heaven to fall upon the Samaritans. (Luke, IX., 54.)

3. Acts of zeal are like coins the stamp upon which is necessary to examine attentively, as there are more counterfeits than good ones. Zeal to be pure should be accompanied by great humility, for it is of all virtues the one which self-love most easily glides. When it does so, zeal is apt to become imprudent, presumptuous, unjust, bitter. Let us consider these characteristics in detail, viewing them, for the sake of greater clearness, in their practical bearings.

4. In every home there grows some thorn, something, in other words, that needs correction; for the best soil is seldom without its noxious weed. Imprudent zeal, by seeking awkwardly to pluck out the thorn, often succeeds only in plunging it farther in, thus rendering the wound deeper and more painful. In such a case it is essential to act with reflection and great prudence. There is a time to speak and a time to be silent, says the Holy Spirit. (Ecclesiastes III., 7.) Prudent zeal is silent when it realizes that to be so is less hurtful than to speak.

5. Some persons are even presumptuous enough in their mistaken zeal to meddle in the domestic affairs of strange families, blaming, counselling, attempting to reform without measure and discretion, thus causing an evil much greater than the one they wish to correct. Let us employ the activity of our zeal in our own reformation, says Saint Bernard, and pray humbly for that of others. It is great presumption on our part thus to assume the role of apostles when we are not as yet faithful disciples. Not that you should be be by any means indifferent to the salvation to souls: on the contrary you must wish it most ardently, but do not undertake to effect it except with great prudence, humility, and diffidence in self.

6. Again there are pious persons whose zeal consists in wis hing to make everyone adopt their particular practices of devotion. Such a one, if she have a special attraction for meditating on the Passion of our divine Lord or for visiting the Blessed Sacrament, would like to oblige every one, under pain of reprobation, to pass long hours prostrate before the crucifix or the tabernacle. Another who is especially devoted to visiting the poor and the sick and to the other works of corporeal mercy, acknowledges no piety apart from these excellent practices. Now, this is not an enlightened zeal. Martha and Mary were sisters, says Saint Augustine, but they have not a like office: one acts the other contemplates. If both had passed the day in contemplation, no one would have prepared a repast for their divine Master; if both had been employed in this material work, there would have been no one to listen to His words and garner up His divine lessons. The same may be said of other good works. In choosing among them each person should follow the inspirations of God's grace, and these are very varied. The eye that sees but hears not, must neither envy nor blame the ear that hears but sees not. Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum: let every spirit praise the Lord, says the royal prophet. (Ps. CL, 5.)

7. Bear well in mind that the zeal which would lead you to undertake works not in conformity with your position, however good and useful they may be in themselves, is always a false one. This is especially true if such cause us interior trouble or annoyance; for the holiest things are infallibly displeasing to God when they do not accord with the duties of our state in life.

8. Saint Paul condemned in strong terms those Christians who showed a too exclusive preference for their spiritual masters; some admitting as truth only what came from the mouth of Peter, others acknowledging none save Paul, and others again none but Apollo. What! said he to them, is not Jesus Christ the same for all of you! Is it then Paul who was crucified for you? Is it in his name that you were baptized? (St. Paul, i Cor. i., 13.) This culpable weakness is often reproduced in our day. Persons otherwise pious carry to excess the esteem and affection they have for their spiritual directors, exalt without measure their wisdom and holiness, and do not scruple to deprecate all others. God alone knows the true value of each human being, and we have not the scales of the sanctuary to weigh and compare the respective wisdom and sanctity of this or that person. If you have a good confessor, thank God and try to render his wisdom useful to you by your docility in allowing yourself to be guided; but do not assume that nobody else has as good a one. To deprecate the merits of some in order to exalt those of others at their expense is a sort of slander, that ought to be all the more feared because it is generally so little recognized. [Fr. R.P. Quadrupani: Light and Peace - Instructions for Devout Souls to Dispel Their Doubts and Allay Their Fears pgs. 153-158 (c. 1795)]

9. "If your zeal is bitter", says St. James, "it is not wisdom descending from on high, but earthly, sensual, diabolical". (James III, 14-15.) These words of an Apostle should furnish matter of reflection for those persons who, whilst making profession of piety, are so prone to irritability, so harsh and rude in their manner and language, that they might be taken for angels in church and for demons elsewhere.

10. The value and utility of zeal are in proportion to its tolerance and amiability. True zeal is the offspring of charity; it should then, resemble its mother and show itself like to her in all things. "Charity", says St. Paul, "is patient, is kind, is not ambitious, and seeks not her own." (1 Cor. XIII, 4-5.)

You should not only be devout and love devotion, but you ought to make your piety useful, agreeable, and charming to everybody. The sick will like your spirituality if they are lovingly consoled by it; your family, if they find that it makes you more thoughtful of their welfare, gentler in everyday affairs, more amiable in reproving, and so on; your husband, if he sees that in proportion as your devotion increases you become more cordial and tender in your affection for him; your relations and your friends, if they find you more forebearing and ready to comply with their wishes, should these not be contrary to God's will. Briefly, you must try as far as possible to make your devotion attractive to others; that is true zeal". - St. Francis de Sales.

11. Never allow your zeal to make you overeager to correct others, says the same Saint; and when you do it remember that the most important thing to consider is the choice of the moment. A caution deferred can be given another time: one given inopportunely is not only fruitless, but moreover paralyzes beforehand all the good that might have have subsequently been done.

12. Be zealous therefore, ardently zealous for the salvation of your neighbour, and to further make use of whatever means God has placed in your power; but do not exceed these limits nor disquiet yourself about the good you are unable to do, for God can accomplish it through others. In conclusion, zeal according to the teaching of the Fathers of the Church, should always have truth for its foundation, indulgence for its companion, mildness for its guide, prudence for its counsellor and director.

"I must look upon whatever presents itself each day to be done, in order that Divine Providence, as the work God wishes me to do, and apply myself in a manner worthy of Him, that is, with exactness and tranquillity. I shall neglect nothing, be anxious about nothing; as it is dangerous to do God's work negligently or to appropriate it to one's self through self-love and false zeal. When our actions are prompted by our inclinations,we do them badly and are pretentious, restless, and anxious to succeed. The glory of God is the pretext that hides the illusion. Self-love disguised as zeal grieves and frets if it cannot succeed. Oh my God! give me the grace to be faithful in action, indifferent to success. My part is to will what Thou willest and to keep myself recollected in Thee amidst all my occupations: Thine is to give to my feeble efforts such fruit as shall please Thee - none if Thou so wishest." - Fenelon. [Fr. R. P. Quadrupini: excerpts from his spiritual instruction "Light and Peace - Instructions for Devout Souls" pgs. 158-161 (c. 1795)]

Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled by many things. (St. Luke, c. x, v. 41.) Always active, always at rest. (St. Augustine.) Be on your guard lest your zeal degenerate into anxiety and eagerness. St. Francis de Sal es was a most pronounced enemy of these two defects. They cause us to lose sight of God in our actions and make us very prone to impatience if the slightest obstacle should interfere with our designs. It is only by acting peacefully that we can serve the God of peace in an acceptable manner.

"Do not suffer our peace to be disturbed by precipitation in our exterior actions. When our bodies or our minds are engaged in any work, we should perform it peacefully and with composure, not prescribing for ourselves a definite time to finish it, nor being too anxious to see it completed." - Scrupoli

Martha was engaged in a good work when she prepared a respite for our divine Lord, nevertheless He reproved her because she performed it with anxiety and agitation. This goes to show, says St. Francis de Sales, that it is not enough to do good, the good must moreover be done well, that is to say, with love and tranquility. If one turns the spinning-wheel too rapidly it falls and the thread breaks.

Whenever we are doing well we are always doing enough and doing it sufficiently fast. Those persons who are restless and impetuous do not accomplish any more and what they do is done badly.

St. Francis de Sales was never seen in a hurry no matter how varied or numerous might be the demands on his time. When on a certain occasion some surprise was expressed at this he said: "You ask me how it is that although others are agitated and flurried I am not likewise uneasy and in haste. What would you? I was not put in this world to cause fresh disturbance: is there not enough of it already without my adding to it by my exciteability?"

However, do not on the other hand succumb to sloth and indifference. All extremes are to be avoided. Cultivate a tranquil activity and an active tranquillity.

In order to acquire tranquillity in action it is necessary to consider carefully what we are able to accomplish and never to undertake more then that. It is self-love, ever more anxious to do much than is to do well, which urges us on to burden ourselves with great undertakings and to impose upon ourselves numerous obligations. It maintains and nourishes itself on this tension of mind, this restless anxiety which it takes for infallible signs of a superior capacity. Thus St. Francis de Sales was wont to say: "Our self-love is a great braggart, that wishes to undertake everything and accomplishes nothing".

"It appears to me that you are over eager and anxious in the pursuit of perfection...Now I tell you truthfully, as it is said in the Book of Kings [III Kings, C. XIX], that God is not in the great and strong wind, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire, but in the gentle movement of an almost imperceptable breeze.....Anxiety and agitation contribute nothing towards success. The desire of success is good, but only if it be accompanied by solicitude. I expressly forbid you to give way to inquietude, for it is the mother of all imperfections.....Peace is necessary in all things and everywhere. If any trouble come to us, either of an interior or exterior nature, we should receive it peacefully: if joy be ours, it should be received peacefully: have we to flee from evil, we should do it peacefully, otherwise we may fall in our flight and thus give our enemy a chance to kill us. Is there a good work to be done? We must do it peacefully, or else we shall commit many faults by our hastiness: and even regards penance, - that too must be done peacefully: Behold, said the prophet, in peace is my bitterness most bitter. (Isaiah.) [Fr. R.P. Quadrupani: Light and Peace - Instructions for Devout Souls to Dispel Their Doubts and Allay Their Fears pgs. 112-115 (c. 1795)]

_____

"How often we wish that God would show himself stronger, that he would strike decisively, defeating evil and creating a better world. All ideologies of power justify themselves in exa ctly this way, they justify the destruction of whatever would stand in the way of progress and the liberation of humanity.

We suffer on account of God’s patience. And yet,we need his patience.

God, who became a lamb, tells us that the world is saved by the Crucified One, not by those who crucified him. The world is redeemed by the patience of God. It is destroyed by the impatience of man."

--From the Homily of the Inauguration Mass of Pope Benedict XVI, 24 April 2005.

_____

True zeal consists in doing the duties of our state in life:

Providence, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange summarizes Self-Abandonment To Providence (emphasis added):

Why we should abandon ourselves to divine providence

The answer of every Christian will be that the reason lies in the wisdom and goodness of Providence. This is very true; nevertheless, if we are to have a proper understanding of the subject, if we are to avoid the error of the Quietists in renouncing more or less the virtue of hope and the struggle necessary for salvation, if we are to avoid also the other extreme of disquiet, precipitation, and a feverish, fruitless agitation, it is expedient for us to lay down four principles already somewhat accessible to natural reason and clearly set forth in revelation as found in Scripture. These principles underlying the true doctrine of self-abandonment, also bring out the motive inspiring it.

...

These first three principle s may therefore be summed up in this way: Nothing comes to pass but God has foreseen it, willed it or at least permitted it. He wills nothing, permits nothing, unless for the manifestation of His goodness and infinite perfections, for the glory of His Son, and the welfare of those that love Him. In view of these three principles, it is evident that our trust in Providence cannot be too childlike, too steadfast. Indeed, we may go further and say that this trust in Providence should be blind as is our faith, the object of which is those mysteries that are non-evident and unseen (fides est de non visis) for we are certain beforehand that Providence is directing all things infallibly to a good purpose, and we are more convinced of the rectitude of His designs than we are of the best of our own intentions. Therefore, in abandoning ourselves to God, all we have to fear is that our submission will not be wholehearted enough. [54]

In view of Quietism, however, this last sentence obliges us to lay down a fourth principle no less certain than the principles that have preceded. The principle is, that obviously self-abandonment does not dispense us from doing everything in our power to fulfil God's will as made known in the commandments and counsels, and in the events of life; but so long as we have the sincere desire to carry out His will thus made known from day to day, we can and indeed we must abandon ourselves for the rest to the divine will of good pleasure, no matter how mysterious it may be, and thus avoid a useless disquiet and mere agitation. [55]

...All theologians explain what is meant by the divine will as expressed: expressed, that is, in the commandments, in the spirit underlying the counsels, and in the events of life. [56] They add that, while conforming ourselves to His expressed will, [57] we must abandon ourselves to His divine will of good pleasure, however mysterious it may be, for we are certain beforehand that in its holiness it wills nothing, permits nothing, unless for a good purpose.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: catholic; inman; mormon; protestant; religion
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To: reaganaut
I minister to the LDS, those are the fish I fry. Most of my friends are of various denoms (even the flying inmans here) and we all consider ourselves brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our differing denominations.

We are held together by the cross of Christ ..Not by laws or traditions .. John 1 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is Christ that has made us brothers and sisters ..

351 posted on 07/06/2010 2:11:55 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: small voice in the wilderness; RnMomof7
I think Saint Paul says that he went to great lengths to make himself 'hearable' to those to whom he preached.

It may be, indeed it certainly is, that if we preach the Gospel we will meet with quite astonishing negative reactions. But that does not excuse being offensive either deliberately or carelessly. And to consider all negative responses as indications that one is speaking the truth is logically ridiculous and spiritually perilous.

Since a major issue in the Corinthian Church was division as people went off after different teachers, all or many of whom attracted adherents by claiming authority based on wisdom and/or charisms, one might reasonably view I Cor 13 as a reminder that if the claimed gifts or abilities result in division, one ought at least to check to see if the supreme charism and virtue might need a little more cultivation.

I was thinking the other day of two Christians.
-- One spent his life thinking great thoughts and making great arguments. But he never shared his thinking with anyone.
--The other spent his time proclaiming the Gospel, but with such venom and glee at the discomfiture of others that soon no one listened any more.

In my mind, the second is worse, because he drove people away from the saving truth, while at least the first one had no effect on others. But neither did a whole lot in the making disciples of all nations business.

352 posted on 07/06/2010 2:12:09 PM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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To: r9etb
I am not applying anything. It's YOUR teachings of the Catholic Church that states she alone hold the keys of the kingdom and has the power to retain or remit sins. It's the Gospel of the Kingdom that YOUR Church believes and teaches.

Are you denying this? Because I don't understand your point if you are confused on which Gospel your Church believes.

353 posted on 07/06/2010 2:12:18 PM PDT by small voice in the wilderness (Defending the Indefensible. The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: Osage Orange

I was called a “racist” on an Apple thread a few days ago. :)


354 posted on 07/06/2010 2:14:05 PM PDT by BunnySlippers (I LOVE BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Look around what passes for Christendom these days, and you’ll find numerous contradictory answers to that question. How is a third party to distinguish one from another, to find the “correct” message of the Bible in the competing fray of contradictions?

- - - - - - -
No, there isn’t. There are relatively FEW passage that Christians disagree on. The vast majority of disagreement is among the pseudo-Christian groups (like the Restorationists) who take verses out of context to support unbiblical doctrines.

Context determines what a passage means and is how one finds out the ‘correct’ interpretation of MOST verse. Also, the creeds are good guidlines of doctrine. If it isn’t creedal then a red flag should go up and most Christian groups agree with the creeds.


355 posted on 07/06/2010 2:15:18 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Godzilla

It is WONDERFUL !!!


356 posted on 07/06/2010 2:17:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Godzilla

Boardwalk fries in NJ or Delaware give you the option of mayo or malt vinegar.

Of course you could behave like a tourist heathen and ask for ketchup/catsup or whatever that stuff is.

I rarely, if ever, eat fries with ketchup anymore after eating them with malt vinegar. I just salt mine now.

Man....I miss ‘em.


357 posted on 07/06/2010 2:19:08 PM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: reaganaut; RnMomof7
1) You left out a whole lot more than "In John 6" ... you left out the part where I acknowledge that Jesus did indeed take on an ascerbic tone sometimes. As I said, that changes the meaning ... even if you had no intent to do so. Remember that one of my earlier points of discussion was the matter of misrepresenting or distorting other folks beliefs. Such misrepresentation or distortion may be unintentional, but it's still a problem to be avoided.

2) "It does appear that you are trying to bait me into saying something ‘anti-Catholic’". My apologies; I'm not trying to bait anyone. I'm trying to make a few points, as follows:

a) Offensiveness does not imply correctness.

b) Correctness does not imply offensiveness.

c) Offensiveness of manner and offensiveness of message are not the same thing.

d) Misrepresenting other folks' beliefs does not enhance the credibility of one's own beliefs.

e) Folks should examine their own consciences before examining others'.

358 posted on 07/06/2010 2:19:57 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Mad Dawg
I never heard it that way around. I have only heard, “From your lips to God’s ears,” meaning, of course, “May God hear and grant your prayer.”

And that is the only way that I have ever heard, as well. I suppose though, that there are many who would have us believe that every word that they say are God's words and we had better pay appropriate attention!!! That reminds me of a certain poster that came on like an OT prophet (didn't he also assume an OT prophet's screen name?).

359 posted on 07/06/2010 2:19:57 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: small voice in the wilderness
It's the Gospel of the Kingdom that YOUR Church believes and teaches. Are you denying this? Because I don't understand your point if you are confused on which Gospel your Church believes.

Let me answer this way: I'm not a Catholic.

A bit of initial humility on your part might have spared you the humiliation of such a loudly proclaimed bit of presumptuousness.

And as to your assertions about what the Catholic Church teaches.... I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that, too.

360 posted on 07/06/2010 2:21:48 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: RnMomof7
In WNY or southern Ont ,,it is malt vinegar and maybe ketchup too..but definitely the vinegar

And it must be deep fried in lard, not some eunuch oil food product created in a lab and pumped through an oil pipeline.

361 posted on 07/06/2010 2:22:42 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: small voice in the wilderness
Have you read "Dominus Iesus?" I don't suggest it with the expectation that you would be persuaded, but it might be useful in understanding the details of our claim to be 'the Church'.

On another thread I put up a little passage from St. Augustine which might also help nuance the understanding of the claim.

362 posted on 07/06/2010 2:23:11 PM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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To: RnMomof7

We need to get some chili cheese fries in ya!


363 posted on 07/06/2010 2:23:24 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: SZonian
Man....I miss ‘em.

Fries or malt vinegar?

364 posted on 07/06/2010 2:24:44 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: ArrogantBustard; r9etb; reaganaut
I believe that NONE of us here on this forum is gifted to infallibly interpret Scripture or inerrantly determine doctrine ... and that therefore we should all bring humility to the table when we come to discuss or debate.

Agree, NO ONE can infallibly interpret scripture.. but we can use the gifts God has given us to compare scripture with scripture to draw out the meanings ..

I heard Mother Angela say that none of us can understand scripture until we die.. How sad ... God left a witness of Himself.. He left the outline for His new church, He left prophecy to assure us of His continual presence and this woman is waiting til she dies to understand it. God did not inspire the word of God to be a puzzle, He left it so that we can know Him and draw into a closer relationship with Him

We may not fully understand some things.. BUT the scriptures are clear to one that studies and prays and meditates on Gods word..

The inability to have complete understanding is not an excuse not to trust the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and pick up our Bibles and read

365 posted on 07/06/2010 2:26:48 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: r9etb

If you study carefully the various ‘schisms’ in Christianity, most are matters of governance or minor doctrines not major ones.

I think they can be ‘of God’. God gives us different ways of worshiping Him, differences in worship styles, and focii, but MOST Christian churches agree on the major points of doctrine, the important things like Salvation by Grace not works, Christ’s payment for sins on the Cross, the Virgin Birth, Sinless life of Christ. Most other things are relatively minor (like governance).

And to repeat, I do NOT like church fights over minor doctrinal differences, I think those can be about pride and cause division in the Body of Christ.

However, I also do not tolerate groups that don’t agree on the biggies (like those above) such as Mormons to CLAIM to be Christians while believing in a VERY different Christ. That is where I draw the line.


366 posted on 07/06/2010 2:31:39 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
No, there isn’t [a competing fray of contradictions].

Sigh.

Baptism. Eucharist. Marriage. Leadership. Worship. Structure (if any) of the Church. What is "Grace"? Who is "Saved"? How do we know? What is the relationship (if any) between "Faith" and "Works"? What is Heaven? Hell? Who shall be judged, and on what basis?

Yeah, most of us can recite the Apostles' Creed, or the Nicene Creed, and all mean pretty much the same thing by it.

Bully for us.

We still find all too much to disagree about, and generate all too much heat (and all too little light) doing it.

367 posted on 07/06/2010 2:31:44 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: r9etb; small voice in the wilderness

. I tend to lose track of all the trendy little epithets folks come up with to dehumanize those with whom they disagree.

- - - - - -
I started to keep track once of all the names i had been called and insults hurled at me without cause by certain posters here on FR.

The file got too large to handle in a few weeks.


368 posted on 07/06/2010 2:36:47 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Hey!


369 posted on 07/06/2010 2:37:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mad Dawg; small voice in the wilderness
Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. Dawg, we are all imperfect "cracked" vessels ...but it is not the vessel that saves..it is what drips out

The Gospel,even in-artfully delivered or even harshly delivered will still save..because it is the gospel that saved when empowered by the Holy Spirit

I think of John Edwards "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" ..hard hitting , hard to hear ..yet it led to the great revival.. people were offended.. yet many were saved.

There is a basic theological difference in the way we view this.. I do not think man can hinder a work of God..and I believe that it is the Spirit of God that draws..not MY outstanding ..cheerful personality ..(that is a LOL)

370 posted on 07/06/2010 2:38:53 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Larry Lucido
So the heathen or heretic you shun today may in fact be one of the elect.

True; but what about this statement is considered CALVINistic?

371 posted on 07/06/2010 2:39:00 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian

I have never seen them with Mayo


372 posted on 07/06/2010 2:40:49 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: r9etb
And as to your assertions about what the Catholic Church teaches.... I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that, too.

Perhaps Catholics can enlighten you. About what they teach.

I should feel humilated because I thought you were Catholic? oh, o.k. I'm sorry I thought you were Catholic. Better?

373 posted on 07/06/2010 2:41:05 PM PDT by small voice in the wilderness (Defending the Indefensible. The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: r9etb
Hint: I wasn't talking about Mormons. I was talking about people who call themselves Christians...

Well??

That's EXACTLY what MORMONs do!

374 posted on 07/06/2010 2:41:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: r9etb; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Context. And the Bible IS CLEAR on the Majors. It is only the minor things (which is why they are minor) that it is unclear on.

I find it interesting you use similar arguments to the LDS (denigration of the Bible, number of Protestant denominations, YPIOS). Why is that?


375 posted on 07/06/2010 2:41:28 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Godzilla

Now I do like chili or gravy on my fries as well.. just was giving the norm up here..


376 posted on 07/06/2010 2:42:59 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; r9etb; reaganaut
Agree, NO ONE can infallibly interpret scripture.. but we can use the gifts God has given us to compare scripture with scripture to draw out the meanings ..

OK ... for the sake of discussion, we'll leave out the Pope ... he's not on this forum anyway. Benny?? Dat you??? So, while we may be able to draw out meanings ... none of us can be absolutely certain that our meaning that we think we've drawn out is correct.

I heard Mother Angela say that none of us can understand scripture until we die

Since, as you agree, none of us on this forum can infallibly interpret Scripture, it follows that none of us will truly understand it in this life. Yes, that's sad ... it's a direct and inescapable result of The Fall.

We may not fully understand some things.. BUT the scriptures are clear to one that studies and prays and meditates on Gods word..

That appears to be a contradiction. Given that we will not fully understand some things in Scripture, and that none of us interpret infallibly, to say that the Sciptures are clear to anyone is absurd. I believe that, for the one who studies and prays, Scripture at times can seem very clear (But never perfectly so. Beware.), and at times very far from clear.

The inability to have complete understanding is not an excuse not to trust the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and pick up our Bibles and read

It's also not an excuse to reject the visible, universal Church which God gave us.

377 posted on 07/06/2010 2:43:26 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TigersEye

I gave up lentils for Lent.

- - — - -
ROFL!!!

I can’t do ‘Vegan’ at all. But I do like Indian cooking.


378 posted on 07/06/2010 2:45:02 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
There is certainly a place for polemics in Christian apologetics...On the other hand, when polemics are used as a club, they serve the purpose of doing violence, not charity.

Dr. Brian, the heart of your citation closest to dealing with what you said (I believe) was vv. 18-20, 26:

James 1: 18 For of his own will hath he begotten us by the word of truth, that we might be some beginning of his creatures. 19 You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger. 20 For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God...

These verses clearly outline acting in anger (a key motivation you didn't mention). I think you & I would agree that some people's skin is thinner than others; but what might be deemed a "club" to one is not so to another.

James 1: 26 And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

I agree with this.

379 posted on 07/06/2010 2:48:18 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: reaganaut
For example, as a former Mormon, I am keenly aware of LDS beliefs/history/practices and I do know them better than most members (and did when I was LDS), furthermore I am aware (and was guilty of when I was LDS) of their practice of ‘lying for the Lord’ where omission obfuscation and outright lying is considered ok as long as it protects the Mormon church.

You seem to be saying that any Mormon who disagrees with you is either (1) less well informed than you are about Mormonism, or (2) lying about Mormonism. Is that what you meant to suggest?

380 posted on 07/06/2010 2:49:02 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Mad Dawg
Mad Dawg, you are an honest broker, I believe. You know I have a great respect for you.

we are told to put on the whole armour of God. You don't go to a tea-party with armour on. This is a spiritual battle going on, you know this. There is a time to be quiet and listen. And there is a time to stand strong with truth and the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God.

381 posted on 07/06/2010 2:50:12 PM PDT by small voice in the wilderness (Defending the Indefensible. The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: RnMomof7

I think that is an incorrect way of putting it.

Did Paul waste his time trying to be all things to all people in order that he might save some?


382 posted on 07/06/2010 2:50:38 PM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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To: Godzilla

The Boardwalk fries with malt vinegar on ‘em.

So to answer your question, both.


383 posted on 07/06/2010 2:54:12 PM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: Logophile; reaganaut
Mormon who disagrees with you is either (1) less well informed than you are about Mormonism, or (2) lying about Mormonism.

Nice summary.

384 posted on 07/06/2010 2:54:30 PM PDT by svcw (True freedom cannot be granted by any man or government, only by Christ.)
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To: Colofornian
"And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger. 20 For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God..."

These verses clearly outline acting in anger (a key motivation you didn't mention).

Yes, I was going to highlight verses 19 and 20, but decided against it.

I have had those two verses printed out in large bold print and hung on the wall in my office over my computer for several years now. Those two verses are what lead me to research the whole topic of indiscreet zeal.

385 posted on 07/06/2010 2:54:46 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: RnMomof7

Amen. There are real dangers of wolves in sheep’s clothing and the petty divisions I am seeing on this thread are angering. We have bigger fish to fry (the wolves).


386 posted on 07/06/2010 2:56:03 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: small voice in the wilderness; Mad Dawg
And who is the enemy?

Is it the Awful Anglicans? The Beastly Baptists? The Crummy Catholics? The Evil Evangelicals? The Messy Methodists? The No-good Nondenominationals? The Putrid Presbyterians? The Rotten Reformed?

Or is The Enemy elsewhere? Is, perhaps, The Enemy even the author of the many divisions in the Body of Christ?

387 posted on 07/06/2010 2:56:52 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: RnMomof7
I disagree with your comments on several counts.

I heard Mother Angela say that none of us can understand scripture until we die..

I suspect you misrepresent what Mother Angela actually said, or at least meant. I doubt she was suggesting that it is impossible for humans to understand Scripture until they die; rather, I think you and she probably agree on such matters as the use of the gifts of God to discern the meaning of Scripture; even if not fully, at least with increased understanding over time.

BUT the scriptures are clear to one that studies and prays and meditates on Gods word.

The evidence does not support this assertion. There are a lot of folks who disagree on various passages, despite the fact that their differing views on Scripture were formed honestly, through study, prayer, and meditation on God's word. As an example, even such Protestant giants as Luther and Calvin strongly disagreed on the matter of the Real Presence in the Lord's Supper.

In any case, your assertion that Scripture is "clear" to those who study and pray, is directly at odds with your statement that "NO ONE can infallibly interpret scripture."

The inability to have complete understanding is not an excuse not to trust the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and pick up our Bibles and read

But by the same token, that same inability to have complete understanding brings to light the danger of trying to define on an individual basis what constitutes Christian truth. It is simply not adequate for each of us to pick up our Bibles and come up with our own answers, hoping for the best.

There still needs to be a way to resolve the disputes that inevitably arise; and as to that, ArrogantBustard put it so much better than I could.....

388 posted on 07/06/2010 2:58:15 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Elsie
That's EXACTLY what MORMONs do!

But I'm not talking about Mormons. I'm talking about people like you.

389 posted on 07/06/2010 2:59:12 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Logophile

I am saying I have seen both on here and elsewhere.


390 posted on 07/06/2010 2:59:24 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: RnMomof7

It was a local (Delaware) thing that I was “educated” on. It may have been that person’s preference. They weren’t bad, but not my preference. The Old Bay seasoning probably helped a bit.


391 posted on 07/06/2010 3:01:08 PM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: ArrogantBustard

My point was that Jesus was ‘offensive’ at times. And with good reason. There is no point in softening the truth to the point of it being ineffective.

As to the rest of your post, I agree. That in no way changes the fact that when you speak the truth, even in love, someone WILL be offended, if for not other reason then they don’t like what you are saying. I see it all the time on these threads and in witnessing to people on the the streets. Most people want to be ‘left alone’ and the Gospel of Christ can be VERY uncomfortable.


392 posted on 07/06/2010 3:04:13 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: All
I must go away, for a while ... But I'm amazed at how this thread has turned out. Far better than I had feared ...

May God grant that ALL religious discussion on this forum, even (perhaps especially) in "Open" thread ... be likewise marked by a spirit of honesty, integrity, faith, hope, and charity.

393 posted on 07/06/2010 3:04:21 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: reaganaut

And the number of LDS denominations is 125 and counting .....


394 posted on 07/06/2010 3:04:40 PM PDT by SkyDancer (A Kangaroo Is Loose In The Top Paddock)
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To: small voice in the wilderness
Perhaps Catholics can enlighten you. About what they teach.

LOL! Cop out!

I should feel humilated because I thought you were Catholic? oh, o.k. I'm sorry I thought you were Catholic. Better?

There's no point in my trying to penetrate your armor of self-righteousness in a vain attempt to point out the details of your humiliation. Perhaps God can do it.

395 posted on 07/06/2010 3:07:07 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Flightdeck
Statements such as "Your flesh will burn in hell for eternity unless you take Jesus as your savior now and vow that every word written in the King James bible is sacrosanct dogma directly from God."

Who said that? You put it in quotes. You have a link?

396 posted on 07/06/2010 3:07:38 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Again, my fight is NOT with other members of the Body of Christ (and I do consider Catholics to be Christians).

My fight is with the pseudo-Christian groups claiming to be Christians, specifically the one I used to be a member of.

Most of what you listed I do not consider ‘salvific’ (make or break) doctrines, nor do most Christians I know.


397 posted on 07/06/2010 3:08:08 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

I can barely do vegetables at all. I really need to work on it. They do have some good qualities. When it comes to cuisine I like New Mexican-style Mexican food most of all. It requires lettuce, tomatoes, onions and chile peppers which forces me to admit that veggies aren’t all bad.


398 posted on 07/06/2010 3:08:08 PM PDT by TigersEye (Greenhouse Theory is false. Totally debunked. "GH gases" is a non-sequitur.)
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To: small voice in the wilderness

Not according to Catholics.


399 posted on 07/06/2010 3:08:31 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RnMomof7
Now I do like chili or gravy on my fries as well.. just was giving the norm up here..

Phew. . . . there's hope for you yet :)

400 posted on 07/06/2010 3:08:59 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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