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The Nicene Creed: Ancient Symbol of the Catholic Faith [Ecumenical]
Ancient-Future.net ^ | not given | David Bennett

Posted on 07/22/2010 9:04:57 PM PDT by Salvation

The Nicene Creed: Ancient Symbol of the Catholic Faith

By David Bennett

The Nicene Creed is the symbol of belief for Christians in all regions and most denominations. The Nicene Creed is also called the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, because the complete present form of the creed was defined by bishops at the Councils of Nicaea (AD 325) and Constantinople (AD 381). Catholics, Orthodox, and many Protestants accept the ancient Nicene creed. The Nicene creed was written in AD 325 and completed in its present form in AD 381. Over 300 Church leaders from all over the world gathered to write the creed, in response to a heresy called Arianism that denied Jesus was fully God. The Nicene Creed ultimately explains the Church's beliefs about the Trinity, but it also affirms historical realities of Jesus' life. Even though the creed does not directly quote Scripture, it is based on biblical concepts and truths. We have broken the creed down line by line with explanations. This article uses the current official English translation of the Nicene Creed, from the U.S. Catholic Mass. See Appendix below for the revised translation of the Nicene Creed that will soon be used officially in English-speaking countries.

We Believe in One God

Christians, like Jews and Muslims, believe that only one God exists. The creed states the assumption of the ancient Shema: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. The current English translation of the creed begins with "we" believe, while the Greek, Latin, and upcoming English translation begin with "I" believe. The latter is more accurate, because reciting the creed is ultimately an individual confession of belief, although the creed also expresses the collective beliefs of the Church.

The Father, The Almighty

Jesus frequently calls God "Father" in the Scriptures, and this usage tells us that God is a loving God active within His creation. God the Father is the first person (Greek hypostasis, "individual reality"), or distinction, within the Godhead. The Father is the "origin" or "source" of the Trinity. As such, God the Father is often called "God Unbegotten" in early Christian thought.

Maker of Heaven and Earth, of All That is Seen and Unseen

Catholics believe that God created the visible and invisible elements of the cosmos. Thus, God created everything. Some early sects, the Gnostics and Marcionites, believed that God the Father created the spirit world, but that an "evil" god (called the demiurge) created the similarly evil material world. The creed dispels such a notion.

We Believe in One Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is the Lord of all. The title Lord means that Jesus is master of all, and has connotations of deity, since the Hebrew word adonai and Greek word kyrios (both meaning Lord) were applied to Yahweh in the Old Testament. However, unlike earthly rulers, Jesus is a friend to the oppressed and a servant.

The Only Son of God

Jesus is in a unique relationship with God the Father. While Hebrew kings were sons of God symbolically (see Psalm 2), Jesus is the only Son of God by nature.

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Eternally Begotten of the Father

Begotten has the meaning of born, generated, or produced. God the Son is born out of the essence of God the Father. Just as a child shares the same humanness as his or her parents, the Son shares the essential nature of God with the Father. Since God is eternal, the Son, being begotten of God, is also eternal. The Son is often called the Only-Begotten God in early Christian literature, including in John 1:18 in many manuscripts.

God from God, Light from Light

God the Son exists in relation to God the Father. The Son is not the Father, but they both are God. Just as a torch is lit one to another, the Father and Son are distinct, but both light. Some Christians, called Sabellians or Modalists, said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were one God who changes roles. So when God creates, he is Father, while on earth, he is Son, and so forth. However, the Scriptures have all three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, interacting at the same time, as shown at Jesus' baptism. The language of Scripture also suggests that the Father and Son are somehow two as well as one. In John's gospel, the Father and Son testify as two witnesses, not one (John 8:17-18). Related to this, St. Athanasius, writing during the Nicene era, reportedly said that the Father and Son are one as "the sight of two eyes is one." Another illustration is the musical chord. Think of a C-chord. The C, E, and G notes are all distinct notes, but joined together as one chord, the sound is richer and more dynamic than had the notes been played individually. The chords are all equally important in producing the full, dynamic, sound of the chord, but the sound is lacking and thin if one of the notes is left out.

True God from True God

God the Son is not a half-god or inferior to God the Father. God the Son is fully and utterly God, distinct from the Father, yet not divided from the Father. The ancient Arians believed that Jesus could be called god but not true God. In other words, they believed the Logos (the "Word," a popular title for Jesus in early Christian literature) was the first creation of God, necessary to mediate between the unknowable distant God (a concept borrowed from Platonic thought) and creation. Because God knew that the Logos would be perfect, the title god could be bestowed upon the Son "by participation," but "true God" was a title reserved only for the unknowable Father. This is the Ante-Nicene "Logos Theology" of St. Justin and Athenagoras taken to an unintended extreme.

Begotten, Not Made

Some Christians today (Jehovah's Witnesses) and in the past (Arians) have suggested that God created Jesus like God would an angel. The creed tells us that just as when a woman gives birth she does not create a child out of nothing, being begotten of God, the Son is not created out of nothing. Since the Son's birth from the Father occurred before time was created, begotten refers to a permanent relationship as opposed to an event within time.

One in Being (homoousia) with the Father

God the Father and God the Son are equally divine, united in substance and will. Father and Son share the same substance or essence of divinity. That is, the Father and Son both share the qualities and essential nature that make one in reality God. However, sharing the same substance does not mean they share identity of person. While certainly an inadequate example, think of three humans: they share a common nature, the essential qualities and essence of humanity, but are not the same person (although unlike the persons of the Trinity, humans do not share one will).

Through Him All Things Were Made

The Bible tells us that through The Son, as Word of God, all things have been created. As Logos, the Son is the agent and artificer of creation.

For Us Men and for Our Salvation, He Came Down from Heaven

Jesus came from heaven, from a numinous reality other than our own. While the creed says "down," it is important to remember that our language is limited by time and spatiality. Heaven is not "up," just as God is not a biologically male father. However, due to the limits of language, we are forced to describe heaven symbolically and spatially.

By the Power of the Holy Spirit, He was Born of the Virgin Mary and Became Man

God the Son became incarnate in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He was born of a virgin through the Holy Spirit. God truly became human in Jesus Christ. Catholics believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is a real human being, not simply a spirit or ghost. The incarnation of God in Christ is the ultimate act of love, because rather than sending an angel or good human to accomplish the redemption and restoration of creation, God Himself became human. Some religious groups denied that Jesus was born of a virgin, such as the Jewish-influenced Ebionites. The virgin birth seems to be the first doctrine many modern day skeptics reject. Even today, many who say the creed weekly do not believe Mary was a virgin. However, the Catholic Church teaches that the virgin birth is still dogma, i.e. an essential belief.

For Our Sake He Was Crucified Under Pontius Pilate; He Suffered, Died, and Was Buried

Jesus died on a cross, suffered as humans do, truly died, and was laid in a tomb. Despite what some critics will level against it, the Nicene Creed is more than just metaphysical speculation, and includes important historical confessions. Notice that in addition to being "true God from true God," Jesus is fully human as well. The early Docetists, named from the Greek word dokeo, "to seem," believed Jesus only seemed to be human, but was not, and simply went through the motions of being human. Thus, when Jesus ate, they said, he only pretended to eat. Docetism was a very early heresy, addressed by the Gospel and Letters of St. John, as well as in St. Ignatius' letters in AD 110.

On the Third Day He Rose Again in Fulfillment of the Scriptures

Jesus was resurrected bodily as the Scriptures say. Just as Jesus truly died, he truly rose from the dead three days later. The bodily resurrection is the keystone of Christian doctrine and experience. However, Jesus was not just physically resuscitated (as was Lazarus), but rather his body was transformed at the resurrection. Rejection of the bodily resurrection is a rejection of the foundation of Catholic Christianity.

He Ascended Into Heaven and Is Seated at the Right Hand of the Father

In ancient science, heaven was thought to be situated above the sky dome (notice how on a starry night the sky looks like a dome that one could pierce through, if one could get that high, e.g. by building a large tower). So in the Scriptures, Jesus is said to ascend to heaven. Whatever happened that day, Luke had to render the event into his own scientific paradigm, so he said Jesus "went up" to heaven. Again, we are limited by our language and experience of spatiality. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, i.e. sharing authority with the Father, and not literally sitting next to the Father.

He Will Come Again in Glory to Judge the Living and the Dead and His Kingdom Will Have No End

Jesus is coming again to righteously judge the living and dead. His kingdom cannot be destroyed, despite all of humanity's efforts. The creed says Jesus is coming; it does not say when or how, nor does it say to speculate on the date of his return or make money doing so!

We Believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life

The Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit sustains our lives as Christians, illuminating us after the new birth. The original Creed of Nicaea simply ended with "We believe in the Holy Spirit." The other additions were approved at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. However, most scholars believe that the text of the full creed dates prior to this council, and that the bishops simply gave their approval to a local creed already in use. The reason these additions were included in the Nicene Creed is that some Christians of the 4th century denied the full divinity of the Holy Spirit. The names given to these heretics were Macedonians (named after a heretical bishop) or pneumatomachi ("fighters against the Spirit").

Who Proceeds from the Father and the Son

The Son is said to be begotten, while the Spirit is said to proceed. Both words convey that the Son and Spirit are in special relationships to the Father, yet also fully divine. The phrase "and the Son," in Latin, filioque, was not in the original text of the creed, but was added in many Western Churches. The addition likely developed over time as a tool against Arians in the Gothic lands. There are theological and historical justifications for the addition or exclusion of the filioque. The Eastern Churches oppose the addition of the filioque, while many Western churches accept it. Actually, despite current division on the matter, the issue has been pretty much theologically resolved. The Catholic Church acknowledges that the Father is the sole source within the Trinity, and admits that "proceeds from the Father and the Son" means "proceeds from the Father through the Son." Catholics also acknowledge that the procession through the Son is not metaphysical, but economic (i.e. describing the Spirit's actions). Also, Eastern Catholics (those Eastern Churches in communion with Rome) do not say the filioque, and remain in full communion with the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches seem willing to allow the interpretation "through the Son," because it does not destroy the monarchy of the Father within the Holy Trinity. However, the filioque remains a major division between Eastern and Western Christianity, mainly because the Western Church added the filioque to the Nicene Creed without Eastern input. It is hoped that this issue will be resolved in the future, as the current environment is far less political than in the past.

With the Father and Son, He is Worshiped and Glorified

The Holy Spirit is God as are the Father and the Son, and worthy of the same worship due to the Father and the Son.

He Has Spoken Through the Prophets

The Spirit inspired the prophets of old, and inspires the Church today.

We Believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

The creed requires belief in the Catholic (universal) Church, whose origins are ancient and historical, going back to the Apostles themselves. Thus, the Church was built upon the faith and witness of the apostles. This witness survives through Apostolic Succession, wherein apostles appointed leaders, who themselves appointed leaders, a process continuing to this day. This Apostolic line survives today primarily in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The Church is "holy" on account of Christ's holiness and grace, and not because its members or leaders are perfect. In fact, at times throughout history, the Church has remained holy in spite of its members.

We Acknowledge One Baptism for the Forgiveness of Sins

Catholics believe that sacramentally, through the waters of baptism, God forgives us of our sins, and we are born again. This belief in baptism's saving power is ancient and universally acknowledged in the early Christian writings. If someone has been validly baptized in the name of the Trinity, then that baptism has definitely "taken" and re-baptism is unnecessary.

We Look for the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Life of the World to Come

Christians always hope for the end of this fractured system, when the universe is fully reconciled to God in Christ Jesus. The Nicene Creed seems to affirm both the existence of a soul-filled heaven and the later resurrection of the dead when soul meets glorified body.

Concluding Remarks

We hope you enjoyed this primer on the Nicene Creed. Remember that the Nicene Creed, besides being rooted in Scriptural concepts, is a product of Christian worship and prayer. For example, even before the Nicene Creed was written, Christians regularly baptized converts into the name of the Trinity, and prayed to the Father in the name of the Son, through the Holy Spirit. Being born from prayer and experience, the creed tries not to define God's nature exactly and precisely like a science textbook would describe something. God's exact nature, such as His threeness and His oneness, is something that we are able to begin to grasp, but never fully comprehend. Just as the mind cannot fully comprehend love or joy, neither can the mind fully comprehend God, whose nature and ways are ultimately beyond our comprehension. As such, while the creed is an authoritative framework, it is rooted in mystery. So if someone says he or she fully understands the Trinity, chances are, that person has no clue what the Trinity is actually about. Since the Nicene Creed is rooted in worship and prayer, besides being believed, it is to be lived out. In this vein, please take a look at Prayers to the Trinity.

Appendix: Nicene Creed Text from the Revised Translation of the English Order of the Mass

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit
was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake
he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated
at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord,
the giver of life, who proceeds
from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

And one, holy, catholic
and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection
of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; creeds
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This is an Ecumenical thread. Please follow the Religion Moderator's Guidelines for Ecumenical Threads

Ecumenical because more than the Catholic Church members recite the Nicene Creed.

1 posted on 07/22/2010 9:05:00 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...

I can hardly wait for the new version (more like the Credo version) is said!

What about you?

Catholic Ping!


2 posted on 07/22/2010 9:07:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: don-o

This may be of interest to you.


3 posted on 07/22/2010 9:12:48 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
The Nicene Creed: Ancient Symbol of the Catholic Faith [Ecumenical]
What's the Point of Creeds?
What’s the Point of Creeds?
Who Needs a Creed? (part 1 of 12)

Creed 7: Ascended Into Heaven
Beginning Catholic: Creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Basic Tenets of Catholicism [Ecumenical]
The Catholic Nicene Creed
We Believe in One God...: The Nicene Creed at Mass [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
I Believe [Apostle's Creed]
Why the Creed Doesn't Mention the Eucharist
The Apostles' Creed in Public and Private Worship
More Than Our Father [The Creed]
The Nicene Creed in Greek and Latin
The Creed - latest revisions proposed by ICEL

4 posted on 07/22/2010 9:16:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thanks.


5 posted on 07/22/2010 9:31:18 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: Salvation

I didn’t know a new creed version was in the works, so I’m not excited. I’ll just mull it over when it gets here.

I do very much like it that Catholics have a creed.


6 posted on 07/22/2010 9:31:24 PM PDT by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: married21

The word “Credo” in Latin/Spanish, etc. has always meant “I believe.”

It is so wonderful to be getting back to the original meanings and translations for Masses said in English! Be happy!


7 posted on 07/22/2010 9:37:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: married21

**I’ll just mull it over when it gets here.**

Hopefully, your priest will be doing a lot of teaching/catechesis with the new translation. It will take some getting used to, but I am already saying much of it (to myself or softly.)

Another example is:

P: “The Lord be with you.”
All: “And with your spirit.” which is a direct translation of the Latin et cum spirtu tuo.

That has become easy for me, because I am saying it now, in fact, I’ve always said it in my mind.


8 posted on 07/22/2010 9:42:24 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Be interested in the comments from our Eastern Orthodox brothers, not to mention those Protestants who accept the Creed. From my own point of view I have generally considered all of those who accept the Creed as fellow Christians (those who do not may be folks of good will, but not Christians).


9 posted on 07/22/2010 10:03:52 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Good night. I expect more respect tomorrow - Danny H (RIP))
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To: Salvation

I’m old enough to remember “and with your Spirit” from early childhood, in the 60’s.

In the early 90’s, I went to an Episcopal mass, and they said “and with your Spirit.” I was shocked that I recognized it, since I had only been 5 or 6 when I last heard it.

I guess some things stay with you.


10 posted on 07/22/2010 10:11:38 PM PDT by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: Salvation
Do you have a copy?

When is the new creed announced?

I hope I am Wrong. I am leery. If in the creed jesus was not born of a virgin. I am out of here!Also I find it very strange that 80 plus year old pope wants to change the creed. I know he is conservative. But if he drops dead in the process. God Forbid! Remember the Prophecies from catholic saints. After this one. If nothing is definitely saying Christ came in the flesh(Human). That pope is the anti-christ or the great apostate. I know I sound like an alarmist. But with these end time pieces coming into play.

11 posted on 07/22/2010 10:13:35 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: Salvation

Thats the new one at the end of the article. Oh! Thats more defined.


12 posted on 07/22/2010 10:17:11 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: Salvation
The Son was not 'eternally begotten', he was begotten in time.(Ps.2)

Before the 2nd person of the Trinity became the Son, he was the Word and always existed with the Father,(Jn.1:1) as did the Holy Spirit.

13 posted on 07/22/2010 10:22:24 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: Salvation
"he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man."

If thats it. Its more clear!

14 posted on 07/22/2010 10:22:36 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
"The Son was not 'eternally begotten', he was begotten in time."

His Divinity was still en tacked as he become human. Like divinity put on the clothing of humanity.

15 posted on 07/22/2010 10:27:32 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Before the 2nd person of the Trinity became the Son, he was the Word and always existed with the Father,

That's what "eternally begotten of the Father" means. The contrary position, that Jesus is the incarnation of some created demigod who came into existence at a particular point of time, is the heresy of Arianism.

16 posted on 07/22/2010 10:37:07 PM PDT by Campion
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To: fortheDeclaration
Before the 2nd person of the Trinity became the Son

Oh, and the 2nd person of the Trinity was always the Son of the Father. He became the Son of Mary when he entered into creation in the Incarnation.

17 posted on 07/22/2010 10:38:38 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Salvation
The word “Credo” in Latin/Spanish, etc. has always meant “I believe.”

And for years, I've been quietly saying "I believe" instead of "We believe" during the Creed at Novus Ordo masses. Soon thankfully I will no longer be in "dissent" in continuing this practice ;-)

18 posted on 07/22/2010 11:57:13 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Campion
No, Sonship is an aspect of humility to the Father,as part of the Plan.

In eternity, the 2nd person was the Word, not the Son.

He became the Son after he was begotten.

19 posted on 07/23/2010 2:46:16 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: Campion
The Son was not 'eternally begotten' he was begotten in time.

Begotten means to be created, the Word was not created.

It is those who teach an 'eternally begotten Son' that are teaching Arianism.

The Word was never begotten.

20 posted on 07/23/2010 2:49:32 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: Salvation

Our priest leaves out ‘men’ from creed...I wonder if he will still do that with this one.

I hope not...I still leave it in...

You know, Sakvation...I don’t think some at church know its wrong ...


21 posted on 07/23/2010 2:50:31 AM PDT by aimee5291
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To: johngrace

The Word became the Son when He was begotten in time, not eternity.


22 posted on 07/23/2010 2:50:44 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: Salvation

I know I miss spelled your name...guess its early :)

It will be interested to see how the changes are received..


23 posted on 07/23/2010 3:00:13 AM PDT by aimee5291
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To: married21; Salvation
This is not a new Creed in any way. Instead of translating Credo as "I", "We" was used. This does not change the concept, the meaning or the intent of the Creed. Please do not say this is new -- it is not
24 posted on 07/23/2010 3:34:30 AM PDT by Cronos (What's the point of a homosexual pride parade? Is an adulterer's pride parade next?)
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To: Salvation
I have read (somewhere) that the first creeds were needed to confirm the bona fides of the Bishops. Perhaps a mental note might be added, like "I believe..." (in agreement with my Bishop).

What "I" believe is not worth anything unless it is in agreement with what the bishop believes (and teaches).

For us some of us, maybe all, converts, the relinquishing of our autonomy in faith matters is a huge hurdle. But, it can be surmounted for the one thing needful.

25 posted on 07/23/2010 4:06:04 AM PDT by don-o (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: Salvation
A snip from your second link. Thank you for those and for ALL the great links

-----

Yet it's the object, not the subjective act, of faith that makes the creeds sacred. They are sacred because Truth is sacred, not because believing is sacred. Creeds do not say merely what we believe, but what is. Creeds wake us from our dreams and prejudices into objective reality. Creeds do not confine us in little cages, as the modern world thinks; creeds free us into the outdoors, into the real world where the winds of heaven whip around our heads.

26 posted on 07/23/2010 4:12:25 AM PDT by don-o (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: Salvation

“P: “The Lord be with you.”
All: “And with your spirit.” which is a direct translation of the Latin et cum spirtu tuo.

That has become easy for me, because I am saying it now, in fact, I’ve always said it in my mind.”

Our choir leader warbles, “And ALSO with YOU!”

I love her but it just drives me nuts when she goes Broadway.

It’s going to be difficult to do the same with “And with your spirit.”


27 posted on 07/23/2010 4:32:53 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: fortheDeclaration; don-o; Campion; wagglebee

I’ll be out the rest of the day so I won’t be able to reply.

Are you saying that the second person of the Trinity only became the Son of God at his incarnation. Apart from the incarnation he was still God, but not the Son, just the second Person?


28 posted on 07/23/2010 4:51:33 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Salvation

Looking forward to it, too, FRiend.

Actually, when we say the Credo at Mass, I do say “I” in all of the places that say “we”, but I say it silently so as not to distract anyone. Anyone recording me would be a little confused because I am dropping a word every now and then. :)


29 posted on 07/23/2010 6:48:35 AM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin/Hunter 2012 -- Bolton their Secretary of State)
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To: johngrace
**was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.**

INCARNATION

The union of the divine nature of the Son of God with human nature in the person of Jesus Christ. The Son of God assumed our flesh, body, and soul, and dwelled among us like one of us in order to redeem us. His divine nature was substantially united to our human nature. Formerly the Feast of the Annunciation was called the Feast of the Incarnation. In the Eastern Churches the mystery is commemorated by a special feast on December 26. (Etym. Latin incarnatio; from in-, in + caro, flesh: incarnare, to make flesh.)

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

30 posted on 07/23/2010 7:23:43 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fortheDeclaration

**he was begotten in time**

I have been led to believe that God has no time. Man cannot understand it fully since we think in analog — one after the other second, minutes, hour, day, year, etc.


31 posted on 07/23/2010 7:25:20 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Christ was here at the beginning with God as was the Holy Spirit in the Garden of Eden.

“Let US make man in our own image.” Genesis


32 posted on 07/23/2010 7:27:26 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fortheDeclaration
You must not believe in the Bible then, specifically in the beginning of the Gospel of John!

(You can click on the footnote connotations if you wish)

John
Chapter 1
1
1 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
4 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

33 posted on 07/23/2010 7:30:48 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: aimee5291

not to worry, OK?


34 posted on 07/23/2010 7:31:18 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: don-o

I’ve learned that everything in the Nicene Creed was to counteract a heresy or dispute among the early Church. Does that make sense to you?


35 posted on 07/23/2010 7:32:39 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Begotten means to be created

That's explicitly not what "eternally begotten" means. It is those who teach an 'eternally begotten Son' that are teaching Arianism.

So, in other words, you're asking me to believe that the council called to refute Arianism ended up endorsing it? The Arians sure didn't see it that way. Neither do any church historians that I know.

God the Son is eternally God the Son, and always has been: uncreated divinity, one in substance with the Father. God in his essence is unchangeable.

36 posted on 07/23/2010 7:37:44 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Salvation

Thanks for posting. It is such a relief to see ‘credo’ translated as ‘I believe.’ It is a first person conjugation and to say ‘WE’ just drives me nuts.


37 posted on 07/23/2010 7:47:45 AM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

hahah, I have been saying, quietly, “I believe” too. Finally we can come out.


38 posted on 07/23/2010 7:49:20 AM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: Salvation

Speaking of ‘engraved in your brain from earliest times’ — I still say, “He descended into Hell” — which must be the old version of the Apostles’ Creed? I see it once in a while like that, but have to be careful to READ the Creed so that I don’t say it ‘wrong.’


39 posted on 07/23/2010 7:51:46 AM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: Salvation

Yes! Thank you I know what the word means. This is a more traditional proper way. I thought at first new. We are going back to the right way. Thank you for post.


40 posted on 07/23/2010 8:10:48 AM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: johngrace

There is NO NEW CREED. It is just a new (and more accurate) translation of the creed. It will be used in the Mass starting on the first Sunday of Advent, 2011. Many prayers are changing - all for the better. More traditional renderings, closer to the Latin.

It will be a good thing (although confusing for some people at first).

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/


41 posted on 07/23/2010 8:52:37 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: fortheDeclaration

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9311frs.asp


42 posted on 07/23/2010 8:56:41 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998

Thanks! I read that late night at first. When someone says change. My eyebrow goes up.


43 posted on 07/23/2010 9:08:48 AM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
"The Son was not 'eternally begotten' he was begotten in time. Begotten means to be created, the Word was not created. It is those who teach an 'eternally begotten Son' that are teaching Arianism."

NO! You have it in reverse. We say Begotten not made. It does not mean created! Or Made!

Such a mind was Arius(Arianism), who proposed, instead, that Jesus was a sort of godlet, not God with a capital “G.”

He preached that Jesus was sort of like a super archangel: greater than all other creatures (and so, “divine” in comparison with the rest of creation), but not actually God. This seems abstract, but it actually constituted an assault on the most fundamental basics of the Christian faith, because if Jesus is not God, he can neither save nor give eternal life (that is, the life of God) to us.

The Council of Nicaea, in resolving the controversy, insists (following St. John) that Christ is “begotten, not made.” Why? For the same reason we insist that our children are not the same as statues.

An artist makes a statue; he begets a son. To beget is to share your nature with another being. God made human beings. But God the Father begets the Son eternally. The Son shares his Father’s nature. And since the nature of the Father is to have no beginning, the Son also has no beginning. He is begotten from all eternity by the Father. In him is eternal life from the Father, and, therefore, he can share that life with us creatures.

For eternal life originates only in God, not in creatures.

The eternity of Christ is a stunning thing to contemplate: that this manual laborer who stands before us with dirty feet, calloused hands, and a rough up-country accent is, in fact, the Being who has existed from all eternity in the blinding light of the heart of God, sharing completely in his glory and showing forth the express image of the Holy One who hurled all the galaxies into being.

It is rather a lot to take in.

It’s no wonder the Son “emptied himself,” as Paul says, becoming human and dimming his splendor so that we could see him with our mortal eyes. And yet, even dimmed, he remains the Light of the world.

When you look at the sun, do you see the sun or the light from the sun? Obviously, to do the one is to do the other. Christianity says the same thing is happening when you look at Christ. If you’ve seen the Son, you’ve seen the Father, for the Son is the exact representation of the Father, just as sunlight carries with it the exact representation of the sun from which it came. That is why the creed calls Jesus “Light from Light.”

http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/17439/

44 posted on 07/23/2010 9:21:06 AM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: don-o

Nice thought!


45 posted on 07/23/2010 9:26:03 AM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: vladimir998

Good article!


46 posted on 07/23/2010 9:33:45 AM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: ken5050

Print and read later


47 posted on 07/23/2010 9:57:36 AM PDT by ken5050 (Save the Earth..It's the only planet with chocolate!!!)
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To: johngrace
["The Son was not 'eternally begotten' he was begotten in time. Begotten means to be created, the Word was not created. It is those who teach an 'eternally begotten Son' that are teaching Arianism."]

NO! You have it in reverse. We say Begotten not made. It does not mean created! Or Made! Such a mind was Arius(Arianism), who proposed, instead, that Jesus was a sort of godlet, not God with a capital “G.” He preached that Jesus was sort of like a super archangel: greater than all other creatures (and so, “divine” in comparison with the rest of creation), but not actually God. This seems abstract, but it actually constituted an assault on the most fundamental basics of the Christian faith, because if Jesus is not God, he can neither save nor give eternal life (that is, the life of God) to us. The Council of Nicaea, in resolving the controversy, insists (following St. John) that Christ is “begotten, not made.” Why? For the same reason we insist that our children are not the same as statues. An artist makes a statue; he begets a son. To beget is to share your nature with another being. God made human beings. But God the Father begets the Son eternally. The Son shares his Father’s nature. And since the nature of the Father is to have no beginning, the Son also has no beginning. He is begotten from all eternity by the Father. In him is eternal life from the Father, and, therefore, he can share that life with us creatures. For eternal life originates only in God, not in creatures. The eternity of Christ is a stunning thing to contemplate: that this manual laborer who stands before us with dirty feet, calloused hands, and a rough up-country accent is, in fact, the Being who has existed from all eternity in the blinding light of the heart of God, sharing completely in his glory and showing forth the express image of the Holy One who hurled all the galaxies into being. It is rather a lot to take in. It’s no wonder the Son “emptied himself,” as Paul says, becoming human and dimming his splendor so that we could see him with our mortal eyes. And yet, even dimmed, he remains the Light of the world. When you look at the sun, do you see the sun or the light from the sun? Obviously, to do the one is to do the other. Christianity says the same thing is happening when you look at Christ. If you’ve seen the Son, you’ve seen the Father, for the Son is the exact representation of the Father, just as sunlight carries with it the exact representation of the sun from which it came. That is why the creed calls Jesus “Light from Light.” http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/17439/

The word 'begotten' means 'procreated' 'generated'(Webster 1828)

Jn. 1:1 doesn't say, 'in the beginning was the Son' it says in the 'beginnng was the Word'.

If the Son was eternally 'begotten' it is saying he CAME from the Father-in eternity!

This is Platonic nonsense.

The Plan of God deals with how the three members of the Trinity were going to interact in time.

Hence, the different names given to them in time.

The Son was begotten in TIME 'Thou art my Son, THIS DAY, have I begotten thee' (Ps.2:7)

The 'begetting' of the 'Son' (who is the Word (Rev.19:13) occured in time, not eternity.

Now, the confusion is simply that since we NOW know Him as the Son, that He was always known as the Son, when He wasn't.

48 posted on 07/23/2010 4:28:49 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration

In all honesty. I have read many theology books. I have never heard of this before. When I was looking it up I came across some who imply this same notion. But I do not see it in early Christianity( Church Fathers). The original argument is about divinity becoming human. Where did you first here this Son definition. I never read this before. Just curious not to belittle. Who wrote this?


49 posted on 07/23/2010 4:51:46 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: bboop

**“He descended into Hell” **

Yes, in the Apostles’ Creed. I don’t know if I will ever be able to change it.


50 posted on 07/23/2010 8:31:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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