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Intended Catholic Dictatorship
Independent Individualist ^ | 8/27/10 | Reginald Firehammer

Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief

Intended Catholic Dictatorship

The ultimate intention of Catholicism is the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. That has always been the ambition, at least covertly, but now it is being promoted overtly and openly.

The purpose of this article is only to make that intention clear. It is not a criticism of Catholics or Catholicism (unless you happen to think a Catholic dictatorship is not a good thing).

The most important point is to understand that when a Catholic talks about liberty or freedom, it is not individual liberty that is meant, not the freedom to live one's life as a responsible individual with the freedom to believe as one chooses, not the freedom to pursue happiness, not the freedom to produce and keep what one has produced as their property. What Catholicism means by freedom, is freedom to be a Catholic, in obedience to the dictates of Rome.

The Intentions Made Plain

The following is from the book Revolution and Counter-Revolution:

"B. Catholic Culture and Civilization

"Therefore, the ideal of the Counter-Revolution is to restore and promote Catholic culture and civilization. This theme would not be sufficiently enunciated if it did not contain a definition of what we understand by Catholic culture and Catholic civilization. We realize that the terms civilization and culture are used in many different senses. Obviously, it is not our intention here to take a position on a question of terminology. We limit ourselves to using these words as relatively precise labels to indicate certain realities. We are more concerned with providing a sound idea of these realities than with debating terminology.

"A soul in the state of grace possesses all virtues to a greater or lesser degree. Illuminated by faith, it has the elements to form the only true vision of the universe.

"The fundamental element of Catholic culture is the vision of the universe elaborated according to the doctrine of the Church. This culture includes not only the learning, that is, the possession of the information needed for such an elaboration, but also the analysis and coordination of this information according to Catholic doctrine. This culture is not restricted to the theological, philosophical, or scientific field, but encompasses the breadth of human knowledge; it is reflected in the arts and implies the affirmation of values that permeate all aspects of life.

"Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church.

Got that? "Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church." The other name for this is called "totalitarianism," the complete rule of every aspect of life.

This book and WEB sites like that where it is found are spreading like wildfire. These people do not believe the hope of America is the restoration of the liberties the founders sought to guarantee, these people believe the only hope for America is Fatima. Really!

In Their Own Words

The following is from the site, "RealCatholicTV." It is a plain call for a "benevolent dictatorship, a Catholic monarch;" their own words. They even suggest that when the "Lord's Payer," is recited, it is just such a Catholic dictatorship that is being prayed for.

[View video in original here or on Youtube. Will not show in FR.]

Two Comments

First, in this country, freedom of speech means that anyone may express any view no matter how much anyone else disagrees with that view, or is offended by it. I totally defend that meaning of freedom of speech.

This is what Catholics believe, and quite frankly, I do not see how any consistent Catholic could disagree with it, though I suspect some may. I have no objection to their promoting those views, because it is what they believe. Quite frankly I am delighted they are expressing them openly. For one thing, it makes it much easier to understand Catholic dialog, and what they mean by the words they use.

Secondly, I think if their views were actually implemented, it would mean the end true freedom, of course, but I do not believe there is any such danger.

—Reginald Firehammer (06/28/10)


TOPICS: Activism; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: individualliberty
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To: Jaded

Most of their theology is anti-Catholic YOPIOS. They believe that they speak for all Protestants when the reality is that they are a rather insignificant minority. Lutherans and Anglicans have definite theological differences with the Church, but they don’t teach that hatred of the Blessed Mother is one of those differences.


8,751 posted on 10/05/2010 12:38:22 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Natural Law
neither the term "Alter Christus" nor "another Christ" appear anywhere in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Wrong again.

“The priest on earth (is) another Christ.” -- The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism.

Apparently you're not familiar with Roman Catholic dogma or teaching...

“In this moment, the priest quite literally becomes Christ Himself.” (This is the Mass, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, Page 100)

“The priest is not just the cross, he is Christ Himself.” (The Lone Star Catholic, March 1, 1959)

“To the carnal eye, the priest looks like other men, but to the eye of faith he is exalted above angels.” (Faith of our Fathers, Gibbons, Page 422)

“Another grace of the synod [Synod of Bishops, October, 1990] was a new maturity in the way of looking at priestly service in the Church; and thus also of the personal life of each and every priest, that is to say, of each priest’s participation in the saving mystery of Christ: ‘Sacerdos Alter Christus.’” (Pope John Paul II, Letter to Catholic priests on the occasion of Holy Thursday, 1991).

“The priest is given transcendent power to forgive sins, to administer the sacraments, but most of all to offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in which he becomes an ‘Alter Christus’” (Pastoral Reflections on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Cardinal John J. O’Conner.)

“In the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the priest is a substitute of Christ Himself. As a result of his ordination, he is a true alter Christus.” (The Latin Mass: Chronicle of a Catholic Reform, Summer 1995 Issue. )

“Thus the priest, as is said with good reason, is indeed another Christ;” (Papal Encyclical ‘Ad Catholici Sacerdotii’ on the priesthood, Pope Pius XI, December 20, 1935)

At the ordination ceremony of the Roman Catholic priest, these men are explicitly told they are becoming an "alter Christus."

Lies. Blasphemous, God-denying, Christ-demeaning lies.

8,752 posted on 10/05/2010 12:38:40 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

INDEED. INDEED.

I enjoy honey . . . even knowing what part of the insect’s anatomy it flows from.

Some pretenders seem to think that their fantasized theological dance through

the

Vatican’s Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling

produces similar goodies.

I guess their noses are broken.


8,753 posted on 10/05/2010 12:38:44 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wagglebee

wb:”FIRST of all you would need to find where the Catholic Church has EVER suggested that the Blessed Mother ascended into Heaven.”

The Feast of the Assumption
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

wb: “Again, the Catholic Church has ALWAYS acknowledged that the Blessed Mother was saved by grace, the Church simply understands that she was protected from sin at the moment of her conception.”

Where’s the Scripture that states that Mary was born without sin? Why was it necessary? Why couldn’t/wouldn’t God do that for the rest of the human race then?

If God could do it for Mary who was born of sinful parents, then He could have done it for Jesus even though He was born of a sinful woman.


8,754 posted on 10/05/2010 12:40:58 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Natural Law; Jaded

Thanks for this link.

I had already looked it up myself some months ago when it was offered as recommended reading by one of the FReformed on this forum.

I also have experienced watershed from Boettner’s work: parishes in my area have been confronted with Missions to Catholics International people when leaving after Mass. We were yelled at that we were “going to hell in a bucket” and other such slogans, in Fred Phelps-like style. Our car windshields were littered with ugly and inflammatory pamphlets.

It was the harassment that parishes were experiencing that was the catalyst for the founding of Catholic Answers.


8,755 posted on 10/05/2010 12:41:58 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Thanks for yet another great example of Roman Catholic exegesis, such as it is."

The Catholic practice of means that we look within Scripture for its meaning. This is in stark contrast with Calvinism which relies on "eisegesis">

Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their preexisting belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. Those who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and or to entertain that there may possible be another way to look at it or interpret it. They start off with the upfront goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation".

8,756 posted on 10/05/2010 12:42:08 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: wagglebee
The fact that anti-Catholics either cannot or will not accept the simplicity of the first chapter of the Gospel of Saint Luke is a shame.

I think it ties in with their absolute blind spot about love of neighbor: There is a hatred of humanity there which they imagine God, who is Love, shares. Except, of course, for them -- and that individually; no apparent awareness (apart from occasional apparent lip-service) that anyone but themselves is important. And to allow that God might "favor" anyone over them is unacceptable. Some of them insist on "equality" as if the U.S. Constitution is the ruling document in Heaven.

Me, I rejoice in goodness wherever I see it, and praise God for it.

8,757 posted on 10/05/2010 12:42:56 PM PDT by maryz
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To: 1000 silverlings; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; ...
So there's this claim that a sinless Mary, blessed be her name, was assumed bodily into heaven

Correct, that is what the Church has ALWAYS taught.

Then what was the point of Jesus dying and being resurrected? As the book of Hebrews states, He was made our forerunner, to go ahead of us, and pave the way. Why would you want to deny that any Christian, especially Mary, not follow in his footsteps?

The Blessed Virgin Mary was assumed into Heaven by her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. She is in Heaven with Him.

8,758 posted on 10/05/2010 12:44:06 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Wrong again."

Yes you are. All of those references, none of which are official Church doctrine, use the phrase alter Christus. No one is contesting that, but none affirm your twisted interpretation that there is "another Christ". All concur that the priest acts in the place of Christ.

8,759 posted on 10/05/2010 12:47:41 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: wagglebee
Are you saying that over 500 years ago is "recent"?

Five hundred years is not 2000 years. Rome has permitted paganism to seep into its theology for centuries. The Marian doctrines are a prime example.

even if it is false, your use of the word blasphemy makes no sense. NOTHING in the definition of the Assumption suggested that the Blessed Mother was assumed by her own power or suggests that she is divine or shows any contempt of lack of reverence toward God, therefore it cannot be blasphemous. If you want to claim that it is blasphemous, please take actual statements from Munificentissimus Deus which meet the definition of blasphemy.

What a great example of misunderstanding life and salvation. The assumption of Mary bodily into heaven teaches that this act was possible because Mary was supposedly born, lived and died sinless.

And that is blasphemy by imparting divine characteristics and abilities to the creature when they belong to God alone.

Again, I will point out that you have failed to address the FACT that the Dormition of the Theotokos (Assumption) is celebrated by the Orthodox Church and the Schism was in the middle of the 11th century.

lol.

When the Orthodox consider themselves Protestant, you be sure to tell them. Do you think we've forgotten your statement? You wrote...

There are a great many Protestants who actually recognize the Assumption/Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

So as evidence for your goofy statement you offer the EO. Nope. Tell us what Protestants recognize as dogma the assumption of Mary.

8,760 posted on 10/05/2010 12:48:17 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: metmom; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; annalex; ...
For starters, you need to understand that the Ascension and the Assumption are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT events.

Christ ascended into Heaven through His own Power.

The Blessed Mother was assumed into Heaven by our Lord through His own Power.

Where’s the Scripture that states that Mary was born without sin?

Genesis chapter 3 and Luke chapter 1.

Why was it necessary?

So that God was carried in an immaculate vessel.

Why couldn’t/wouldn’t God do that for the rest of the human race then?

Read the first three chapters of Genesis. He could have, He tried to, man failed.

If God could do it for Mary who was born of sinful parents, then He could have done it for Jesus even though He was born of a sinful woman.

He wasn't doing for Mary, He was doing it for Himself.

"Blessed AMONG women" means ALL women. For the Blessed Mother to be conceived in sin would make the mother of God INFERIOR to the mother of Cain.

8,761 posted on 10/05/2010 12:51:57 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Natural Law

So the Baltimore Catechism and papal enclycicals are not “official church doctrine?”

lolol.

That screeching you hear is the frantic back-pedaling of RC apologists who cannot defend their faith from the Scriptures nor from “official church doctrine.”


8,762 posted on 10/05/2010 12:52:17 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg
1 Cor 15

For those who accept Paul as an apostle)

There is no point after Christ for anyone not to taste of death and be raised a quickened spirit. In fact, one has to die to be resurrected. The only way for Mary to get out of it is for her to be called pre-existent and the firstborn of every creature. She is not, Christ is, and He died and was resurrected for reasons

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

8,763 posted on 10/05/2010 12:53:12 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Quix

Honey comes from the mouth parts of the bee.


8,764 posted on 10/05/2010 12:53:35 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

My Dad is the bee expert. Not me.

I have read otherwise.

What do I know.


8,765 posted on 10/05/2010 1:00:06 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Natural Law

LOL


8,766 posted on 10/05/2010 1:00:29 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; ...
Five hundred years is not 2000 years. Rome has permitted paganism to seep into its theology for centuries.

You used the term RECENT speculation.

What a great example of misunderstanding life and salvation.

Always with the personal attacks.

The assumption of Mary bodily into heaven teaches that this act was possible because Mary was supposedly born, lived and died sinless.

And that is blasphemy by imparting divine characteristics and abilities to the creature when they belong to God alone.

Again, does your sect teach that Adam and Eve were divine at Creation?

When the Orthodox consider themselves Protestant, you be sure to tell them. Do you think we've forgotten your statement? You wrote...

There are a great many Protestants who actually recognize the Assumption/Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Yes, that is true. Are you aware that there are far more Protestants out there then just the 27,000 members of your sect? There really are Protestants who celebrate the Marian feasts. These are the Protestants who actually worship God and not the twisted teachings of hyper-Calvinism.

8,767 posted on 10/05/2010 1:01:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg

Christ died for Mary. To deny this is in essence to deny the resurrection. there is no scripture anywhere that says “it is appointed for some to die”, or “some must die and be quickened”. Mary’s bodily assumption denies the resurrection and lessens Christ’s sacrifice, but maybe that’s the idea


8,768 posted on 10/05/2010 1:02:06 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Natural Law
The Catholic practice of means that we look within Scripture for its meaning.

Be sure to alert us when and if this ever happens.

Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their preexisting belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine.

lol. Copying someone else's definition is never a good idea if you can't support it yourself.

But more importantly, I used the word "Exegesis." You apparently think that's synonymous with "Eisegesis."

You're wrong. Educate yourself.

8,769 posted on 10/05/2010 1:04:17 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; metmom; boatbums; smvoice; Quix; Gamecock; count-your-change; ...

This is worth repeating

We search the Scriptures and rightly divide the word to learn what is true. As Augustine said, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

And the vast majority of Protestants are unified in the most important doctrines of Christianity — that men are saved by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Protestants believe that. Roman Catholics don’t. In fact, Rome disbelieves that so much it anathematizes anyone who does believe it.


8,770 posted on 10/05/2010 1:05:19 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"So the Baltimore Catechism and papal enclycicals are not “official church doctrine?”"

Your statement shows just how little you actually know about the Church and its workings. The pity is that when you reach the end of your knowledge you just make stuff up.

The Baltimore Catechism is a simple elementary school primer on the Catholic Dogma developed in the 19th century. It is not now and never was the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you are relying on it as your authoritative source it explains your second grade approach to Catholic dogma.

Encyclicals and Papal letters, not issued ex cathedra, are not Catholic doctrine. English translations of them are rarely accurate.

Miscellaneous papers and articles are just that.

8,771 posted on 10/05/2010 1:06:19 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg
ridiculous. Ruth was a moabite, joseph married an Egyptian, Christ has harlots and murderers in his family tree. God imparts His Holiness and when the HS came to her, then she was made acceptable. Then the HS departed, just like He did numerous other times in the scriptures, and was not to indwell people again until after the resurrection.
8,772 posted on 10/05/2010 1:07:42 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; ...
Mary’s bodily assumption denies the resurrection

That is among the most absurd things I've ever heard, where did you learn such nonsense?

8,773 posted on 10/05/2010 1:07:59 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

from you


8,774 posted on 10/05/2010 1:08:18 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: RnMomof7
"Rome disbelieves that so much it anathematizes anyone who does believe it."

You say that like it is a bad thing. Excommunication says you shall have no further dealings with the Church. Anathematization says the Church shall have nothing more to do with you. If you reject the teaching of the Church it really isn't any skin off of your nose, now is it?

8,775 posted on 10/05/2010 1:10:36 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: wagglebee
why did Christ die and be raised? He could have just opened up Heaven and let us all in. Yet we also learn that God is not a respector of persons, and we learn what fates awaited some of the apostles and disciples. Yet no mention is ever made in scripture of anyone escaping death like Mary. Is this the old "it's not there so it could have happened" argument?
8,776 posted on 10/05/2010 1:12:57 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: 1000 silverlings; wagglebee
Yet no mention is ever made in scripture of anyone escaping death like Mary.

Umm, the dogma doesn't say anything about whether she died or not. It plainly states that she was taken up into Heaven body and soul. If you took the time to read Pius XII's document, it gives several indications that she did die.

8,777 posted on 10/05/2010 1:16:42 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; ...
God imparts His Holiness and when the HS came to her, then she was made acceptable. Then the HS departed, just like He did numerous other times in the scriptures, and was not to indwell people again until after the resurrection.

If that's what you believe, fine. It doesn't make it right, I just really don't care what you believe.

Let's face it, this thread was started by a leftist TROLL who was banned for being a TROLL and his essay is based on a complete misunderstanding of history.

Now, thousands of posts later, we have a bunch of non-Catholics who believe that the most important tenet of their faith is that they don't believe what Catholics believe. Being an anti-Catholic makes someone a bigot, not a Christian. There are more than a few anti-Catholics on this thread who make well over 90% of their posts on anti-Catholic threads, they aren't Christians, they are agents of Satan, they are known by their fruits.

8,778 posted on 10/05/2010 1:17:34 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Pyro7480

Pius’ opinion is just that, pius’ opinion


8,779 posted on 10/05/2010 1:18:53 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg; Judith Anne; stfassisi; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; ...
Judith wrote:

For 1800 years, Catholics believed Mary was assumed into heaven. It wasn't formalized until Pope Pius XII. But way back in the very early church it was believed and taught. To which you responded:

Wrong. It was a recent and impious speculation that turned into RC doctrine just over a century ago.

Perhaps you can explain why the Orthodox also celebrate it as the Dormition of the Theotokos? The Schism was in the 12th century.

Perhaps you can explain some of this "recent" artwork:

You are correct in that the artwork is recent, especially in terms of Judith's 1800 years. The oldest is approximately 535 years old while the most recent is less than 400 years old.

More accurately some Catholics believed in the Bodily Assumption of Mary and some disagreed.

8,780 posted on 10/05/2010 1:19:23 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Religion Moderator
from you

Really? Can you show me where I wrote that the Assumption denies the Resurrection? Or are you just trying (and failing miserably I might add) to read my mind?

8,781 posted on 10/05/2010 1:20:42 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; OLD REGGIE; count-your-change

ok, don’t defend your anti-scriptual theology, just start with the ad hominems. Trolls, satanists and bigots, got it. Um—hum


8,782 posted on 10/05/2010 1:21:09 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: wagglebee

It truly is a crying shame that this thread is closing on the 8,800 mark.


8,783 posted on 10/05/2010 1:21:27 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Beam. Splinter.


8,784 posted on 10/05/2010 1:22:18 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Especially when you consider the essay that the thread stemmed from.


8,785 posted on 10/05/2010 1:22:24 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Religion Moderator

the theology that I posted, from Hebrews, and Corinthians, explains it all, start there


8,786 posted on 10/05/2010 1:22:40 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Pyro7480

I’ll get the popcorn while you go find where I have called people trolls, bigots and satanists


8,787 posted on 10/05/2010 1:24:00 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: wagglebee
Don't get carried away on the back of own hyperbole. The meaning of what Paul said is rather simple and easily understood had you taken time to examine it closely. As your non-sequitur of a response demonstrates, that didn't happen.
8,788 posted on 10/05/2010 1:26:22 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Religion Moderator; Hank Kerchief
just start with the ad hominems.

Trust me, I was calling Hank a troll long before this thread.

Trolls, satanists and bigots, got it. Um—hum

Question for you.

Who do you think is closer to you in beliefs:

A. A Catholic
or
B. Someone who claims to be a Christian but denies the Trinity

8,789 posted on 10/05/2010 1:26:30 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: MarkBsnr; RnMomof7
Prove that Constantine added anything to Christianity, much less pagan things.

Well........the fact that Constantine lived and died a pagan while still having effective control over the, yet to be named, Catholic Church is cause for concern.

It is true that Constantine added much more to the Catholic Church after his death with the FORGED Donation of Constantine.

8,790 posted on 10/05/2010 1:27:34 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Religion Moderator
the theology that I posted, from Hebrews, and Corinthians, explains it all, start there

No, YOU said you got that the Assumption denied the Resurrection from me. Either you can show where I wrote that or you were trying to read my mind.

8,791 posted on 10/05/2010 1:28:35 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Legatus; 1000 silverlings; metmom; boatbums; editor-surveyor; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; ...
OK, take a deep breath. If we had the body of the woman who we call the Blessed Mother of God, do you think there's ANY chance we wouldn't be parading it all over the place?

Nope, not a chance it would be broken up in little pieces and sold to the highest bidder.. for the good of their soul..it does cost money to keep the palace at rome and all the popes furs..

I mean come on, we've got places claiming to have all sorts of strange relics, if someone thought they had the body of the BVM (or maybe even thought they could get away with claiming they had the body...) we'd never hear the end of it. You wanna talk about Madonna on tour? That'd be a procession that would drive puritans to drink.

My point WAS why would the church speculate on where Mary's tomb is, if they believe she was assumed.. (perhaps while still alive.. but not YET a doctrine)

8,792 posted on 10/05/2010 1:29:40 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: MarkBsnr; RnMomof7
Prove that Constantine added anything to Christianity, much less pagan things.

Well........the fact that Constantine lived and died a pagan while still having effective control over the, yet to be named, Catholic Church is cause for concern.

It is true that Constantine added much more to the Catholic Church after his death with the FORGED Donation of Constantine.

8,793 posted on 10/05/2010 1:29:45 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: wagglebee; Natural Law; maryz; Judith Anne; Legatus

What the Reformation cult hereon teaches/believes depends on 1)the day of the week 2)the temperature 3)the position of the moon 4)what the magic 8 ball says.

The responses fall on deaf ears. They don’t care, they don’t want to know. The only thing they love is the sound of their own voices. They require lots of prayers.


8,794 posted on 10/05/2010 1:30:21 PM PDT by Jaded (I realized that after Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Religion Moderator; Pyro7480
I’ll get the popcorn while you go find where I have called people trolls, bigots and satanists

I called the person who posted this thread a troll. He was a troll, he was banned for being a troll.

Do I believe their are bigots and those who serve Satan on this thread? Yes. But I have NEVER indicated by name who they are.

8,795 posted on 10/05/2010 1:30:59 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: 1000 silverlings; wagglebee
ok, don’t defend your anti-scriptual theology, just start with the ad hominems. Trolls, satanists and bigots, got it. Um—hum

Let's face it, this thread was started by a leftist TROLL who was banned for being a TROLL and his essay is based on a complete misunderstanding of history.

Clearer?

8,796 posted on 10/05/2010 1:32:13 PM PDT by Jaded (I realized that after Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F)
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To: count-your-change
The meaning of what Paul said is rather simple and easily understood had you taken time to examine it closely. As your non-sequitur of a response demonstrates, that didn't happen.

The fact that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is at odds with the Church's DOES NOT mean that your's is correct.

8,797 posted on 10/05/2010 1:33:30 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Natural Law
"If God wished Mary to be as "venerated" as she is by Catholics,"

It would be in His power for it to be so.....oh, wait she is.

Ohh yes she is, but that does not mean it is Gods will.. Idols are never Gods will

Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

8,798 posted on 10/05/2010 1:35:24 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: wagglebee
well, you made the claim that she was assumed bodily into heaven. And so I asked you, which you never answered, what was the point of Jesus dying and being resurrected? Then I posted theology, from the scriptures explaining the resurrection, and why all men must die to be resurrected spiritually. If some men need not die, then what was the point?
8,799 posted on 10/05/2010 1:36:51 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: RnMomof7
"Ohh yes she is, but that does not mean it is Gods will.. Idols are never Gods will"

It doesn't mean it isn't either. It is a matter of which interpretations we choose to accept. I reject yours.

Oh, and by the way, your functional definition of "idol" doesn't make any sense.

8,800 posted on 10/05/2010 1:38:42 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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