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Intended Catholic Dictatorship
Independent Individualist ^ | 8/27/10 | Reginald Firehammer

Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief

Intended Catholic Dictatorship

The ultimate intention of Catholicism is the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. That has always been the ambition, at least covertly, but now it is being promoted overtly and openly.

The purpose of this article is only to make that intention clear. It is not a criticism of Catholics or Catholicism (unless you happen to think a Catholic dictatorship is not a good thing).

The most important point is to understand that when a Catholic talks about liberty or freedom, it is not individual liberty that is meant, not the freedom to live one's life as a responsible individual with the freedom to believe as one chooses, not the freedom to pursue happiness, not the freedom to produce and keep what one has produced as their property. What Catholicism means by freedom, is freedom to be a Catholic, in obedience to the dictates of Rome.

The Intentions Made Plain

The following is from the book Revolution and Counter-Revolution:

"B. Catholic Culture and Civilization

"Therefore, the ideal of the Counter-Revolution is to restore and promote Catholic culture and civilization. This theme would not be sufficiently enunciated if it did not contain a definition of what we understand by Catholic culture and Catholic civilization. We realize that the terms civilization and culture are used in many different senses. Obviously, it is not our intention here to take a position on a question of terminology. We limit ourselves to using these words as relatively precise labels to indicate certain realities. We are more concerned with providing a sound idea of these realities than with debating terminology.

"A soul in the state of grace possesses all virtues to a greater or lesser degree. Illuminated by faith, it has the elements to form the only true vision of the universe.

"The fundamental element of Catholic culture is the vision of the universe elaborated according to the doctrine of the Church. This culture includes not only the learning, that is, the possession of the information needed for such an elaboration, but also the analysis and coordination of this information according to Catholic doctrine. This culture is not restricted to the theological, philosophical, or scientific field, but encompasses the breadth of human knowledge; it is reflected in the arts and implies the affirmation of values that permeate all aspects of life.

"Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church.

Got that? "Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church." The other name for this is called "totalitarianism," the complete rule of every aspect of life.

This book and WEB sites like that where it is found are spreading like wildfire. These people do not believe the hope of America is the restoration of the liberties the founders sought to guarantee, these people believe the only hope for America is Fatima. Really!

In Their Own Words

The following is from the site, "RealCatholicTV." It is a plain call for a "benevolent dictatorship, a Catholic monarch;" their own words. They even suggest that when the "Lord's Payer," is recited, it is just such a Catholic dictatorship that is being prayed for.

[View video in original here or on Youtube. Will not show in FR.]

Two Comments

First, in this country, freedom of speech means that anyone may express any view no matter how much anyone else disagrees with that view, or is offended by it. I totally defend that meaning of freedom of speech.

This is what Catholics believe, and quite frankly, I do not see how any consistent Catholic could disagree with it, though I suspect some may. I have no objection to their promoting those views, because it is what they believe. Quite frankly I am delighted they are expressing them openly. For one thing, it makes it much easier to understand Catholic dialog, and what they mean by the words they use.

Secondly, I think if their views were actually implemented, it would mean the end true freedom, of course, but I do not believe there is any such danger.

—Reginald Firehammer (06/28/10)


TOPICS: Activism; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: individualliberty
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To: OLD REGGIE

The Greek word katholikos(”universal” or “general”)pertained to those of one belief,not many divided beliefs in the time period of the Church Fathers,thus makes no difference weather it’s a small “k” or capitol “K”. The Arians and other heretics were condemned for NOT following the katholikos or “K”atholikos Church teaching.


8,851 posted on 10/05/2010 3:50:31 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Keep thinking alone those lines. God willing, the truth will become even more evident.

Oh, you mean, take YOUR interpretation of the Bible, take YOUR interpretation over the magesterium of the Catholic Church?

Not likely.

8,852 posted on 10/05/2010 3:50:54 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Natural Law; Dr. Eckleburg
When Catholics cite Scripture and original intent

And how do Catholics KNOW it is the ORIGINAL intent?

It is by faith alone ... faith in a man called pa pa

8,853 posted on 10/05/2010 3:53:19 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: OLD REGGIE
" Saint Augustine are used selectively by the Catholic Church are you?"

Are you suggesting that Augustine was adding to the Revealed Word and should have been taken without question?

8,854 posted on 10/05/2010 3:54:54 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: Natural Law

OReg was wrong about Augustine and solo scripture.

Here is a repost of my response to OReg

From Blessed Augustine...
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102054.htm

As to those other things which we hold on the authority, NOT of Scripture, but of TRADITION, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord’s passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established.


8,855 posted on 10/05/2010 3:56:57 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: RnMomof7
"And how do Catholics KNOW it is the ORIGINAL intent?"

We know from the Holy Spirit through Apostolic Tradition. How deficient a church must be to not have this and be forced to rely on the likes of French shysters and fat ex-priests.

8,856 posted on 10/05/2010 3:57:20 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: editor-surveyor
> “the ones who believe that they’re saved, for instance, based upon what?”

. Only a Catholic could have such a question! Based on the promises in God’s word, and the assurance that the Holy Spirit gives us.

The only assurance that God gives us is conditional. He promises the offering of His Grace to all men, He wishes all men to be saved, and yet even with the Grace that He gives to us, some men reject that inheritance (aka Prodigal Son) and never return. Those who spurn salvation and the conditions attached, are not saved. We must be righteous to Him, as righteous as our human selves assisted by the Spirit can be.

Matthew 21:. 33 26 "Hear another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, 27 put a hedge around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a tower. Then he leased it to tenants and went on a journey. 34 When vintage time drew near, he sent his servants 28 to the tenants to obtain his produce. 35 But the tenants seized the servants and one they beat, another they killed, and a third they stoned. 36 Again he sent other servants, more numerous than the first ones, but they treated them in the same way. 37 Finally, he sent his son to them, thinking, 'They will respect my son.' 38 29 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and acquire his inheritance.' 39 30 They seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 What will the owner of the vineyard do to those tenants when he comes?" 41 They answered 31 him, "He will put those wretched men to a wretched death and lease his vineyard to other tenants who will give him the produce at the proper times."

If we do not give God the produce that He demands, we will suffer an eternal wretched death.

Acts 18: 5 When Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began to occupy himself totally with preaching the word, testifying to the Jews that the Messiah was Jesus. 6 When they opposed him and reviled him, he shook out his garments 2 and said to them, "Your blood be on your heads! I am clear of responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

Acts 13: 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and with violent abuse contradicted what Paul said. 46 Both Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first, but since you reject it and condemn yourselves as unworthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 12

Acts 26:17 I shall deliver you from this people and from the Gentiles to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes 5 that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may obtain forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been consecrated by faith in me.' 19 "And so, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. 20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.

Matthew 7: 1 1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, 4 or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for a loaf of bread, 5 10 or a snake when he asks for a fish? 11 If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him. 12 6 "Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.

If you are wicked and spurn God, you will be spurned by Him at your Judgement.

Matthew 26: 31 14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Nothing here about assurance of salvation or OSAS or the mythical selected elite elect. Just the final Judgement of all men and the criteria that they will be Judged by.

8,857 posted on 10/05/2010 3:59:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
"catholic" was used as an adjective, not a proper noun.

I'm in a snarky mood today, we had to put our chief cat to sleep on Sunday, it's cold outside and what I really want to do is kick someone until he's down and then kick him again. What a lovely person I am sometimes... bleh. Forgive me if I get rude here:

The Church grew up. I am the same person I was 40 years ago but I do things I could not do then, I don't look like what I looked like then, I understand things in ways I didn't understand them then... I grew up. In the same way there are many things about our own nation that are different than they were 200 years ago, many things people would like to change and while we may say "This is not the America I grew up in" that doesn't mean there's some other America somewhere else or that we can divorce ourselves from our country and go start another one while claiming to be "real America"(tm).

People complain "oh, the early Church did this or the early Church did that"... well, yeah, and I used to need a diaper and I used to need training wheels and I used to need permission to cross the street and on and on and on. That certainly doesn't mean that the early Church was defective and now we've arrived anymore than it means that there was something wrong with me when I was two or three or nine or fifteen... It just means I did what was appropriate to my own development.

The Church has to develop, always under the direction of God. Should we bust up large congregations and meet in secret because conditions dictated that for the early Church? Should each town only have one congregation because that's the way they did it then? I don't know how you reconcile the two ways of doing things to current conditions though...

But beyond that: when you're the only game in town you refer to yourself (and others refer to you) in a generic sense. In a small town, "he's the doctor". When an herbalist moves into town and starts saying "I'm a doctor too" people may well say "no, he is the Doctor, we don't know what the heck you are... witch." "Call the Doctor" becomes a definite distinction meant to exclude the new guy. "doc" may still be "doc" to his friends but whenever the new-age guru enters the conversation "doc" becomes "Doctor Smith... (and not the freaky hippie)".

8,858 posted on 10/05/2010 4:00:45 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: Legatus
"well, yeah, and I used to need a diaper and I used to need training wheels and I used to need permission to cross the street and on and on and on."

Yeah, well don't get too comfortable. It won't be that long before you need all of those things again.....

8,859 posted on 10/05/2010 4:04:51 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: Natural Law; Dr. Eckleburg
"...Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation".

Stated correctly the Bible never refers to "private interpretation" of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

8,860 posted on 10/05/2010 4:04:59 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: maryz; wagglebee
Me, I rejoice in goodness wherever I see it, and praise God for it.

You are an


8,861 posted on 10/05/2010 4:13:55 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Stated correctly the Bible never refers to "private interpretation" of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Hold it, hold it, hold it.

New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,


Thanks again to bible.cc

Consider the reference made.

8,862 posted on 10/05/2010 4:21:58 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: 1000 silverlings

INDEED.


8,863 posted on 10/05/2010 4:34:49 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: OLD REGGIE

LOL


8,864 posted on 10/05/2010 4:37:25 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: maryz; wagglebee; 1000 silverlings; metmom; boatbums; Quix; count-your-change; Alex Murphy; ...
I think it ties in with their absolute blind spot about love of neighbor: There is a hatred of humanity there which they imagine God, who is Love, shares.

How does "love your neighbor" or love your enemies 'apply in ones life? How does one live that out? Is it by mocking and slandering Protestants? Just asking..LOL

God is Love, yet He smote His Son on the cross with His wrath.

Do catholics understand God is not one dimensional but is a combination of attributes.. God is Holy, righteous, goodness, wisdom, sovereign, infinate , faithful, self sufficient, immutable, justice , wrath , and mercy Omnipresent , and omnipotent etc

When we try to limit God to one attribute, we steal His glory from Him.. For he is all in all

And to allow that God might "favor" anyone over them is unacceptable. Some of them insist on "equality" as if the U.S. Constitution is the ruling document in Heaven.

Huh? I have never met a saved man or woman that did not express amazement that God saved them, because they are nothing and have nothing to offer...

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Cr 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Cr 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Protestants I know actually have little interest in position in heaven... Sainthood is already theirs based on Christ .. not on their works. There will be some with greater rewards but the saints will know that the rewards ( crowns) are not REALLY THEIRS, they are Gods, for His work in them. And so we will give the rewards back to the one that ordained them..God

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things,
and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

8,865 posted on 10/05/2010 4:42:48 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Legatus
I'm in a snarky mood today, we had to put our chief cat to sleep on Sunday, it's cold outside and what I really want to do is kick someone until he's down and then kick him again.

Sorry to heat about your cat ,dear friend. I had one of those kind of nights last night when my 3 year Springer Spaniel- who thinks every small animal is a squirrel got blasted by a skunk at midnight when I let her out.I thus spent my night washing her outside in cold upstate NY to the wee hours of the morning .

I'm not hanging out on FR tonight for sure.

8,866 posted on 10/05/2010 4:43:01 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
By golly- I think you need to read more about Blessed Augustine rather than guessing at what he taught

From Blessed Augustine... http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102054.htm

As I said, you must be selective in which writings of Augustine. You can't make them dissapear by ignoring them.

8,867 posted on 10/05/2010 4:45:17 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Legatus; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Personally

I don’t believe that a clique of magicsterical political bureaucratic self-aggrandizing power mongers

makes it the least bit

LESS private an interpretation.

It just compounds the errors.


8,868 posted on 10/05/2010 4:46:02 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Natural Law

****There are at least 33,000 points of disagreement or there wouldn’t need to be 33,000 denominations, give or take.*****

Time to put that lie away

“Due to popular request and to the ongoing distortion of figures from uninformed Roman Catholic apologists writing on this issue, I am posting the following excerpt from my forthcoming book, Upon This Slippery Rock (Calvary Press, 2002).

Throughout this book we have examined the Roman Catholic apologist’s primary argument against sola Scriptura and Protestantism; namely, that sola Scriptura produces doctrinal anarchy as is witnessed in the 25,000 Protestant denominations extant today. We have all along assumed the soundness of the premise that in fact there are 25,000 Protestant denominations; and we have shown that—even if this figure is correct—the Roman Catholic argument falls to the ground since it compares apples to oranges. We have just one more little detail to address before we can close; namely, the correctness of the infamous 25,000-Protestant-denominations figure itself.

When this figure first surfaced among Roman Catholic apologists, it started at 20,000 Protestant denominations, grew to 23,000 Protestant denominations, then to 25,000 Protestant denominations. More recently, that figure has been inflated to 28,000, to over 32,000. These days, many Roman Catholic apologists feel content simply to calculate a daily rate of growth (based on their previous adherence to the original benchmark figure of 20,000) that they can then use as a basis for projecting just how many Protestant denominations there were, or will be, in any given year. But just where does this figure originate?

I have posed this question over and over again to many different Roman Catholic apologists, none of whom were able to verify the source with certainty. In most cases, one Roman Catholic apologist would claim he obtained the figure from another Roman Catholic apologist. When I would ask the latter Roman Catholic apologist about the figure, it was not uncommon for that apologist to point to the former apologist as his source for the figure, creating a circle with no actual beginning. I have long suspected that, whatever the source might be, the words “denomination” and “Protestant” were being defined in a way that most of us would reject.

I have only recently been able to locate the source of this figure. I say the source because in fact there is only one source that mentions this figure independently. All other secondary sources (to which Roman Catholics sometimes make appeal) ultimately cite the same original source. That source is David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982). This work is both comprehensive and painstakingly detailed; and its contents are quite enlightening. However, the reader who turns to this work for validation of the Roman Catholic 25,000-Protestant-denomination argument will be sadly disappointed. What follows is a synopsis of what Barrett’s work in this area really says.

First, Barrett, writing in 1982, does indeed cite a figure of 20,780 denominations in 1980, and projects that there would be as many as 22,190 denominations by 1985. This represents an increase of approximately 270 new denominations each year (Barrett, 17). What the Roman Catholic who cites this figure does not tell us (most likely because he does not know) is that most of these denominations are non-Protestant.

Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15): (1) Roman Catholicism, which accounts for 223 denominations; (2) Protestant, which accounts for 8,196 denominations; (3) Orthodox, which accounts for 580 denominations; (4) Non-White Indigenous, which accounts for 10,956 denominations; (5) Anglican, which accounts for 240 denominations; (6) Marginal Protestant, which includes Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, New Age groups, and all cults (Barrett, 14), and which accounts for 1,490 denominations; and (7) Catholic (Non-Roman), which accounts for 504 denominations.

According to Barrett’s calculations, there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism—not 25,000 as Roman Catholic apologists so cavalierly and carelessly claim. Barrett is also quick to point out that one cannot simply assume that this number will continue to grow each year; hence, the typical Roman Catholic projection of an annual increase in this number is simply not a given. Yet even this figure is misleading; for it is clear that Barrett defines “distinct denominations” as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group (such as the difference between a Baptist church that emphasizes hymns, and another Baptist church that emphasizes praise music).

No doubt the same Roman Catholic apologists who so gleefully cite the erroneous 25,000-denominations figure, and who might with just as much glee cite the revised 8,196-denominations figure, would reel at the notion that there might actually be 223 distinct denominations within Roman Catholicism! Yet that is precisely the number that Barrett cites for Roman Catholicism. Moreover, Barrett indicates in the case of Roman Catholicism that even this number can be broken down further to produce 2,942 separate “denominations”—and that was only in 1970! In that same year there were only 3,294 Protestant denominations; a difference of only 352 denominations. If we were to use the Roman Catholic apologist’s method to “project” a figure for the current day, we could no doubt postulate a number upwards of 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations today! Hence, if Roman Catholic apologists want to argue that Protestantism is splintered into 8,196 “bickering” denominations, then they must just as readily admit that their own ecclesial system is splintered into at least 2,942 bickering denominations (possibly as many as 8,000). If, on the other hand, they would rather claim that among those 2,942+ (perhaps 8,000?) Roman Catholic denominations there is “unity,” then they can have no objection to the notion that among the 8,196 Protestant denominations there is also unity.

In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy). As an example, Baptist denominations comprise approximately 321 of the total Protestant figure. Yet the lion’s share of Baptist denominations are independent, making them (in Barrett’s calculation) separate denominations. In other words, if there are ten Independent Baptist churches in a given city, even though all of them are identical in belief and practice, each one is counted as a separate denomination due to its autonomy in jurisdiction. This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations. And even beyond this, all Independent Baptist denominations are counted separately from all other Baptist denominations, even though there might not be a dime’s worth of difference among them. The same principle is operative in Barrett’s count of Roman Catholic denominations. He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.

However Barrett has defined “denomination,” it is clear that he does not think of these as major distinctions; for that is something he reserves for another category. In addition to the seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” (mentioned above), Barrett breaks down each of these traditions into smaller units that might have significant differences (what he calls “major ecclesiastical traditions,” and what we might normally call a true denomination) (Barrett, 14). Referring again to our seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” (mentioned above, but this time in reverse order): For (1) Catholic (Non-Roman), there are four traditions, including Catholic Apostolic, Reformed Catholic, Old Catholic, and Conservative Catholic; for (2) Marginal Protestants, there are six traditions; for (3) Anglican, there are six traditions; for (4) Non-White Indigenous, which encompasses third-world peoples (among whom can be found traces of Christianity mixed with the major tenets of their indigenous pagan religions), there are twenty traditions, including a branch of Reformed Catholic and a branch of Conservative Catholic; for (5) Orthodox, there are nineteen traditions; for (6) Protestant, there are twenty-one traditions; and for (7) Roman Catholic, there are sixteen traditions, including Latin-rite local, Latin-rite catholic, Latin/Eastern-rite local, Latin/Eastern-rite catholic, Syro-Malabarese, Ukrainian, Romanian, Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean, Ruthenian, Hungarian, plural Oriental rites, Syro-Malankarese, Slovak, and Coptic. It is important to note here that Barrett places these sixteen Roman Catholic traditions (i.e., true denominations) on the very same level as the twenty-one Protestant traditions (i.e., true denominations). In other words, the true count of real denominations within Protestantism is twenty-one, whereas the true count of real denominations within Roman Catholic is sixteen. Combined with the other major ecclesiastical blocs, that puts the total number of actual denominations in the world at ninety-two—obviously nowhere near the 23,000 or 25,000 figure that Roman Catholic apologists constantly assert—and that figure of ninety-two denominations includes the sixteen denominations of Roman Catholicism (Barrett, 15)! Barrett goes on to note that this figure includes all denominations with a membership of over 100,000. There are an additional sixty-four denominations worldwide, distributed among the seven major ecclesiastical blocs.

As we have shown, the larger figures mentioned earlier (8,196 Protestant denominations and perhaps as many as 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations) are based on jurisdiction rather than differing beliefs and practice. Obviously, neither of those figures represents a true denominational distinction. Hence, Barrett’s broader category (which we have labeled true denominations) of twenty-one Protestant denominations and sixteen Roman Catholic denominations represents a much more realistic calculation.

Moreover, Barrett later compares Roman Catholicism to Evangelicalism, which is a considerably smaller subset of Protestantism (so far as the number of denominations is concerned), and which is really the true category for those who hold to sola Scriptura (most Protestant denominations today, being liberal denominations and thereby dismissing the authority of the Bible, do not hold to sola Scriptura, except perhaps as a formality). Any comparison that the Roman Catholic apologist would like to make between sola Scriptura as the guiding principle of authority, and Rome as the guiding principle of authority (which we have demonstrated earlier is a false comparison in any case), needs to compare true sola Scriptura churches (i.e., Evangelicals) to Rome, rather than all Protestant churches to Rome. An Evangelical, as defined by Barrett, is someone who is characterized by (1) a personal conversion experience, (2) a reliance upon the Bible as the sole basis for faith and living, (3) an emphasis on evangelism, and (4) a conservative theology (Barrett, 71). Interestingly, when discussing Evangelicals Barrett provides no breakdown, but rather treats them as one homogeneous group. However, when he addresses Roman Catholics on the very same page, he breaks them down into four major groups: (1) Catholic Pentecostals (Roman Catholics involved in the organized Catholic Charismatic Renewal); (2) Christo-Pagans (Latin American Roman Catholics who combine folk-Catholicism with traditional Amerindian paganism); (3) Evangelical Catholics (Roman Catholics who also regard themselves as Evangelicals); and (4) Spiritist Catholics (Roman Catholics who are active in organized high or low spiritism, including syncretistic spirit-possession cults). And of course, we all know that this list can be supplemented by distinctions between moderate Roman Catholics (represented by almost all Roman Catholic scholars), Conservative Roman Catholics (represented by Scott Hahn and most Roman Catholic apologists), Traditionalist Roman Catholics (represented by apologist Gerry Matatics), and Sedevacantist Roman Catholics (those who believe the chair of Peter is currently vacant).

In any case, once we inquire into the source of the infamous 25,000-Protestant-denomination figure one point becomes crystal clear. Whenever and at whatever point Barrett compares true denominations and differences among either Protestants or Evangelicals to those of Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholicism emerges almost as splintered as Protestantism, and even more splintered than Evangelicalism. That levels the playing field significantly. Whatever charge of “doctrinal chaos” Roman Catholic apologists wish to level against Protestantism may be leveled with equal force—and perhaps even greater force—against the doctrinal chaos of Roman Catholicism. Obviously, the Roman Catholic apologist can take little comfort in the fact that he has only sixteen denominations while Protestantism has twenty-one; and he can take even less comfort in the fact that while Evangelicalism has no divisional breakdown, Roman Catholicism has at least four major divisions.

If the Roman Catholic apologist wants instead to cite 8,196 idiosyncrasies within Protestantism, then he must be willing to compare that figure to at least 2,942 (perhaps upwards of 8,000 these days) idiosyncrasies within Roman Catholicism. In any case, he cannot compare the one ecclesial tradition of Roman Catholicism to 25,000, 8,196, or even twenty-one Protestant denominations; for Barrett places Roman Catholicism (as a single ecclesial tradition) on the same level as Protestantism (as a single ecclesial tradition).

In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly—and, as a result, irresponsibly—glanced at Barrett’s work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded. One can only hope that, upon reading this critique, Roman Catholic apologists will finally put this argument to bed. The more likely scenario, however, is that the death of this argument will come about only when Evangelicals consistently point out this error—and correct it—each time it is raised by a Roman Catholic apologist. Sooner or later they will grow weary of the embarrassment that accompanies citing erroneous figures in a public forum.”
Eric Svendsen


8,869 posted on 10/05/2010 4:50:15 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
"God is Love, yet He smote His Son on the cross with His wrath."

What bizarre theology is this from? Do you really believe that God punished Jesus out of vengeful anger or indignation? God does not sin and wrath is one of the seven "deadly" sins along with pride, avarice, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth.

This Calvin stuff gets weirder and weirder and less and less Christian the more I see of it.

8,870 posted on 10/05/2010 4:53:03 PM PDT by Natural Law (A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. A liar is the one who tells it.)
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To: Pyro7480
The belief in the bodily assumption of Mary was far from unanimous either in the East or the West.

Oh, is that why it was commemorated liturgically for centuries in both East and West?

For how many centuries prior to 1950? When and where?

8,871 posted on 10/05/2010 4:58:08 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Legatus

****I’m in a snarky mood today, we had to put our chief cat to sleep on Sunday, it’s cold outside and what I really want to do is kick someone until he’s down and then kick him again. What a lovely person I am sometimes..****

ohhh I am so sorry, we had an 18 year old cat die a few years ago, and he is still in my heart.. It is especially hard when we have to make the decision .. I have had to do that as well

There are many Christians that believe our pets will meet us in heaven

Christian scholars Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Dr. Andrew Linzey, St. Francis of Assisi, Dr. Albert Schweitzer , the late Pope John Paul 11 and many others, support the belief that animals have souls and a place in Heaven.

“Be thou comforted, little dog, Thou too in Resurrection shall have a little golden tail,” –Martin Luther

Pope John Paul II loved all animals, being the first pope
to proclaim that “the animals possess a soul and men
must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren”,
and that animals are “fruit of the creative action of the
Holy Spirit and merit respect” and are “as near to God
as men are”.


8,872 posted on 10/05/2010 5:02:16 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Natural Law
"Wadaya know! I just used the Google Translator and it translates "alter" to "the other"."

Terms used by the Catholic Church mean what the Catholic Church says they mean. Its called contextual. Since we all know what a firm theological grounding Google translators have the only thing you proved is how gullible some can be when they so desperately want to prove something that isn't.

Now, Professor, I suggest you actually study the Latin Vulgate and Catholic theology to understand both. I'm not saying you have to believe any of it, but at least you will get your definitions right enough to hold an intelligent conversation.

"Terms used by the Catholic Church mean what the Catholic Church says they mean."

LOL. That says it all. Now show me the OFFICIAL definition of "alter Christus".

8,873 posted on 10/05/2010 5:07:28 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: RnMomof7

How about a web link?


8,874 posted on 10/05/2010 5:12:32 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Legatus
I really haven't understood what the deal was, "in persona Christe" means "in the person of Christ", "alter Christe" means practically the same thing..

They don't mean nearly the same thing.

To go to the extreme and define it beyond how the Church intends it though is wrong, but that's never stopped anyone before.

You'll understand I am skeptical of accepting the definition of a few anomymous FR posters. I will accept; however, an official definition by the Catholic Church.

8,875 posted on 10/05/2010 5:13:47 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Natural Law
What bizarre theology is this from? Do you really believe that God punished Jesus out of vengeful anger or indignation? God does not sin and wrath is one of the seven "deadly" sins along with pride, avarice, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth.

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen [men] of Israel.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him..

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth

God has RIGHTEOUS ANGER AND RIGHTEOUS WRATH to deny that is to deny His Holiness and His hatred of sin

This Calvin stuff gets weirder and weirder and less and less Christian the more I see of it.

God poured out His wrath on Christ who was the propitiation for the sin of men ... and he will pour it out again on all those that do not repent and believe that .

8,876 posted on 10/05/2010 5:15:40 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: count-your-change
Who ya gonna trust? Some poster or Google Translator and those Merriam-Webster folks?

I used google and a 60 year old Latin dictionary. :-)

I am truly willing to accept an "official" explanation of the Catholic Church. Sadly, there is none.

8,877 posted on 10/05/2010 5:19:31 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Judith Anne

The original link is gone..I had saved this years ago

but this one seems to have the same info

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/19106.htm


8,878 posted on 10/05/2010 5:20:09 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: OLD REGGIE
Wadaya know! I just used the Google Translator and it translates "alter" to "the other".

Here is the issue, if Rome says something Catholics just say "yea thats right"

On the other hand.. the Protestants say.. lets look at it to see if its true.. truth means something

8,879 posted on 10/05/2010 5:24:26 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Legatus
Yeah, that’s interesting:
................
Thanks to bible.cc

Thanks. I'm still looking for the version which says "a second Christ".

8,880 posted on 10/05/2010 5:28:23 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Natural Law
Isn't Christ omnipresent? What about Matthew 18:20; "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

"...in their midst."

8,881 posted on 10/05/2010 5:32:02 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: MarkBsnr
Constantine added to the Church after his death? Quite a feat. Do you claim deity, perhaps equality with God, with this as a proof?

Do you have a degree in Asininity?

8,882 posted on 10/05/2010 5:36:20 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: stfassisi
The Greek word katholikos(”universal” or “general”)pertained to those of one belief,not many divided beliefs in the time period of the Church Fathers,thus makes no difference weather it’s a small “k” or capitol “K”. The Arians and other heretics were condemned for NOT following the katholikos or “K”atholikos Church teaching.

It is an adjective, not a Proper noun.

8,883 posted on 10/05/2010 5:43:06 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: stfassisi
The Greek word katholikos(”universal” or “general”)pertained to those of one belief,not many divided beliefs in the time period of the Church Fathers,thus makes no difference weather it’s a small “k” or capitol “K”. The Arians and other heretics were condemned for NOT following the katholikos or “K”atholikos Church teaching.

It is an adjective, not a Proper noun.

8,884 posted on 10/05/2010 5:43:38 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Natural Law
Are you suggesting that Augustine was adding to the Revealed Word and should have been taken without question?

Are you suggesting that your selective selection of Augustine's writing ads to the revealed word?

8,885 posted on 10/05/2010 5:46:37 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Legatus

Pure baloney.


8,886 posted on 10/05/2010 5:49:14 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Quix
You know, these characterizations really aren't helpful...
"clique of magicsterical political bureaucratic self-aggrandizing power mongers"

As opposed to:

"coven of hysterical, know-nothing, self-important, self-righteous protesters"?

The only thing that's preventing me from responding to the use of the term "Rabid Cliques" with "Harpies for Jesus" is a sense that it would be personally insulting. Oh sure, there might be a lot of people giggling uncontrollably if I wrote "Calvinista Cockroaches", "Calvin's Corgies", "Calvinihuahuas", "Reformed Rutabagas", "Cranks for Calvin", "Luther's Losers", "Hell's Nags and Affiliated Cows", “Brides of Calvinstein”, “Jezebel’s Understudies” or "Horse of Babble-on"... give me some time I could come up with some great ones... but it would STILL be mean-spirited, counterproductive and nasty.

My neighbor just gave me a 100ml bottle of whiskey in honor of my dead cat. My wife is hiccuping just from sniffing the bottle, smells like aftershave to me... probably tastes like Calvin's catbox (you know where I'm going with this now don't you?) which is where most of the "reformed" doctrines around here seem to have originated.

8,887 posted on 10/05/2010 5:52:00 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Constantine added to the Church after his death? Quite a feat. Do you claim deity, perhaps equality with God, with this as a proof?

Do you have a degree in Asininity?

Nope, I'm not that OLD, REGGIE. :)

8,888 posted on 10/05/2010 5:52:57 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Do you have a degree in Asininity?

Are you still offering advanced courses?

8,889 posted on 10/05/2010 5:55:12 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: Legatus
Stated correctly the Bible never refers to "private interpretation" of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Hold it, hold it, hold it.

Are you aware of the difference between "private interpretation of Scripture" and the private interpretation of "prophesy"?

8,890 posted on 10/05/2010 5:55:27 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Legatus; Quix
My neighbor just gave me a 100ml bottle of whiskey in honor of my dead cat. My wife is hiccuping just from sniffing the bottle, smells like aftershave to me... probably tastes like Calvin's catbox (you know where I'm going with this now don't you?) which is where most of the "reformed" doctrines around here seem to have originated.

But you must remember that Quix is not Reformed in any manner; he is professed Pentecostal. It is in their antiCatholic beliefs that they are fellow travellers...

8,891 posted on 10/05/2010 5:56:26 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Legatus

ROFL!


8,892 posted on 10/05/2010 5:57:09 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Pure baloney.

O WOW O R. That's some mighty fine repartee right there. Keep sharpening that sledgehammer.

8,893 posted on 10/05/2010 5:58:52 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Are you aware of the difference between "private interpretation of Scripture" and the private interpretation of "prophesy"?

Good grief. Why not just start throwing words together randomly and see if the other side will argue about them, is that what's going on in your posts?

8,894 posted on 10/05/2010 6:07:52 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Few of us will ever have the time or opportunity to be scholars of ancient languages so it really surprises me that the many works of those that have are so regularly ignored when trying to understand the meaning of words of such an important book as the Bible.

“I used google and a 60 year old Latin dictionary. :-)”

Yep, save them old books, they grow in value by the year. (and Latin hasn't changed in the past 60 years)

8,895 posted on 10/05/2010 6:16:31 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Legatus; kosta50
Good grief. Why not just start throwing words together randomly and see if the other side will argue about them, is that what's going on in your posts?

Hmm, shades of Kosta's Reformed Random Verse Generator with which so many nonsensical Reformed proofs are presented.

8,896 posted on 10/05/2010 6:17:59 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Legatus

Actually, I’m in favor of whatever label you prayerfully think is true.

Christ called the religious magicsterical 2000 years ago a brood of vipers; white washed tombs; sons of satan etc.

Telling it as perceived/like it is at least has a chance to get folks thinking . . . and possibly praying.


8,897 posted on 10/05/2010 6:33:41 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MarkBsnr

A lot of words to prove what I already suspected:

That you do not understand the assurance of salvation that the Lord’s elect do. Those that are his own know without a doubt that they are; the Holy Spirit assures us daily, hourly, momentarily.

Your question to which I replied had already told me that it’s author did not know our Lord. (a chilling revelation to be sure)

Posting more words for which your understanding is lacking will not cause us to trade places.
.


8,898 posted on 10/05/2010 7:17:59 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Obamacare is America's kristallnacht !!)
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To: stfassisi

> “I thus spent my night washing her outside in cold upstate NY to the wee hours of the morning...”

.
A suggestion:

Keep a gallon of distilled white vinegar and a large spray bottle on hand for the next time this emergency comes along.

Better for you, better for the dog. It’ll all be over in 10 minutes, and you can get your sleep.


8,899 posted on 10/05/2010 7:33:57 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Obamacare is America's kristallnacht !!)
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To: editor-surveyor
A lot of words to prove what I already suspected:

That you do not understand the assurance of salvation that the Lord’s elect do. Those that are his own know without a doubt that they are; the Holy Spirit assures us daily, hourly, momentarily.

That is not the Holy Spirit. Even you Paulians (I hope) have kept enough Scripture to understand that St. Paul instructs us to run the race through to the end and that we will be Judged.

Romans 10: 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 4 or 'Who will go down into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 9 for, if you confess 5 with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11 For the scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. 13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Will be saved upon condition. Not is guaranteed saved. Persevere until the end; no guarantee of your salvation. God guarantees that He will offer salvation. He guarantees our inheritance. No guarantee that we will collect until the end.

Your question to which I replied had already told me that it’s author did not know our Lord. (a chilling revelation to be sure)

How puerile. Or soap opera.

Do you profess the Nicene Creed which is a basic requirement for Christianity? What is the first profession? The second? The third?

Posting more words for which your understanding is lacking will not cause us to trade places.

I cannot trade places with such as you since I have Christian belief and will not give it up.

8,900 posted on 10/05/2010 7:35:44 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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