Skip to comments.Guadalupe: A Living Image (EWTN - Sunday, Sep. 26 at 10 pm) [Catholic Caucus]
Posted on 09/26/2010 4:38:10 PM PDT by NYer
Guadalupe: A Living Image
Sun. September 26 at 10 PM ET, Tue. September 28 at 1 PM ET & Thu. September 30 at 5 AM ET
Msgr. Eduardo Chavez, postulator of the cause for canonization of St. Juan Diego, discusses the importance of the Nican Mopohua, a document that presents the original authentic history of the Miracle of Guadalupe.
Narrative of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe
Appearance of the Virgin of Guadalupe
The Nican Mopohua is considered a kind of “gospel” of Mexico, and reports on how the Virgin of Guadalupe in 1531, about ten years after the conquest of Tenochtitlán (Aztec capital), on Mount Tepeyac, where formerly a temple of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin was, on 9, 10 and 12 appeared four times in December the Aztecs baptized Juan Diego (1474-1548).
The phenomenon, which is called the Virgin of Guadalupe, Juan Diego first appeared on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, 9 December 1531, when this was on the way to Holy Mass and told him to instruct the bishop Zumárraga to build a church in her honor on Tepeyac hill to the north of present-day Mexico City. The bishop, however, believed the words of Juan Diego and asked him not to request the appearance of a character. The appearance to Juan Diego was on the summit of the hill to get there to pick flowers and roses, which grew normally at this point, and left him in his tilma (cloak) lay. When Juan Diego before Zumárraga Bishop and several other witnesses opened his tilma appeared, while the strongly scented flowers fell to the ground, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe imprinted on the tilma.
Just caught the promotional clip on EWTN. Apparently, this program will also cover how astronomers have also lent credence to the tilma. Should be interesting.
Do you know if they will be streaming it?
I’m so glad I found this! We have no cable.
I never have understood why her image is in all of the taverns, cat houses. I heard a Jewish businessman tell me in Acapulco before the gal ‘turned her trick’, she crossed herself and asked the Virgin to help. Funny, I went to Medellin Spain, turns out Hernan Cortez also was fond as he was baptized in the Virgin of Guadalupe Cathedral in Spain. Wasn’t so much a Mexican miracle. It was 1542 that Cortez got bit by a scorpion and he said the Virgen in Medellin heard his cry and saved his life. He went back to Spain and gave her 60 lbs. of sterling silver, and a gold scorpion with emeralds... Juan Diego looks more like Hernan Cortez, never heard of an INDIAN Mexican with hair on the chin. But, people will believe what ever they are told.
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Not told ... actually seen.
According to many scientists who have inspected the image, it seems that in her eyes, in both of them and in the precise location as reflected by a live human eye, could be seen many figures that have been extensively analyzed and seem to correspond to the shape and size of human figures located in front of the image.
In 1929, Alfonso Marcue, who was the official photographer of the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, found what seemed to him to be a clear image of a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin. Initially he did not believe what was before his eyes. How could it be? A bearded man inside of the eyes of the Virgin?. After many inspections of many of his black and white photographs he had no doubts and decided to inform the authorities of the Basilica. He was told that time to keep complete silence about the discovery, which he did.
More than 20 years later, on May 29, 1951, Jose Carlos Salinas Chavez, examining a good photograph of the face, rediscovers the image of what clearly appears to be a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin, and locates it on the left eye too.
The first one, on March 27, 1956, was Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno, MDS, a prestigious ophthalmologist. In what is the first report on the eyes of the image issued by a physician, he certifies what seems to be the presence of the triple reflection (Samson-Purkinje effect) characteristic of all live human eyes and states that the resulting images are located exactly where they are supossed to be according to such effect, and also that the distortion of the images agree with the curvature of the cornea.
The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely "alive" when examined.
Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.
“The appearance to Juan Diego was on the summit of the hill to get there to pick flowers and roses, which grew normally at this point, and left him in his tilma (cloak) lay.”
Machine translation, right?
Anybody know where there is a large, high-resolution image of the tilma itself?
**Anybody know where there is a large, high-resolution image of the tilma itself?**
In Mexico City — the real thing!
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On July 1st, 1995, I visited THE Virgen of Guadalupe in Medellin, Extremadura, SPAIN, the one that CORTEZ introduced to Mexico, we asked the priest when the ‘last miracle’ was performed. He laughed. He said it’s not real. Sorry, people see UFO’S and believe in them, others the tooth fairy. Believe what you want.
Even with the proof of scientists in some of the links above?
“In Mexico City the real thing!”
Hey, not nice. I can’t go to Mexico City.
“On July 1st, 1995, I visited THE Virgen of Guadalupe in Medellin, Extremadura, SPAIN, the one that CORTEZ introduced to Mexico”
So, are you under the impression that the one in Spain somehow *outranks* the one in Mexico?
“we asked the priest when the last miracle was performed. He laughed. He said its not real.”
It’s a sad thing, but some of the enemies of the Church are clergy. A priest who has no faith like that remains a priest only to attack the faith of others.
“Sorry, people see UFOS and believe in them, others the tooth fairy.”
Really? You have heard a rational, sober adult advance a serious claim to have seen the tooth fairy? I think you’re engaging in hyperbole. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but in this case your logic is seriously faulty.
The only syllogism one can derive from that sentence is, “People sometimes claim to have seen things that don’t exist. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.”
Let me pose a couple of questions.
If there were a God, capable of creating the universe, all that is seen and unseen, wouldn’t He be capable of devising some means to communicate His existence to His creatures? And to communicate it unmistakeably, beyond confusion with delusion or hallucination, in such a way that rationality wouldn’t allow the communication to be dismissed?
If that were true, what would one expect to see? (This is just off the cuff here; it’s not meant to be exhaustive.)
1. Multiple reports of such experiences.
2. Commonalities and similarities among these reports.
3. Consistency with what we already know of God.
4. The communication during these reported experiences of information that was not or could not have been obtained through ordinary means.
5. A remarkable lack of anger or indignation when the communicatee is mocked or accused of lying and insanity. (This would be rare, at least in the West today, as most people who have had such experiences do not choose to discuss them with skeptics.)
Skeptics often assert that, because no human being can prove the existence of God to them, God’s non-existence is proved.
They seem not to consider that God can demonstrate His own existence to anyone He chooses, or that rejecting that assertion without sufficient examination is no more scientific or rational than belief in the Tooth Fairy.
“Believe what you want.”
You may believe what you want, if that suits you. Rational, intelligent, educated adults try to believe what experience and knowledge show to be true.
In “Orthodoxy,” G. K. Chesterton wrote, “If I am asked, as a purely intellectual question, why I believe in Christianity, I can only answer, ‘For the same reason that an intelligent agnostic disbelieves in Christianity.’ I believe in it quite rationally upon the evidence. But the evidence in my case, as in that of the intelligent agnostic, is not really in this or that alleged demonstration; it is in an enormous accumulation of small but unanimous facts...I can only say that my evidences for Christianity are of the same vivid but varied kind as his evidences against it. For when I look at these various anti-Christian truths, I simply discover that none of them are true. I discover that the true tide and force of all the facts flows the other way. Let us take cases...”
G. K. Chesterton’s writings are available for download at no cost.
BTW, this is the statue that was reportedly carved by St Luke and is now housed in Guadalupe, Spain.
Thank you mark for tracking down an image of that statue. It truly adds to the thread for those who watched the program.
Truth is often lost in poor translation. The priest was probably indicating that this particular image is not the real one. The authentic image is in Mexico. That is the AUTHENTIC image.
Rovenstinez, did you watch the program? It was filled with scientific facts.
Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Americas, Puhleeze pray for us.
“Truth is often lost in poor translation.”
Now *that’s* one of the truest propositions you’re likely to trip over in this life. As we see on line, truth is often lost even when both parties are native speakers of English.