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Guadalupe: A Living Image (EWTN - Sunday, Sep. 26 at 10 pm) [Catholic Caucus]
EWTN ^ | September 26, 2010

Posted on 09/26/2010 4:38:10 PM PDT by NYer

Guadalupe: A Living Image

Sun. September 26 at 10 PM ET, Tue. September 28 at 1 PM ET & Thu. September 30 at 5 AM ET

Msgr. Eduardo Chavez, postulator of the cause for canonization of St. Juan Diego, discusses the importance of the Nican Mopohua, a document that presents the original authentic history of the Miracle of Guadalupe.


Narrative of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe

Appearance of the Virgin of Guadalupe

The Nican Mopohua is considered a kind of “gospel” of Mexico, and reports on how the Virgin of Guadalupe in 1531, about ten years after the conquest of Tenochtitlán (Aztec capital), on Mount Tepeyac, where formerly a temple of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin was, on 9, 10 and 12 appeared four times in December the Aztecs baptized Juan Diego (1474-1548).

The phenomenon, which is called the Virgin of Guadalupe, Juan Diego first appeared on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, 9 December 1531, when this was on the way to Holy Mass and told him to instruct the bishop Zumárraga to build a church in her honor on Tepeyac hill to the north of present-day Mexico City. The bishop, however, believed the words of Juan Diego and asked him not to request the appearance of a character. The appearance to Juan Diego was on the summit of the hill to get there to pick flowers and roses, which grew normally at this point, and left him in his tilma (cloak) lay. When Juan Diego before Zumárraga Bishop and several other witnesses opened his tilma appeared, while the strongly scented flowers fell to the ground, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe imprinted on the tilma.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: guadalupe

1 posted on 09/26/2010 4:38:13 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Just caught the promotional clip on EWTN. Apparently, this program will also cover how astronomers have also lent credence to the tilma. Should be interesting.


2 posted on 09/26/2010 4:39:38 PM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: NYer

Do you know if they will be streaming it?

http://www.ewtn.com/newMediaPlayer/mediaplayer300.htm

I’m so glad I found this! We have no cable.


3 posted on 09/26/2010 4:46:03 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am inyenzi on the Religion Forum)
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To: NYer

I never have understood why her image is in all of the taverns, cat houses. I heard a Jewish businessman tell me in Acapulco before the gal ‘turned her trick’, she crossed herself and asked the Virgin to help. Funny, I went to Medellin Spain, turns out Hernan Cortez also was fond as he was baptized in the Virgin of Guadalupe Cathedral in Spain. Wasn’t so much a Mexican miracle. It was 1542 that Cortez got bit by a scorpion and he said the Virgen in Medellin heard his cry and saved his life. He went back to Spain and gave her 60 lbs. of sterling silver, and a gold scorpion with emeralds... Juan Diego looks more like Hernan Cortez, never heard of an INDIAN Mexican with hair on the chin. But, people will believe what ever they are told.


4 posted on 09/26/2010 4:50:47 PM PDT by rovenstinez (,)
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To: NYer; Celtic Cross; Grizzled Bear; ScoopAmma; Irisshlass; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

5 posted on 09/26/2010 4:58:14 PM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: rovenstinez

Are you Catholic?


6 posted on 09/26/2010 4:59:10 PM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: netmilsmom

Yes ... you can always watch EWTN via their website.


7 posted on 09/26/2010 5:12:24 PM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: rovenstinez
Juan Diego looks more like Hernan Cortez, never heard of an INDIAN Mexican with hair on the chin. But, people will believe what ever they are told.

Not told ... actually seen.

According to many scientists who have inspected the image, it seems that in her eyes, in both of them and in the precise location as reflected by a live human eye, could be seen many figures that have been extensively analyzed and seem to correspond to the shape and size of human figures located in front of the image.

In 1929, Alfonso Marcue, who was the official photographer of the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, found what seemed to him to be a clear image of a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin. Initially he did not believe what was before his eyes. How could it be? A bearded man inside of the eyes of the Virgin?. After many inspections of many of his black and white photographs he had no doubts and decided to inform the authorities of the Basilica. He was told that time to keep complete silence about the discovery, which he did.
More than 20 years later, on May 29, 1951, Jose Carlos Salinas Chavez, examining a good photograph of the face, rediscovers the image of what clearly appears to be a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin, and locates it on the left eye too.

Our Lady of Guadalupe Image. Detail of the right eye showing a "bearded man"
"Bearded man".
Since then, many people had the opportunity to inspect closely the eyes of the Virgin on the tilma, including more than 20 physicians, ophthalmologists.
The first one, on March 27, 1956, was Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno, MDS, a prestigious ophthalmologist. In what is the first report on the eyes of the image issued by a physician, he certifies what seems to be the presence of the triple reflection (Samson-Purkinje effect) characteristic of all live human eyes and states that the resulting images are located exactly where they are supossed to be according to such effect, and also that the distortion of the images agree with the curvature of the cornea.
The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely "alive" when examined.
Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.

Images found in the right eye of the Virgin on the tilma through digital analysis
According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family".
A new and interesting kind of analysis of the eyes started in 1979, when Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, graduated from Cornell University, while working in IBM scanned at very high resolutions a very good photograph, taken from the original, of the face on the tilma. After filtering and processing the digitized images of the eyes to eliminate "noise" and enhance them, he reports he made some astonishing discoveries: not only the "human bust" was clearly present in both eyes, but other human figures were seen as reflected in the eyes too.
The Mystery in Our Lady's eyes
8 posted on 09/26/2010 5:23:07 PM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: NYer

“The appearance to Juan Diego was on the summit of the hill to get there to pick flowers and roses, which grew normally at this point, and left him in his tilma (cloak) lay.”

Machine translation, right?

Anybody know where there is a large, high-resolution image of the tilma itself?


9 posted on 09/26/2010 6:24:08 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

**Anybody know where there is a large, high-resolution image of the tilma itself?**

In Mexico City — the real thing!


10 posted on 09/26/2010 6:59:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: rovenstinez
Read some of these links about the image -- they explain it amazingly well.

Guadalupe: A Living Image (EWTN - Sunday, Sep. 26 at 10 pm) [Catholic Caucus]
Remembering Our Lady of Guadalupe
Catholic Caucus: Our Lady of Guadalupe: She Who Smashes the Serpent
Infamous Hollywood Screenwriter to Pen Film on Our Lady of Guadalupe - Patroness of the Unborn
Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond' scientific explanation, says researcher
Knights of Columbus Congress, Festival for Our Lady of Guadalupe (Catholic Caucus)
The (Miraculous) Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe [Catholic Caucus]
Remembering Our Lady of Guadalupe [Catholic Caucus]
Our Lady of Guadalupe Feast: December 12 [Repost]
Brief History of the Apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe [Catholic Caucus]

The History of Our Lady of Guadalupe [Ecumenical]
2 Questions related to Faith & Apologetics. A Feast day & Our Lady of Guadalupe [Catholic Caucus]
The Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady of Guadalupe called 'Mother Without Borders' in Los Angeles (Catholic Caucus)
Hernándo Cortés and Our Lady
Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Church Militant (Catholic Caucus)
Scientists certify Our Lady of Guadalupe tilma
STRANGE LIGHT CLAIMED IN GUADALUPE IMAGE AFTER MEXICO CITY OKAYED ABORTION
STRANGE LIGHT CLAIMED IN GUADALUPE IMAGE AFTER MEXICO CITY OKAYED ABORTION -- posted on News Forum
The Story of Guadalupe: Hope for Our Violent World

Our Lady of Guadalupe: Protectress of the Unborn
Was Our Lady of Guadalupe Wrong?
METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE
GUADALUPE DEVOTION IS CROSSING INTO PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS
A Novena to Our Lady of Guadalupe
Relic From Guadalupe Tilma to Tour U.S.
The Amazing Truth of Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady Of Guadalupe
Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531
Science Stunned by Virgin of Guadalupe´s Eyes

11 posted on 09/26/2010 7:04:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

On July 1st, 1995, I visited THE Virgen of Guadalupe in Medellin, Extremadura, SPAIN, the one that CORTEZ introduced to Mexico, we asked the priest when the ‘last miracle’ was performed. He laughed. He said it’s not real. Sorry, people see UFO’S and believe in them, others the tooth fairy. Believe what you want.


12 posted on 09/26/2010 7:08:04 PM PDT by rovenstinez (,)
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To: rovenstinez

??

Even with the proof of scientists in some of the links above?


13 posted on 09/26/2010 7:15:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“In Mexico City — the real thing!”

Hey, not nice. I can’t go to Mexico City.


14 posted on 09/26/2010 8:04:40 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: rovenstinez

“On July 1st, 1995, I visited THE Virgen of Guadalupe in Medellin, Extremadura, SPAIN, the one that CORTEZ introduced to Mexico”

So, are you under the impression that the one in Spain somehow *outranks* the one in Mexico?

“we asked the priest when the ‘last miracle’ was performed. He laughed. He said it’s not real.”

It’s a sad thing, but some of the enemies of the Church are clergy. A priest who has no faith like that remains a priest only to attack the faith of others.

“Sorry, people see UFO’S and believe in them, others the tooth fairy.”

Really? You have heard a rational, sober adult advance a serious claim to have seen the tooth fairy? I think you’re engaging in hyperbole. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but in this case your logic is seriously faulty.

The only syllogism one can derive from that sentence is, “People sometimes claim to have seen things that don’t exist. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.”

Let me pose a couple of questions.

If there were a God, capable of creating the universe, all that is seen and unseen, wouldn’t He be capable of devising some means to communicate His existence to His creatures? And to communicate it unmistakeably, beyond confusion with delusion or hallucination, in such a way that rationality wouldn’t allow the communication to be dismissed?

If that were true, what would one expect to see? (This is just off the cuff here; it’s not meant to be exhaustive.)

1. Multiple reports of such experiences.
2. Commonalities and similarities among these reports.
3. Consistency with what we already know of God.
4. The communication during these reported experiences of information that was not or could not have been obtained through ordinary means.
5. A remarkable lack of anger or indignation when the communicatee is mocked or accused of lying and insanity. (This would be rare, at least in the West today, as most people who have had such experiences do not choose to discuss them with skeptics.)

Skeptics often assert that, because no human being can prove the existence of God to them, God’s non-existence is proved.

They seem not to consider that God can demonstrate His own existence to anyone He chooses, or that rejecting that assertion without sufficient examination is no more scientific or rational than belief in the Tooth Fairy.

“Believe what you want.”

You may believe what you want, if that suits you. Rational, intelligent, educated adults try to believe what experience and knowledge show to be true.

In “Orthodoxy,” G. K. Chesterton wrote, “If I am asked, as a purely intellectual question, why I believe in Christianity, I can only answer, ‘For the same reason that an intelligent agnostic disbelieves in Christianity.’ I believe in it quite rationally upon the evidence. But the evidence in my case, as in that of the intelligent agnostic, is not really in this or that alleged demonstration; it is in an enormous accumulation of small but unanimous facts...I can only say that my evidences for Christianity are of the same vivid but varied kind as his evidences against it. For when I look at these various anti-Christian truths, I simply discover that none of them are true. I discover that the true tide and force of all the facts flows the other way. Let us take cases...”

G. K. Chesterton’s writings are available for download at no cost.


15 posted on 09/26/2010 8:41:36 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: NYer
Definitely was a good video. They did talk about the Guadalupe in Spain and the statue of Our Lady, reportedly crafted by St Luke, retrieved there and its connections to the Spanish explorers...and that this is potentially where the name Our Lady of Guadalupe may have come.
16 posted on 09/27/2010 3:03:47 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: NYer

BTW, this is the statue that was reportedly carved by St Luke and is now housed in Guadalupe, Spain.

17 posted on 09/27/2010 3:07:29 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley

Thank you mark for tracking down an image of that statue. It truly adds to the thread for those who watched the program.


18 posted on 09/27/2010 3:32:09 AM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: dsc; rovenstinez; Salvation
He said it’s not real.

Truth is often lost in poor translation. The priest was probably indicating that this particular image is not the real one. The authentic image is in Mexico. That is the AUTHENTIC image.

Rovenstinez, did you watch the program? It was filled with scientific facts.

19 posted on 09/27/2010 3:36:54 AM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: NYer
Ave Maria!

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Americas, Puhleeze pray for us.

20 posted on 09/27/2010 7:26:20 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (after your fifteen minutes are up you get a lifetime of ignominy.)
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To: NYer; rovenstinez; Salvation

“Truth is often lost in poor translation.”

Now *that’s* one of the truest propositions you’re likely to trip over in this life. As we see on line, truth is often lost even when both parties are native speakers of English.


21 posted on 09/27/2010 9:45:07 AM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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