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Lds Conference Talk October 1984-By Ronald E. Poelman-Mormon (OPEN)
lds-mormon.com ^ | October, 1984 | Ronald E. Poelman

Posted on 10/02/2010 12:05:50 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

When SOME OF THE LEADERS SPEAK, the thinking has been done...and then again......Through the miracle of modern technology, a conference talk focused on the importance of free agency turned into a conference talk focused on the importance of obedience and the fabric of time itself was altered such that the original conference talk turned out to have not ever existed and anyone who thought they had heard something else must have been listening to the influence of evil spirits.

The Gospel and the Church
By Ronald E. Poelman
The First Quorum of the Seventy
General Conference October, 1984

Two different version of this talk were distributed. The first was given over the pulpit at general conference, the second was published in the Ensign and on the official conference videotape. Differences between the two talks are highlighted in red. Deletions from the original talk are set off by strikethrough Font, while additions in the Ensign version are Underlined.

 

Conference Version  Version Published in the Ensign and on Video Tape
Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine. Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine,
However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood. and there is an essential relationship between them that is significant and very important.
Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections. Understanding the proper relationship between the gospel and the Church will prevent confusion, misplaced priorities, and failed expectations and will lead to the realization of gospel goals through happy, fulfilling participation in the Church. Such understanding will avoid possible disaffection and will result in great personal blessings.
As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives. As I attempt to describe and comment upon the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles, laws, and ordinances which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.
The principles and laws of the gospel never change. Gospel principles never change.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth administered by the priesthood of God.
The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances. The Church has the authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.
The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual's life. The gospel is the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is divinely commissioned to provide the means and resources that implement this plan in each individual's life.
Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes. Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures may be changed from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.
Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. . Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures.
As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered. As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we can more effectively utilize the Church to make our lives more gospel centered.
Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies.

Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles.

Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.

The eternal principles of the gospel implemented through the divinely inspired Church apply to a wide variety of individuals in diverse cultures.
The conformity we require should be according to God's standards. Therefore, as we live the gospel and participate in the Church, the conformity we require of ourselves and of others should be according to God's standards.
The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual. The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles, eternal law, and direction given by those authorized in the Church.
It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance.  
The source of this perspective is found in the scriptures and may appear to be presented in a rather unorganized and untidy format. A necessary perspective is gained by studying and pondering the
scriptures.
The Lord could have presented the gospel to us in a manual, systematically organized by subject, perhaps using examples and illustrations.  
However the eternal principles and divine laws of God are revealed to us through accounts of individual lives in a variety of circumstances and conditions.  
Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various messengers at different times and places. Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various prophets in a variety of circumstances, times, and places.
We see the consequences as it is accepted or rejected, as its principles are applied or not to varying degrees and by many different people. We see the consequences as the gospel is accepted or rejected by individuals and as its principles are applied or not.
In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies are utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not. In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies were utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.
Through scripture study we may learn eternal principles and how to distinguish them from and relate them to institutional resources.  
As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ. As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.
A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus. A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.
It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us. It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.
It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone. It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.
It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices. It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.
In the first two verses we read, "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel....." (Leviticus 19: 1-2) In the first two verses we read, "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel....." (Leviticus
19: 1-2)
Here is the principle of revelation. Here is the principle of revelation.
God speaks to his children through prophets. God speaks to his children
through prophets.
He does so today. He does so today.
Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, "....say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2) Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, "....say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2)
Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle. Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.
There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments. There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.
Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances. Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.
For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity. For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.
In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day. In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.
Generally, today that rule is not necessary. Generally, today that rule is not necessary.
The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices. The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.
Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us. Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.
However, we also have standards of dress and grooming. However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.
Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles. Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and
share gospel principles.
The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, "....thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." with the added divine imprimatur, "...I am the Lord." The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, "....thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." with the added divine imprimatur, "...I am the Lord."
Every church member has not only the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices, but has the need and obligation to obtain such assurance by exercising his free agency, thereby fulfilling one purpose of his mortal probation. Every church member has the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices.
Without such assurance, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church. Without such a witness, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.
Indeed, it is not enough that we obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders. We should obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders;
In response to study, prayer and by the influence of the Holy Spirit we may seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired. but also through study, through prayer, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit, we should seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.
Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment. Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.
Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate institutional goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals. Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate Church goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.
When we understand the difference between the gospel and the Church and the appropriate function of each in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons. When we see the harmony between the gospel and the Church in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.
Institutional discipline is replaced by self discipline.  
Supervision is replaced by righteous initiative and a sense of divine accountability. We will exercise self discipline and righteous initiative guided by Church leaders and a sense of divine accountability.
The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, but to discover and adopt the eternal truths of the gospel. The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, and interpretations but to learn and live the eternal truths of the gospel.
Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God. Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.
My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason. My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.
I continue to do so. I continue to do so.
However, that which I know most surely and which has most  significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit. However, that which I know most surely and which has most significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.
By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us. By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.
Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants. Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.
May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church. May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.
In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, "... may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God." (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, "... may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God." (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
 
Audio of the original talk.  http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2010/07/elder-poelmans-gospel-and-church.html
 
 


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: censorship; inman; lds; mormon
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Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources among others, that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.
 
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1 posted on 10/02/2010 12:05:55 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Ping


2 posted on 10/02/2010 12:06:46 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We now have confirmation that Barack Obama truly loves poor people. He is creating so many!)
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To: greyfoxx39
In the October 1984 general conference of the LDS Church, Poelman delivered a sermon entitled "The Gospel and the Church". Controversy ensued when the version of his sermon that was published in the November 1984 Ensign magazine differed from the sermon Poelman had delivered orally.[5] Further, the videotape copies of general conference that were included in church archives and distributed throughout the church contained Poelman delivering the revised version of his sermon. A "cough track" was included in the retaping to make it appear that the revised sermon was delivered in front of an audience.[6]

One commentator has criticised the changes to the sermon as a dramatic shift in the meaning of Poelman's address:

"The rewriting and refilming of Elder Ronald Poelman's October 1984 Conference address, originally a rare and inspiring defense of free agency, so that it became yet another cry for obedience. His text was not edited — his ideas were turned inside out."[7]

Poelman was not invited to speak in general conference again for four and a half years.[6]

Link

3 posted on 10/02/2010 1:58:34 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We now have confirmation that Barack Obama truly loves poor people. He is creating so many!)
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To: greyfoxx39; Saundra Duffy; Paragon Defender; restornu; DelphiUser

What say you Mormon defenders? You’re always quick to accuse the Anti-Mormons of distortion. Can I expect posts of outrage?


4 posted on 10/02/2010 2:24:17 PM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: CommerceComet
What say you Mormon defenders? You’re always quick to accuse the Anti-Mormons of distortion. Can I expect posts of outrage?

The defenders are either at conference where the KoolAid is flowing or trying to ignore this post, LOL....

5 posted on 10/02/2010 2:28:54 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We now have confirmation that Barack Obama truly loves poor people. He is creating so many!)
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To: CommerceComet; Saundra Duffy; Paragon Defender; DelphiUser

Oh please if you have nothing else but to drag something that has been posted years ag on FR and answered.

geez still murmuring dear one....


6 posted on 10/02/2010 2:30:30 PM PDT by restornu (Trust but verify)
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To: restornu

If it was posted, and answered years ago, it shouldn’t be difficult to post the link, right?


7 posted on 10/02/2010 2:46:55 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We now have confirmation that Barack Obama truly loves poor people. He is creating so many!)
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To: greyfoxx39
Of course we know what “answered” means coming from LDS apologist...

“What is the capital of Norway?”

“Belgium!”

“Are you sure, is that your final answer?”

“Yes, it is correct, I have answered your question, do not keep asking me, it is already answered!”

“But is is wrong, the capital is Oslo!”

“That is your opinion, and your are distorting my response to your own ends...”

“Um, ok...”

8 posted on 10/02/2010 2:59:21 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22

From what I could gather, the actual video may have just recently been uncovered. Therefore, the “answer” according to SOP could be proven wrong now. It would be hard to claim the whole thing was falsified with the video and the fake transcript now available.


9 posted on 10/02/2010 3:39:51 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We now have confirmation that Barack Obama truly loves poor people. He is creating so many!)
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To: greyfoxx39

Won’t stop them from doing it anyway...


10 posted on 10/02/2010 3:41:00 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22

Yeah, it will be fun....


11 posted on 10/02/2010 3:44:11 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We now have confirmation that Barack Obama truly loves poor people. He is creating so many!)
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To: greyfoxx39
When SOME OF THE LEADERS SPEAK, the thinking has been done; but the REST have to be EDITTED for correctness before publication.


"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this [discourse] go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire."
 
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, Page 95)

12 posted on 10/02/2010 3:55:48 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39

I vote for #2.

—MormonDude(I couldn’t afford the trip this year.)


13 posted on 10/02/2010 3:56:50 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Oh please if you have nothing else but to drag something that has been posted years ag on FR and answered.

"Little Jimmy; were you SLEEPING in class again?"

"NO, Maam."

"Then tell us; what is 2+2?"

"It is five; as we all know; Maam."

14 posted on 10/02/2010 3:58:44 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
FIVE! Because Billy whispered the answer to me!
15 posted on 10/02/2010 3:59:47 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
No, because Billy appeareth unto me as an angel of light...

He's been doing that ever since his daddy got him that really cool flashlight...

16 posted on 10/02/2010 4:07:29 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22

bttt


17 posted on 10/03/2010 4:49:10 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Oh please if you have nothing else but to drag something that has been posted years ag on FR and answered. geez still murmuring dear one....

Thanks for yet another vacuous non-answer. Does this apparent falsification of the record bother you at all?

18 posted on 10/03/2010 2:04:25 PM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: CommerceComet
NO
19 posted on 10/03/2010 2:24:58 PM PDT by restornu (Trust but verify)
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To: restornu

I don’t recall the earlier discussion of this topic but let me guess about the explanation, it was just a “typesetting error”, right? Gullible people have bought that argument before on a much more foundational problem for Mormonism.


20 posted on 10/04/2010 7:56:29 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: CommerceComet

I don’t recall the earlier discussion of this topic

***

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2600407/replies?c=6

There is also other threads before this one was posted someone is either senile or likes to recycle!

October 02, 2010
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2600407/posts

December 09, 2009
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2403785/posts

July 28, 2009
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2302870/posts

There is one more out there!


21 posted on 10/04/2010 9:34:23 AM PDT by restornu (Trust but verify)
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To: restornu
The first two hot-links are the current thread.

Two issues with the other links. First, I said that I didn't remember the discussion and you'll note that I didn't respond on either of the earlier threads. I may have read them but I don't remember them. Even if you find that I commented on the other thread you say is out there, I'm still honestly stating that I don't remember it. Second, those comments constitute an answer! Boy, you really set the bar low for your Mormon friends.

22 posted on 10/04/2010 10:32:19 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: restornu

We KNEW this; but VERIFICATION is nice, too.


23 posted on 10/04/2010 8:57:51 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CommerceComet
[CommerceComet snarks]

        What say you Mormon defenders? You’re always quick to accuse the Anti-Mormons of distortion. Can I expect posts of outrage?

[Stourme makes sense]

Huh? Why would we make posts of outrage? There's nothing to see here.

This talk was given in 1984, that's before PCs were on every desktop. He probably even wrote it down by hand. It's the principal that's being taught that's important. Before it went into the Ensign he decided to simplify it some.

What's next, are you going to start deriding the New testament because there are 3 different accounts of Saul on the road to Damascus?

 

24 posted on 10/05/2010 4:41:59 PM PDT by Stourme
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To: Stourme
Huh? Why would we make posts of outrage? There's nothing to see here.

Oh, sure.

This talk was given in 1984, that's before PCs were on every desktop. He probably even wrote it down by hand. It's the principal that's being taught that's important. Before it went into the Ensign he decided to simplify it some.

Before video recording equipment? Before audio recording equipment? Before transcripts? Give me a break. My point actually had to do with the selective outrage of the Mormon apologists. Even if the principle was the same, if a Mormon critic made such modifications, the Mormon apologists would scream bloody murder.

25 posted on 10/05/2010 7:05:47 PM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: greyfoxx39

the church teaches a doctrine of lies. if some one told a mormon elvis was still alive - they believe it without question; and would defend it even when evidence points other wise. Joseph smith is a false prophet; a person who preched lies. however, great business man. the morons are a multi billion dollar industry.


26 posted on 10/05/2010 10:18:00 PM PDT by Veritas01 (Veritas)
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To: Veritas01; ejonesie22; Colofornian; colorcountry; svcw; aMorePerfectUnion; Godzilla
Mormon Church makes changes to Packer's sermon regarding homosexuality

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has changed the text of Boyd K. Packer’s sermon on morality, homosexuality and same-sex marriage.

Packer’s sermon claimed that homosexuality was not born of inbred “tendencies.”

In the Church’s online text version of Packer’s talk, the word “tendencies” was changed to “temptations.”

During his original talk, Elder Packer spoke of homosexual tendencies saying, "Some suppose that they were pre- set and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, he is our Father.”

Another change to Packer’s talk includes the omission of the entire sentence, “Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?”

As president and the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve, Packer is next in succession to become president of the church.

******************************************

What a coincidence!

27 posted on 10/08/2010 3:18:27 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with MEDIA'S help.)
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To: restornu

Saying that something has already been posted means nothing. If you are unable to defend your faith then say so, remember there are new people all the time on FR.
If you don’t have a problem that lds leaders change their minds on basic teachings say that.


28 posted on 10/08/2010 3:25:28 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

I don’t need to defend my faith when Jesus Christ is at the head!


29 posted on 10/08/2010 3:27:37 PM PDT by restornu
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To: ejonesie22

Of course we know what “answered” means coming from LDS apologist...

“What is the capital of Norway?”

“Belgium!”

“Are you sure, is that your final answer?”

“Yes, it is correct, I have answered your question, do not keep asking me, it is already answered!”

“But is is wrong, the capital is Oslo!”

“That is your opinion, and your are distorting my response to your own ends...”

“Um, ok...”

“From now on, I’m only going to post links to mormon sites and pretend I gave answers!”

“Um, ok... Do you have any facts?”

“No, just links to mormon sites.”

Um, ok... Do you have any evidence to support mormonism’s wild claims?”

“No, just links to mormon sites.”

Um can you make a coherent and logical argument why any reasonable person should believe anything about mormonism?”

“No, I do have these links to mormon sites.”

“Um, so all you have is your feelings and some links?”

“They’re very good links. They will tell you why you are all wrong and why you should become a mormon and wear magic underwear like me and become a god like I will someday.”

“Ah! So you think people can become gods?”

“That’s so false! It’s an old accusation, [yawn] and it’s been answered at these links to mormon sites!”

“But you just said...! Um... nevermind.”

“You anti-mormons are always bringing up regurgitated falsehoods!”

“But do you believe what you just said about becoming a god?”

“I have these links you can see.”


30 posted on 10/08/2010 5:51:59 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

But those links are the “truth” and If I accuse of not reading them despite the fact you have told me you have over and over and use them effectively in your own postings exposing the false doctrine of the LDS, which is truth BTW, those in our target market of marks such as those with short attentions spans, issues with rational thought but have lots of money and the spiritually weak, (oh and I left of those with gold fillings), will think how brilliant we are and how bad you look for not investigating the LDS which of course we all know you have because you know exactly how messed up our doctrine and dogma is as you demonstrate with you “lies”(wink wink), because according to our training our doctrine is sound no matter what side of an issue we are on at the time.


31 posted on 10/09/2010 4:12:19 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I like this from a question and answer on the official lds site. (I used bold letters to enfisise a couple of things)

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often called Mormons, believe that families are eternal, and that the purpose of such eternal union is to create spirit children of their own, prepare worlds for those children to live upon, then guide them through the same mortal experiences and testing they themselves passed through in order to help them learn, grow, and become themselves one day worthy to receive the awesome powers attendent to beings who do such things at present, i.e. Gods.

Latter-day Saints do not believe they will be given God like powers over non-believers in the next life. In fact, faithful Latter-day Saints, as they pass into the next life, will continue to teach others who had no opportunity to hear their message while alive on this earth in order to help them attain the same level of joy and happiness they themselves expect to receive.

The fact that Latter-day Saints accept the existence of other, "Gods", in no way contradicts the accepted Christian belief in one Eternal Father (God), anymore than the existence of other mortal fathers here on earth, denies the fact that people have but one biological father.

www.lds.org .

32 posted on 10/09/2010 1:30:50 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: restornu

Which Jesus? The created jesus or the Eternal Jesus?


33 posted on 10/09/2010 1:32:15 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

Which Jesus? The created jesus or the Eternal Jesus?

***

I am sure you would not know Him!

He is the one who said “If ye love me keep my commandments” and to “Love One Antoher”.


34 posted on 10/09/2010 1:47:20 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

That does not answer the question. Is it the created jesus or the Eternal Jesus?


35 posted on 10/09/2010 1:50:00 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

It does not seem to matter sense you are unable to recieve a witness!


36 posted on 10/09/2010 1:54:24 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Here I will help you. From Mitt Romney's web site:

The truth of the matter is that the Mormon Church teaches that God created everyone and everything. That means he created Jesus (one of the few areas where Mormon understanding of Jesus differs from that of traditional Christianity), and yes, it also means he created Satan, and also created you and me.

Please notice that Mitt does not capitalize He when referring to God. (The underlining is mine)

37 posted on 10/09/2010 2:03:05 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw; Paragon Defender; Normandy

The truth of the matter is that the Mormon Church teaches that God created everyone and everything. That means he created Jesus (one of the few areas where Mormon understanding of Jesus differs from that of traditional Christianity), and yes, it also means he created Satan, and also created you and me.

Please notice that Mitt does not capitalize He when referring to God. (The underlining is mine)

***

The an old saying A little knowledge can be dangereous thing.

A small amount of knowledge can mislead people into thinking that they are more expert than they really are.

first of all Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF HEAVENLY FATHER!

Jesus was co Creator with His Father of what is on and in the earth!

Man was created with the elements of the earth as in Adam and Eve.

Jesus was the ONLY begotten by the Heavenly Father and enter earth through His mother Mary!

The human race came through Adam and Eve.

Satan was not created he never receive a temporal body of flesh and blood because he rebled against God the Father therefore he did not keep his first estate so he could never receive the second estate of a body of flesh and blood.

Like all of us Satan had a choice and he chose to rebel instead honoring the Creator.

Lucifer aka Satan fell from grace

Isa 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Rev 8
10 And the third angel sounded, and there afell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

D&C 76

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath

____

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it,

and having denied the Only Begotten Son OF the Father,

having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

....are they also the same ones who trash The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Eph 6

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Those who are the Lord come with the gospel of PEACE!

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

John 14

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


38 posted on 10/09/2010 3:08:45 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

So your post disagrees with Mitt, wow!


39 posted on 10/09/2010 4:17:19 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

I don’t know I have not been to his web site


40 posted on 10/09/2010 4:33:35 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

What I quoted is from his web site.


41 posted on 10/09/2010 4:39:36 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: restornu
That's why I said: From Mitt Romney's web site:

The truth of the matter is that the Mormon Church teaches that God created everyone and everything. That means he created Jesus (one of the few areas where Mormon understanding of Jesus differs from that of traditional Christianity), and yes, it also means he created Satan, and also created you and me.

42 posted on 10/09/2010 4:40:39 PM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

I would have to read it for myself and I don’t know what link you are talking about!


43 posted on 10/09/2010 4:43:14 PM PDT by restornu
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Amazingly accurate depiction of what we’ve been witnessing from one or two of these apologists for the cult of Joseph Smith.


44 posted on 10/09/2010 4:46:23 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they cannot be deceived, it's nye impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: restornu
You mean like this: (I am curious when Hales says "His and Him" who is Hales talking about? Smith or "the lord"?

Elder Hales testified, "The work of the Prophet Joseph Smith is the Savior's work. In the Lord's service, the path is not always easy. It often requires sacrifices, and we will likely experience adversity. But in serving Him, we will discover His hand truly over us. …

"So it was with the Prophet Joseph Smith. So it will be with us."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/58833/Elder-Robert-D-Hales-Joseph-Smith-Memorial-Fireside-addresses-Mormon-young-single-adults.html

45 posted on 10/10/2010 7:54:01 AM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

You mean like this...

***

It seems you are a very confused anti or deliberately changing the subject!

Now where is the link on Mitt you were talking about?


46 posted on 10/10/2010 8:19:46 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

I told you it was from his web site.
Hales was giving a “witness”, seems you missed that.


47 posted on 10/10/2010 9:03:38 AM PDT by svcw (Just in case you ever wondered: As of May 2010, it costs ~ $0.0167 US Dollars to mint a penny.)
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To: svcw

You did not give the link please stop messing around!


48 posted on 10/10/2010 9:06:59 AM PDT by restornu
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To: svcw

Hales was giving a fireside talk to young adults in Utah I do not live in Utah!


49 posted on 10/10/2010 9:09:29 AM PDT by restornu
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To: svcw
The fact that Latter-day Saints accept the existence of other, "Gods", in no way contradicts the accepted Christian belief in one Eternal Father (God), anymore than the existence of other mortal fathers here on earth, denies the fact that people have but one biological father.

mormonism view of Christianity

50 posted on 10/10/2010 10:24:36 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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