Posted on 11/04/2010 4:18:29 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Don't feel TOO bad; Resty; that you do not know sbout the PresbyterianISM thing - for no other MORMON knows either.
(Oh, yeah. A true trollish molish type. I didn't think about that. But if you indeed review his posts...
... he doesn't actually defend Mormonism content-wise.
...And the links? Those are pretty embarrassing to send a potential "newbie" in that direction [why do you think they hand a potential convert a Book of Mormon vs. a card that has online links attached to it?]
...And then, to top it off, he judges people left & write in shotgun ways without offering any evidence or specifics! Which, IMA, only makes this legalistic cult appear even harsher! I mean, come on, what true-believing Mormon would want that kind of PR to be widely distributed online?)
PD, I owe you an apology for not being a bit more gentle. You've been doing a truly admirable job...
Sorry, tho, about Jonesie blowin' your cover...you've been a real boon to the bumping of these threads, too!
(Oh, yeah. A true trollish molish type. I didn't think about that. But if you indeed review his posts...
... he doesn't actually defend Mormonism content-wise.
...And the links? Those are pretty embarrassing to send a potential "newbie" in that direction [why do you think they hand a potential convert a Book of Mormon vs. a card that has online links attached to it?]
...And then, to top it off, he judges people left & write in shotgun ways without offering any evidence or specifics! Which, IMA, only makes this legalistic cult appear even harsher! I mean, come on, what true-believing Mormon would want that kind of PR to be widely distributed online?)
PD, I owe you an apology for not being a bit more gentle. You've been doing a truly admirable job...
Sorry, tho, about Jonesie blowin' your cover...you've been a real boon to the bumping of these threads, too!
So tell us SD - name simularities are so called proof? If you had bothered to 'read' the information, scroll is dated 134 CE (AD), so tell us the bom Alma was kicking around 83 BC (so sez the bom footnotes). Is that 'proof' of israelies in the Americas - not in the slightest SD.
Find a Mayan glyph with Alma's name on it then you will have physical proof. Show us some of the Nephite coinage in the Americas as described by Alma.
Alma keeps shifting like sand too -
(1950 bom ):Alma 29:4:"yea, I know that he allotteth unto men [?].according to their wills.. "
Today: Alma 29:4: "yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable,.according to their wills.. "
Care to explain that SD (may be moroni lent the church the plates again to correct the most correct book)
And good 'ol Alma writing about Jesus Christ, centuries before His birth, using the Anglized Latin/Greek forms - pretty hefty requirement for something supposed to be written in reformed egyptian eh SD?
So have you removed all ungodliness from your life yet?
Saundra, I can see my post to Norm bothered you. Did it bother you enough to dig a little deeper and find out what your chosen religion’s founders taught that contradicts Christianity? Until then, try to remain silent while thoe with a working knowledge of Mormonism exchange minor insults, you don’t want to get anything on your pretty (s)mock during a food fight.
SD - every statement can be supported from smith’s history. What is shameful is the willing deflection of truth from thinking.
Sandy, dear one, it is not ejonesie doing the condemning. If you feel condemnation it is from God’s Holy Spirit Who promised to never leave you, even if you fall away and wander into the heresies of Mormonism. Think about it, Saundra. God loves you so much that even int he midst of the blasphemies Mormons try to feed to you, you still feel condemnation. It is not ejonesie whom you feel ...
The BIBLE mentions ANGEL of LIGHT.
JS was visited by TWO of them.
The rest is history.
So are you telling me that you know more than your mormon doctrine teaches. I didn’t know lds have started allowing women to be prophets.
Or better yet SD - prove to me from mormon doctrine that a tangible being of flesh and bone can do such a thing.
rofl you guys keep telling each other that. /snicker
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
You'd appear to have trouble getting the TarBaby to fight with you...
So you DON'T have a Temple Recommend then??
“When Jesus Christ visited the Nephites following his resurrection, he taught:”
Do you have any factual evidence that supports your claim that this happened?
Character of the 11 Witnesses
Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates, he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith’s translation. Smith’s only defense of his account is the eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith’s account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses. There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight allege to have seen the plates but not the angel. The LDS church asserts these men never denied their testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering, and gullible witnesses.
Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church. Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. “Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the church. Three of Joseph Smith’s counselors fell—one even helped plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made a similar statement [in 1949].”{6}
Let us first examine the character of the three key witnesses since their testimony is the most important. In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer, one of the eight. “John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention.”{7}
Martin Harris’ testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. {8}(Ankerberg, 196) In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a “wicked man.”{9} The Mormon leaders published an article in the Elder’s Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of “swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery. . .” (Elders Journal, August, 1838, 59).{10} Here the leaders of the Mormon Church strongly criticize the character of Harris.
Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man. He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a false teacher, Smith stated “to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain ‘revelations’ . . . all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God’s House, . . .”{11} Despite Smith’s condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page’s movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, “During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer’s bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . .”{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later joined the Methodist Church.
David Whitmer wrote, “God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.” In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; . . .”{13} Here David Whitmer denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow his example and the example of the other witnesses and leave the church.
Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David Whitmer. Smith stated, “God suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam’s . . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor ass!”{14}
The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ. None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ, even though all suffered and most died for their faith. The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The character of the Book of Mormon’s eleven witnesses does not strengthen Smith’s defense but cast further doubt on its authenticity.
Probe Ministry website quote
Dear Mormons who may be reading this thread,
If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s a group of Christians who spend a great deal of time posting from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church materials.
You will also notice that many of these Christians are former Mormons who have left Mormonism and come to know the real Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace.
They have a passion to reach other Mormons to share what they learned about Salvation by grace and apart from human works.
Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very small group of self-styled “defender” Mormons who have zeal, but no knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told them. They also continually have a difficult time identifying any:
… Facts
… Evidence
… Logical support - that any reasonable person could understand that would validate their Mormon claims.
Consistently, this small group of Mormon posters are forced to face that their faith is based on little more than feelings that cannot be verified - and of course, the illusion of the “mormon links” that “address things”, but never answer them.
People deserve more than feelings and side-stepping hard questions (like the non-defender links that appear so often).
The best these “defenders” have been able to do is construct ad hominem attacks against Christians, which is always a sign that they have no facts, evidence of logical arguments. You have certainly witnessed this here many times as you read these threads, so I am not telling you anything you haven’t seen with your own eyes.
After reading both sides on this thread and others, you may very well be wondering about what you were taught when you joined the LDS church.
You also may be wondering how to resolve the lack of facts, evidence and illogical nature of Mormon claims. Many have approached those of us who are Christians asking where to find out more and some, even, to ask how to leave the Church and learn more about Christ’s Gospel of Grace.
Here are a few links to get you started in your quest to know the Biblical Christ.
http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html
http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/
http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/
You should also feel comfortable private freepmailing any Christians on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have. We always do our best to directly answer your questions with facts, evidence and logical support from the Bible.
best,
ampu
Alma...
Saundra, is this an example of a “fact” that “supports” the mormon claims???
There was an Alma, NY, founded in 1833!
Really, Saundra. You got ripped off.
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