Skip to comments.LDS View of God Contradicts the Bible
Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
“I am called Resty you refer to yourself even as AMPU these handles are not derogatory!”
I agree entirely with you on this Resty! I claim to be the first that referred to you as Resty - a term of endearment and friendship.
“BTW Onions are good for the heart therefore I would never refer to you as Onion!”
Call me anything. Just don’t call me late for dinner!
Your little perfect onion
“All I’m asking you to do is just say that James was correct. “
James, of course, is correct. Your interpretation of what James said, is, of course, totally bogus.
But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.
And I believe those who accuse others of shooting in the foot are committing violence in their hearts!
That is silly...
No way around it carnal profane words are carnal profane words and come from a place where the almighty is not present!
I don’t know MHG, you and the bible have already made it very clear stourme’s assertions are out of wack. He’s not hitting too well, since he won’t admit to getting on the WRONG bandwagon regarding Romans 5:6-8, right AMPU.
Interesting, considering that lds inc. has invested billions in a mall in slc, while the poor and hungry in places like Haiti have only received pittance.
Consider also how the ‘restored’ apostles and prophet are treated in context with james 2:2* For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3* And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Poor mormons like stourme - they are weighted down by their laws and ordinances in order to become ‘acceptable’. They further fail to recognize James 2:10* For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
So I guess if stourme wants to make feeding and clothing the poor a requirement for salvation, how many of the poor has he PERSONALLY fed and clothed? Has he personally fed and clothed enough to be righteous? If not, then he has failed to keep the whole law and is guilty of violating ALL of the law.
And James add more condemnation - for he commends the poor as being recipients of faith and the kingdom. Yet, how many of these poor actually get a temple recommend? And if were were to take the logic laid out here by stourme to its conclusion - why haven’t mormons renounced their wealth and become materially poor to be blessed with faith and to inherit the kingdom? The crickets are getting mighty loud.
By his own words in this thread, mormons like stourme are bound to perfectly keep all of the law - with the slightest failure resulting in having to start all over. They are not renouncing material wealth to become poor to inherit the kingdom. Nor are they love their neighbors as themselves - they keep them outside of their temples and deny them.
Yet in conclusion - James come out and emphasizes that we will be “judged by the law of liberty.” (Jas 2:12) and delivered from the curse of the law by the mercy of God. Thus as Paul states in Rom 5:6-8, Jesus saved us while we were yet ungodly.
mormons like stourme rather obfuscate than meet this head on.
Well, you preach it your way, I’ll preach it mine.
Just be thankful that we both agree that Romney is an unrepentant abortionist statist troll who should never be considered as a presidential contender!!
“Just be thankful that we both agree that Romney is an unrepentant abortionist statist troll who should never be considered as a presidential contender!!”
Bears repeating over and over.
Now, I’m no biblical scholar but I believe the bible is rampant with carnal activity.
Onions - good source of fiber
Is that why you seem so cranky?
My parents felt jaded to about church in general too so they never went to church and I am proud to say they walk the walk the best they could striving to live the Ten Commandments.
Me I need all the help I can get...
In the same manner that his allegations regarding Rom 5:6-8 are totally bogus as well.
Why would anyone donate money to a site that opts to attack their church? This has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with stoking a precious few egos.
That's a pretty consistently active posting history for someone who claims to be using FR *primarily as a news source*.
You object it enough to withhold your support, and yet continue to FReepload and encourage others to do the same?
It reminds me of certain groups of immigrants who come to the US criticizing it the whole while.
If you don't like it here, leave already.
And that's just my own opinion. I do not say that as someone in authority to order you around (anticipating the usual *Who do you think you are telling me what to do?* reaction. Just a FReeper who has no use for hypocrites.
The preceding message is NOT Mormon bashing. Sorry to disappoint you.
“FReeploader that encourages others to do the same.”
Tell Hodar to pay his full tithe... or be considered unworthy or a FRemple Recommend.
[MHGinTN]When will you read the posts Ive already posted for you? The answer to your demand is there, if you but read the posts. ... Can you hear me now?
You object it enough to withhold your support, and yet continue to FReepload and encourage others to do the same?
It reminds me of certain groups of immigrants who come to the US criticizing it the whole while.
LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR!!!
FR is a free site. FR is kept interesting by lots of interaction of people with different opinions.
The more people feel welcome the more chance there is they will donate.
I would suggest not telling people to leave.
The words of Jesus Himself.
John 6: 28 Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?
29 Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
Works will only result in condemnation. They can’t save you. If you sin only once, you are guilty of the whole Law. You can live a perfect live from now on and it’s not going to do any good because of that once.
THAT’S why works don’t save, because you have to keep the WHOLE Law. Only Jesus did that.
Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
>I agree, and i also was saying that before i started to church i was pretty good at doing what God wants us to do, as doing unto others as you would have them to do unto you.
But after i started to church, religion took over and i quit doing those things that i had been doing, i started thinking that i had no part with people that did not go to church.<
Well, it is real easy to get our focus on pleasing others instead of God, but truly, we’re the ones who choose to do it, no one makes us. Today our churches are full of unbelievers. The tares are even in the pulpit teaching false doctrine and blindly leading others. The only way to know the difference between the false and the true is to know the Word of God.
An old lady told me when I first became a Christian in 1979 that Christians had a relationship, not a religion. She was right, of course. I am thankful I was told that at the beginning of my Christian walk.
>Abraham was called a friend of God because he was counted righteous because he showed God his faith by his works, but even his works was not enough, he still had to follow Jesus into glory as the rest of Gods early men of God did.<
Abraham was justified, or counted righteous, or declared righeous, when he BELIEVED God’s promises in Genesis 15. [Genesis 15:6: “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”
James (2:23) is saying that in Genesis 22, when Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac, the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
He was already justified by faith. But getting his son ready for the sacrifice as God told him SHOWED that his faith was real, not dead or worthless. In that regard, he was justified [SHOWN to be righteous] by works and not by faith alone. The whole point being that if a person says he has faith in God through Jesus Christ, he will have a righteous life (evidence of his faith) that proves his righteousness.
>Since every church has a different doctrine, every one can be wrong, but every one can not be right, so it has to be a personal faith in God and in his son.<
Yes, personal faith in God’s only provision for our salvation—the Lord Jesus Christ. And then we must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, 2 Peter 3:18, by studying His Word.
I know it’s hard to find a church where Jesus Christ is the focus and God’s Word is believed as Truth without error. But there are still a few around. There’s no perfect church, right?! There are tares in every assembly I suspect. If I found myself in a church that didn’t adhere to the Bible, I’d start running!
>I have only come into contact with one church that i mostly agree with and they do not say they are the only true church and in fact they will tell you that you do not even have to go to church to be saved.<
Well, church attendance is certainly not a requirement for salvation, only one way is—grace through faith, as Ephesians 2:1-10 says. But believers are told not to forsake assembling together, so I would definitely make it a point to meet with other believers for Bible study, prayer, and worship if I couldn’t find a decent church.
>They do not collect Tithes and do not believe Christian churches have the commandment nor the authority to collect them.
Could tithes have something to do with other churches telling people they needed to come to church to be saved?
Just my idea and have a great day.<
Well, I wouldn’t doubt that it is the motive of some that saw that.
Yes, tithes were for Israel under the Law. The church, that is, the body of true believers, are to give generously, as 2 Corinthians 9 says.
Philippians 4:23 to you
Are you a FReeploader too? FR is accessible due to the good graces of Jim Robinson AND the freewill donations of thousands who DO NOT try to dictate what JR allows on his site.
FR is kept interesting by lots of interaction of people with different opinions. The more people feel welcome the more chance there is they will donate.
I would suggest not telling people to leave.
Painting it as hyperbole is hyperbole in itself.
In case you can’t tell the difference between saying one thing and doing another, there are words for it.
And there’s another word for when someone makes a claim to be doing one thing and in reality does another.
How is telling someone to leave already if they object to it so much any worse than someone encouraging others not to donate until FR complies with what they want it to be?
Control issues much?
So, you chastise me for encouraging him to leave already cause he maybe could sometime in the future donate, but did you chastise him for encouraging others to not donate?
***scanning stourme’s posting history....***
Yeah, that’s what I thought.....
Instead of responding to Rom 5:6-8 you whined to the RM. Tells all that MHG is not the one who cannot refuse to acknowledge the simplest phrase in the Bible.
My word. What a horrid thread.
And the LDSers complain about *anti*’s (Mormon)????!!!!??!?!?!?!
How much worse can it get than implying that some FReepers could be the ones who started the fire?
I could just see the fallout if the shoe were on the other foot. A fire at an Evangelical church and some Evangelical suggested that some Mormon FReeper started it.
This guy boasted he was going to "shut down" FR a year or so ago, and since he failed to do that he has been posting THIS kind of garbage
and it appears that some of the FR mormons are following his lead.
That guy is way behind WND has always been anti LDS as far back as 2004 when RazorMouth would write scathing anti LDS stuff....
The Nauvoo Expositor wrote the truth concerning the behind the scenes life of Joseph Smith and his inner circle. Smith ordered it to be destroyed. It appears that some things never change - except that no one is going to burn FR down.
Someone say Presbyterians?
Your specious spin on what he wrote and taught I will not agree to, your momronism spin being opposite what James taught which agrees with the rest of the New Testament teaching that faith comes then works instituted by the leadership of the Holy Spirit within the beliver follow, else the faith is not 'faithing'.
With James I agree, and it was a journey of deep study that lead me to that agreement, but with your heretical interpretation of what James said I will not agree, your childish insults notwithstanding. Is there something else you need help with, bless your little heart?
Oh fer crying out loud. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn’t mean it’s hate.
In that case, every time you disagree with someone, you are a hater, too.
It works both ways.
Accusing people of *hate* to shut down the discussion and keep someone from expressing their opinion of you or your beliefs is a liberal tactic right out of their play book.
And it’s used primarily by the gays. Don’t fall for it and follow their intellectually dishonest practices and strategies. You’re better than that.
Looks like a liberty-hating anti-freeper from my perspective.
Viva la revolucion!!
But it IS ridiculous because a 5 year old can see the flaws in logic. If God was once a finite being then He isn't God and the Bible lies when it says that He's eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
My choice here. Believe The Bible, which makes sense and is consistent, or believe Brigham Young, how doesn't make sense and isn't consistent.
It's a no brainer.
Did you even read the post? "WorldNetDaily is becoming, much like the conservative web site Free Republic: a forum for anti-Mormons."
So did you REALLY think the link was posted because of WND?
“Christ died for the UNGODLY” Placemarker
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vainif indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for usfor it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Works are a result of salvation to glorify God. They don’t earn salvation. Faith does that.
John 10:37&38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. [Jesus is clearly teaching that without God's Spirit within, the works are not authored by God! The poster would rather work his way to worthiness because he believes the lies of Mormonism. Jesus is also teaching that the works are evidence that God is within, affirming what James wrote that first fiath then God comes into the human spirit to fashion the works of righteousness. Don't expect the poster admit to this very profound truth straight from Jesus.]
Christ died for the UNGODLY placemarker
[Stourme, you somehow failed to respond to all the posts upthread that documented the truth that Christ died for
the UNGODLY - not the “worthy” ...]
Please tell Roy and Greg that everyone here says "hi".
Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Notice here that John says that God GAVE us eternal live, past tense. We already possess it and it is given only through His Son. And John wrote what he did so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life. God wants us to be sure.
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Salvation is by faith so that no one can boast. When it's by works, that leaves room for pride and boasting, that one was good enough to do it. Then God doesn't get the glory, man does, and God will not share His glory with another.
Ephesians 2 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Christ came for everyone and invites all men to follow him. There can be NO GODLY people with out the atonement of Christ. Jesus Christ paid the price for sin for all those who would follow Him.
Utterly devoid of truth.
I have no clue what you are refering too the point I was making is that guy was way behind on WND, who enjoyed posted RazorMouth scathing strawman stuff on the LDS.
Just like you don’t appreciate what this greg person is posting neither do I appreciate what WND takes delight in demonizing the LDS.
It all should stop!
I pray someday people can love one another as the Lord has asked and not hold grudges it only poison and weakens one system
To love One Another is a not a weakness for it is the Spirit of the Lord that editfies.
When we elevate or thoughts we are able to received from on high a better way to win this scrimmage we are in here on earth.
The arm of flesh can only go so far it is the arm of the Lord we need in this spiritual battle.
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:
22 Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts.
23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.
Sorry I did not read it all all I saw was WND which which made me think of RazorMouth.
I used to read all the time until Farrah had this attitudes towards the LDS.
[metmom] Nor can works ever give any guarantee of salvation because you never know if you've done enough.
You are correct. You're absolutely right.
However, you're not adding in the other side of the equation. The other side of the equation is daily repentance. Then FAITH that the Lord will forgive us for our sins as He has promised to do.
The Lords promise is our guarantee.
Stourme you are getting confused again from all of your spinning again. DIdn't you earlier claim that Christ did not die for the UNGODLY. Now you are making essentially the opposite statement - the he DID die for the ungodly. Confusion reigns in the mind of the mormon apologist.
I'm not sure what Bible you're using but that's not John 6:28.
LOL, look at this metmom, he really is in a tail spin-
28 Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Apparently stourme cannot tell the difference between the NIV and KJV and even SEE that they say the same essential thing. LOL and stourme sez you've been deceived mm LOL.
No one is saying they do. Jesus Christ saves us. Jesus has requirements that must be met or He will not save us.
Lurkers will note that this is the crux of the deception. You have to be 'worthy' and 'godly' (essentially completely sinless within your life by your efforts) BEFORE Jesus will "save" you. Stourme likes to put the words of Jesus out there - ignoring what comes first - faith/salvation or works. Typically mormon, he gets them backwards. What does Jesus say -
John 3: 16* For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus speaks of no WORKS, no ORDINANCES, no temple sealings, not marriage, not even tithing - but faith expressed as belief. Since stourme claims to be a believer in looking at the whole bible Paul writes:
Ro 5:15* But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
To meet requirements is a wage, an obligation. Wages and obligations are the opposite of FREE, and a free GIFT at that. Do you pay for your gifts to you at Christmas in order to get it? For most of us the answer is no. From what stourme says, for mormons it is yes. Make that child earn the $$ for that bicycle you are going to 'GIVE' them on Christmas.
This brings us back to the point stourme has dodged all day that Paul addressed a few verses earlier -
Rom 5: 6* For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7* For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8* But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ died for the ungodly - nothing to 'merit' that death - nothing to 'earn' merit for that salvation. Stourme would do well to remember what else Paul wrote in this book
Ro 11:6* And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
It is grace by which we are saved - no qualifying works necessary. Perhaps a reminder from God how he views these works of righteousness
Isa 64:6* But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
If stourme does his homework, he will see that the phrase "filthy rags" is more literally rendered bloodied menstrual cloths - probably the LEAST clean thing under the mosaic law. It is these 'works' that stourme wants to claim are acceptable to Jesus in order to be saved.
Sadly, mm, this is a case or mormonitus to the max. Only enough biblical study to promote the 'twistyanity' of mormon doctrines - while being ignorant to the rest of what scripture has to say on the subject. Playing loosy-goosy with context where it benefits them, discounting context where it destroys their arguments.
Well, the posting here today have shown the shallowness of the mormon interpretation of the scriptures to the max.
We do indeed need to repent of sins that we’ve committed each day, but that doesn’t mean we’re saved and not saved on a daily basis.
It’s not like we get saved, oops, we sinned so we’re not any more, and then we confess our sin so we are again, and then oops, we sinned again and aren’t... ad nauseum.
What happens then if you forget one?
Daily confessing of sin and asking for forgiveness restores the fellowship we have with God. Sin breaks the fellowship, not the relationship.
Read the Beatitudes. It’s all about the heart, not the actions. He called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs. You can be perfect in works and still not make it because you’re trusting in your own righteousness, which is really an oxymoron since we have none in and of ourselves. Our works are as filthy rags to Him.
Faith is what pleases God and makes us righteous before Him, not works.
All works based religions beat the same drum.
If the Law that God gave is incapable of saving, any law that man makes up and adds to grace and faith is incapable of saving as well.
All these works based religions simply add their own version of what works(law) needs to be done or kept. Replacing the Law, which couldn’t save, with another law, which can’t save either, is an exercise in futility.
But it sure makes people feel good to be in control.
Speak for yourself you should know but not all hearts are unrighteious!
It appears that you are RIGHT!!
ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY
1. Im Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you dont!
2. Im Superior; I have Gods true priesthood power -- you dont!
3. Im Superior; I can go in Gods secret Temple -- you cant!
4. Im Superior; Ive been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- youre just normal!
5. Im Superior; Ill have my family with me in heaven -- youll be with strangers!
6. Im Superior; Im becoming a God -- you arent!
7. Im Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours dont.
8. Im Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
9. Im Superior; I dont HAVE a creed - Ive got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. Im Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. -- You cant.
12. Im Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics --
-- Youre a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. Im Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. Im Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you dont.
18. Im Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you dont ;so you cant.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. Im Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably -- Youre on your own; when you get to wherever youre going!
21. Im Superior; Im going to hie to Kolob -- youre going to who knows where.
22. Im Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you dont.
23. Im Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple
-- all you have is a stupid cross.
24. Im Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)
26. I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over).
Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.
All rights liable to be abused.
The MAN replied to ME!!!
I can almost say, along with Anna, For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation
I have seen the restoring of gumption among the Right of America!
Thank you, Jim, for giving us a focus: a place where we could congregate and give VOICE to our thoughts; where we can explore - in detail - the things that have made our Country great.
We are now much emboldened and are ready to carry the fight to the Left with vigor.
I've kinda sensed that.
Do YOU have a Temple Recommend®?
LOL, careful with that fire mr. scarecrow - you might just get burnt. You forget a key component to your little bale of straw stourme
[Stourme]We are saved by the grace of Christ. Christ has put qualifications on who will receive that grace.
Lurkers will note - the key point being obfuscated by mormon apologists on this point is that there are PRE-REQUSITE requirements to receiving the grace of Christ. Lets be clear about 'grace' found in the bible within this context. By definition is it the UNEARNED favor of God. Hopefully you didn't have trouble reading that stourme. When you put 'qualifications' on that 'grace', as Paul says, it ceases to be grace. Therefore Christ died for ONLY ungodly men is correct - if you are already 'godly', you would already be sinless as well (at least according to mormon doctrine).
The simple fact that Rom 5:6 & 8 Christ died for us while we were BOTH ungodly and sinners, within the entire book of Romans, we do not have to do anything to EARN that salvation.
No, the strawman is the extra-biblical attempt by mormons to force the NT to conform to the bom - in that it is his grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. Mormons cannot tell us at what point they have done all they can do to merit this 'grace' (a perversion on the use of the word in the bible). They can NEVER tell us at what point they've done enough to be saved. Elsewhere in the bom, it tells that ONLY AFTER you are completely godly - THEN is his 'grace' sufficient.
There is no one that Jesus didn't die for. But the salvation offered by Christ is not something that can be earned by works of righteousness - but strictly by grace. Paul said it best -
Ga 2:21* I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
If you are godly - Christ died in vain. Stop frustrating the grace of God stourme.
Is this one of your Good Days or is your stenographer nearby?