Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
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What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
5. OMNIPRESENT
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
Words do fail at times......
Mal. 3: 18
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Heb. 11: 4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Matt. 10: 41
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
Not one of those verses means that you have to work to earn your salvation.
Good works that mean anything are a result of being saved.
What they do is earn you reward in heaven. They don’t earn you heaven.
Nice cherrypicking, Stourme.
A compliment, though: At least you picked the right chapters to focus on...if you were going to try to do some kind of "statistical analysis" of who would retain new life/consummate salvation.
What's interesting is that you easily found the two chapters mentioning a still general term Jesus uses of "few", but somehow in your "statistical analysis" you skipped over the one verse that actually provides a % for us (Matt. 25:2).
It's not as if you missed Matt. 25. Why didn't you cite v. 2? Was that a deliberate skip-over? Was it because it didn't match your theme scheme?
Here's Matt 25:2: Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
That's a 50% ratio, Stourme.
So how do we reconcile the 50% of Matt 25:2 with the "few" of Matt. 7 & Luke 13?
It's simple. The "few" of Matt. 7 & Luke 13 is against the backdrop of humanity -- the humanity's that ever lived...and the humanity that as we move closer to the days when Jesus returns...it'll be darker than ever...(see Matthew 24).
The 50% figure is in ratio to the people who go out to meet the Bridegroom. These are people who have been wanting and waiting to see Him. They're not the type of people who are going to flee in fear when Jesus returns. IOW, I'm pretty sure we can discount the "unchurched" from even being a part of this ratio (on either side).
What's interesting, Stourme, is that in Matt. 25...the 50% of people anticipating Jesus' return are locked out because they lack one readiness: Oil...a symbol in the Scriptures for the Holy Spirit. They lack the Holy Spirit in their lives.
* When the word "temple" is mentioned to Jews, they tend to think of a physical location.
* When the word "temple" is mentioned to Mormons, they tend to think of a physical location. [If you don't believe me, go to your Mormon bookstores and look over all the books on temples]
* When the word "temple" is mentioned to Christians, most tend to think of the flesh-and-blood Body of Christ, which is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
When Lds "apostles" through the years have described the Holy Spirit, you have Lds "prophets" like Joseph Smith and "apostles" like John Widtsoe who describe Him in impersonal terms and use the word "IT" in conjunction with Him. The Mormon Times to this very year makes the exact same mischaracterization of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise, the Mormon Encyclopedia -- and historically, Lds "apostles" like Heber C. Kimball -- have labeled the Holy Spirit to be a "man."
If you do what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and depersonalize the Holy Spirit...and just as bad, if you make the Holy Spirit out to be a "man" -- you show that Mormons don't even know who the Holy Spirit is!
Thus, it appears Lds would either fall into two categories: Either the 50% ratio anticipating to see Jesus, but will be locked out -- not even knowing the true Holy Spirit of which they try to speak. Or, realizing that they have not trusted Jesus' cross to cover their sins -- that they've tried to merit God's forgiveness, they run from Him and aren't even considered to be either of those 50% ratios...they would be part of the "broad" of Matthew 7.
I suppose I'll next have to trot out the verses from...
...from the D&C (76:52)...
...The Lds church, (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 253)
...Spencer W. Kimball (in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, several references)
...from Bruce McConkie (Mormon Doctrine, p. 295)
...from Lds "apostle" Boyd Packer...
...& other Lds "prophets"...
......who have all preached that you have to earn/merit your forgiveness.
What are you trying to put pass me silly one...
NEVER, lucifer is not a human being, never was, never will be, but a different creation all together. Because of his place infront of God, there was no excuse for his rebellion, nor any provision for any grace. His was a form of the unpardonable sin.
Humanity is a separate creation from the angels. I know mormonism doesn’t teach that, but you asked MY interpretation as a Christian.
***
This scripture is very clear
Job 38
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Isa 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Lucifer was one of the sons of God
BTW
Rev. 22: 16
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
I guess that pesky little word IF is very hard to figger out at times; eh?
You’re NUTS!
(Must be too much education...)
;^)
| You are kidding; Right? [Elsie] |
Your 'question' seems to be mostly mere ASSUMPTION/strawman.
There you go AGAIN!!
Posting BIBLE verese that may or not be TRANSLATED right!
How can you keep doing this with all of the doubt that it must incur?
THIS one is NOT!
"Mother; I have learned that PRESBYTERIANism is not true."
THESE are too!
THIS is too!
The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2010 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy. |
HOW can be ASSURED of that when your FOUNDER says that certain parts of the BIBLE are NOT translated correctly?
It is interesting that the same people who criticise those who give a selective presentation of the facts in one instance will use a selection presentation for their own purposes in another.
Well, it is real easy to get our focus on pleasing others instead of God, but truly, we’re the ones who choose to do it, no one makes us. Today our churches are full of unbelievers. The tares are even in the pulpit teaching false doctrine and blindly leading others. The only way to know the difference between the false and the true is to know the Word of God
However i have found that the majority of the people at that time just studied the scriptures as guided by the pastor and took his meaning as gospel they did not really read the scriptures for them selves.
We would take turns reading scripture, if we did not know what a word meant or could not even pronounce it, no big deal.
I think if i was in charge of a Bible study i would sub jest some homework, for some of these words that you suspect is not understood, in other words have them read the Bible and find out what they mean.
I am sure much of this does not have any thing to do with faith, but teaching false doctrine is not good works either.
As i was leaving church one day the preacher came up to me and said, my boy when are you going to get rid of those bad habits?
I thought gee whiz, how could he know about my weakness for the opposite sex, but i jokingly said, what bad habits? he replied, smoking of course.
Yeah right, hear i was you might say in a straight jacket over pretty women and the only sin to him was smoking.
Well here i am going on 75 and i still enjoy smoking, and i still like pretty women, however i have improved some what on that point so i don,t really know if i would enjoy them or not, I am not meaning this to be a boast as it may sound.
One of Gods commandments is, thou shall not lie.
May God be with you also.
I got to be Emma Hale in a mormon Christmas program once.
You offered the following from Revelations:
Rev. 22: 16 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
But prior to that passage, you offered another assignment for the identity:
Isa 14 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Because you are a devout Mormon, I will take your post to be an effort to defend the notion that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, designated in your quoted passages as 'morning stars' who sang together as the sons of god shouted for joy. Then you compound the confusion by stating, "Lucifer was one of the sons of God." So, Resty, was this Lucifer to whom you refer one of the morning stars, or was this Lucifer one of the sons of god? I hope you see the duplicitous nature of your post, because if you actually believe you have made some profound discovery which supports the Mormonism heresies that Jesus and Lucifer were/are brothers, then you are about to be very disappointed. Here's why: The passage from Isaiah 14 as it existed from around 600 BC to the fourth century when St. Jerome translated the Septuagint into Latin, producing the Latin Vulgate edition, did not have the name Lucifer in it. It could not have since 'Lucifer' is a Latin name and Latin didn't even exist in Isaiah's day.
Additionally, if you read the passage in Isaiah and read the preceding chapter and subsequent verse from where you lifted your supposed proof text, you will perhaps understand that Isaiah was referring to a Babylonian king who had been vexing the Israelites, a man who strutted his stuff in shining raiment before the palace denizens. It is this king whom Isaiah refers to as fallen from his self-appointed lofty perch.
And finally, if you choose to cite Revelations 22:16, and we would presume that you meant for that to refer to Jesus not your 'Lucifer', then what do you make of the designation in Isaiah which you quoted as handed down int he King James edition, since you have asserted that Lucifer is a son of god? I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but you have sown confusion and assumed facts not in evidence. Thus you are trying to teach error.
Your Joseph Smith supposedly offered a direct quote from Isaiah of 600BC writing, as uttered from the mouth of one of Smith's imaginary Nephites referring to Hebrew scripture. Of course Smith was merely quoting from the King James Bible where the name designation made by Jerome int he fourth century used a Latin name to refer to the description Isaiah was giving of the fallen Babylonian king who presumed to make of himself more than he was by dressing himself in clothes that would reflect huge amounts of light, making his appear to shine, glisten, radiate light.
This same erroneous designation of Lucifer (name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre) is found in Smith's imaginative Pearl of Greta Price and the Doctrines and Covenants.
Resty, your trying to assert that an imaginary being is a brother to Word made flesh Who dwelt among us. But it is not surprising, once the methodology and faulty doctrines of Mormonism are understood. I pray someday you awaken to the Truth that your self-proclaimed prophet, Joseph Smith, fabricated a great lie and piled upon that great lie a myriad of follow-up lies to support his imaginings, which lies have lead you astray but from which you finally escaped.
>I am sure much of this does not have any thing to do with faith, but teaching false doctrine is not good works either.<
It has everything to do with faith, the BUILDING UP of your faith in the TRUTH!
Ah, yes, smoking...two Scriptures helped me greatly in that area, which I memorized at the time (many years ago):
1 Corinthians 10:31, Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
—I had to admit that my smoking didn’t glorify the Lord.
1 Corinthians 6:19, Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
—The verse is in the context of immorality (see v. 18), but my spirit understood that it applied to all things that I did, since His Spirit is living inside of me. I knew the smoking was detrimental to my body, which belongs to Him.
It was pretty hard, as I started out mostly doing it “in the flesh,” albeit I was praying and reminding myself of the Scriptures and was helped by them, as I cut down the number of cigarettes. I really wanted to quit and just couldn’t seem to. Finally, I was so frustrated at my many starts and failures, I cried out to the Lord to give me a real HATRED of the habit. [I hated smelling like smoke,I hated all the holes I burned in my clothes, I hated the way I felt in the morning, and I hated the fact that I allowed myself to be controlled by it, but I didn’t hate the actual doing of it.]
And praise the Lord, He did it, He set me free!
Rev. 22: 16 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Resty, are you trying to sow confusion or do you really want to know how to reconcile the confusion in your post?...
***
The only confusion around here is how you can spin and twist anothers words!
Maybe you are uncomfortable with
Job 38
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Are you denying the Morning stars sang togethner?
Thanks,
I’ve started attending a Bible believing, Bible teaching non-denominational church. Also meet with an assoc. Pastor during the week to get some one on one Bible instruction.
FRegards,
SZ
Yup. Jesus being the "savior" is just a lucky accident of birth order. It really could have been any one of us. Well, any *man*.
Who are you talking to????
Fantastic!
BTW, enjoyed your home page...my brother served in Desert Storm too, as jet mechanic, now retired & living in Albuquerque.
Very well said Turk.
Resty, pay attention. You have a right to believe as you wish. We (Christians) will never stop fighting for the truth.
Paul taught:
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
In turn the Apostles chose men like Timothy, Timothy chose Bishops and deacons, these were all to be men and women of good works.
Would any one want the church to be run by people with out good works?
Was every one chosen to be a bishop or deacon or any kind of worker in the church? no, they had to be people of good works.
There were also other qualifications.
Tim ch 5, v 9,10
Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children,
if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
People with out these qualifications was not to be in the church, they were not to be members, bodily speaking.
Titus ch 5,thu 8
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
The apostles were not so naive that they thought they could tell the whole world what works they should do and what they should not do, but they had authority over the church and they said who was to be members and who should not be members of the church body.
It was their job to preach the gospel to all the world, not to make every one church members, and they have done it.
Now its up to each one of us and God, Only God knows our hearts.
While I agree with the premis of you post I would suggest that the passage in Isaiah is in fact talking about Lucifer (Satan or whatever name you would prefer ascribe). Keep in mind that many times in Scripture the “kings” coming against the people of Israel are referred to as being controlled by Lucifer and the text is actually referring to the entity (Lucifer) who controls or influences that king.
And that's "how to get to heaven". By believing.
I know. It seems too easy. But I'm telling you, it is hard, hard, hard. Took me almost 50 years to let all that religious junk go and shed my pride.
My statement was tongue and cheek towards the anti Mormons here who are always trashing my faith...
I am Mormon we are Christians no matter how you try to marginalized us.
Fixed for us all.
All we have to do is be absolutely perfect. Oh wait, nobody can! Oh noes!
It isn’t about trashing the Mormon faith...it’s about revealing truth and exposing falsehoods.... Some would make it more complicated than it is by playing “victim”...the very thing the Mormon church consistantly encourages it’s members to do...a deception used to ‘escape’ the truth when all arguements made by Mormons fail.
Works are fruit. You can tell a dead tree by the lack of fruit.
We will all be judged Stourme, every single one of us, believers or not. Every hidden dirty ugly thing we ever did will be exposed and laid out.
The only question is, do you want to be judged on your own merits, or have Jesus cover for you?
Someone has to die as payment for your sin. If you don't beleive and allow Jesus to take the rap for you, there's only one other choice - you. Forever. Because you are not God's Son and you will not rise again.
I don't know about you, but I'm not looking forward to judgement. However, I have accepted the offer God made to me to let Jesus take my punishment. This blows me away!!!! Why me????
And around we go....
Well I testify that the real Jesus Christthe only begotten Son of Heavenly Father is the head of the His Church which I belong too...
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints!
Absolutely none of the verses you posted counter what the bible says. Angels and humans are not the same species, not the same ontologically, nor are they the same creation.
A very common mistake is to confuse “what it takes to be saved (go to heaven)” and “how we are commanded to live”.
We are told to do many things, but these things are so that ONCE WE HAVE BELIEVED AND BEEN SAVED, we can please God and represent Him well.
If we don’t do them, our rewards will be lesser when we get to heaven.
I'm limited in my total knowledge, but I tend to use a system to seek discernment. If one has a sound foundation in the Gospel, many difficult questions open up for discernment which the natural mind would not see. I will try to confine my remarks to italics, for clarity.
From your post:
A couple things surface.
a. Jesus makes it very clear that only a few people will actually be allowed into heaven. [There are at least two groups of humans found in the scenes in Heaven: the Bride is one, and we know these are the body of believers who have 'kept their lamps trimmed, ready for the sudden calling out'; the witnesses at the marriage of The Lamb and the Bride are another group, and that group is described as so great a number that they can't be counted ... using the math of the ancient world. It is vital to note--according to the story Jesus related regarding being at the wedding without the proper garment--that both of these groups, and in fact any human who is in Heaven, will be there ONLY because Christ died for them. There is no residency in Heaven for a human that is not covered by the Blood of the Lamb of God.
b. He's talking about people who believe. Who else would be calling him Lord and try to make the case that they have known him. But the Lord casts them off anyway. [You are conflating different scenes in the future and thus becoming confused on the fundamentals. A wedding and a judgment seat are two very different scenes. Those at the judgment who plea that they did such great works in His name yet are told to depart He never knew them are the ones who believed their works would earn them God's Grace when it came to the judgment. The Bride of Christ will not be standing to be judged.]
c. His audience is believers.[In some scenes the audience is believers, but in other scenes His audience are those who plead they are believers based upon their works which they deem good enough. A believer is one who faiths (yes, as in a verb, an action word) in Jesus Christ as their Deliverer, their Savior, their Redeemer, the One Whom sends His Holy Spirit to dwell in them for the remainder of their life as a believer, a faither.]The question (with a couple parts)
1. 2000 years of christianity; and for 1700 yrs the entire western world were believers; so who's getting cast out?
2. Among all the believers for 2000 yrs.. who are the few?
3. Since your beliefs are the same as all theirs... what's the difference?
To answer your questions and have the answers be intelligible requires some fundamental beliefs upon which one relies when trying to discern the Truth in a morass of fiction. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the message of God's Grace in Christ Jesus, is that in these last days, God pours His Spirit into those who trust in His atonement for their unworthiness to be residents in His presence (see Philippians 3:20). I sincerely hope you have read this far, because here's the Gospel of Grace in a nutshell, opened up to receive the meat of the gift: No man can be good enough to generate the nature of God in the human soul/spirit; Jesus walked totally righteous before humankind because His seed--the Holy Spirit of God Almighty--remained within Him until the moment God withdrew His Spirit from Jesus so that Jesus could die the death of one accused IN OUR PLACE. But the justification of God is by faith, so God raised Him up from death, justified and the Holy Spirit again indwelling Him. By faith we too have that same Holy Spirit come into our human spirit, in order to renew our soul to conform to the image of God's Son. It is a lifelong process this conforming, this trans-formative process accomplished by our obedience to His urging as He changes our want to so that we become a new creation in Christ Jesus.
Now to your questions, with my feeble efforts to answer in blue ... and your questions are formidable, and need answering especially in light of the topic of this thread and subsequent exchanges, so thank you for asking them:
1. 2000 years of christianity; and for 1700 yrs the entire western world were believers; so who's getting cast out? Being believers and being trusters are two distinctly different things. As you've read, the demons believe and tremble.
First, the Cross of Christ, the Redemption of 'faithers', reaches back to Adam, it is not a mere 2000 years segment. How? By faith: faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Recall what Jesus told the Jews who questioned Him, that those patriarchs 'rejoiced to see His day'.
Second, those who trust, who 'faithe' (verb, 'to faithe') in the Promises of God are the believers, not just those who mouth a belief in Whom Jesus was or is. A true faither has a daily walk in which he or she relies upon the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead their transformation from a child of Adam to a child of God. On my profile page, I tried to explain this word 'faithing' because it is an action word not a noun, as Jesus taught it and Paul and others like James explained it.
A Jew, prior to the birth of Jesus, was faithing in the Promises of God by trying to meet the lofty, unreachable in human effort, standard of the Law, the ten commandments. So powerful was this drive to live up to the standards set in the Ten Commandments that Jews followed along behind Paul and Silas trying to get Christians to live by the laws also, a feat which no human of int he 'strength of their flesh' can accomplish. It takes the nature of God to exhibit the life of God, and a Christian accomplishes this only when he or she allows His nature within them to direct the behavior of them. But in Him we have Liberty! The yolk is easy, the burden light, if we use Paul's suggestions for walking in the Spirit.Paul explained this faithing of the patriarchs by referencing Abraham who lived before the Law was given. It was by faith that Abraham was found righteous, not by works of the Law which had not yet been given. Abraham's faith was exhibited in his actions. The Prophet Joel offered that someday God would put inside faithers His Spirit, a new Spirit. After the Cross, descendants of Adam could then be renewed from within, by the indwelling presence of God's Spirit.
On a side note: It is interesting to notice how human Abraham and Sarah were, in that they doubted for a time that God was going to fulfill His promise, so they used Hagar as a surrogate to beget Ishmael. But God did follow through with His promise to Abraham and Sarah, with the birth of Isaac. And this child was precious to Abraham because he was the living proof of God fulfilling His Promises.
2. Among all the believers for 2000 yrs.. who are the few? You can figure this one out based upon the faithing technique described in the first answer. The smaller of the two groups who show up in Heaven are the Bride of Christ. These are they who trimmed their lamps and remained ready. Jesus used the allegory of Jewish wedding process when He designated this group. It is these of whom Paul writes in his IThess4 passage referring to the calling out, the rapture of the Church. A second group--still few compared to all of humankind--will also be at the wedding feast which follows the wedding. This group will not be the Bride, but they will be in Heaven because God finds they faithe in God's Promises even if they did not accept the Holy Spirit in their human spirit while alive on earth (think those who never heard the Gospel preached by mouth or by reading the scriptures).
3. Since your beliefs are the same as all theirs... what's the difference? At this point, do you still wish to assert 'your beliefs are the same as all theirs'? I think you know there are profound fundamental differences.
Well, do you only talk to people who agree with you Stourme? Why are you here then? Go caucus something with Restornu.
Let me be the first to tell you that these words were WRITTEN in Greek!
When did THIS rule get written?
The first time in the entire history of FR that someone was whiney enough to complain about it. Pass the tissues please.
It was not the first time.
Those in the Telestial & Terrestrial Kingdom are saved by grace...
I know the words and how they are used can get confusing
Rev 22
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Well, considering how the individual since that incident has squirmed, wiggled and did everything to divert the discussion away from the point where he was hammered by the scripture - it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, there is a cheese shortage to go with all the whine.
LOL resty - your posse would disagree with that - they have clearly stated that we must meet certain qualification to merit that grace. Perhaps y'all need to caucus to get your stories straight.
If what you say is true, that you believe your church is under His headship there is little any can say which can alter that "belief". But the facts do speak for themselves that the Christian community overall does not see the LDS as Christian. Only those in the LDS claim otherwise.... claiming and believing something does not make it so no matter how the LDS tries to reinvent itself to be more palatable to the Christian community...LDS continues to believe in that which opposes the basic tenants the Christian faith. Claiming belief in Christ? Islam believes as well, so does the enemy of men's souls...the question would then remain...which Christ?...LDS Christ is a counterfeit Christ masquerading and misleading those who follow...and will remain as such...the leadership welds much power and money and are not about to let that go..thus the membership will alaways be their "money generating machine" to sustain them.
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