Skip to comments.LDS View of God Contradicts the Bible
Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
Then why all the work to make themselves "righteous"?
If/should any TB Mormon disagree with the "confession" or "profession" I laid out in the previous post (#599), here is an alternative profession of non-faith in the Lds "prophets"...and the point is...cognitively and faith commitment/faith consistency wise, Mormons really need to choose one of these two oaths (or ones so similarly written):
"I John or Jane Mormon
profess that the quotations below made by Lds "prophets" and general authorities and leaders are false.
I repudiate such beliefs in these other-worldly faith commitments expressed by these Mormon leaders...
as I believe God is a God of grace, mercy, and compassion
who will not limit those living in His presence for eternity
on the basis of such things as their singleness...
or the lack of membership in the Mormon church."
John or Jane Mormon .
Relevant Quotations from Mormon "prophets," general authorities and leaders:
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Lds "prophet": "Those who were honorable men who will be permitted to go to the terrestrial kingdom will be blessed with ministrations from the celestial kingdom. They will be privileged with visitations from Jesus Christ but will be denied the presence of the Father." (Source: Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 1, p. 81; context was he was writing about the so-called "middle kingdom of heaven" -- called the terrestial kingdom by Lds)
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Lds "prophet": "NOT HALF THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO BE SAVED. Those who receive the fulness will be privileged to view the face of our Father. There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:15)
Lds church official publication: resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God we need His grace to purify and perfect us after all we can do (2 Nephi 25:23). (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77)
Encyclopedia of Mormonism: Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available only in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is reserved for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and a wife. It means not only living in Gods presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection. (Encylopedia of Mormonism, 2:479)
George Albert Smith, 8th Lds "prophet": "There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quicked telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end." (Conference Reports, October 1945, p. 172)
Spencer W. Kimball, 12th Lds "prophet": "No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 243-244)
I, not being an astronomur, wuz wunderin’. ;o)
Try answering with what you believe rather than the spin which parses the words to allow nearly any interpretation you want for the phrasing. You post clearly makes residency conditional —’can’— as if the Holy Spirit will yoyo back and forth, in and out, based upon how well you’re doing during a particular phase of life. That may be the god of Mormonism’s way, but it is NOT the way of I AM. You can accept the Crucifixion of Jesus as your substitutionary atonement only ONCE. You cannot crucifiy again the Lord of Glory. [Do you need the Bible passage which teaches that? ... You seem familiar with the Bible so that I’m sure you know where Paul asserted that Truth.]
In my experience the work comes from a love of God and fellowman and a desire to serve.
Well the reason I said “can”, is that it is possible to s quench the Spirit through sin (1 Thess 5:19) and therefore lose its influence.
Lucifer was one of the sons of God
No Lucifer was never a son of God...
God only ever had one begotten son, the LORD Jesus Christ...
Lucifer was never human or God...
Lucifer was a created being, an angel who was the music director in Heaven...
He thought he was greater than God and rebelled ...
he convinved 1/3 of the angels to rebel with him...
God picked him up and tossed him out of Heaven along with thise 1/3 angels who rebelled with him...
Lucifer became Satan the devil and the 1/3 angels became demons...
Lucifer/Satan is never to be worshipped or obeyed...he has nothing to do with God...
Lucifer/Satan is evil...he lies all the time...and tempts humans to rebel against God and sin...
Lucifer/Satan wants to keep as many humans out of Heaven as he can...
The end of Lucifer/Satan and his demons is a pit of fire...
The passage you posted also seems to indicate that having the Holy Spirit is conditional upon the works of the individual floowing the ‘commandments’. Jesus said there is one thing which God requires to do the work, and Jesus also gave two commandments which fullfill all the law and the prophets. Smith &co have added a whole lot to those two commandments. And the commandments are the nautral outworking of God’s Life in the human spirit, causing the nature of God to come forth int he behavior of the faither. That is the effective, applied Gospel of Grace in Christ Jesus, that God lives in the believer, not because the believer live righteously enough that God will then come in. Faithing is an action word, but the intiial act of being Born Again is what makes the faithing happen, not the human will to do all that you can do to be worthy.
I’m not sure what you mean by “faithing” — I haven’t heard that word before.
Does your religion teach that everyone who is not a Mormon is a gentile, including Jews?
I am really sorry that you do not read my posts to you inw hich I’ve noted on more than one occasion that the explanation is on my profile page. Have a safe evening, I’m off to watch Glenn Beck and take notes.
By Sandra Tanner
Whenever an evangelical Christian and a Latter-day Saint engage in a doctrinal discussion they encounter the problem of terminology. LDS leaders use the standard vocabulary of Christianity but with radically different definitions. A Christian should never take for granted that his/her LDS friend understands common Christian terms in the biblical way.
Because the Bible has many warnings about false prophets (Matthew 24:11, 24; 2 Corinthians 11:4, 13; 1 John 4:1) and people teaching strange doctrines (2 Peter 2:12; Galatians 1:6-8; Hebrews 13:9), it is essential that we understand what the Bible says on various doctrines.
The references below will demonstrate that the LDS Church is indeed teaching a different god and a counterfeit gospel, thus offering a false hope.
The following list of Christian terms will be defined by LDS sources and then by biblical quotes. While this is not a complete list of terminology differences, it will cover the most basic ones. For a more detailed look at terminology differences, see The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism.
Personally I understand the scripture....but I also know God. And He knows our hearts.
Just Going by what the Book says:
Romans 10 Vs 9-11: (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
So, there is no self-serving goal such as reaching a "celestial kingdom" involved? Then why all the temple requirements and ceremonies? Love of God and a desire to serve?
Millions have loved God and served man through the years without all the rigamarole of chants and hand signals and proscribed underwear. Of course, the pat answer is that is what proxy baptism is for. Thankfully, the world's Christian population doesn't buy that. It's a shame that so many do literally, buy it.
Why? Are you in a position to decide what Mormons need to do?
The loud bumping sounds you will hear are more mormon apostles and prophets being tossed under the bus by mormon apologists.
Log: Are you in a position to decide what Mormons need to do?
Log have you ever said those same words to Hinckley or Munson...
or Oakes or Peterson
Or one of the first presidency
or a mormon apostle or a mormon elder...
or one of a 70
or one of the 12 apostles...
or your bishop, stake president, ward president...
mission president, MTC president,
BYU president, BYU professor...
husband, wife, father...
Then since you havent...
Then why did you ask C that ???
"The nastier the better."
Yes, yes let's demonstrate what you're talking about shall we?
You talk about nastiness, which is particularly lame, as if that substantiates or quantifies any of the lies in the post.
Unlike others on the board, I like to use actual comments/comparisons/quotes, much more objective and factual. They cant be denied, one can only try to ignore them. And then, pop up again and make the same allegations/accusations (bear false witness) IOW, lie about FReepers.
Lets see how your nondescript use of the word nastiness compares to actual mormon comments and quotes shall we?
Antis and any who question mormonism;
accused of being accessories to murder
accused of being accessories to arson
compared to Gadianton robbers
compared to pigs
behave like swine
are pigs in need of washing
are dishonest (false allegation, never addressed by the mormon)
are yammering mocking demons
are spewers of hate
are twisted thinkers
are liars (false allegation, never addressed by the mormon)
Just to name a few.
These are actual comments/comparisons/quotes from mormons directed at any they deem "worthy" of scorn or discrediting.
K! THX for playing! Bye!
I was just saying.....
Our God knows us...He knows everything. He knows our hearts...our minds, our everything.
And He knows the hearts of those that can't speak......
You missed an early FI fav
Hosing the pigs...
Sometimes when you formalize something, you distinguish informal commitments already established.
Example: Canonization of the Bible: Yes, this was a formal commitment; but it was based upon what was already comprehensively informally recognized within the Church.
'Twas more a "confirmation" than a "new decision" from scratch.
It's in that spirit I offer these up. I'm not really drawing up any truth commitment that is NOT already loosely or informally held by Mormons -- both those who have given the rough content within posts #599 and #602 some past or present conscious consideration...and those for whom it's been just underneath the surface.
(By "commitment" I mean a commitment to contradictory truth claims...to take one side or the other).
I'm merely "formalizing" what Mormons already loosely hold...These oaths were simply meant to draw a relief-like "word map" -- as does a 3-dimensional map does of mountains and hills and valleys.
It's not the minute details of what I wrote in posts #599 & #602 that's pertinent...I mean, Mormons can choose to "formalize" what I wrote in any way they want to...however...Logo, please answer me this:
Don't you think who gets to be with Heavenly Father in heaven forever is the very heart of the gospel? (It certainly is the Biblical Christian gospel.)
I'm very interested in your opinion on that Q from a Mormon perspective: Don't you think this same Q also either is -- or needs to be -- at the very heart of the Mormon gospel as well?
So when you ask "why" in relation to me...well, who cares about me? What's important is the truth represented there. Which version of that "truth" will John or Jane Mormon commit to? That's what's at stake.
And why is that?
Because truth beckons us to either...
...commit to it by formally and publicly embracing it...
...or run away from it...
...it doesn't leave the luxury of a "neutral middle ground" option.
I can change it to or add "hosing the pigs" but would like the entire quote if you have it.
I would like to keep it in "context" to avoid being accused of something else not already on the list. (Not that it really matters, the list is truncated already and I could use some more recent examples.)
Aaaaah, the classics . . . .
I know you knew I knew.
It was primarily for the edification of any who don't know and don't know that they don't know.
I know this too. You are my brother, (or sister- pretty sure it's brother though) in the Lord Jesus.
A complete aside:
My wife had back surgery Friday and is still in the hospital, I hope and pray she gets to come home tomorrow and ask for all my brother and sisters prayers for her.
We take the Adam-God phenomenom doctrine and slide it over to that little trash can, and thats that!
Well...since I’m relatively new [when compared to you “original” FI’s] to this, I will need edification on “the classics”.
Since it appears there are some who aren’t into the current terms being bandied about. ;^)
I knew that you knew that I knew....ha!
Yeah....I'm a bro. And I appreciate you...
Sorry to hear about your wife....I hope she recovers quickly, and comes home.
I wish I lived near...so to help.
Better than getting sniped, swiped, sucked under...and accused of murder and arson.
That is God instruction to each of us. You cannot change other people's attitude. Only God can do that. Heck, you can't even change your own without God's help. If someone wants to nitpick on you, then you should just accept it and
2) pray that God isn't giving you this problem as chastisement because of your foolishness.
Oh my, dates escape me, at least 2-3 years ago, the others could probably fill the gaps better. It was a time when the imams kinda jelled together against the rampant mormon prosletization and domination of the forum. Faced with this opposition the mormons decided that they would flood (ie hose) the forum with 'pro-mormon' threads in an attempt to overwhelm us 'pigs' with too much to respond to. It was a real donnybrook of a few months. The mormon comments towards us were less than charitable IIRC.
LOL you have a point there. . .
Prayer tree activated...I hope and pray things go well.
prayer bump for graybeard
Almost Mormon like isn’t it..
Note to self:
Don’t read these threads. You know how sad they make you.
Prayer bump for Graybeard’s wife ... hope that’s not to verbose.
Many WRONG ideas fill 'christians' heads as to how they are saved as well; and they've been in 'church' for YEARS!
Sure that's not from HERESY Chapter 3?
Keep Looking Up!
I noticed it, too.
I think faith in would be correct.
Jesus can still add His atonement to their great keeping of commandments, can’t he? /sarc
Why? Are you in a position to decide what Mormons need to do?
To Whom It May Concern:
Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy
I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.
One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.
There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:
I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.
Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.
35. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
36. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
37. They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
38. the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President
Ya left out the WOODCHUCKS!
Sometimes the obfuscation and smoke and mirrors even work in today's world despite the truth being so prevalent o the net and such. While numbers are down the magic act is still bringing in a few recruits.
You can probably recognize them when they're out and about.