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Legalism is false doctrine !
Antinomianism and Salvation. ^ | August 2010 | Gart O'Toole

Posted on 11/06/2010 3:55:37 PM PDT by Benchim

There are millions of church going believers who really are confused and conflicted on central issues of the faith. Issue 1: Are you really saved? You may say "Yes" but you may not be sure because of the legal requirements of the group you joined. Issue 2: When do I receive my salvation? When I believe or when I die after a trial to determine if I did all the right things like baptism, repentance ,lived in obedience, confession , "born again", absolution from the priesthood,tithed,lived sinless and on and on. Did you observe the sabath? was your "church" attendance acceptable to God? By the way, you did not do this guilt trip on your own. You were constantly "coached" into these ambiguities by the institutional "Church" to better control their flock and to extract attendance and money.

(Excerpt) Read more at antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: antinomianism; gospel; legalism; salvation; vanity
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Paul wrote 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament to demolish the law and show that Belief is all you need to be saved. John said it best in 3:16. Professional Christians want you to be left in the dark for personal gain.
1 posted on 11/06/2010 3:55:39 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: Benchim

James 2:24


2 posted on 11/06/2010 4:00:35 PM PDT by rwilson99
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To: rwilson99
The Epistle of James should not be listed with the canonical books of the New Testament. It was most likely written by a Jew who did not know Christ. I would place it with the pseudepigrapha, and I certainly would not base any of my beliefs from James.
3 posted on 11/06/2010 4:15:20 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: Benchim
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." - Matthew 10:22

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:13

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Mark 13:13

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." - John 8:31

4 posted on 11/06/2010 4:21:13 PM PDT by CASchack
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To: Nosterrex

I agree totally. James was the jealous brother of Jesus and was extremely envious of his deity and retaliated with his paper and pen. Just throw it out. They compiled the Bible in 362 and made many errors in the assembly of material.


5 posted on 11/06/2010 4:31:04 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: Benchim

Professional Christians want you to be left in the dark for personal gain.

...and for personal self-satisfaction.

6 posted on 11/06/2010 4:40:44 PM PDT by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: Benchim

A mormonism apologist asserted just today that having the Holy Spirit in you is not enough, that it is not salvation until your works finish the job! (FR search the posts of ‘Stourme’, perhaps you can help him awaken to salvation and not continue to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.


7 posted on 11/06/2010 4:47:23 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: CASchack

When asked by Jews what is the work God requires for salvation, do you know what Jesus replied?


8 posted on 11/06/2010 4:49:56 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Benchim

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house. Nothing more. Jesus spent much of His time explaining that anything a man could do would never be good enough. His was a complete and final sacrifice for our salvation. We don’t even make that decision on our own without His first calling us. Just as He did with Abraham.


9 posted on 11/06/2010 4:50:36 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CASchack
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:13

What are you going to endure??? And to the end of what???

10 posted on 11/06/2010 4:53:45 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: CynicalBear

Even my faith in the vicarious atonement accomplished by Jesus, if its efficacy depends on the resolve of my will, is not reliable. I can only resort to confidence in the faith instilled in me by the grace of God, as revealed in Ephesians 2:8-9 (and other like passages).


11 posted on 11/06/2010 4:59:08 PM PDT by Elsiejay (.)
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To: Benchim

http://www.faithfacts.org/bible-101/christian-cram-course

The church of Christ is the bastion of legalism. See this:

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/church-of-christ


12 posted on 11/06/2010 5:08:07 PM PDT by grumpa (VP)
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To: grumpa

Are you saying CC believes the thief on the cross was not baptized, therefore Jesus must have been a liar?


13 posted on 11/06/2010 5:23:45 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL OR REBEL! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: grumpa

Great links! Thanks for posting them here.


14 posted on 11/06/2010 5:24:58 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Elsiejay

>>I can only resort to confidence in the faith instilled in me by the grace of God, as revealed in Ephesians 2:8-9 (and other like passages).<<

Thus my comment about the covenant with Abraham. If you read that account you will remember that God put Abraham in a deep sleep and God handled both sides of the covenant. God does the same with us. We have been chosen and God draws us to Him lest we should boast.


15 posted on 11/06/2010 5:33:32 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: MHGinTN; Iscool

Matthew 25 spells it out for you.


16 posted on 11/06/2010 5:37:57 PM PDT by CASchack
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To: Benchim

“Look here sir! There are hundreds of religions in this country, and the followers of some think theirs is the only right one. How can poor, plain men like us find out what really is the truth?”

We generally reply something like this. “Hundreds of religions you say? That is strange; I’ve heard of only two.”

“Oh, but surely you know there are more than that?”

“Not at all, sir, I find, I admit, many shades of differences in the opinions of those compromising the two great schools; but after all there are but two. The one covers all who expect salvation by DOING; the other, all who have been saved BY SOMETHING DONE. So you see the question is very simple. Can you save yourself, or must you be saved by another? If you can be your own saviour, you do not need to listen. If you cannot, you may well want to learn about Jesus Christ and the message of the cross.

-Modified from H.A. Ironside


17 posted on 11/06/2010 5:37:57 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: MHGinTN; greyfoxx39; All
A mormonism apologist asserted just today that having the Holy Spirit in you is not enough, that it is not salvation until your works finish the job!

If you look at Lds.org like I did -- every single entry they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?

It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing
(2) The Law of Chastity

That's interesting, too...'cause you would think that based upon what Joseph Smith said, the Law of Baptizing dead people would be #1. But it's not stressed more than the above (& doesn't rank above many other Mormon "laws").

Joseph Smith: “The GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS WORLD that God has placed upon us is to seek after our dead.” (Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356)

Mormons are you obeying this? Are you doing three-year missions to the dead to outdo your two- year missions to the living?

If I was a gambler, I could probably wage a million $ that not a single Mormon could name EVERY law mentioned by Lds general authorities on Lds.org. [What a crying shame, 'cause even Joseph Smith said: “We cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 256.)]

And Mormons are shooting for the highest degree by way of perfect obedience??????

For the Christian, do we follow a "law" of tithing?

No. Giving is an inside-out thing, done from the heart, encouraged by God as part of being godly.

Mormons? They make it an outside-in lock-up, imposed upon from without -- or you're out (of the temple, that is). No chance for special "callings" in the church; don't get to see your son or daughter married in the temple. No "forever family." No living with Heavenly Father forever. You could pay 9.99% of your income, and still be disqualified from all the above...because you broke their man-made "law."

BTW...the Mormon "law of chastity" does the same thing as the Mormon "law of tithing": It attempts to impose a man-made law from the outside-in. Now am I saying singles should not be chaste and marrieds should not remain faithful to their spouse? Not at all; of course we exercise self-control. But Jesus said no matter whether you engage in physical adultery, God looks at the heart...and if you lust, you have already broken any boundary of heart purity/chasteness.

Mormons (and many Christian church members, too) consistently want to measure things by external appearances. God already knows our hearts perfectly. We can't change His omniscience and omnipresence. That's why Jesus complimented the Pharisees on their outward righteousness and condemned them on their inward tombstone-like lives.

Too many Mormons and even members of Christian churches compare out their outward religious lives to the rest of the world, and think they are way out front of the race to heaven.

But God doesn't judge us that way.
It's pass or fail. (James says if we stumble at only one part of the Law, we have broken ALL of it -- James 2:10).
It's inside and outside.
It's internal and external.

All: Stay away from such religious legalism as mentioned above; and, if you're already entrapped in it, run away. Jesus condemned it for a very good reason!

18 posted on 11/06/2010 5:39:00 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Excellent post!

"So you see the question is very simple. Can you save yourself, or must you be saved by another? If you can be your own saviour, you do not need to listen. If you cannot, you may well want to learn about Jesus Christ and the message of the cross."

19 posted on 11/06/2010 5:43:31 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: MHGinTN; greyfoxx39; All
A mormonism apologist asserted just today that having the Holy Spirit in you is not enough, that it is not salvation until your works finish the job!

According to Mormon writings, what makes you "worthy?" Your perfection (3 Nephi 12:48; Mt. 5:48)

[Whereas, in contrast, a good definition of a "Christian" is someone already perfect in the Father's eyes thru Jesus sacrificial death (Heb. 10:14) -- where His perfect righteousness is substituted for our imperfect righteousness. (1 Cor. 1:30). Heb. 10:14 ...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.]

Just to be sure, I looked up "worthiness" (a key Lds concept) in the 1977 "Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" published by church-owned Deseret Publishers.

I found verses like Doctrine & Covenants 59:4: "And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me."

"Commandments not a few"? -- sounds like a long checklist to me.

I then looked at the 1979 "Topical Guide" in the Lds version of its KJV -- and turned to the "worthiness" entry there: It tells me right up top its related to the concept of "qualifying for" & then proceeds to verses like D&C 31:5: "Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Wherefore, your family shall live."

Ah. There it is: The Mormon "strategy." Don't "trust" for your salvation, "thrust in your sickle"

So it sounds like the Mormon god wants plenty of soul labor -- paid labor -- spiritual hirelings -- earned labor for salvation. No free gifts here. No grace here. Just follow the rules, ma'am.

Indeed, the LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to make it to the highest degree of afterlife:
(1) You have to be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You have to tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You have to obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You have to get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed
(5) You have to have as many children as possible
(6) You have to perform temple work for the dead
(7) You have to perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You have to be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You have to receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10)You have to have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

20 posted on 11/06/2010 5:43:57 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: MHGinTN; greyfoxx39; All
A mormonism apologist asserted just today that having the Holy Spirit in you is not enough, that it is not salvation until your works finish the job!

Past LDS "prophets" like Spencer W. Kimball & others stress that you have to earn forgiveness.

Kimball even had a chapter in a book entitled, "Keeping God's Commandments Brings Forgiveness."

But as somebody once said, “Jesus’ love is not something we earn, it earns us.” Whereas, Mormon "scripture" is more like:
That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins... D&C 76:52

In the Mormon church, obedience is ground zero.
Even before faith -- obedience earns you faith (so said Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith)
Even before forgiveness -- obedience earns you forgiveness (so says Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball)
Even before being able to be washed & cleansed from sins -- obedience must be earned (so said founding "prophet" Joseph Smith)
Even before grace -- restoration "grace for grace" only comes to Mormons "according to their works" (Helaman 12:24, Book of Mormon)

The Mormon "bad news" -- not a "good news" gospel at all -- is obedience not only now and later -- but before anything:
Before Faith,
Before forgiveness,
Before washing or cleansing from sin
Before grace

None of it kicks in for the Mormon until all the obedient works are racked up! That, my friends, is a false gospel through and through!

21 posted on 11/06/2010 5:47:54 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; greyfoxx39; MHGinTN; All
...after all there are but two. The one covers all who expect salvation by DOING; the other, all who have been saved BY SOMETHING DONE. So you see the question is very simple. Can you save yourself, or must you be saved by another? If you can be your own saviour, you do not need to listen. If you cannot, you may well want to learn about Jesus Christ and the message of the cross. -Modified from H.A. Ironside

I agree with GF...excellent framing by Ironside.

It reminded me of an Idaho pastor who has an outreach to Mormons. Late last year (Dec. 27, 2009) Idaho pastor Mark Cares said in an Idaho newspaper: "The teachings of Mormonism cause people to despair because they have so much TO DO." (Idaho Statesman)

Lds promote that they are "children of God" and that we are heirs. But heirs don't have to boast some long "to DO" checklist to become heirs -- they simply are to BE children of God.

Like any heir, I'm an heir by His death [or did you think you could become an heir & gain a "testimony" only by His life???] and by His ensuing gift to me...NOT an heir based upon...
...my works,
...my obedience,
...my self-promotional worthiness,
...my commandment-keeping,
...my bishop-graded temple recommend,
...my Word-of-wisdom keeping,
...my exaltation checklist,
...who I marry,
...if I marry,
...and all the other plural "My-s" I can ever list--as if my life was to center on... ..me
...or as if all my good works were primarily or unconsciously done to boomering back on my bootstraps to kick me into divinity...
...rather than simply to love the One I serve.

LDS: Be free from legalism!

Join us in concluding that you could never do all you could do -- including love as Jesus loves -- in order to coax God's grace to eventually kick in (2 Nephi 25:23)

(Join us in trying to stop manipulating how God thinks about you -- He already knows us perfectly -- and a temple recommend checklist is mere religiosity -- not a relationship with the true Jesus)

Do you rejoice with the truth that he who believes in Jesus HAS eternal life -- not just WILL have -- but has it NOW? (John 3:36; 5:24; 17:3; 1 John 5:10-13).

22 posted on 11/06/2010 5:55:57 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Colofornian
Here is the exact quote of the Momronism apologist:
Having the Holy Ghost in you is not an indication of salvation." It's a start. It is not the final event."

IMHO, that is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

23 posted on 11/06/2010 5:56:05 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN; grumpa

***Great links! Thanks for posting them here.***

Great links but the internal link to the Mabelvale CofC does not work.

I used to seriously date a girl at that church. We planned to get married but she and her family were determined to convert me to their church and I balked. After a while she dropped me like a hot potato but I did learn a lot about CofC doctrine and is why I waded into the Campbellite wars here on FR several years ago.


24 posted on 11/06/2010 6:08:03 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: MHGinTN
Here is the exact quote of the Momronism apologist: Having the Holy Ghost in you is not an indication of salvation." It's a start. It is not the final event." IMHO, that is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

Historically, some of Lds "apostles" (like John Widtsoe) even make improper distinctions between the Holy Ghost and the holy spirit (small "h" small "s" on the holy spirit). Widtsoe claimed that the holy spirit is an "it" -- like an influence.

To this day, Mormons will often reference the Holy Spirit as an "it." Molly Farmer did it a couple of times in a Feb. 24, 2010 article in the Mormon Times.

Joseph Smith made the same mistake.

Bottom line: If Mormons can't even figure out that the Holy Spirit is personal and is not an "it," what do you expect that they could elaborate on anything else about Him?

25 posted on 11/06/2010 6:08:12 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: CynicalBear
Thus my comment about the covenant with Abraham. If you read that account you will remember that God put Abraham in a deep sleep and God handled both sides of the covenant. God does the same with us.

Since Christians partake in the covenant with Abraham, and are explicitly his heirs.

We are saved by works. Just not our own.

26 posted on 11/06/2010 6:29:11 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Nosterrex
The Epistle of James should not be listed with the canonical books of the New Testament.

Yet James was considered consistent with the rest of the Bible until the Luther left it out of his Sixteenth Century German translation. Prods were eventually shamed into putting James back but I agree that the Epistle is totally incompatible with the various strains of Protestant doctrine. This controversy is one of the many inconsistencies that eventually leads honest Protestants back to the Rock that is Rome.

27 posted on 11/06/2010 6:31:08 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Benchim
When I believe or when I die after a trial to determine if I did all the right things like baptism, repentance ,lived in obedience, confession , "born again", absolution from the priesthood,tithed,lived sinless and on and on. Did you observe the sabath? was your "church" attendance acceptable to God?

Traditional Catholic catechism is simple enough for a six-year-old First Communion candidate to learn.

28 posted on 11/06/2010 6:34:33 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Benchim

See Romans 2:1-11 (especially verses 6, 7, 10, and 11).


29 posted on 11/06/2010 6:35:01 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Benchim
You were constantly "coached" into these ambiguities by the institutional "Church" to better control their flock and to extract attendance and money.

I agree totally. James was the jealous brother of Jesus and was extremely envious of his deity and retaliated with his paper and pen. Just throw it out. They compiled the Bible in 362 and made many errors in the assembly of material.

Are you a Christian? Are you a member of a church?

James was the jealous brother of Jesus and was extremely envious of his deity and retaliated with his paper and pen.

"Mother always liked you best"

30 posted on 11/06/2010 6:36:56 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Benchim

Sect. 164.—........As to myself, I openly confess, that I should not wish “Free-will” to be granted me, even if it could be so, nor anything else to be left in my own hands, whereby I might endeavour something towards my own salvation. And that, not merely because in so many opposing dangers, and so many assaulting devils, I could not stand and hold it fast, (in which state no man could be saved, seeing that one devil is stronger than all men;) but because, even though there were no dangers, no conflicts, no devils, I should be compelled to labour under a continual uncertainty, and to beat the air only. Nor would my conscience, even if I should live and work to all eternity, ever come to a settled certainty, how much it ought to do in order to satisfy God. For whatever work should be done, there would still remain a scrupling, whether or not it pleased God, or whether He required any thing more; as is proved in the experience of all justiciaries, and as I myself learned to my bitter cost, through so many years of my own experience.

But now, since God has put my salvation out of the way of my will, and has taken it under His own, and has promised to save me, not according to my working or manner of life, but according to His own grace and mercy, I rest fully assured and persuaded that He is faithful, and will not lie, and moreover great and powerful, so that no devils, no adversities can destroy Him, or pluck me out of His hand. “No one (saith He) shall pluck them out of My hand, because My Father which gave them Me is greater than all.” (John x. 27-28). Hence it is certain, that in this way, if all are not saved, yet some, yea, many shall be saved; whereas by the power of “Free-will,” no one whatever could be saved, but all must perish together. And moreover, we are certain and persuaded, that in this way, we please God, not from the merit of our own works, but from the favour of His mercy promised unto us; and that, if we work less, or work badly, He does not impute it unto us, but, as a Father, pardons us and makes us better.—This is the glorying which all the saints have in their God!

From BONDAGE OF THE WILL by MARTIN lUTHER


31 posted on 11/06/2010 6:50:00 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: MHGinTN

I am very sincere in my desire to help anyone confused by ant organizes religious money raiser.


32 posted on 11/06/2010 7:06:08 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Yep


33 posted on 11/06/2010 7:14:46 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: Benchim

Matthew 5:17-19. You think Paul trumps Jesus? Good luck with that.


34 posted on 11/06/2010 7:20:36 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Lee N. Field

I am a member of Eklessia. The word “Church” was a creation in the 1630s of the King James Translation, There is no “Church” in the Bible. The Greek word in the Bible meabs— “Body of believers”!! That is all believers!! You don’t need a building with a mortgage and some egomaniac who makes his house payment and big car payment out of your gift the” god”.


35 posted on 11/06/2010 7:21:17 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: Tzfat

Don’t you see ? When did Christ say that? Answer: BEFORE HE WENT TO THE CROSS!!! At which point you were saved by BELIEF in him as the son of GOD!!


36 posted on 11/06/2010 7:24:16 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: mas cerveza por favor; Nosterrex

***The Epistle of James should not be listed with the canonical books of the New Testament.***

The answer is simple.

Paul was writing to the Gentile believers as he was the Apostlt to the Gentiles.

James was writing “To the twelve tribes scattered abroad”. As on can see at the Jerusalem meeting between James and Paul, James still wanted the Jewish believers to keep the LAW of MOSES while Paul’s Gentile believers were free from that LAW.

You can’t mix Law and Grace. You can’t mix James and Paul.


37 posted on 11/06/2010 7:27:18 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
So, you mean (a) James isn't really inspired Scripture; or (b) the Holy Spirit can't make up his mind, and gives one set of rules to Paul (for the Gentiles) and a different set to James (for Jewish converts) -- although a big part of Romans is devoted precisely to teaching that Gentiles and Jews are saved on exactly the same basic, so that can't really be right, either.

When 2 Tm 3:16 says, All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work., does that include the Epistle of James?

38 posted on 11/06/2010 8:10:43 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Benchim; Lee N. Field
The word “Church” was a creation in the 1630s of the King James Translation, There is no “Church” in the Bible. The Greek word in the Bible meabs— “Body of believers”!! That is all believers!!

First, let's discuss what is "correct" in what you wrote: Ecclesia or ekklesia is indeed the underlying Greek word for "church" in the New Testament and it simply means "called-out ones"...therefore, the emphasis is on the church being flesh-and-blood, NOT a brick-and-mortar building!

And it's unfortunate that the latter has overtaken the former in Western culture (and parts of Eastern culture as well).

As for your claim that this word "church" was a creation in the 1630s by the KJ translators...well...you either didn't take very good notes from whatever "sermon" or "message" you heard that from...or, you've been fed a falsehood that you swallowed whole.

Now at this point I won't go through the entire etymology of the word, "church" -- but just to show you how wrong you are...John Wycliffe was part of a pre-reformation movement in Britain in the late 14th century. He encouraged his followers to translate Jerome's Vulgate version of the Bible into Middle English, which they accomplished between 1382-1395 -- so that was 216 years before the King James translators finished their version (1611).

Wycliffe's Bible version is online. You can see it here: Wycliffe version.

As an example of his use of the word "church," you can go here to Eph. 1:22 where you will see the Middle English spelling version, chirche: Effesies [Ephesians]

So, if your memory was "off" -- well, that "happens." But...But...But...if somebody fed you the line that the KJ translators "made it up," then you need to take that falsehood and run it right back up the line where you heard it from...And ask them why they are exporting falsehoods. (And at the same time, ask them what other tall tales were told in the name of "truth").

39 posted on 11/06/2010 8:18:51 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Colofornian

What an officious falsehood you propound. “Church” etymology, as you well know ,but do not wish to reveal ,is from the pagan concept of “circe” (from circa 900) or “kirke” (circa 1500) referring to the pagan practice of sitting in a circle and worshiping rocks. King James noticed that the practice gave control over the attendees, while Ekklesia gave him no control. The Catholic monarchy was quite ready for the change as well. Every time you see “Church” in the Bible (154 times) ,know that it was a ploy to herd idiots and should be translated “ALL BELIEVERS IN JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD!!” http://antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com/


40 posted on 11/06/2010 9:21:23 PM PDT by Benchim
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To: Benchim
you well know ,but do not wish to reveal

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

41 posted on 11/06/2010 9:26:55 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Benchim
but do not wish to reveal ,is from the pagan concept of “circe” (from circa 900) or “kirke” (circa 1500)

Tell us why, then, do the etymology books link the word "kirke" to Kurios (Greek for "Lord")?

42 posted on 11/06/2010 11:17:09 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Benchim
“Church” etymology, as you well know ,but do not wish to reveal ,is from the pagan concept of “circe”

O.E. cirice "church, public place of worship, Christians collectively," from W.Gmc. *kirika (cf. O.S. kirika, O.N. kirkja, O.Fris. zerke, M.Du. kerke, O.H.G. kirihha, Ger. Kirche), from Gk. kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE base *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful"). Phonetic spelling from c.1200, established by 16c. For vowel evolution, see bury. Gk. kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it was probably used by W.Gmc. people in their pre-Christian period. Also picked up by Slavic, via Germanic (cf. O.Slav. criky, Rus. cerkov). Romance and Celtic languages use variants of L. ecclesia. Fr. église (11c.) is from L. ecclesia.
-- from www.etymonline.com.

Random House Unabridged gives a similar etymology.

43 posted on 11/06/2010 11:30:04 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Benchim
 
 

John 6:28-29 

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


44 posted on 11/07/2010 4:28:07 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwilson99

Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem
 1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

 12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

 16 “‘After this I will return
   and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
   and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
   even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]
 18 things known from long ago.[c]

 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
 22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,

   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

 24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

   Farewell.

 30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] [d] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas
 36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. 41 He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

45 posted on 11/07/2010 4:32:42 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Benchim
They compiled the Bible in 362 and made many errors in the assembly of material.

HMmm... that is the claim of MORMONism...

46 posted on 11/07/2010 4:34:16 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MHGinTN; Stourme
 
FR search the posts of ‘Stourme’, perhaps you can help him awaken to salvation and not continue to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

 
All the modern christian churches have no more authority to preach, baptize, or administer any other ordinance of the gospel than the idolatrous Hindoos have.
The system of idolatry, invented by modern christianity, far surpasses in absurdity anything that we have ever heard of.



Each atom of the Holy Spirit is intelligent, and like all other matter has solidity, form, and size, and occupies space.

The true God He has extension, and form, and dimensions. He occupies space; has a body, parts, and passions; can go from place to place. He can eat, drink, and talk.

 


God is a spirit. A spirit is as much matter as oxygen or hydrogen.
The Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is a material being.
God the Father and God the Son cannot be everywhere present; indeed they cannot be even in two places at the same instant: but God the Holy Spirit is omnipresent - it extends through all space, with all other matter. 

Orson Pratt 
 
 

47 posted on 11/07/2010 4:38:16 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MHGinTN; CASchack
When asked by Jews what is the work God requires for salvation, do you know what Jesus replied?

Evidently not.

48 posted on 11/07/2010 4:39:28 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsiejay
Even my faith in the vicarious atonement accomplished by Jesus, if its efficacy depends on the resolve of my will, is not reliable.

AMEN!

49 posted on 11/07/2010 4:41:05 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CASchack

Matthew 25 spells it out for you.

 
Uh.... Can you point out exactly WHERE?


Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins
 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

   6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

   7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

   9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

   10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

   11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

   12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

   13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The Parable of the Bags of Gold
    14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

   19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

   21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

   22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

   23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

   24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

   26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

   28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The Sheep and the Goats
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

   34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

   37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

   40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

   41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

   44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

   45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

   46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


50 posted on 11/07/2010 4:44:16 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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