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Legalism is false doctrine !
Antinomianism and Salvation. ^ | August 2010 | Gart O'Toole

Posted on 11/06/2010 3:55:37 PM PDT by Benchim

There are millions of church going believers who really are confused and conflicted on central issues of the faith. Issue 1: Are you really saved? You may say "Yes" but you may not be sure because of the legal requirements of the group you joined. Issue 2: When do I receive my salvation? When I believe or when I die after a trial to determine if I did all the right things like baptism, repentance ,lived in obedience, confession , "born again", absolution from the priesthood,tithed,lived sinless and on and on. Did you observe the sabath? was your "church" attendance acceptable to God? By the way, you did not do this guilt trip on your own. You were constantly "coached" into these ambiguities by the institutional "Church" to better control their flock and to extract attendance and money.

(Excerpt) Read more at antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: antinomianism; gospel; legalism; salvation; vanity
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

The NAIL has met the HAMMER!


51 posted on 11/07/2010 4:44:55 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

If you look at Lds.org like I did -- every single entry they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?



 
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith


52 posted on 11/07/2010 4:46:42 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

If you look at Lds.org like I did -- every single entry they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?



 
Temple Recommend Questions



1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

       Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
       Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

53 posted on 11/07/2010 4:48:53 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
We planned to get married but she and her family were determined to convert me to their church and I balked.

We had a fellow at church (wife, 3 kids quite active) that got caught up in their 'teachings' about the BIBle. Was convinced that we Wesleyans were teaching false doctrine and started going to the CoC.

He went alone.

The kids were at the extremely vulnerable teen-preteen years and wondered which was right. Wife cried and sobbed at the altar but would NOT go with him to 'his' church.

His pastor and ours almost came to blows in a 'meeting' once.

The kids grew up, got in trouble - some still there. The fellow had problems at THAT church - dropped out - and no longer knows WHAT to believe. Now his wife has dropped out of church, too, once the kids grew away.

It's a big mess we are praying for, but our GOD is patient - so we must be too.

54 posted on 11/07/2010 5:00:52 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Widtsoe claimed that the holy spirit is an "it" -- like an influence.

Same as Jehovah Witness teaching.

55 posted on 11/07/2010 5:01:54 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Lee N. Field
Since Christians partake in the covenant with Abraham, and are explicitly his heirs.

We DO??


Galatians 15:15-18
 
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as referring to many, but rather to one, 'And to your seed,' that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

56 posted on 11/07/2010 5:06:23 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
This controversy is one of the many inconsistencies that eventually leads honest Protestants back to the Rock that is Rome.
 
Oh?

 
Is Peter the 'rock'?
 


NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
 
NIV Matthew 8:14
 14.  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.
 
NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
 
NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
 
NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
 

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....


NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.
 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
 4.  and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
 
NIV Luke 6:48
 48.  He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
 
NIV Romans 9:33
 33.  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 
 
 
NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.


But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.
 
NIV Numbers 20:8
 8.  "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
 4.  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
 15.  Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
 18.  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
 
NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
 2.  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
 32.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
 47.  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
 
NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
 
NIV Psalms 18:2
 2.  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.
 
NIV Psalms 18:31
 31.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV Psalms 18:46
 46.  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
 
NIV Psalms 19:14
 14.  May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 28:1
 
 1.  To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
 
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
 
NIV Psalms 42:9
 9.  I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
 
NIV Psalms 62:2
 2.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:6
 6.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:7
 7.  My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
 
NIV Psalms 71:3
 3.  Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
 
NIV Psalms 78:35
 35.  They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 89:26
 26.  He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
 
NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
 
NIV Psalms 95:1
 1.  Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
 
NIV Psalms 144:1
 1.  Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
 
NIV Isaiah 17:10
 10.  You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
 
NIV Isaiah 26:4
 4.  Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
 
NIV Isaiah 30:29
29.  And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
 
NIV Isaiah 44:8
 8.  Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 
 
NIV Habakkuk 1:12
 12.  O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.
 
 
.....No other rock.............
 
And now you know the Biblical position!


57 posted on 11/07/2010 5:10:33 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Mt 25:34

It’s rather presumptuous for some to call things legalism which are spelled out in Scripture. Legalism is contrary to Christianity, but it seems that some are seeking to argue in lieu of praising Jesus.

God bless.


58 posted on 11/07/2010 5:33:47 AM PST by CASchack
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To: Benchim

Funny, Hebrews 11 names all the folks that lived BEFORE “the cross” - dispensationalism is as silly as supercessionism is evil.


59 posted on 11/07/2010 5:59:53 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
Funny, Hebrews 11 names all the folks that lived BEFORE “the cross” - dispensationalism is as silly as supercessionism is evil.

And Peter says that 'salvation' was offered to them FIRST, IPeter 3 and 4, that would make all those that believed the 'Gospel' Christians. God is dispensing HIS time and He had His elected prophets to write it all down for us to know the seasons...

60 posted on 11/07/2010 6:12:33 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

What nice, neat, theology for you. Too bad it comes from the hearts and minds of men, and not the words of the Almighty.


61 posted on 11/07/2010 6:21:07 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Campion

Well, look at history.
From the day Paul wrote his letters they were used as the main guide in doctrine and considered sacred scripture.

It took close to two hundred years before James’ one little letter was considered sacred scripture, and even then it was put in the back of the book with the other scriptures the early Christians were not sure about.

But that one little leter has caused more problems as so many people now use it to cancel all the grace and libety letters from Paul.

Again, James’ letter was to THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL, not the Gentile believers.

Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.


62 posted on 11/07/2010 6:55:01 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Elsie

I eagerly await the reformation thesis entitled sola gratia.


63 posted on 11/07/2010 8:07:47 AM PST by rwilson99
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To: Elsie

Exactly.


64 posted on 11/07/2010 8:11:27 AM PST by Benchim
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To: Campion

Yes thanks . That is what I said. The word “Church” was contrived from the original meaning. When Paul writes the “Church” at Rome ,he was writing to ALL THE BELIEVERS there. Not a building. He was addressing those who believed that Christ was the savior. They had no buildings or denominations.


65 posted on 11/07/2010 8:20:09 AM PST by Benchim
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To: Tzfat
What nice, neat, theology for you. Too bad it comes from the hearts and minds of men, and not the words of the Almighty.

Oh so Peter wrote his own 'theology'? What about that parable of the ten virgins who make it all the way up to the END but do not have enough 'oil' (truth) to make it to the 'wedding'? (Matthew 25)

66 posted on 11/07/2010 8:40:59 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
Oh so Peter wrote his own 'theology'?

No, you read his words like your theology dictates.

What about that parable of the ten virgins

Ah, if you use parables to create a theology, there is no end to heresy. You can make them say whatever you want. Parables are illustrations designed to make a point - not to create theologies out of whole cloth.

Why not be honest and just rip out the first 3/4 of your Bible. That way you can join the heretic Marcion and have a "clean slate" for your errant theology.

Me? I will stick to the eternal Word - unchanged and complete from beginning to end. No contradictions, no dispensations, no twisting of the Almighty's words. No bait-and-switch theology.
67 posted on 11/07/2010 9:30:08 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Logophile

Paul channeling James or God?


68 posted on 11/07/2010 10:07:25 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Benchim

Bodies are one united whole. Detached pieces of bodies are dead flesh.


69 posted on 11/07/2010 10:36:03 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Benchim

Sheer eisegesis on your part.


70 posted on 11/07/2010 10:37:02 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Colofornian

We agree on something! Well done.


71 posted on 11/07/2010 10:39:34 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Tzfat

So are we to believe that Jesus (YWH) trains his chosen people to repent and obey, but then pulls a switcheroo on them in the NT?


72 posted on 11/07/2010 10:41:15 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD
Paul channeling James or God?

Or God inspiring both Paul and James?

73 posted on 11/07/2010 11:45:57 AM PST by Logophile
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; Campion
But that one little leter has caused more problems as so many people now use it to cancel all the grace and libety letters from Paul.

Headline: "Bible Christian" rejects portion of the Bible.

74 posted on 11/07/2010 12:10:49 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: 1010RD; Just mythoughts; Benchim
So are we to believe that Jesus... trains his chosen people to repent and obey, but then pulls a switcheroo on them in the NT?

Apparently, this is what Dispensationalism teaches. It is a twisted theology (albeit not as evil as the Supercessionism of the Catholic Church, or the Reformed movement). Ironically, both Supercessionism and Dispensationalism lay the guilt on the Jews of the "Old Testament" for not faithfully following the "Law of Moses" - but then in the "New Testament" claim that it is not operable. What arrogance!

They have to play disjointed hermeneutical games to create a systematic theology - that cannot treat the Bible as a unified whole, able to be read literally. No wonder Jews shake their heads at these theological contortions.

There are many difficult things to understand in Scripture. Obedience is not one of them. It is clearly, and plainly spoken of by the mouth of the Almighty.
75 posted on 11/07/2010 12:13:17 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Benchim
I am a member of Eklessia. The word “Church” was a creation in the 1630s of the King James Translation, There is no “Church” in the Bible. The Greek word in the Bible meabs— “Body of believers”!! That is all believers!! You don’t need a building with a mortgage and some egomaniac who makes his house payment and big car payment out of your gift the” god”.

I'll take that as a "no" to my second question, then.

"Teh Crazy", it is strong in this thread.

76 posted on 11/07/2010 12:54:27 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("Bad eschatology drives out good.")
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To: Benchim

**John said it best in 3:16.**

That verse is the condensed summation of what the Lord had been teaching to Nicodemas in the previous 13 verses.

“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

Some argue that the ‘water’ is natural birth, but Jesus didn’t say in the next verse that ‘that which is born of water is flesh’. It’s obvious he’s refering to baptism, as he commanded it in Matt. 28:19, and Mark 16:16.

In Luke 24:47, he commanded the disciples “that REPENTANCE and REMISSION of SINS should be preached in his NAME among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. This command was first instituted in Acts 2:38, for there Peter commanded the convicted souls to “..REPENT, and be BAPTIZED EVERY ONE of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Back to John “the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE the is born of the Spirit.” 3:8

Paul writing “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be SAINTS...” Rom. 1:7. (these folks were already born again)

Paul reminds them of their baptism in chp 6, vrs 3 and 4. and tells them in vrs 17 “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was delivered you.”

So when blind leaders of the blind try to build a ‘believe only’ doctrine from Rom. 10, they are ignorant that Paul wrote that to people that were already born again (see chp 1:7 again).

The Lord prayed unto the Father in John 17, saying in vrs 17, “I have given them thy word..” and vrs 20, “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through THEIR word;...”.

There’s an abundance of ‘believeing in Jesus’, but a great sidestepping of his commands.

If you don’t believe his words, you don’t believe as the scriptures hath said.


77 posted on 11/07/2010 12:59:25 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: mas cerveza por favor; Campion

***Headline: “Bible Christian” rejects portion of the Bible.****

Remember your history when the only accepted books of the NT were the four Gospels, Acts, Paul’s letters (except Hebrews),1Peter, 1 John.

Then they added James, 2 Peter, 2&3 John, Hebrews and Revelation.

So, do we take sacrifices to a temple as James demanded, obey the LAW of MOSES (all of it, not just one part), take vows on our heads?

Precisely what parts of James’ writing to the Jews negate Paul’s letters to the Gentiles?

Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe NO SUCH THING, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Act 21:26 ¶ Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all [men] every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.


78 posted on 11/07/2010 1:02:23 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: grumpa

The CoC commands water baptism as per Acts 2:38, but doesn’t baptise in the name of Jesus, as per Peter’s command. So they are in enormous error on that matter.


79 posted on 11/07/2010 1:03:16 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Tzfat
Oh so Peter wrote his own 'theology'?

No, you read his words like your theology dictates.

You have NO clue what 'my' theology is but you have been programmmmmmed to ignore Peter's own words.

What about that parable of the ten virgins

Ah, if you use parables to create a theology, there is no end to heresy. You can make them say whatever you want. Parables are illustrations designed to make a point - not to create theologies out of whole cloth. Why not be honest and just rip out the first 3/4 of your Bible. That way you can join the heretic Marcion and have a "clean slate" for your errant theology. Me? I will stick to the eternal Word - unchanged and complete from beginning to end. No contradictions, no dispensations, no twisting of the Almighty's words. No bait-and-switch theology.

Christ spoke to the masses in parables BUT he privately explained them to His disciples. And we have the parables and then the private explanations... so they would NOT be parables to those who read with understanding.

Somebody is going to run out of 'oil' because they ignored the whole of the WORD... and those that run out of truth in the final dispensation of this flesh age are going to be scurry about trying to 'buy' some to get some light.

80 posted on 11/07/2010 1:08:48 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: CASchack
Mt 25:34

It’s rather presumptuous for some to call things legalism which are spelled out in Scripture.

When does one know if they've 'done enough'?

81 posted on 11/07/2010 1:09:29 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwilson99
I eagerly await the reformation thesis entitled sola gratia.

Why?

Isn't SCRIPTURE clear enough to understand?

82 posted on 11/07/2010 1:11:10 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tzfat
Apparently, this is what Dispensationalism teaches. It is a twisted theology (albeit not as evil as the Supercessionism of the Catholic Church, or the Reformed movement). Ironically, both Supercessionism and Dispensationalism lay the guilt on the Jews of the "Old Testament" for not faithfully following the "Law of Moses" - but then in the "New Testament" claim that it is not operable. What arrogance! They have to play disjointed hermeneutical games to create a systematic theology - that cannot treat the Bible as a unified whole, able to be read literally. No wonder Jews shake their heads at these theological contortions. There are many difficult things to understand in Scripture. Obedience is not one of them. It is clearly, and plainly spoken of by the mouth of the Almighty.

I think you have gone into overdrive theology. Now do you have scoped out where you will go to buy 'oil' when your light goes dark?????????????????

83 posted on 11/07/2010 1:11:57 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

The thief was under the Law. Jesus had earlier commanded the leper “to go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testamony unto them”. Matt. 8:4 The thief was condemned to death and could only repent to the ‘great high priest’ himself.

Regardless of the CoC position on the repentant thief, the Word says that a “testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength AT ALL while the testator LIVETH.” Heb. 9:17 This ‘new and living way’ began when the Holy Ghost was initially poured out.


84 posted on 11/07/2010 1:14:42 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

**This controversy is one of the many inconsistencies that eventually leads honest Protestants back to the Rock that is Rome.**

INCONSISTENCIES?? Your church doesn’t take a backseat to anyone in that category.
Another classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.


85 posted on 11/07/2010 1:23:17 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Colofornian
"Do you rejoice with the truth that he who believes in Jesus HAS eternal life -- not just WILL have -- but has it NOW?"

You betcha!!!

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"(1 John 5:13)

I believe knowing you're saved is essential to doing the work of God.(John 6:29)

The one vital difference between God's truth and ANY cult is the fact that salvation is the first thing settled.With any cult it is the last.It's the clearest definition of a cult I've ever come across.

86 posted on 11/07/2010 1:25:12 PM PST by mitch5501 (fine!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Remember your history when the only accepted books of the NT were the four Gospels, Acts, Paul’s letters (except Hebrews),1Peter, 1 John.

??? Which history was this? I have learned that the NT canon was gradually shorn of apocrypha, not made larger.

Precisely what parts of James’ writing to the Jews negate Paul’s letters to the Gentiles?

None. What are you saying? James' teaching only applies to Jewish Christians and not to Greeks? Neither? Both?

87 posted on 11/07/2010 1:37:27 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Zuriel
INCONSISTENCIES?? Your church doesn’t take a backseat to anyone in that category. Another classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

What inconsistencies?

88 posted on 11/07/2010 1:45:12 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
James is one of the disputed books of the New Testament, and it was not accepted by the ancient church. It is rejected for three main reasons: First, it was not written by an apostle. Second, it is inconsistent with teachings of St. Paul. Third, the author never mentions Christ, the Atonement, or Resurrection, which is the heart of Christianity. There are those that see a hidden Christology in James, but it is basically a law book. One of my favorite professors wrote a defense of James with the view that there is a hidden Christology in it, but if there is one, it is well hidden. I like the anointing of the sick that is mentioned, and that may well be something worth keeping.
89 posted on 11/07/2010 1:53:03 PM PST by Nosterrex
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To: Nosterrex
James is one of the disputed books of the New Testament, and it was not accepted by the ancient church. It is rejected for three main reasons: First, it was not written by an apostle. Second, it is inconsistent with teachings of St. Paul.

Nothing here but boldly unsupported assertions.

Third, the author never mentions Christ

Wrong:

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." (James 1:1)

"My brethren, hold not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." (James 2:1)
(In other words, do not hold the faith with favoritism for one person over another.)

90 posted on 11/07/2010 2:35:54 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
From the day Paul wrote his letters they were used as the main guide in doctrine and considered sacred scripture.

Actually it was the 4 canonical gospels that were considered "the main guide in doctrine". Everything Paul wrote was subject to them, as he himself would tell you first. Both the 4 gospels and the Pauline letters were considered canonical from very early times.

Incidentally, where something is placed in your Bible doesn't have much to do with its status or the degree to which you should heed it. The order of the books is not divinely inspired.

Again, James’ letter was to THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL, not the Gentile believers.

I think you're not quite understanding something.

The ten tribes in the north of Israel were conquered by Assyria in 722 BC. Those tribes were dispersed and forcibly intermarried among the Gentiles. They were lost as individual national units, hence the term "Lost Tribes of Israel". The whole messianic promise was that those tribes would be reunited back into the one people of God.

But how is that even possible, when they are intermingled with Gentile nations? Precisely by bringing the Gentiles into the covenant, that's how!

So saying James is writing to "the twelve tribes of Israel, not to Gentile believers" is nonsense. Ten of those twelve tribes were Gentile believers (if they were to be believers at all), so for him to address his letter to "the twelve tribes in the diaspora" is precisely the same as addressing his letter to the whole church of God.

This isn't a work of Jewish homiletics, and it isn't teaching the Mosaic law in opposition to Paul's teaching of salvation by grace through faith. The bishops in AD 400 knew exactly what they were doing, and put it in the Bible for a reason.

And no, it doesn't contradict Paul. Not if you understand Paul correctly, and James as well.

91 posted on 11/07/2010 3:36:32 PM PST by Campion
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To: Nosterrex
Third, the author never mentions Christ

This is simply false.

James 1:1 - James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

James 2:2 - My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

92 posted on 11/07/2010 3:39:19 PM PST by Campion
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To: mas cerveza por favor

***None. What are you saying? James’ teaching only applies to Jewish Christians and not to Greeks? Neither? Both?****

Are CHRISTIANS today required to do what James told Paul to do? If not, WHY NOT!
And since James’ letter was specificly written to “The Twelve Tribes scattered abroad” what part of IT carries more weight than what PAUL said?

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me:

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

***

Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

If Saint Paul won Christian Liberty from the requirements of the Jewish law for the Gentiles, and JAMES still required that law for Jewish Christians, Paul negates all James had to say about WORKS FOR SALVATION!

Gal 2:11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from JAMES, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Gal 2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


93 posted on 11/07/2010 3:43:49 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Campion

***The ten tribes in the north of Israel were conquered by Assyria in 722 BC. Those tribes were dispersed and forcibly intermarried among the Gentiles. They were lost as individual national units, hence the term “Lost Tribes of Israel”. ****

There were still enough of Israel who returned to Jerusalem that sacrifices were offered for ALL OF THE TRIBES.

Ezr 6:16 And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,

Ezr 6:17 And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

Ezr 8:35 [Also] the children of those that had been carried away, which were come out of the captivity, offered burnt offerings unto the God of Israel, twelve bullocks for all Israel, ninety and six rams, seventy and seven lambs, twelve he goats [for] a sin offering: all [this was] a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Plus we have the mention in the NT of Anna of the tribe of ASHER..

So not all came back to Israel but enough did to be considered Twelve Tribes, even though most were still in Persia.


94 posted on 11/07/2010 4:20:59 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Zuriel

Please list for us “His commands”. Do not leave any out so we won’t fall from grace.


95 posted on 11/07/2010 5:02:04 PM PST by Benchim
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Are CHRISTIANS today required to do what James told Paul to do? If not, WHY NOT! And since James’ letter was specificly written to “The Twelve Tribes scattered abroad” what part of IT carries more weight than what PAUL said?

The epistles of Sts. Paul and James are never in conflict and equally inspired and authoritative for all Christians today. Any detection of conflict between these Apostles is entirely the result of misinterpretation. The Holy Spirit, who inspires all Sacred Scripture, is not in conflict with Himself.

96 posted on 11/07/2010 5:40:31 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Logophile

You’re on to something. ;-]


97 posted on 11/07/2010 5:50:30 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Tzfat; Just mythoughts; Benchim

You are exactly correct. How does G-d love and devote himself to his chosen training them to be obedient to his Law only to return as the Messiah and condemn them for their obedience?

Jesus Christ rails not against the Law, but against hypocrisy a disease many suffer from even in our modern age.

Your insight into the fulfillment of the Law and prophets is spot on. Which of the Ten Commandments does Jesus now allow through his sacrifice?

Well done and keep the faith.

Shalom.


98 posted on 11/07/2010 5:57:03 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Campion; Ruy Dias de Bivar

Excellent good, Campion.

Where exactly would James post his letter to the 12 Tribes?

Which city or country does he messenger it to?


99 posted on 11/07/2010 6:15:38 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

I appreciate the encouragement. I am devoted to the Gospel of Christ and it has been distorted to extract followship — not fellowship. They want money in the name of God to pay their house mortgages and car payments. It is time to bench’em.


100 posted on 11/07/2010 7:03:57 PM PST by Benchim
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