Posted on 11/30/2010 9:14:06 AM PST by greyfoxx39
"No longer members of any legally recognized religion, Mormons organized a focus group to re-brand their identity. So they called around to some California railroad lobbyists, New York ad-men, and brainstormed and out-paradigm-shifted a totally innovational re-branding of Mormonism.
"The Trustee thus offered bonds to Eastern bankers with the promised collateral being the Mormons themselves."The Mormon people, you see, had untapped value: a sense of community, a uniquely productive work ethic, and best of all, a built-in propensity to be obedient to authorities.
In this month (June 1829) I was baptized, confirmed, and ordained an Elder in the Church of Christ by Bro. Joseph Smith. Previous to this, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had baptized, confirmed and ordained each other to the office of an Elder in the Church of Christ. I was the third person baptized into the church. In August, 1829, we began to preach the gospel of Christ. The following six Elders had then been ordained: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, Samuel H. Smith, Hyrum Smith and myself. The Book of Mormon was still in the hands of the printer, but my brother, Christian Whitmer, had copied from the manuscript the teachings and doctrine of Christ, being the things which we were commanded to preach. We preached, baptized and confirmed members into the Church of Christ, from August, 1829, until April 6th, 1830, being eight months in which time we had proceeded rightly; the offices in the church being Elders, Priests and Teachers.
Now, when April 6, 1830, had come, we had then established three branches of the Church of Christ, in which three branches were about seventy members: One branch was at Fayette, N. Y.; one at Manchester, N. Y., and one at Colesville, Pa. It is all a mistake about the church being organized on April 6, 1830, as I will show. We were as fully organizedspirituallybefore April 6th as we were on that day. The reason why we met on that day was this; the world had been telling us that we were not a regularly organized church, and we had no right to officiate in the ordinance of marriage, hold church property, etc., and that we should organize according to the laws of the land. On this account we met at my fathers house in Fayette, N. Y., on April 6, 1830, to attend to this matter of organizing according to the laws of the land; you can see this from Sec. 17 Doctrine and Convenants: the church was organized on April 6th agreeable to the laws of our country. (An Address to All Believers in Christ, pg 32-34)Indeed, the Lord defined His church in D&C 10:67, showing that it was already in existence at least since 1828. There was no need to organize something that was already extant. Joseph's act of registering with the state was a slow poison that proved fatal to his creation sixty years later.
Carmichael, California
"I've had a lifelong interest in what the early Latter-day Saints understood to be the "pure theology" of The Restoration, unfiltered by many of the common assumptions prevalent among a majority of modern Mormons today.
In Joseph Smith's time, a teaching was accepted as valid only if obtained through divine revelation from God. Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture."
I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment."
On all threads, but particularly open threads, posters must never make it personal. Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of making it personal. Making a thread about another Freeper is making it personal.
When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun you before hitting enter.
Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.
Thin-skinned posters will be booted from open threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.
Ping
Wow
Google has been the dagger to the Church/Corporation’s heart. People are leaving out the back door of the church by the tens of thousands.
The church will exist in some form for some time, but its best days are in the past. Its decline over the next 25 years will be epic.
This should be an interesting thread. Ping to read later.
It just gets better and better...
I found the subject to be interesting enough to merit reading the article. I got about three screen pages down, then scrolled the rest to see how long it was going to be. I really wanted to read more, but couldn’t.
I find it very difficult to read anything more than 6 paragraphs long where the author bolds, italicizes, increases the font size, indents and otherwise frequently emphasizes different parts of the text which the author somehow thinks are more important than the rest.
If the subject is interesting, the formatting changes are unnecessary. I would prefer a little more brevity and some conistency in the formatting. All of the format changes are distracting and frustrating. It takes away from the credibility of the author, and makes him look like a kook.
If emphasis is needed, it should be applied to passages that are truly revelatory, and sparingly.
In my experience, many readers will skim longer articles. I emphasize accordingly.
The changes I have seen since I left mormonism many years ago are quite stunning.
I think predictions of the collapse of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more wishful thinking than anything else.
My view from the inside is I don’t see signs of atrophy or withering away. I see a lot of strength, unity, conviction and love. Yes, there are problems and challenges, but that’s to be expected.
I see a bright future.
Normandy
Your vision, your choice. This article is about the way the original mormon church has become a corporation. Did you bother to read it?
Lds, Inc.
With a charter (not God)
which (not WHO) determines who the next "prophet" will be...
Yeah. I could just imagine it. God establishes a "corporate sole" charter where Elisha takes over for Elijah...except that they were actually "co-prophets" for about a decade...imagine that...
Or God "charters" Hosea and his prostitute wife to "take over" the prophet mantle from Amos...except that they were "co-prophets" for about a decade...hmm...imagine that...
Or God "charters Micah to assume the prophet mantle from Isaiah...except that they were contemporary "co-prophets" for about half-a-century...hmm...imagine that...
Or God "charters" Habbakuk to relieve Zephaniah as prophet"...except that Zephaniah, Habakkuk and Jeremiah were contemporary for almost 20 years -- and Jeremiah & Nahum likewise for over a decade...
[And Samuel and Nathan were simultaneous prophets for about 50 years...and 1 Kings mentions 100 true prophets alive at the same time!)
Just goes to show that the Mormon church isn't a "restoration" of ANYTHING biblical. Lds Inc. has foisted an outright lie upon their people -- and have told them to "cough up" 10% to the corporate coffers.
Despite Hebrews 1:1-2, Mormons have been told that Jesus can't speak directly to His Church on earth...even though the writer of Hebrews clearly says that in the past God spoke through prophets...now He speaks through His Son, the Living Revelation of God!
Why has Lds Inc. bumped Jesus Christ out of the picture as the Church's one Living Prophet?
Why has Lds Inc. silenced Him?
Can He not speak directly any more?
I mean it's downright hypocritical for the Lds Church to insist that God only gives one "prophet" to the church, and then to systematically exclude mention of Jesus Christ as continuing to be THAT SINGLE Living Prophet...meaning...that the Lds church has replaced Him!
Even though MANY of the Old Testament prophets were contemporaries of each other (God speaking through more than one prophet at a time), Lds Inc. "told" God that He can't do that any more -- they have shut the mouths of God speaking through more than a single prophet.. and what's worse, unlike what Heb. 1:1-2 clearly says -- that Jesus is our everlasting "prophetic" voice we hear (see John 10)...Mormons say "no" -- we've shut up Jesus' voice as well...and we ONLY hear in a church body where "ONLY here is the Lords prophet."
"Unwitting cash cows?" Unwitting bank account feeder dupes.
Gullibles.
(Give us 10% of your income & that's your temple ticket. Your temple ticket is your freeway to godhood.)
Q What god would attach a ticket voucher you have to pay for to live with him forever?
A Only the Mormon god!
You see, Mormons essentially say that well over 99.x% of people who've ever lived and are living will live with Father-God forever. (That's reserved for married temple Mormons who jump through all the rest of perfectionist, legalistic, ritualistic Mormon hoops!!)
Other Mormons need not apply.
Singles need not apply.
Non Mormons need not apply.
If you want a new "god job" Lds Inc. is assigning to colonies around the universe, you need to become a member in the infamous White Boys Club of Lds, Inc. (Oh, well, they started accepting black members 32 years ago -- when Mitt Romney was a tithing temple Mormon at age 30...but guess what % of their membership is black?)
Another fantasy thread by the anti-Mormon activist gang on FR. /yawn
Monson is still Prez...Packer, I think is next in line but I'm not sure.
“Its decline over the next 25 years will be epic.”
Doubt that. The Church is experiencing a revival if anything. It is exciting, fulfilling, and wonderful to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I have been a Baptist, for a short time a Catholic, a pentecostal/evangelical, but I have never been so full of joy and awe. The Holy Ghost is real. Heavenly Father is real. Our Savior, Jesus Christ, is real. The Church is real.
The anti Mormons can go on their merry way spreading these horrible threads but it mattereth not.
I don’t see any problem with the LDS church being incorporated. Yes, it’s a legal structure set up the laws of man, but the Church operates in the secular environment and has to deal with the laws of the lands in which it is organized. That doesn’t in my mind invalidate in any way its divine mandate.
We sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as “prophets seers and revelators”. So there are 15 right now who are ministering simultaneously.
The church in Jerusalem as well as the one alledged to be in America had 12 apostles.
If the church is true, what are the three most significant prophecies Monson has made?
Come now! You know those are secrets only the initiates are allowed to hear ... just other mystery religions.
Well I would hope that you would.
NONE of whom have spoken as a Scripture-producing "prophet," right?
When's the last time one of your "apostles" or "First Presidency" counselors ever spoken as a "prophet" in having his words canonized as "Scripture?"
The church in Jerusalem as well as the one alledged to be in America had 12 apostles. [Godzilla]
So the Lds church has a "prophet" + 12 "apostles" and 2 "First President counselors." 15 total
During the supposed "American" rounds of Jesus in the Book of Mormon, the supposed "church of Jesus Christ" had Jesus + 23-24 "apostles" -- 24-25 after Saul converted to Paul -- and no "First President Counselors." 25-26 total
Who authorized the reduction, Normandy?
If the Lds church is supposed to be a "restoration" of the original church, who ordered those sustained to be permanently removed from the Middle East? Or South or Central America?
What's the "magical" number about "15" within a Quorum? Why not 16? Or 13?
Where is Jesus Christ on the hierarchy? Why has He been removed from His Hebrews 1:1-2 post?
Where's the apostle John? (Isn't He still alive, per the D&C?)
Who authorized him to be cut from the Mormon apostle list? When was that done? Did Mormonism's leaders have the supposed "authority" to do that?
Or is it that Joseph Smith lied? And that the apostle John's life has been transferred to heaven -- and he's no longer here?
We sustain all the Apostles (First Presidency and Quorum of the 12) as prophets, seers, and revelators, and we believe they can and do reveal the will of the Lord to the people of earth. Just because the things that they say are not included in our books of scripture, doesn’t mean they are not speaking the will of God.
The majority of the words of Christ and the early Apostles never made it into the Bible.
For the record there is no “magic number”. We have had presidents of the church who have had more than two counselors.
As for John the Revelator, I am sure he is still an Apostle, fulfilling a unique mission for God.
A simple solution:
Cut the article, paste it in a word procesor, and make all the text the same.
Takes way less than 30 seconds to do.
Norm, I understand what you're saying...I've had Mormons say to me, "You don't understand. Even what the prophet and apostles say at a General Conference is revealing God's will."
Here's the "rub," Normandy: Surely, you've seen us cite Lds past "apostles" and "prophets" left and right...some of it in the Journal of Discourses. Some of it stated at General Conferences (many of the references of the Mormon "White Horse prophesy," for example, was mentioned in 20th century General Conferences between WWI and the early 1960s).
Numerous times when we've cited those phrases, we get Mormons left and right poo-pooing those earlier comments from their leads as not worthy of respect, let alone deemed "the will of the Lord."
We're still waiting for Mormons to stop trying to have their cake & eat it, too...It seems whenever a contemporary sustained general authority says something at a General Conference, it's the "Lord's will." But if a General Authority has a tombstone with his name on it, it's...
"Suspect"
--Not "the Lord's will"
-- "We don't believe that (anymore)"
-- etc.
There's absolutely ZILCHO consistency on the part of Lds FReepers on this.
The light at the end of the tunnel just likely is a TRAIN!
Get off at the next stop!
|
Another fantasy thread by the anti-Mormon activist gang on FR. /yawn |
I am pleased to offer my services for the Betterment of Mankind.
Please feel free to ask me ANYTHING and I'll sincerely post my link list again.
Remember...
I am normal too; and I am a MORMON!
Sincerely,
PD

Read the corporation charter; as it tells how the line of succession is going to work.
Horrible?
Yes; to a MORMON.
But not untrue; is it dear?
That it surely does!
The 'church' got a MANDATE from GOD in D&C 132 to adhere to the ETERNAL COVENANT of polygamy; but the 'church' is afraid of the GOVERNMENT that allows it to exist; so it threw it's GOD under the bus for the sake of keeping it's material things.
The leaders of this 'church' are spineless cowards.
Bull!
They ain't 'ministering' nuttin'!
They are BUSINESSmen: that's all!
bttt
Thanks for the interesting link.
He sounds like a pretty determined individual.....
Legal ping. Input?
Apparently, so did your Corporate President; the thing is, though, that only those on the upper levels of the Multi-Level Marketing scheme make the big bucks. Downline shmucks have blind faith in making it big, but there's a big difference between seeing a bright future and having one.
It is an interesting perspective. I assume that the author belongs to one of the “fundamentalist” Mormon sects. Legally, he seems to be claiming that churches ought not be recognized by the state as legal entities; however, it’s more of a theological claim than a legal one. Church buildings and graveyards must belong to someone or something for property tax purposes, for example. I suppose that individual members could keep title rather than gifting land to an under-the-radar church, but most people in America like the stability of the Congregational/corporate model. Whether those people are theologically correct is not a legal question.
“I assume that the author belongs to one of the ‘fundamentalist’ Mormon sects.”
Sheesh! Doesn’t anybody click on the original post anymore?
I’m the writer of the piece under discussion, and aligned with mainstream LDS. You’ll find, however, that I am not in thrall to the Brethren nor their constant bleating for obeisance.
Webheart, I emphasize with your frustration regarding all the italicizing, bolding, and increasing of the font size of my article. Although I understand Greyfox’s motivation for emphasizing certain points (and I appreciate him for reposting it!), those emphases are his, not mine. So Elsie, no need to put my words back into a word processor and straighten them all out again. You’ll find my post in it’s original form quite readable here, complete with a snappy portrait of Jesus as the Corporate Man:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-corporatism-has-undermined-and.html
Also, note that Greyfox did not post the entire article; in fact, my piece wasn’t called “The Vanishing LDS Church.” That was just a subtitle of one section. The full piece is titled “How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ.”
In there I have already addressed Mr. Reaganaut’s concerns about how a church can function absent corporation.
The very question is evidence of how thoroughly Americans have come to accept the premise that no business can function without being incorporated. Prior to the 20th century romance for such status, people did just fine as regular businesses, sole proprietors, partnerships, or simply companies.
Many churches today have come to the realization that they have been conned into thinking incorporation was necessary, and there is a rush now to dis-incorporate. You might want to ask those churches how they manage to pay their employees and engage in commerce with suppliers. They are able to do so because they operate as a church, an independent entity that does not seek permission from the State for its existence. They seem to be functioning just fine, as churches always did before America went corporate crazy a hundred years ago.
I would remind Mr. Reaganaut by the way, that churches don’t pay property taxes. At least those not subject to Caesar.
You can’t claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.
Courtesy ping to FReepers mentioned in your reply, that weren’t pinged.
Btw, thanks for bumping the thread...
I’m sorry, I clicked on the link to the book at Amazon. I apologize for assuming by the harshness of your (apparently excerpted) article that you were not mainstream LDS. I do agree that incorporation is immaterial to the purposes of the Church.
As you stated in your article, "I wanted to include the following information in the essay above, but the piece was already so long I didn't have the heart to put you readers through a longer stretch."......the excerpt I DID post is quite long, thus the emphasis on certain points. As I explained, a lot of readers are inclined to see a long post and rather than wade through it, will move on. I feel that the information you have made available is of interest to the readers of the mormon threads.
As to the "meat" of the article, I pull this quote from you...You cant claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.
I'm sure I am speaking for many when I change it just a little.."You cant claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist answer to a leadership consisting of businessmen and attorneys and a "prophet" who requires a "sustaining vote".
While the Church employs an independent auditing department which provides an annual report to the Church[1], it has not published full financial reports since 1959.
The Council was established by church founder Joseph Smith, Jr. on 8 July 1838.[2] As of April 2009, the members of the Council are:
I invite you to stick around and join in the discussion here. We welcome new voices to the debate.
It ain't vanishing as much as it is fragmenting...
Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.
Yup; I'll go along with that conviction thing.
We see them being CONVICTED and sent to jail for white collar crime at a rate that is disporportionate for their numbers.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.