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Are You More Blessed Than the Virgin Mary?
Desiring God ^ | 12/15/2010 | Jonathan Parnell

Posted on 12/15/2010 5:09:09 PM PST by RnMomof7

In the sermon descriptively entitled, “That Hearing and Keeping the Word of God Renders a Person More Blessed Than Any Other Privilege That Ever God Bestowed on Any of the Children of Men,” Jonathan Edwards writes: The hearing and keeping the word of God brings the happiness of a spiritual union and communion with God. ‘Tis a greater blessedness to have spiritual communion with God and to have a saving intercourse with him by the instances of his Spirit and by the exercise of true devotion than it is to converse with God externally, to see the visible representation and manifestations of his presence and glory, and to hear his voice with the bodily ears as Moses did. For in this spiritual intercourse the soul is nigh unto and hath more a particular portion than in any external intercourse. ‘Tis more blessed to be spiritually related to Jesus Christ—to be his disciples, his brethren and the members—than to stand in the nearest temporal relation, than to be his brother or his mother. Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus, ed. Nancy Guthrie, 57.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: blessed; catholicbashing; edwards; marianobsession; mary; scripture
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To: RnMomof7

Wow, I’ll say a rosary for you.


261 posted on 12/16/2010 9:41:27 AM PST by conservonator (How many times? 70 x 7! (still Kant spill))
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To: maryz
Why would you expect anyone to bring a Bible to Mass?

Why would soldiers leave their armor and instruction manuel at home?

262 posted on 12/16/2010 9:41:49 AM PST by caww
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To: caww

Utterly inept analogy.


263 posted on 12/16/2010 9:51:45 AM PST by maryz
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To: Cronos; boatbums
“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” —> that does not say “MORE” blessed are those.....

Because you have seen me, you have believed - He saw, then believed. Doesn't take anything but having one's eyes opened. Jesus doesn't say he was blessed at all! Blessed are those WHO have not seen and yet believe.
264 posted on 12/16/2010 9:53:40 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Cronos
1. in suffering with him -- so, she suffered alongside him -- His suffering and sacrifice is what saved us
2. She co-operated in the work -- so too do you co-operate with Christ when you pray and follow His gospel
3. you need to link "this saving function, " with the this referred which is "This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace"
4. "but by her manifold intercession," contains the same significance as you interceeding with God for someone else, as in you praying to God for someone else
5. "she continues to win the gifts" -- note: She wins it. From whom? From God, from the Sole Mediator between sinful humanity and righteous God -- her Son, Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.

Yes, I have heard the same vatican double speak for some time now. "She's a Mediatrix while Jesus is the sole Mediator; She's a co-redemptrix while Jesus is the only redeemer; All graces flow thru Mary and Jesus is the source of all grace."

The RC Mary seems to posess many attributes of deity in her ability to hear and grant prayers.

My Father likes to say she has the ability to soften Jesus Judgement of us, because he cannot refuse His mother so we can take refuge in her.

While this is certainly a heart warming, familial depiction, it is quite anti biblical.

265 posted on 12/16/2010 10:09:42 AM PST by bkaycee
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To: Cronos

Cronos wrote in response to Gamecock:
“7. The only conclusion is that somehow before His work on the Cross, Christ already saved his created being, His mother, mary.”

Cronos, there is another conclusion possible. It is that the Roman Catholic Church’s understanding of the content and purpose of the Old Testament and how it is related to the New is simply, profoundly wrong.

Just so we are not talking past each other, what I am asserting is that Rome’s understanding of the Old Testament is colored by its understanding of the Judaism of the first century A.D., specifically, Pharisaical Judaism, which is the Judaism that has survived to this day. What they fail to grasp is that that Judaism is not the faith of the Old Testament fathers, not at all.

This was, of course, the very foundation of the Pharisees’ (or as John says, “the Jews,” for that is chiefly who he means) rejection of Jesus. Many of the Jewish people themselves noted this right from the beginning: “And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.” (Matthew 7:29) In other words, the Beatitudes, and the whole of the Sermon on the Mount that follows them, is not a New Law (which is really what Rome means when it says “Gospel”) but Old Testament doctrine, Law and Gospel, now being fulfilled in and by the Christ, in whom all who are in heaven or ever will be in heaven have trusted, both those of the Old and those of the New Testament. The faith is one. The doctrine is one. The Lord is one. Not one jot or tittle of the Law (the Torah, the teaching, the doctrine, i.e. the content of the OT) would pass away until all of it was - not contravened! - fulfilled. Here the word “until” is to be understood as it is in Matthew 1:25. Just as there it cannot be said to mean that Mary for sure would know a man thereafter, so here it cannot be said to mean that the Old Testament’s truth would be abolished and done away with by the new and different truth of the New. On this point you don’t have a grammatical leg to stand on.

Thereafter the truth of the Old Testament Scriptures would continue to stand, side by side with that of the New Testament, neither contradicting the other, with the former distinguished from the latter only by the incarnation itself. This is the foundation of the apostles and prophets, of which Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone. The prophets believed in Him who was to come and ransom Israel (simply another word for the church) from his sins. The apostles believed in Him who had come in fulfillment of those same prophecies and their promises. That is why the church of the New Testament is grafted into the olive tree that is Israel, i.e., the Messiah believing and for His sake justified church of the Old Testament.

In other words, again, the faith of Mary, expressed in the Magnificat, is the saving faith grounded in Him who now was about to come into the world. This faith she shared with Elizabeth and Zechariah, with Simeon and Anna, and with Eve, and all the faithful in between.

On these points, Rome is, as I said above, simply and profoundly wrong. This is not even another possible conclusion in addition to your point number seven. It is truly the only conclusion. Dear, Cronos, if offered a choice of fellowship with the church of Rome or the church of the Old Testament, I choose the latter, for it is the faith once handed down to the saints. Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, the holy mountain of the Lord, His chosen people, all expressions used many times in the Old Testament to mean the same thing, and the church of the New Testament are one. What God Himself has put together, let no one put asunder.


266 posted on 12/16/2010 10:21:14 AM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Campion; 1000 silverlings; metmom; boatbums; Quix; Gamecock; count-your-change; Alex Murphy; ...
The angel saluted Mary by calling her kecharitomene, which Jerome quite accurately translated as gratia plena, "full of grace". (kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of charitoo, "to grace".)Kecharitomene means "already completely graced as an accomplished fact".

Original Word: χαριτόω
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Short Definition: favor highly

rd Origin from charis
Definition
to make graceful, endow with grace NASB Word Usage
favored (1), freely bestowed (1).

Luke 1:28 καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν· χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"
Verb: Perfect Passive Participle Vocative Singular Feminine

Literal greek translation

Young's Literal Translation And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

plērēs=full
charis= grace

John 1:14 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.

And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth

Acts 6:8 refers to Stephen as plErEs charitos, so it's literally "full of grace" and just the same as the description used of Jesus in John 1:14...It is Stephen that has the same words used of him as Jesus ..not Mary

Moreover, Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly.

Jesus is the ONLY ONE that could or ever would keep the law perfectly ...in order to be SINLESS one would need to keep the law PERFECTLY ..obviously Mary did not ...so she could not be "sinless"

But at the same time, He alone among all men actually created his own mother

Just as He has created all His brothers and sisters.. and all of them that will burn in hell..

How can creating someone in sin be honoring them? Doesn't sin dishonor everything it touches?

That is what the Pharisees thought , that is why the rebuked Jesus for eating and drinking with the drunkards and tax collectors and prostitutes

Jesus came for sinners not the righteous.. if Mary was perfect and sinless He did not come for her

You really can't have a sinful Mary and a divine Jesus and a Jesus who kept the Law of Moses perfectly. Pick any two.

HUH?, where do we find that in scripture?Or is that your own personal interpretation of the bible ??

267 posted on 12/16/2010 10:21:19 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: maryz
Why would you expect anyone to bring a Bible to Mass? They're there to attend Mass -- to share in offering the Eternal Sacrifice of the Son, to follow the Mass prayers; we don't bring the works of the Church Fathers either.

Yes, exactly my point! There is no official prescribed time or place for Catholics to read the bible. I am sure Rome says it's a good practice (lip service) to read the scripture, but I never heard it in 27 years. The bible is a very low priority while the Rosary is (most about Mary) one of the highest priority.

268 posted on 12/16/2010 10:21:48 AM PST by bkaycee
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To: bkaycee
There is no official prescribed time or place for Catholics to read the bible.

Interesting. You might be the first person to critique the Church as not having enough rules :)

In all seriousness I believe that the recommendation of 15 minutes per day, at least, is still in effect from Pope Leo XIII (promulgated around 1900 give or take) although it seems like everyone forgets everything from before Vatican II.

269 posted on 12/16/2010 10:26:48 AM PST by NeoCaveman (Touch my tagline and I'll have you arrested)
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To: Cronos
Again — that is your experience. I have had different — and since I’m 32, I could assume that this may be due to a generational difference as well — check the modern Church, do listen to a confirmation class nowadays.

Why, has the theology changed (again) much since 1984?

270 posted on 12/16/2010 10:28:07 AM PST by bkaycee
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To: Salvation; topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; wmfights; the_conscience

Yum, Quaking Puffs, there’s millions of Charismatic Catholics eating it for breakfast.


271 posted on 12/16/2010 10:29:30 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: maryz

No it is not...why would anyone attend mass without the Bible is like asking a soldier to leave his manuel at home. We are called to “prove” what is right and wrong. Perhaps if more catholics followed what’s been said in mass thru their Bibles they might catch where they are in error.


272 posted on 12/16/2010 10:31:27 AM PST by caww
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To: smvoice

lol


273 posted on 12/16/2010 10:37:18 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

lol,


274 posted on 12/16/2010 10:39:30 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: caww
why would anyone attend mass without the Bible is like asking a soldier to leave his manuel at home.

Bringing a Bible to read at Mass is like prefering your spouse's love letters to his or her actual presence.

We are called to “prove” what is right and wrong.

I'm sorry you can't trust your preachers without bringing a Bible to check everything he says. Though it strikes me as a strange mindset. Hard to see why you bother with preacher.

Perhaps if more catholics followed what’s been said in mass thru their Bibles they might catch where they are in error.

This makes no sense at all.

275 posted on 12/16/2010 10:39:41 AM PST by maryz
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To: Judith Anne; Dr. Eckleburg

just like all those anectdotal Baptists in the south or midwest somewhere.... this thread by the way is hilarious! surely it cant get any funnier, but I’ll continue reading


276 posted on 12/16/2010 10:41:53 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Biggirl

and dont forget our Duckies!


277 posted on 12/16/2010 10:49:32 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Cronos
Well, I don't know why you pinged me to this. The original poster is a known Catholic hater. You can't reason with fanatical bigots and I rarely try.

Sometimes I call them on the more obvious lies, but look at her ping list. It is the Know Nothing Hall of Shame. This is my entry for them on my home page:

“Know Nothings. This is a term to describe a type of Freeper that will post any anti-Catholic article or web site they can. Their virulent hatred of all things Catholic is nauseating. Plus they are consistent in their hatred. This is the original part of my home page on this topic:

For the anti-Catholics out there I find an almost universal ignorance of the role of the Virgin Mary, prayer, tradition, mass, saints, the role of confession and communion, and the role of the church. Often you are fed misinformation by petty twisted people filled with hatred. Please access the Catechism of the Catholic Church and educate yourself. If you don’t agree with what you read, fine. You don’t find it in your heart to do so. But regardless, it speaks poorly of you to denigrate another’s faith. I wouldn’t do it to someone who is of a Protestant denomination.

Whoever weakens faith in Jesus hurts themselves by hurting others. Plus it is just plain bad manners. But I have seen plenty of that from the Catholic bashers here. Over time it seems to be the same characters doing it too. They post attack posts on Catholics and their comments are exceedingly vile. I can excuse lack of knowledge but these same posters have been corrected over and over again. Therefore, they lie. They are not honest people. They are not good people. They do these things with hatred in their hearts. There is nothing Christian in their acts and you know there is no love or goodness in their souls. Pity them but brand them for what they are.

Should Christ himself come back and reveal himself, and declare the Catholic Church he founded on earth is his one true church, they would be the first to nail him to the cross again in fury. Pray they let the hatred for Christ and his Church go and they find Christ’s love before it is too late. I will never try and turn a protestant away from Christ or his way of believing even if I think it is lacking in the fullness intended by Christ. I will explain my beliefs and then leave it up to that person.”

I try now and stick to the caucus threads and leave evil to consume itself.

278 posted on 12/16/2010 10:51:36 AM PST by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: Cronos

++++Think that Jesus Christ was just a container for God, not actually God in flesh?
Think that Jesus Christ was created by God, just a creature, not God?
Think that Jesus Christ is akin to the ark, a created thing, not God?<++++

The very ARK, the container itself was a type of christ, are you saying Mary was equal to Christ?

There is no question but that the Ark was a figure of spiritual things as was the entire tabernacle (Hebrews 9:8-9). It was a type or pattern of things in Heaven (Hebrews 9:23, Revelation 11:19). Let us contemplate some of the particular aspects of this symbolism:

A. The Wood - The shittim wood used in the construction of the Ark has always been viewed as a type of Christ’s human nature (John 1:14). It points to the condescension of Christ in coming in the form of a man (Isaiah 53:2).

B. The Gold - The Ark was overlaid with gold inside and out. This has always been seen as a type of Christ’s divine nature (John 1:1). The wood and the gold united in one Ark reveal the two natures of Christ united in one person (I Timothy 3:16).

C. The Ark’s Contents - In Hebrews 9:4 the contents of the Ark are listed. There is a symbolic significance associated with each of these items:

(1) The stone tables of the law received by Moses on Mt. Sinai were placed in the Ark and gave it the name “Ark of the Covenant.” This pointed to Christ as the one who not only kept the law but had it in His heart (Psalm 40:7-8, Galatians 4:4). In Christ the law was fully honored while at the same time mercy was made possible (Psalm 85:10).

(2) Aaron’s rod that budded was placed in the Ark. A careful reading of Numbers 16 & 17 will show that this rod was a symbol and proof of priestly authority. In the Ark it signified that Christ was the great high priest of God’s choosing.

(3) A pot of manna was kept in the Ark. This not only reminded Israel of God’s provision for them but also pointed to Christ as the bread of life (Exodus 16:32-34, John 6:48-51).

D. The Golden Crown - The crown or cornice on the Ark called attention to the kingship of Christ. As a priest after the order of Melchizedek our Saviour is both priest and king (Hebrews 7:1 & 17). Some have referred to the Ark as God’s throne on earth.

E. The Mercy Seat - The Mercy Seat was the solid gold lid that set on the Ark. The Hebrew word translated “Mercy Seat” means propitiatory or the place where propitiation is made. To propitiate means to pacify or conciliate an angry party. God was angry with us as sinners but Christ became our propitiation or mercy seat (Romans 3:25, I John 4:10).

Once a year the great high priest would enter the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of sacrifices on the Mercy Seat (Leviticus 16:1-15). This was a foreshadowing of Christ’s redemptive work (Hebrews 9:1-8, 12, 24).

His blood enables the Father to forgive our sins (Ephesians 1:7). The publican in Luke 18:13 prayed for mercy. The Greek word translated “merciful” could be translated propitious or mercy seat.

F. The Golden Cherubim - The cherubim overlooking the Mercy Seat reveal the interest that the angels have in the saving work of Christ (I Peter 1:12, Ephesians 3:10). Note: Some have used the cherubim to justify the use of idols and images in worship. They forget that while there were images of cherubims there were no images of God.

G. The Pillar - The Shekinah glory that hovered over the Mercy Seat was a manifestation of God’s glory (Psalm 80:1 & 99:1). God met with His people through the mediation of Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5). He dwelt with Israel at the place where the blood was sprinkled. The entire tabernacle revealed God dwelling with His people through Christ (John 1:14).

http://www.firstbaptistchurchindependence.org/tabernacle.ark.cov.html


Only Catholics that keep trying to legitimize their worship of Mary want to turn a type of Christ into a type of Mary

That my friend is blasphemy


279 posted on 12/16/2010 10:58:57 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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ph


280 posted on 12/16/2010 10:59:49 AM PST by xone
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