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Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ ^ | Dennis B. Neuenschwander

Posted on 01/02/2011 5:46:30 PM PST by Paragon Defender

Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ

By Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander Of the Seventy




Dennis B. Neuenschwander, “Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Jan 2009, 16–22

Adapted from a presentation to the Seventy.




In the Doctrine and Covenants we read that Joseph Smith was “called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ” (D&C 20:2). The call of an Apostle is first to witness or testify of Jesus Christ. Old Testament prophets testified of His coming. The New Testament Apostles bore personal witness of Christ’s being and of the absolute reality of His Resurrection. This apostolic witness was the basis of their teaching. “Ye shall be witnesses unto me” (Acts 1:8) was Jesus’s instruction to the original Twelve. Peter testified on the day of Pentecost to the Jews who had gathered “out of every nation” (Acts 2:5) that “this Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses” (Acts 2:32). Similarly, Paul wrote to the Corinthians that Jesus “was seen of me also” (1 Corinthians 15:8). The sure witness of Christ’s being and the reality of His Resurrection is the first pillar of apostolic testimony.

The second pillar is centered on the Savior’s redemptive and saving power. Peter teaches that to the Lord “give all the Prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Without these twin pillars of testimony concerning Christ, there could be no Apostle. Such testimonies are born of experience, divine command, and instruction. For example, Luke writes that Christ showed Himself to the Apostles “alive after his passion … being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3).

How does the Prophet Joseph Smith fit into these apostolic requirements? The answer is “Perfectly.”

The First Vision

Joseph Smith’s apostolic instruction began in 1820. Pondering the questions of religion, he soon found that there was no way to reason or argue one’s opinion to an authoritative conclusion concerning the correctness of the various churches or their doctrines. Short of a divine manifestation, young Joseph could add only one more opinion to the already existing “war of words and tumult of opinions” (Joseph Smith—History 1:10). But Joseph’s questions on religion were answered by the personal and physical manifestation of God the Father and His divine and living Son, Jesus Christ—an experience referred to as the First Vision.

Like that of the original Apostles, Joseph’s experience with Deity was direct and personal. There was no need for the opinion of others or the deliberations of a council to define what he saw or what it came to mean to him. Joseph’s vision was at first an intensely personal experience—an answer to a specific question. Over time, however, illuminated by additional experience and instruction, it became the founding revelation of the Restoration.

As apostolic as this manifestation of Christ’s being, existence, and Resurrection was to Joseph Smith, it was not the only thing Jesus wanted to teach him. The boy Joseph’s first lesson arose from the manifestation of Christ’s absolute, omnipotent, and divine power. Joseph learned firsthand at least one meaning of the redeeming and saving power of Christ when he prayed in the grove. As he began to pray, “Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction” (Joseph Smith—History 1:15). With every bit of energy Joseph had, he began to call upon God to deliver him from the grasp of this enemy.

“At the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction … , I saw a pillar of light. …

“It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).

Joseph Smith’s confrontation with the adversary is reminiscent of an experience Moses had, about which the Prophet would learn some few years later. Unlike the boy Joseph, however, Moses saw God’s greatness first and then was confronted with the power of the adversary before being delivered from his influence. (See Moses 1.)

The difference in the order of events is significant. Moses was already far into maturity and had much knowledge and influence prior to this event. By displaying His magnificent power to Moses before he faced the adversary, the Lord helped Moses put his life into perspective. After experiencing God’s glory, Moses said, “Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed” (Moses 1:10). This incident enabled Moses to withstand the temptations of the adversary that followed.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, was an inexperienced young man, who in his lifetime would repeatedly face adversarial power and the overwhelming problems it brings. By facing the adversary first, then being saved from his assault by the appearance of the Father and the Son, Joseph learned this indelible lesson: as great as the power of evil might be, it must always withdraw with the appearance of righteousness.

This lesson was critical in Joseph’s apostolic education. He needed this knowledge not only because of the personal trials that lay ahead of him but also because of the overwhelming opposition he would face in founding and directing the Church.

The boy Joseph went into the grove seeking wisdom, and wisdom he received. His apostolic instruction had begun. Among the great apostolic lessons of this First Vision were both the physical nature of the Savior and Heavenly Father and the initial and fundamental lessons relating to Their power—each a pillar of apostolic testimony.

The Book of Mormon

Joseph Smith’s early apostolic instruction continued with his translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon gave Joseph access to “the fulness of the everlasting Gospel” (Joseph Smith—History 1:34), principles that were necessary to understand even prior to the organization of the Church. The Prophet was introduced to numerous “plain and most precious” (1 Nephi 13:26) prophetic and apostolic testimonies regarding the Savior, all of which served as models for him.

Indeed, the Book of Mormon prophets employ over 100 titles in their teachings of Christ, each of which helped Joseph understand the Savior’s divine role.1 By virtue of these teachings, Joseph Smith became intimately acquainted with ancient prophets, giving him insight into the divine purpose of his responsibilities.

The Book of Mormon illuminates the universality of Christ’s Atonement. The Savior’s holy sacrifice is not confined to the borders of the Holy Land of His day or even restricted to the apostolic world of the original Twelve. The Atonement encompasses all of God’s creations—past, present, and future. What an impression Jacob’s teaching of the “infinite atonement” (2 Nephi 9:7) must have made on the mind of young Joseph, especially in contrast to Christian teachings at the time.

The Book of Mormon also introduces the universality of the Resurrection and other doctrines relating to it. Discourses on this doctrine by Lehi, Jacob, King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma, Amulek, Samuel the Lamanite, and Moroni are all rich sources of instruction.

During the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Prophet received additional valuable personal instruction concerning the redemptive and saving power of Christ. In 1828 Martin Harris persuaded Joseph to lend him the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript. When Martin Harris lost those pages, the Prophet felt an enormous despair.2 His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recorded that Joseph exclaimed: “Oh, my God! … All is lost! all is lost! What shall I do? I have sinned—it is I who tempted the wrath of God. … How shall I appear before the Lord? Of what rebuke am I not worthy from the angel of the Most High?”3

For well over a month the Lord left Joseph in this terrible condition of remorse.4 Then came relief and the apostolic lesson. The Lord told Joseph:

“The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught. …

“For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him” (D&C 3:1, 4).

These words carefully describe what Joseph Smith had been experiencing. He had learned the exacting nature of the apostolic call and to whom the Apostle, at all cost, owes his loyalty. “Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words,” Joseph was told, “yet you should have been faithful” (D&C 3:7–8). Joseph Smith had lost access to the plates for a season and had been taught an invaluable lesson. Subsequently, the plates were returned, and his position as translator restored.

How critical were the lessons provided by the translation of the Book of Mormon as Joseph Smith grew in his apostolic calling! The Book of Mormon is the “keystone of our religion”5 because it contains so many prophetic testimonies of Christ and stands as a tangible witness of the Restoration.

Continuing Revelation and Scripture

After finishing the translation of the Book of Mormon in 1829 and organizing the Church in 1830, Joseph Smith had the opportunity to receive continuing apostolic education through the process of translating other scripture. This included three years of translating the Bible and, beginning in 1835, translating the book of Abraham. Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible expanded his understanding of the role of Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles. It also resulted in additional revelation, namely the book of Moses.

The book of Moses provided the Prophet with important knowledge about the Savior’s ministry, including His role in the Creation. “The Lord spake unto Moses, saying: … I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things” (Moses 2:1). Further, He said, “And worlds without number have I created; … and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).

The book of Moses clarified Christ’s relationship to the Father in the premortal existence and reinforced the Prophet’s understanding of the ascendant power of righteousness. One of the most beautiful of all the apostolic lessons that came to Joseph Smith in this revelation was the confirmation of God’s love. It was so different from the harsh, unforgiving, and judgmental personage so many believed God to be; the book of Moses reveals a God of infinite compassion. Enoch saw that the “God of heaven … wept” (Moses 7:28) over those who would not receive Him. Wishing to know how it was possible, Enoch was given an answer that has a familiar biblical feel to it: “I [have] given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father. … Wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?” (Moses 7:33, 37; see also Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37–39).

Through the translation of the book of Moses, the Prophet also became more acquainted with the redeeming and saving power of the Savior. As the Lord said, this earth was created “by the word of my power” (Moses 1:32) for the purpose of bringing “to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Many long years before the Savior taught Thomas and the Twelve that “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6), He revealed to Moses that “this is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time” (Moses 6:62).

The First Vision in the grove, the translation of the Book of Mormon, the revision of the Bible, the revelation of the book of Moses, and the translation of the book of Abraham laid the basic foundation of the Church, largely through the rapidly expanding knowledge and testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith relating to Jesus Christ.

Revelations given to him and compiled in the Doctrine and Covenants contain a wealth of knowledge concerning the Savior. One could research the numerous topics and cross-references of the Topical Guide and Guide to the Scriptures referring to Jesus Christ and still not understand the breadth of information on the Savior that the Prophet Joseph Smith brought to the world. I am grateful to know that Jesus was “in the beginning with the Father” (D&C 93:21). I am grateful to know that He “suffered these things for [me], that [I] might not suffer if [I] would repent” (D&C 19:16).

My Testimony of What the Prophet Revealed

I am grateful for yet one other thing about the Savior’s ministry that stirs my soul deeply. From studying the promises of Malachi, Moroni’s initial visit with Joseph, the Savior’s words to the Nephites, and the visit of Elijah in the Kirtland Temple, I learn that God loves His children and has provided a way for each to return to Him. I know of no doctrine more just, no teaching that gives more hope than that of redemption of the dead. I am so grateful for the revelations that teach me that the Savior’s Atonement reaches to those who have lived, loved, served, and hoped for a better day yet never heard of Jesus or had the opportunity to embrace His gospel. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to convert me to the gospel if I knew nothing else at all. Here, at least for me, is the ultimate testimony of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

What, then, can be said of the incomparable saving power of Christ? That which Joseph Smith learned in the Sacred Grove about the power of righteousness overcoming evil foreshadows the final scene. So reveals the Lord:

“I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

“Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment” (D&C 19:2–3).

Our own testimonies of the Savior are framed by the testimony and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Is it any wonder then that the Prophet taught that “the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”6

Joseph Smith’s apostolic testimony of the divine reality and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as well as his knowledge of the redemptive and saving power of the Savior, can best be seen by the Prophet’s own beautiful, powerful, and succinct witness:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).

How grateful I am for the apostolic call of Joseph Smith.





1. See Book of Mormon Reference Companion, ed. Dennis L. Largey (2003), 457–58.

2. See Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, ed. Preston Nibley (1958), 128–29.

3. History of Joseph Smith, 128, 129.

4. The 116 pages were lost in June 1828. In July Joseph Smith received what is now section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In September the plates were returned to the Prophet. See the historical introductions to D&C 3; 10.

5. History of the Church, 4:461.

6. History of the Church, 3:30.







TOPICS: Breaking News; Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: braking; cult; heresy; inman; lds; lies; notbreakingnews; propaganda; religion
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I will admit, that seeing ANY JST references instead of POGP surprised me.

Apology accepted.

This is newer than my resignation three years ago, or at least my last purchased copy of LDS scriptures.

Pretty sure this dates back before that. I was using my "mission" scriptures to look up JST examples, which have a copyright date of 1979. I think that is about the time they first included them.

You did not create the website, and I'm sure you didn't check them all any more than I did.

You are correct there. Thanks for not making a big deal about that.

Tell me though, really, how is it possible that they don't use the whole JST ? Seems like a slap in the face to Joseph Smith. He said God told him to do it, and it took him years, why just discard it like that ?

The common explanation is that Joseph never completed them. If you were following reaganaut and my side conversation, there are two published versions (non-LDS official, BTW) of the JST-side-by-side with the KJV, one from the '70s and one in the last few years. The selling point of the more recent one is that they gained access to the RLDS archives and extracted newly-found, non-published additional sections. To me that suggests that the 1970s version was incomplete, and therefore any earlier version was incomplete, too.

A secondary explanation that I have heard is that we choose to use the commonly accepted KJV in order to not alienate non-members. For example, some times someone brings in a non-KJV Bible and reads from it in a Sunday School class. Everyone else in the room is looking at the KJV, and looks puzzled at the non-familiar text. For the record, I enjoy comparing the various translations, to see how various people considered certain words or concepts.

I would suspect the actual answer includes both of these, as well as the animosity between the RLDS and the LDS, preventing easy early adoption.

We also don't use the parts we do have much. It is looked at as a study guide and not a compete text. But this last Sunday in the adult Sunday School class there was a lengthy reading from the JST in the appendix (I think it was from John 1 - we are studying the New Testament this year).

901 posted on 01/03/2011 1:52:37 PM PST by T. P. Pole
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To: CharlesWayneCT
The statement closest to your interpretation was that the title was “insulting”, for those who reject the LDS beliefs

Actually, it was pulled because it was blasphemy.

902 posted on 01/03/2011 1:53:24 PM PST by T Minus Four ("Vital truths were restored by God through Joseph Smith. I just can't think of one")
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I often ask and am allowed on caucus threads (mostly Catholic and Orthodox) because of my background in both of those faiths and my scholarship areas even though i am not actually a member of either caucus.

And it will probably be a cold day in Hell before I am invited or allowed in an LDS caucus thread.

903 posted on 01/03/2011 1:53:33 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: DelphiUser
Nice, I do not condone polygamy. It Is an illegal practice and my religion requires me to obey the laws of the land.


To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.



The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place
if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us.
(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it.
(From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

What kind of  'Leadership' is THIS???
compared to...
Hebrews 11:35-40
 35.  Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
 36.  Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
 37.  They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
 38.  the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 
or compared to...

Acts 4:19.  But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.

So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!
Well; it DID last about 47 years!

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President


904 posted on 01/03/2011 1:53:33 PM PST by Elsie
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To: DelphiUser
For God fearing men God's word not law determines morality.

HA ha ha!

POLYGAMY is STILL on the books!

MORMONism's book, anyway.

Just WHY don't you folks follow what GOD told you to do in D&C 132 instead of what the GOV'T tells you not to do?

905 posted on 01/03/2011 1:55:22 PM PST by Elsie
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To: reaganaut

My head might explode trying to keep track of it all. He butchered the bible.

906 posted on 01/03/2011 1:55:49 PM PST by SENTINEL (Mormonism...from Ezra Taft Benson to Reid and Romney in only one generation.)
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To: T. P. Pole

I agree with Erasmus: “If I have a little money, I buy books. If I have any left over, I buy food and clothing”.

I also have large wish lists of books on amazon that I ask for for Christmas/Birthdays. lol

Wait another year or two and you should be able to pick up a used copy.

907 posted on 01/03/2011 1:55:54 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: T Minus Four
Just a side question: What makes you believe the bible is true? This is a serious question, open to any LDS person:
I am told that you pray to discover that the Book of Mormon is true, and than if it is, you get a "burning in your bosom".
What gauge do you use to determine if the bible is true?

I can't speak for everyone, the "Burning in your bosom" is a biblical quotation about the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and how the Lord spoke to them and they didn't know it was him and later when they found out, they said they should have know because they had a burning in their bosom.

As for witnesses, some people have the burning bosom, some people have visions, some people have other experiences. God know what is the perfect communication for you and that is what he'll use. For me it was very specific, and undeniable, God knows that I know what he told me.

I used the same test on both, and I talk about it on my page at FR, I also have posted My Testimony on my page at FR.

908 posted on 01/03/2011 1:56:01 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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Good point, that. I may give it a try anyway.

909 posted on 01/03/2011 1:57:09 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: CharlesWayneCT
I don’t understand why people would willingly choose to read the caucus thread of a religion they think is a joke.

It's not a joke, it's a deadly deception.

Besides, it rarely takes long to scan an LDS caucus thread. There's the post, a couple of high-fives, sometimes a few pulled posts from people who wandered in.

Thirty seconds tops.

910 posted on 01/03/2011 1:57:10 PM PST by T Minus Four ("Vital truths were restored by God through Joseph Smith. I just can't think of one")
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To: Colofornian
So many Mormons are like a boxer who dresses up, heads into the ring, goes to someone on the other side of the rope, tries to bash their head in, and then as soon as somebody starts to head into the ring, the Mormon boxer says: "Now don't be contentious here!"


I LOVE it!

911 posted on 01/03/2011 1:57:17 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (("A Leftist assumption: Making money doesn't entitle you to it, but wanting money does.")
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To: restornu
This is a dot com and the Church sites are dot org

HAve you reseached PD's infamous List-o-Links?

It might have TWO orgs on it...

912 posted on 01/03/2011 1:57:19 PM PST by Elsie
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To: TaraP; F15Eagle

.I have never been in a Mormon Temple....

- - - - - -
Nor would you be allowed. The LDS temples are only for the select few who are deemed ‘worthy’ by obeying legalistic rules and paying a full tithe.

913 posted on 01/03/2011 1:58:39 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: DelphiUser

Thanks, but I didn’t ask for a definition of “burning in the bosom”. I asked what brought you to believe that the bible is true.

914 posted on 01/03/2011 1:59:17 PM PST by T Minus Four ("Vital truths were restored by God through Joseph Smith. I just can't think of one")
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To: DelphiUser

The stop snarking about him to the fourth wall.

915 posted on 01/03/2011 2:00:14 PM PST by T Minus Four ("Vital truths were restored by God through Joseph Smith. I just can't think of one")
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To: ejonesie22

Just don’t teeter on looking like those of the Westboro Baptist Church...

916 posted on 01/03/2011 2:00:25 PM PST by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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Delphi, this is the fourth time now I will ask you infront of all those that will read this thread. You continue to ignore the most simple of questions.

Which bible do you use, the one "retranslated" by the man you claimed "communed with God face to face....Or the KJV as commanded by Brigham Young after he declared the Joseph Smith Translation a fraud ?

Your slience on this matter is deafening.

Don't bother with a bunch of links to spin sites...One word will do.

Which bible do you use, JST, or KJV ?

This is the fourth time I'm answering your question... KJV.

What, are you hoping I'll change my answer? Are you just hyper and don't realize this is not "real time" Maybe your just not aware that other people are posting to me as well as yourself? Either way, get a grip!

917 posted on 01/03/2011 2:00:40 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: reaganaut; CharlesWayneCT

I was booted from caucus threads while I was still officially a member of the LDS Church. That’s when I knew I had to officially resign. It was the Mormons here on FR that helped me understand it was time to cut the strings once and for all.

Questions and disagreement just aren’t allowed within Mormonism.

918 posted on 01/03/2011 2:00:53 PM PST by colorcountry (Comforting lies are not your friends. Painful truths are not your enemies.)
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To: T Minus Four; DelphiUser

If the Bible is true, Mormonism is false. If Mormonism is true then the Bible is false.

real simple there.

919 posted on 01/03/2011 2:01:24 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
I have my moments...
920 posted on 01/03/2011 2:01:56 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: reaganaut; TaraP
Tara, did you know that like the Jehova's Witnesses, Joseph Smith falsely prophesied the date of the second coming ?

I must give the mormon church credit however, they only did it once compared to 7 (I think) times for the witnesses.

• "President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).FLDS/LDS Prophet Joseph Smith 1835. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.

921 posted on 01/03/2011 2:02:27 PM PST by SENTINEL (Mormonism...from Ezra Taft Benson to Reid and Romney in only one generation.)
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To: reaganaut

I have scanned many entries involving Mormans and politics, but so far, have not seen anything about Howard Hughes’ connection to the church. According to one biographer a Wall Street Journal reporter, Hughes’ constant companions were Mormans, right to the end of his life. Senator Bennet, Utah, has mentioned on the Senate floor, his years of working for Howard Hughes. A biography of former attorney and Secretary of Defense, Clark Clifford, mentions that Hughes had Clifford on retainer of fifty years, though he never laid eyes on the man. Then . . . there was the Morman will.

922 posted on 01/03/2011 2:03:47 PM PST by TiaS
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To: DelphiUser
Wii, clay pot, same difference, LOL!

Tithing was not a mosaic law, Abraham followed it, so it was not fulfilled, besides the early Christians followed it too.

How would you know?

IMHO Regardless of what denomination you are, all Bible followers should be paying tithing to their church

So your opinion on the matter is final?

923 posted on 01/03/2011 2:04:26 PM PST by T Minus Four ("Vital truths were restored by God through Joseph Smith. I just can't think of one")
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To: reaganaut
(Christianity).....”We don’t hide embarrassing doctrine until we get converts so involved they have difficulty backing out”......

....which is exactly the case with Mormonism and occults. They create an environment of artificial love and acceptance which is ‘not real’....rather all members are mindful of the various requirements they are to uphold and what it must ‘look like’ in order to gain the respectability of their membership and leadership. It is a self-serving fasade with the focus on works and ritualistic hoops one must go thru to achieve the next level of acceptance and “enlightenment”....and along the way Jesus’ name is attached merely as an afterthought in order to legitimize those endeavors.

924 posted on 01/03/2011 2:05:48 PM PST by caww
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To: TaraP
Far from it. I stick with what the Bible tells us is allowed.

Some who are simply lost or seeking require a gentle hand, others, being fully blinded by the machinations of the Evil One, need a little more "encouragement"...

And for those who attack and malign my Savior, my disdain and full rebuke...

925 posted on 01/03/2011 2:06:11 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: reaganaut
Martyrs don't fight back.

From Foxe's Book of Martyrs: "Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defence; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586."

926 posted on 01/03/2011 2:07:21 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: T Minus Four

In James’s proclamation to the Gentiles being born again (found in Acts fifteen, IIRC) I don’t find delph’s specious assertion corroborated.

927 posted on 01/03/2011 2:07:52 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: caww

X <———[ Placemarker ]

928 posted on 01/03/2011 2:08:12 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: restornu
Same here the accusation means more than proof.

We know that is standard Mormon Belief:

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

929 posted on 01/03/2011 2:08:54 PM PST by Elsie
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To: RCFlyer

Thank you for such a kind post that is a reflection of what I think Jesus Christ would post...

GOD’s Blessings....


930 posted on 01/03/2011 2:09:39 PM PST by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: bibletruth

The Bible makes it perfectly clear that there is not gift of Biblical Apostles of Jesus Christ TODAY

Sorry. We’ll just have to disagree on the correct translation of these things.

931 posted on 01/03/2011 2:09:45 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: DelphiUser
Man, I'm laughing here. You were answering everyone else's posts so I know you were around.

I guess you're the minority here, trying to stand up against a dozen of us single handedly at times.

I'm sure you were just busy and not waiting until you though T.P. had me stumped to answer.

932 posted on 01/03/2011 2:09:53 PM PST by SENTINEL (Mormonism...from Ezra Taft Benson to Reid and Romney in only one generation.)
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To: reaganaut

Yep...and nice seeing you round and always.

933 posted on 01/03/2011 2:10:12 PM PST by caww
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To: DelphiUser
You do know that Mormons have a newer updated law of health called the Work of wisdom, right?

You mean "Word" of wisdonm, of course. Got it right here: Word of Wisdom

I have a news flash - the part about meat being used sparingly is pretty dang funny. If you broke a levitical law you had to make a sin offering of a slaughtered animal. That would be ironic .

Priest: OK next! Gimme the ox. What's the sin it's covering?

Mormon penitant: I had seconds at the BBQ. And I drank a six pack of Dr. Pepper

934 posted on 01/03/2011 2:11:45 PM PST by T Minus Four ("Vital truths were restored by God through Joseph Smith. I just can't think of one")
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To: DelphiUser; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

I never said not to pray at all. We are not to pray if something is true or not. Prayer is a conversation not a measurement of truth. I don’t need to pray to know the BoM is false. That can be discovered intellectually.

And don’t give me that, you know as well as I do that the ‘burning the the bosom’ or feelings is how the LDS gain their testimony.

I know Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and some Aramaic and have done work on the DSS. I know Jesus lived and died for me because I have studied the Bible, the MSS, and the external sources and have weighed the evidence of the Historical Jesus and the reliability of the Bible. Therefore, if the Bible is reliable and it tells me that Jesus lived and died on the cross for my sins then I believe it. Objective truth.

Your radio analogy makes no sense. Moroni’s promise is designed to elicit a certain response and if you don’t get that response it implies it is YOUR fault.

No a charlatan will convince people to pray about something that doesn’t need to be prayed about and tell them that if they don’t get a certain response then they aren’t doing it right.

Again, NOWHERE in the Bible are we told to pray about doctrine or if something is true or not. NOWHERE EVER. That is your first mistake. I prayed to know the truth no matter what it cost me and it cost me my Mormonism.

So, yes I would tell people investigating the LDS NOT to pray, because it is a way that SATAN deceives them and it is not biblical at all.

935 posted on 01/03/2011 2:12:10 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
Next they will be posting “Praise to the Man”...

CAn't you WAIT?

My mouse needs anew battery!

936 posted on 01/03/2011 2:12:18 PM PST by Elsie
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To: T. P. Pole
"The common explanation is that Joseph never completed them."

Just FYI, Smith made it from Genesis 1 to the last book of his heavily edited version of Revelation. He completed his work.

937 posted on 01/03/2011 2:12:47 PM PST by SENTINEL (Mormonism...from Ezra Taft Benson to Reid and Romney in only one generation.)
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To: reaganaut
We used to buy tons of books for the kids. Recently I am finding that the internet serves just as well. For example, my wife was looking at a "holidays around the world" type of book. I just couldn't restrict myself to the limitations of a single book.

So the only books I am buying these days tend to be things you cannot find on the internet. Biographies, specific science texts, etc. If it is reference, though, I struggle to purchase.

938 posted on 01/03/2011 2:13:32 PM PST by T. P. Pole
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To: reaganaut
Well since Mormonism has been proven false beyond the shadow of reasoned doubt (or self interested minds) we kinda know how that one plays...
939 posted on 01/03/2011 2:13:38 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: DelphiUser; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

BTW, I am a descendant of Abraham with the genealogy to prove it. [Delphi user]

- - - - - -
Oh guys. Get a load of THIS claim. ROFLMAO

940 posted on 01/03/2011 2:14:11 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: ejonesie22; restornu
Yes, Moses and Abraham ACTUALLY DID...


THEY only did it with GOD; while JS mingled with godS!

941 posted on 01/03/2011 2:15:11 PM PST by Elsie
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To: CharlesWayneCT
The caucus definition was changed because when Christians looked at the title Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ they see it saying that Joseph Smith is an Apostle of the Savior (and God) of the Christian faith Jesus Christ.

That in it's self is deceptive, because the Jesus Christ of mainstream Christianity has no apostle named Joseph Smith.

If the title would have said Joseph Smith: An Apostle of (the Mormon) Jesus Christ I doubt there would have been a problem.

There is a great divide between the Mormon jesus and the Christian Jesus Christ.

942 posted on 01/03/2011 2:15:13 PM PST by Syncro
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To: restornu
Don’t feel bad the stealth war on the LDS is now in the open!

War? You exaggerate. No blood has been spilt; no harm has been done to us or the Lord's work.

I frequently disagree with what is written about Mormons and Mormonism here. Rather than complain about being mistreated, it is better to set the record straight. I appreciate the opportunity that Free Republic offers us to respond to attacks on our faith.

Restornu, what anti-Mormons do and say about us is far less a concern to me than what some Mormons do and say in response. Thin-skinned Mormons probably should not read critical articles.

943 posted on 01/03/2011 2:15:23 PM PST by Logophile
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To: reaganaut

Protestants, as I understand it, believe that there was a falling away, or apostasy from the the original church, or else they would not have broken off from Catholicism.

I understand that Catholics believe that the keys of the kingdom have been with the Roman Catholic Church from the beginning until now.

As far as the three Nephites are concerned (and John the Beloved), they were separated from the world by God for a particular mission. They are to tarry until the Lord comes, doing a special work.

944 posted on 01/03/2011 2:15:29 PM PST by Normandy
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To: Colofornian

They poke a stick at a pit bull and then complain when it snaps at them!

945 posted on 01/03/2011 2:18:14 PM PST by Elsie
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To: reaganaut

He’s made that claim on FR before, years ago. Sadly, I think he actually believes it!

946 posted on 01/03/2011 2:18:31 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Religion Moderator

“Jesus should have packed heat”


947 posted on 01/03/2011 2:20:35 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: caww

.rather all members are mindful of the various requirements they are to uphold and what it must ‘look like’ in order to gain the respectability of their membership and leadership

= = = = = = = = = = = = =

There is a guy named Shawn McCraney who wrote a book called “Born again Mormon” where he tells that even though he was an active Mormon he eventually became an atheist but still did what he was expected and was accepted just fine.

After he got saved, and started talking about Jesus and grace, he was shunned and told he wasn’t a ‘good Mormon’ anymore. Eventually he left.

It is an interesting read.

948 posted on 01/03/2011 2:21:36 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: colorcountry

I was booted from caucus threads while I was still officially a member of the LDS Church.
***Ok, that’s something I had not considered. I’m glad you were shown the light of truth through this exercise.

949 posted on 01/03/2011 2:22:00 PM PST by Kevmo (Turning the Party over to the so-called moderates wouldn't make any sense at all. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: Elsie

Well that makes sense. As with everything LDS, it is all about the numbers...

950 posted on 01/03/2011 2:22:00 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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