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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: Cronos; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl; kosta50
Mark is pointing out the meaning of the word infallible viz. Fallible means able to make a mistake or able to teach error.

I'd suggest you go back through this discussion, especially the discussion with Alamo-Girl and where kosta was pinged which is where I stuck my nose in. Contrary to the historical teachings of the Church, many Catholics today, like the Orthodox, no longer believe the scriptures to be the actual infallible, inerrant word of God. Instead they believe it all embodied in the Church. Their claim is that we no longer have the original manuscripts. What worst, they'll present the arguments many atheists/agnostics present to discredit the scriptures.

If you think I'm being harsh, I would recommend you follow objectively many of the arguments Catholics will present about God's word on this site. Why would they do this? Anything that takes away authority from Rome is a threat. If scriptures is the only thing that is infallible, then EVERY OTHER WRITING IS FALLIBLE. That includes every creed of man, every Church dogma, etc. They all could be suspect. The only way you can determine the truth is by going back to that which is infallible. That is why the Bible must be discredited; to preserve the authority of the Church. This is sooooooo contrary to the teachings of the fathers.

You might as well just toss out the Bible. People in the Church will tell you what to believe.

2,301 posted on 01/31/2011 11:36:22 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Cronos; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom; RnMomof7; blue-duncan; Gamecock; TSgt; ...
Re: your comments on the Rapture, etc.

Thankfully, none of the beliefs you listed involves a person's salvation.

Men are free to read the Bible and believe a variety of eschatalogical perspectives. It makes for interesting dialogue between Christians.

But eschatalogy does not determine whether or not a man will be saved and go to heaven (much to the disappointment of many Roman Catholic apologists who seek to divide the body of Christ rather than edify it.)

Far more serious to a man's eternal well-being are the papist teachings of praying to Mary as a "co-redeemer" and believing its priests are "another Christ." Those foul errors are total idolatry. Nothing else. And those given eyes to see know this and flee from it.

Likewise, it shames the cross of Christ to believe His one-time, perfect, completed sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save His sheep. It reveals a real lack of faith in Christ and God's promises.

And to believe fallible old men and their traditions are the equal if not superior to the word of God is blasphemy for it denies God's own instruction and Christ's teaching.

The list goes on and on. Rome's bloody history reveals its true intent - domination over all men. That is not the intent of Protestant churches who know that only God gives ears to hear and that real liberty is only achieved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And so we preach the Gospel to all men. We don't desire a return to the Inquisition, as several Roman Catholics have called for on this forum.

Please note that the excerpts from the OPC website you quote are written by one man; not a magisterium. A particular perspective on the end times is not a requirement for salvation. If you want to learn what Presbyterians believe, read the WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH or the HEIDELBERG CATECHISM.

But here's the part that must really unglue the Roman Catholic apologist who seeks to stir up division as if all disagreements equaled the unparalleled idolatry of Rome...

Those two confessions are denominational distinctives. IMO they are Scriptural and bring the believer into a right alignment with God's word.

Other true Christians are free to differ about a lot of what is written there, according to their God-given conscience. As has been said many times, most of us Protestants could sit in a pew of most Protestant churches and gratefully join with the congregation in worshiping the God of our merciful salvation with gratitude and joy.

I, personally, could not say that about a Roman Catholic mass. I am repelled by the alter which is turned away from the congregation. I am put off by the glitz and gold and fluttering cherubs which seek to take my mind off the risen Christ. I decry the lack of a sound sermon based on the word of God alone, which is the very reason we meet in church in the first place. And most of all, I cannot sit and watch men attempt to perform pagan alchemy on the Lord's Supper. It's all I can do not to rise up, like Cromwell, and knock the table over (which, in heels, would definitely end up with me in a cast.) Who needs the aggravation?

Therefore, without these glaring, anti-Scriptural insults to the church of Christ on earth, it's not so difficult for most Protestants, knowing full well that only God knows the heart, to look beyond the various distinctions in most Protestant churches to discern whether or not a man has true faith in Jesus Christ ALONE as revealed by the fruits of the Holy Spirit in his life. If a man kneels to the stock of a tree, prays to images of dead men, considers a "co-redeemer" as intrinsic to their salvation, believes they are led by "another Christ," and has no real confidence in Christ's finished work on the cross, then we are not foolish to view that attitude with skepticism and disdain.

OTOH, if a man displays a heartfelt belief in Jesus Christ as his ONLY Savior, King, Redeemer and God, then Christ's particular, transforming directive has been fulfilled...

"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36

The rest of the Christian religion will be accrued according to that person's sanctification, a long and steady walk towards Paradise, God willing.

And finally, one of the greatest errors of the church in Rome is that it literally denies the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's sheep. Instead Rome says the Holy Spirit works on the church, which then in turn works on its members. By arrogantly inserting itself between God and men, Rome effectively denies the personal, individual work of the Holy Spirit within us.

This error was one of the hallmarks of the Reformation - Rome cannot usurp the role of the Holy Spirit, try as it might.

"Faith is a steady and certain knowledge of the Divine benevolence towards us, which, being founded on the truth of the gratuitous promise in Christ, is both revealed to our minds and confirmed to our hearts, by the Holy Spirit." - John Calvin, Inst. III.ii.7

And since I'm partial to Calvin's perspective, let me conclude this effort with this from him...

"Rome's whole doctrine contains nothing else than big words and bombast, because it is inconsistent with the majesty of Scripture, the efficacy of the Spirit, the gravity of the prophets, and the sincerity of the apostles. It is an absolute profanation of real theology." - Calvin, Past. Epp. 174

2,302 posted on 01/31/2011 11:45:06 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HarleyD
You are the one who asked for Augustine's proof from Augustine's last work -- I gave it to you and it shows that Augustine did not have Calvin's errors of double-predestination. Augustine also believed that one can lose one's salvation.

For Biblical proof, refer

Ezekiel 33:11-17
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—


15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.

16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just.

18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so.

20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”
Or 1 Timothy 2:4 which states that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Note also [1 Timothy 4:10] God is "the Savior of all men, especially those who believe."

Or refer to Augustine's earlier works:


Augustine
"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).
Remember also that Augustine rejected any notion of an invisible Church and believed in sacraments (Augustine too believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist)

Calvinists believe that Calvin corrected Luther and Augustine. The Restoration had guys like Ellen G White, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Adventists etc. who corrected the Reformers.

Foreknowledge
===============

Remember God is out side of space and time. He exists in the eternal NOW. God sees what is past, present, and future for us as one time NOW. This is quite differently from willfully pre-damning a person
2,303 posted on 01/31/2011 11:46:59 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

He attended Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia


2,304 posted on 01/31/2011 11:54:48 AM PST by Lera
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To: Lera; MarkBsnr
Lera Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia --> he was Georgian Orthodox, this was a Georgian Orthodox seminary -- Jesuits generally don't set up Orthodox seminaries......

And he was from Georgia, the ex-Soviet state in the Caucasus, not the American one, you know.

Stop posting lies like Jesuits taught (and ran a Georgian Orthodox seminary to boot!) Josef Stalin
2,305 posted on 01/31/2011 12:04:14 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Lera

Pinging you, Lera...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=2302#2302


2,306 posted on 01/31/2011 12:09:51 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr
Who is 'we'? If you are referring to yourself, remember that you reject the Church in a great number of your posts.

No, I reject your man made religion...Jesus put me into His REAL church the second I got saved...

2,307 posted on 01/31/2011 12:13:02 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom
Yes, this is what the Ortho Presbyterian C thinks of non-Calvinists:
OPC attacks. This is from the OPC Q&A site
It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.

In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. ....

Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost.

The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.
This states clearly that the OPC wishes to believe that the sending of the Holy Spirit is UNREPEATABLE
Some more OPC attacks on those who believe in the Rapture too
I think that it is wrong to hold (with the Premillennialists) that, from chapter 4:1 on, Revelation is all future.
And the OPC says this about those who deny the non-scriptural double-predestination, God pre-damns people idea of the followers of Calvin. Hence they condemn followers of Christ like Methodists/Pentecostals etc. here is a quote from their site
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.
So, Dr. Eck, as an OPCer, do you believe that
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Are Arminian preachers heretics?

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy?


Finally, since this thread is about the Rapture, here's what the OPC thinks about it and non-Calvinists

taken from the OPC's website where it attacks those who believe in the Rapture too
Question: Do you believe the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture? Will the believers in Christ be taken out of this world while the unbelievers are "left behind" to endure the final tribulations before the last day of this world? And will those unbelievers "left behind" have a last chance to repent?
==============================================

Answer:

The answer is "No" to all questions...

2,308 posted on 01/31/2011 12:17:27 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
2,309 posted on 01/31/2011 12:21:28 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom
So, Dr. Eck, as an OPCer, do you believe that
  1. the beliefs of Methodists/Pentecostlas etc. denying the unscriptural Calvinist philosophy of double-predestination is indeed a heresy,....
  2. That the Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work only on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....
  3. That Arminian preachers (Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals etc.) heretics?
because these are all OPC beliefs given at the opc website

2,310 posted on 01/31/2011 12:22:59 PM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr; Iscool

We is given by sad little folks who are enraged that their “church” is made up of just themselves as everyone else thinks it’s for loons.


2,311 posted on 01/31/2011 12:25:10 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; Gamecock
And, the Westminster Confession of Faith does NOT support your false teachings of double-predestination

And regarding the Westminister Confession of Faith, in the next chapter, XVIII, he points out " this assurance may, in due time, be revived" viz may be revived not a complete assurance.

In chapter IX he wrote
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7] IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only
andChapter XV: Of Repentence unto Life
I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,[1] the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the Gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.[2]

II. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God,[3] purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments.[4]

III. Although repentance is not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,[5] which is the act of God's free grace in Christ,[6] yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.[7]

IV. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation;[8] so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.[9]

V. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.[10]

VI. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof;[11] upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;[12] so he that scandelizeth his brother, or the Church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended;[13] who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him
In fact, in Chapter XVI : Of Good Works he writes
. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith:[3] and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,[4] strengthen their assurance,[5] edify their brethren,[6] adorn the profession of the Gospel,[7] stop the mouths of the adversaries,[8] and glorify God,[9] whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,[10] that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.<[
"strenghten their assurance"? No double predestination in this, sorry.
2,312 posted on 01/31/2011 12:28:43 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos
LOL. Of course the WCF supports double predestination. Your goofy assertions reveal you may not have actually read the confession.

From Chapter III, God's Eternal Decree...

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]

Men are not condemned for their innocence, but for their guilt. Why God gives some men grace and withholds it from others is not ours to know. It is enough to know that Scripture tells us, as Paul's reference above indicates, that He alone determines who is named to His family for His own good reasons. Therefore, men cannot boast; all glory to God alone.

2,313 posted on 01/31/2011 12:39:34 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos

lolol. “Serious errors” in eschatology do not equal the foul idolatry of Rome.

You lose.

Keep it up. I appreciate the links to the OPC website where all men can read and decide for themselves if the Scriptural truth is preached there.


2,314 posted on 01/31/2011 12:42:19 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; betty boop; Quix; metmom; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; HarleyD; Iscool
And my point is, again, how does one know if one is not following the brighest angel if one rejects the Church of Jesus on earth?

I don't recall your putting it that way, but now will respond to your question as stated.

First, we Christians are to follow God Himself - not angels, mortals, organizations, etc.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – I John 1:15

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5

Indeed, we area to be leery of spirits who appear as angels of light.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Cor 11:14

We must try the spirits and never bow to them.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. - 1 John 4:1

And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

Finally, as to how one knows he is following God in his religious observances:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. - I John 4:7-8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

And to that I would add a personal observation about mortals: When we love someone, we want what he wants.

If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.

Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does.

So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."

Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40

Loving God would entail wanting all of the fruits of the Spirit because He wants them: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

It would also entail rejoicing in mercy, immersing ourselves in it because He wants it:

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. – Hosea 6:6

But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. – Matthew 12:7

Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matthew 5:7

And it would entail wanting to be rid of everything that is an abomination to Him – whether in the world around us or in ourselves.

These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. – Proverbs 6:16-19

And finally, what may be the most difficult for us to want that God wants since it involves suffering and destruction – that Jesus will come in power and glory and put down the rebellion that began with Satan and spread through Adam to mankind and then make all things new according to His will.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. – Revelation 21:1-7

To God be the glory, not man (or angels), never man (or angels).

2,315 posted on 01/31/2011 12:49:01 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr
that statement "many..." is false. I believe they are inerrant and all of the religious I know believe the same. Furthermore, it is the dogma of the Church
These books [of the canon] the Church holds to be sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author (De Fide Catholica 2:7).
We have rejected any form of limited inerrancy. This is repeated in VII
it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully, and without error that truth that God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation

2,316 posted on 01/31/2011 12:53:28 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So, Dr. Eck, as an OPCer, do you believe that
  1. the beliefs of Methodists/Pentecostlas etc. denying the unscriptural Calvinist philosophy of double-predestination is indeed a heresy,....
  2. That the Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work only on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....
  3. That Arminian preachers (Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals etc.) heretics?
because these are all OPC beliefs

2,317 posted on 01/31/2011 12:58:40 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

You can re-post any of your idiotic comments all day long and we will STILL not rise to the bait.

It’s clear Rome has no rebuttal to the sound preaching of the Gospel.

So it litters these threads with diversions.

FAIL


2,318 posted on 01/31/2011 1:04:29 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HarleyD
If one truly has the choices of heaven and hell standing before them, what choice would they make?

It's not really a choice is it? Choosing between all good and all bad is not a choice. If there is no choice there is no free will decision either. Your argument is only a disguised Pascal Wager's argument, which says to the effect: might as well believe just to be on the safe side.

No one sane will consciously choose all bad when there is all good to choose as well. Your argument fails. You are Calvinist and your Calvinist religion says that God predestined everyone, before they even existed, whether they will believe or not.

Therefore, here too, your argument of freely choosing Christ falls flat on its face, logically speaking; in other words, the decision was made for you.

Christianity says that faith is salvation and only God can save. Therefore only God can give you faith if he wants to see you saved. You do nothing. You don't give yourself faith; you don;t save yourself by it; you don't earn it. So, where is the "free" choice?

2,319 posted on 01/31/2011 1:14:42 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Alamo-Girl
And to that I would add a personal observation about mortals: When we love someone, we want what he wants.

If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.

AMEN!

And it takes a while to understand that. Real love is doing what we don't particularly want to do but we do it because it makes the other person happy. It's over-coming "self" which is not the natural inclination of men, but its rewards are evident in our relationship with our families and with God.

We love, not because of who we are, but because of who the beloved is.

Loving God would entail wanting all of the fruits of the Spirit because He wants them: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

It would also entail rejoicing in mercy, immersing ourselves in it because He wants it:

And it would entail wanting to be rid of everything that is an abomination to Him – whether in the world around us or in ourselves.

AMEN!

"I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies." -- Psalm 18:1-3


2,320 posted on 01/31/2011 1:24:59 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos; caww
Lev 5:1-4 describes sacrifices for wilful sins

Judaism has 613 mitzvot (commandments) given in the Law, which God gave directly to Moses, of which slightly more than a half are the mitzvot of omission and the rest of commission. The intent is crucial. Those that would count as unforgivable are those intentional and premeditated.

Also, the sacrifice of Christ IS for unwitting sin (Adam's) -- repentance is still necessary in the Christian world for our non-venial sins. We are not Calvinists to believe that we should not repent

Yes, that is correct, all of it.

2,321 posted on 01/31/2011 1:25:16 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Alamo-Girl
And my point is, again, how does one know if one is not following the brighest angel if one rejects the Church of Jesus on earth?

I don't recall your putting it that way, but now will respond to your question as stated.

First, we Christians are to follow God Himself - not angels, mortals, organizations, etc.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – I John 1:15

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5

Indeed, we area to be leery of spirits who appear as angels of light.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Cor 11:14

We must try the spirits and never bow to them.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. - 1 John 4:1

And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

Finally, as to how one knows he is following God in his religious observances:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. - I John 4:7-8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

And to that I would add a personal observation about mortals: When we love someone, we want what he wants.

If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.

Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does.

So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."

Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40

Loving God would entail wanting all of the fruits of the Spirit because He wants them: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

It would also entail rejoicing in mercy, immersing ourselves in it because He wants it:

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. – Hosea 6:6

But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. – Matthew 12:7

Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matthew 5:7

And it would entail wanting to be rid of everything that is an abomination to Him – whether in the world around us or in ourselves.

These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. – Proverbs 6:16-19

And finally, what may be the most difficult for us to want that God wants since it involves suffering and destruction – that Jesus will come in power and glory and put down the rebellion that began with Satan and spread through Adam to mankind and then make all things new according to His will.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. – Revelation 21:1-7

To God be the glory, not man (or angels), never man (or angels).
2,315 posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 1:49:01 PM by Alamo-Girl



!ABSOLUTELY!
!INDEED!
!BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD!
!BLESSED BE THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC & JACOB!
!BLESSED BE THE SOON COMING KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS!
!MARANATHA!

2,322 posted on 01/31/2011 1:26:41 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: kosta50
It's not really a choice is it? Choosing between all good and all bad is not a choice. If there is no choice there is no free will decision either.

AND THAT, MY FRIEND, IS THE POINT!!!!!

Of course this argument falls flat. It isn't a choice. If you could rationally make a decision to go to heaven or hell you will always choose heaven. No one in their sane mind would choose hell.

Christianity says that faith is salvation and only God can save. Therefore only God can give you faith if he wants to see you saved. You do nothing.

RIGHT AGAIN

The only way for you to make that choice is for God to open up your eyes through faith that He gives you.

2,323 posted on 01/31/2011 1:38:31 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: spirited irish; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD; kosta50; James C. Bennett; YHAOS; MHGinTN; metmom; ...
... the gate to Hell will be slammed and locked from the inside.

Yep. With multiple locks. Then a series of iron bars. Multiple deadbolts. A couple windings of iron chain. And, just in case, pile up all the family furniture and moveables against the door, lest God's Grace should sneak in, in the dead of night, and violate one's "precious" ME....

I love C. S. Lewis. In him I find one of the greatest "doctors of the soul" who ever lived. Among other things!

Anyhoot, I think Henri Bergson's l'âme close — the closed soul — may be a good description of this bolting of "the gates of Hell from the inside."

So, the next question becomes: Why do people "close" their souls against God? This seems to be a burgeoning phenomenon in our post-modern age. But it marks a stark departure from earlier cultural and religious understandings of man in relation to God and to his world, physical and moral.

"Doctor of the Soul" (JMHO FWIW) Lewis undertakes to shed some light on such questions in an addendum to The Screwtape Letters that first appeared in the 1961 edition. This addendum, identified as a "Preface," is the essay "Screwtape Proposes a Toast".

The essay ostensibly is about "education." But it is ever so much more than that!

Let me just give you a sample, and you be the judge:

(The scene is in Hell at the annual dinner of the Tempters' Training College for young devils. The principal, Dr. Slubgob, has just proposed the health of the guests. Screwtape, a very experienced devil, who is the guest of honor, rises to reply:)

...It is customary on these occasions for the speaker to address himself chiefly to those among you who have just graduated and who will very soon be posted to official Tempterships on Earth. It is a custom I willingly obey. I well remember with what trepidation I awaited my own first appointment. I hope, and believe, that each one of you has the same uneasiness tonight. Your career is before you. Hell expects and demands that it should be — as mine was — one of unbroken success. If it is not, you know what awaits you....

[Hint: Failed Tempters wind up as at least hors d'oeuvres at some future Tempters' Training College banquet — and would probably be found "insipid fare" by the guests there. The main insight here is that evil consumes itself. See below for details.]

Your dreaded Principal has included ... an apology for the banquet which he has set before us. Well, gentledevils, no one blames him. But it would be vain to deny that the human souls on whose anguish we have been feasting tonight were of pretty poor quality. Not all the most skillful cookery of our tormenters could make them better than insipid.

Oh, to get one's teeth again into a Farinata, a Henry VIII, or even a Hitler! There was real crackling there; something to crunch; a rage, an egotism, a cruelty only just less robust than our own. It put up a delicious resistance to being devoured. It warmed your inwards when you'd got it down.

Instead of this, what have we had tonight? There was a municipal authority with Graft sauce. But personally I could not detect in him the flavour of a really passionate and brutal avarice such as delighted one in the great tycoons of the last century. Was he not unmistakably a Little Man ... a grubby little nonentity who had drifted into corruption, only just realizing that he was corrupt, and chiefly because everyone else did it? Then there was the lukewarm Casserole of Adulters. Could you find in it any trace of a fully inflamed, defiant, rebellious, insatiable lust? I couldn't. They all tasted to me like undersexed morons who had blundered or trickled into the wrong beds in automatic response to sexy advertisements, or to make themselves feel modern and emancipated, or to reassure themselves about their virility or their "normalcy," or even because they had nothing else to do. Frankly, to me who have tasted Messalina and Casanova, they were nauseating. The Trade Unionist studded with sedition was perhaps a shade better: He had done some real harm. He had, not quite unknowingly, worked for bloodshed, famine, and the extinction of liberty. Yes, in a way. But what a way! He thought of those ultimate objectives so little. Toeing the party line, self-importance, and above all mere routine, were what really dominated his life....

The sort of souls on whose despair and ruin we have — well, I won't say feasted, but at any rate subsisted — tonight are increasing in numbers and will continue to increase.... The "great" sinners, those in whom vivid and genial passions have been pushed beyond the bounds and in whom an immense concentration of will has been devoted to objects, will not disappear. But they will grow rarer. Our catches will be ever more numerous; but they will consist increasingly of trash — trash which we should once have thrown to Cerberus and the hellhounds as unfit for diabolical consumption.....

...The great (and toothsome) sinners are made out of the very same material as those horrible phenomena the great Saints. The virtual disappearance of such material may mean insipid meals for us. But is it not utter frustration and famine for the Enemy? He did not create the humans — He did not become one of them and die among them by torture — in order to produce candidates for Limbo, "failed" humans. He wanted to make Saints; gods; things like Himself....

But do you realize how we have succeeded in reducing so many of the human race to the level of ciphers? This has not come about by accident. It has been our answer — and a magnificent answer it is — to one of the most serious challenges we ever had to face....

That invaluable man Rousseau first revealed it. In his perfect democracy, you remember, only the state religion is permitted, slavery is restored, and the individual is told that he has really willed (though he didn't know it) whatever the Government tells him to do. From that starting point, via Hegel (another indispensable propagandist on our side), we easily contrived both the Nazi and the Communist state. Even in England we were pretty successful. I heard the other day that in that country a man could not, without a permit, cut down his own tree with his own axe, make it into planks with his own saw, and use the planks to build a toolshed in his own garden....

... [Big snip to conclusion]

But now for the pleasantest part of my duty. It falls to my lot to propose on behalf of the guests the health of Principal Slubgob and the Tempters' Training College. Fill your glasses. What is this I see? What is this delicious bouquet I inhale? Can it be? Mr. Principal, I unsay all my hard words about the dinner. I see, and smell, that even under wartime conditions the College cellar still has a few dozen of sound old vintage Pharisee. Well, well, well. This is like old times. Hold it beneath your nostrils for a moment, gentledevils. Hold it up to the light. Look at those fiery streaks that writhe and tangle in its dark heart, as if they were contending. And so they are. You know how this wine is blended? Different types of Pharisee have been harvested, trodden, and fermented together to produce its subtle flavor. Types that were most antagonistic to one another on Earth. Some were all rules and relics and rosaries; others were all drab clothes, long faces, and petty traditional abstinences from wine or cards or the theatre. Both had in common their self-righteousness and the almost infinite distance between their actual outlook and anything the Enemy really is or commands. The wickedness of other religions was the really live doctrine in the religion of each; slander was its gospel and denigration its litany. How they hated each other up there where the sun shone! How much more they hate each other now that they are forever conjoined but not reconciled. Their astonishment, their resentment, at the combination, the festering of their eternally impenitent spite, passing into our spiritual digestion, will work like fire. Dark fire. All said and done, my friends, it will be an ill day for us if what most humans mean by "religion" ever vanishes from the Earth. It can still send us the truly delicious sins. The fine flower of holiness can grow only in the close neighborhood of the Holy. Nowhere do we tempt so successfully as on the very steps of the alter.

I hope folks will read the full riveting text of "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" at the link — which I was so very glad to find and share with you all.
2,324 posted on 01/31/2011 1:46:29 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
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To: betty boop

I LOVE *Screwtape Proposes a Toast*.

Thanks for posting that.


2,325 posted on 01/31/2011 1:51:17 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: betty boop

Well put.

Thx for the ping.


2,326 posted on 01/31/2011 2:00:34 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Amen!

Outta the park and down the road...


2,327 posted on 01/31/2011 2:22:59 PM PST by editor-surveyor (NOBAMA - 2012)
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To: metmom
I LOVE *Screwtape Proposes a Toast*. Thanks for posting that.

You're so welcome dear sister in Christ! Oh but please do read the whole thing if you haven't yet done so. I only gave a "selection."

Say, how much snow do you have on the ground right now, where you are?

Oh my, but I've got over three feet on the ground where I am. I don't have a clue where we will put the snow from the next storm — predicted to be a "biggie!" — the next time we have to shovel out.... Not to mention the worry I have about my roof, under so much icy pressure....

I hope and pray that all is well with you and all your dear ones! Especially the one in California....

In Christ's love and peace, dear sister in Him!

2,328 posted on 01/31/2011 2:52:06 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Rome's whole doctrine contains nothing else than big words and bombast, because it is inconsistent with the majesty of Scripture, the efficacy of the Spirit, the gravity of the prophets, and the sincerity of the apostles. It is an absolute profanation of real theology." - Calvin, Past. Epp. 174

Now I see why Calvin is/has been constantly trashed here! LOL! He sure hits it right out of the ball park on that one! It wasn't until I was out of the RCC and then reading/learning/meditating on God's Word - did I see how deep and dark the RCC is. Then learning of it's history, popes, etc. - what a hell hole.
2,329 posted on 01/31/2011 3:17:38 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: betty boop

We’ve got a couple feet in the yard. Believe me, we’ve been there with the snow and not knowing where to put it.

Heavy snow loads on roofs are no laughing matter. I will be praying that you get some warm to melt it.

This has been an awful winter. And my weather radio has been going off to day with the winter storm warnings for tomorrow night through Wed. It’s bad when they put the warnings up so far in advance with that kind of certainty. That’s one of the criteria I use in determining how prepared to be for the storm.

Are you well stocked up with food , etc?

It’s been in the 70’s in CA. Every once in a while she calls to rub it in.

*sigh*


2,330 posted on 01/31/2011 3:18:46 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos

I don’t make a habit of posting lies.

“I became a Marxist because of my social position...and also...because of the harsh intolerance and Jesuitical discipline that crushed me so mercilessly at the Seminary. “

Source quoted from :Joseph Stalin : a bigographical companion by Helen Rappaport


2,331 posted on 01/31/2011 3:37:50 PM PST by Lera
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks much for the ping Dr.E
:)

We only have one Holy Father , our Abba is in heaven.
Christ’s vicar (representative) on earth doesn’t sit on an early chair in Vatican City , Christ’s vicar is the Holy Spirit.


2,332 posted on 01/31/2011 4:13:37 PM PST by Lera
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To: kosta50
If it is God's will for someone to lose or gain faith, my opinions cannot thwart his will; otherwise God's will is for naught, and men save themselves because they “choose” to believe. Take your pick.

Matthew 26:24

Mark 14:21

Luke 22:22

and

Matthew 18:6

Mark 9:42

Luke 17:2

Take your own pick.

2,333 posted on 01/31/2011 5:10:49 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Cronos
Scripture does not show God predestining anyone to damnation. God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

Affirmative. However, I had read some long, winding and impassible windage from certain Calvinists who claim that 'all' here only means the elected selected elite.

only the followers of Calvin have the unscriptural view denying that the love of God is there for all sinners. No one goes to hell because God pre-damns him.

You mean that God is not in control? Horrors!!!! What is the Calvinist Imitation of Christ, I wonder...

The ones who do, resist the Holy Spirit's work: Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37

You mean that the Holy Spirit does not report to Calvin?

2,334 posted on 01/31/2011 5:21:05 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Alamo-Girl
We Christians do follow the Good Shepherd and being sheep, we are small minded and easily distracted - hence, the rest of my post.
2,335 posted on 01/31/2011 5:22:38 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: count-your-change
By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

They were prosecuted as ersatz Christians who followed another Gospel and were thought to lead others astray. Not persecuted. If your loved one's immortal soul is in danger of eternal damnation, what lengths would you go to? How far would you go to convince them of their error?

2,336 posted on 01/31/2011 5:26:05 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Perhaps Cronos is unaware that employing Latin in the 16th century differs greatly from using Latin in 2011.

In the 16th century, those who employed Latin were the upper crust, the educated and those whose life experiences and understandings have extended beyond their sty.

How has that changed?

2,337 posted on 01/31/2011 5:28:06 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Cronos
Learn from it.

I suspect that Cronos does not take or eschew action at your bidding.

2,338 posted on 01/31/2011 5:29:43 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD
I said that you do not have infallible Scripture in your hands. The Early Church did.

They apparently had it as late as the 4th century. Did the Church lose the scriptures?

Earlier than that. What you hold in your hands is not what the Council approved. For one thing, it is in English. Where is the authority that approved your Bible, Harley? And who?

2,339 posted on 01/31/2011 5:34:50 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: count-your-change
“unopposed”? To oppose cannot be construed as murder and persecution. Jesus “opposed” the Pharisees, he didn’t kill them or try to outlaw them or teach anyone that they should. Paul “opposed” those who would demand a return to Jewish practices, he didn’t try to kill them or organize campaigns against them or demand the secular authorities outlaw them.

Didn't Jesus tell them of their final Judgement? Is that not more final and eternal than killing?

“If you believe in Judgement, how might you think Jesus would have Judged those who would have simply permitted the Waldensians to go to hell in their own handbasket unopposed?”

Jesus said it might earn the Father’s approval as He would call such His children:

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matt. 5:45) The preceding verses may be enlightening to you also!

What do you think that preaching the Gospel and practicing the Beatitudes and Christian life is for? An exercise only? Or is it for the purpose of rescuing others from the grave of hell?

2,340 posted on 01/31/2011 5:39:52 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Lera
Where you not the one who mentioned they were charged with dealing with the reformation ?

If their objective was to deal with the reformers what better way that to teach people to hate them ?

The Jesuits have been accused of teaching Hitler to persecute the Reformers. The Catholic Church suffered far more under the Nazis than the compliant Protestant churches in Germany and in the conquered langs of WWII. Where is the accusation now?

2,341 posted on 01/31/2011 5:42:33 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD
The Latin Bible authorized by the Church is fully acceptable to me.

"Fully acceptable" does not mean that you believe the scriptures to be infallible. In fact, it sounds like a very half hearted response. If my wife got all dressed up and asked me how she looked and I said that she was "fully acceptable", I'm sure she'd slug me.

Your wife is not God. I hope however that you do not tell mine that in person and I will not tell yours that either.

I mean that Scriptures are only meaningful with the interpretation of the Church. The case of the Eunuch is most telling.

You stated in post 2093 the scriptures are not infallible or inerrant. The Church states they are. Would any decree coming from Rome be unacceptable? You are endangering your own soul and in peril of being anathematized.

Negative. I stated that they were not infallible. And I will say that just like the Eunuch, without the Church to interpret, it is as meaningless to anyone as it was to him.

I'm really not trying to put you on the spot. I'm simply pointing out that Catholics really no longer believe the scriptures to be infallible and inerrant. They do not follow the teachings of the early fathers. You are not the first that I've brought up the infallibility of the scriptures to, but you're at least reflective enough to answer this rather interesting question. Most Catholics just clam up. This is an illustration of how one of many doctrines of the Church has changed over the last 500 years.

Scriptures cannot be infallible. Their interpretation can be and is under the Church as Scripture itself illustrates. Do you realize that every major heresy of the first millennium can be defended directly from Scripture - admittedly snippets, but so are many current beliefs.

Catholics should think hard and long about what they actually believe, the inerrant scriptural teachings or someone telling them what to believe.

Even the NT shows the subordination of Jesus to the Father, and without John, almost no indication of the divinity of Jesus - only the status of a super David - the man. Paul did not preach the Trinity in his letters. It is in the Church - who wrote, harmonized, chose and kept publishing and interpreting the Scripture that we must put our trust.

2,342 posted on 01/31/2011 5:51:25 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool
Who is 'we'? If you are referring to yourself, remember that you reject the Church in a great number of your posts.

No, I reject your man made religion

I don't have a religion. I get to follow Jesus.

Jesus put me into His REAL church the second I got saved...

How about you post a photo of your membership card. Are there secret handshakes?

2,343 posted on 01/31/2011 5:54:23 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos
We is given by sad little folks who are enraged that their “church” is made up of just themselves as everyone else thinks it’s for loons.

There are many here whose god is the image in the mirror. They keep it on the hall stand and pat its head for luck when they walk by...

2,344 posted on 01/31/2011 5:55:43 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos; caww
There is no sacred lamb in Egyptian imagery, nor in the egyptian religion

The Ram (Aries) was eventually replaced by a lamb.

2,345 posted on 01/31/2011 5:56:53 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos; caww
My understanding is that sins could be forgiven without shedding of blood, (Lv. 5:11-13) and indeed Jesus forgave sins before He made atonement. (Mt. 2:5) but that such was done under the rubric of the day of atonement, in which both a scapegoat and blood sacrifice was offered, this being commanded, "this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year." (Lv. 16:34)

It is also pointed out that shedding of blood was for sins done in ignorance,which would seem to include being deceived, and without intent to sin, while those who sinned presumptuously, knowingly, willfully by commission or omission, such as Ex. 21:14; Num. 9:13; Dt.17:12; 29:19,20; Josh. 7:21-25, had no atonement, but had to bear their iniquity. (Num. 15:27-31)

This meant facing the consequences, and they were to be utterly (key word) cut off, evidently usually by death, such as the man who blatantly rejected the command to rest on the 7th day sabbath and gathered firewood, and was stoned. (Num. 15:32-35)

Yet terms such as "ignorantly" and "presumptuously" require more, understanding, and we have instances in which enlightened souls who perhaps did knowingly sin (2Sam. 12:13; 1Ki. 21:25-29; Ezra 10) were convicted in heart and able to repent and find mercy, though there were consequences, and in Ezra 10 their conscience appears to have been dulled, and there needs to be judgment in all this.

All this corresponds to the N.T., in which souls are treated as deceived and ignorant before their conversion, (Titus 3:3) and thus the blasphemer and injurious persecutor Saul obtained mercy, because he did it "ignorantly in unbelief." (1Tim. 1:13) 14)

But judgment is according to light, (Lk. 16:48), and so believers are the most accountable, and like as those who would not keep the Passover were cut off, in Hebrews 10:25-39 (cf. Gal. 5:1-4) we are warned that those converts who forsake the (persecuted) Christian fellowship, and go on in impenitent willful sin (including going back into their former faith) have effectively denied and despised the faith, and will be treated as adversaries, for "the Lord shall judge his people."

Ananias and Sapphira are two examples of such accountable souls willfully, knowingly sinning, while Simon, who "believed and was baptized," is implicitly warned of the like in Acts 8:13,18-24 - and gets the message. And John warns about a" sin unto death," (1Jn. 5:16) of which he says "I do not say that he shall pray for it."

Yet in 1Cor. 5:5, a man who is involved in a most blatant sin is delivered over to the devil as a means of restorative chastisement, which worked, and in 1Cor. 11:20-32, believers who hypocritically commemorated the selfless death of Christ by selfishly eating at the love feast while others went hungry - thus effectively failing to recognize other members of the church as part of the body - were also supernaturally chastened unto repentance, though with some dying. And which restorative chastisement is necessary, if they would not be condemned with the rest of the world. (v. 32)

The primitive churches (plural) "walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied, (Ps. 9:31) and believers are to "rejoice with trembling," (Ps. 2:11) as we serve an awe-some and holy God, and so must i seek to better.

2,346 posted on 01/31/2011 6:07:44 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Alamo-Girl
First, we Christians are to follow God Himself - not angels, mortals, organizations, etc.

Very well, but what are you doing? Do you attend a church? Read the Bible? Attend ecumenical meetings? Somewhere there is a leader. Who is that leader and to what are they leading you?

We must try the spirits and never bow to them.

Well good Scotch is good Scotch, I say. But seriously, how do you try the spirits? Is not satan more powerful than any man? It took all that Jesus had to withstand satan, no?

If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.

Are you reducing the condition of love to the fulfillment of whims and making that love condition upon it?

Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does. So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."

Oh boy. Our imitation of Christ involves giving up of ourselves, but we do need to sweat the details. If we worship the Mormon God, for instance, will the Christian God understand that we actually meant well, so please don't hold it against us?

And it would entail wanting to be rid of everything that is an abomination to Him – whether in the world around us or in ourselves.

These include some of the details that we need to sweat. Remember that the Church took 3 centuries to come out with the definition of the Trinity and the Canon. If we reject the Trinity or believe in the Gospel of Thomas, is that small stuff?

And finally, what may be the most difficult for us to want that God wants since it involves suffering and destruction – that Jesus will come in power and glory and put down the rebellion that began with Satan and spread through Adam to mankind and then make all things new according to His will.

I have no idea what you mean here.

2,347 posted on 01/31/2011 6:09:54 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

Yo Dude, I think I see a bit of Jesuit Thinking in your posts.... Loyola U perhaps? or just another proddy seeking the truth?


2,348 posted on 01/31/2011 6:23:38 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Amen


2,349 posted on 01/31/2011 6:32:51 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: Lera
It’s not dangerous at all if you believe this. There is only one God and if you love him and you love your neighbor as yourself you are not going to run around murdering others thinking you are doing his will.

Extremely important and well stated point!

2,350 posted on 01/31/2011 6:33:03 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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